Your Thoughts on Air vs Ground Balance.

[SolLeks]

Hello, A lot of you have probably seen my opinions / rants on the offical forums about air and ground balance. I do try to keep a fairly un biased view about it however since I have about the same amount of time playing medic as I fly (and more so ground stuff if you count the others).

Now, With out me getting into a rant or posting a long lots of stuff that may influence the thread one way or the other, what are your all thoughts on Post GU8 Air and Ground Balance?

If you have ideas to fix it as well, feel free to post them, and If you all want my opinion I can share it via request, but I would like the thread to at least start out with as little bias as possible (I personally am a bit biased to air, but I try not to be as much as possible.)

~~Main GU8 changes that effect air~~

Max Flack and Kenict armor buff
Tank Armor buff.

[Landtank]

My only gripes are that I feel the Skyguard and Bursters roles are reversed.

Make the skyguard a long range AA that can deny a large area of space, and make the burster more close range airspace denial. This would help with rendering too.

The only times I really die in an ESF are when I'm stupid and I don't strafe, aka hovering. Sometimes it gets ridiculous, but usually moving quickly and hugging the ground does it for me.

I mostly drive a tank, and the only time I get killed by an ESF are when I'm an idiot and forget to re-equip my Vanguard shield, or park ontop of a hill alone. I think I've killed more aircraft than I've been killed by.

As infantry I honestly can't remember the last time I got killed by rocket pods and I thought it was unfair, I think it's a perfect balance right now.

[BlaxicanX]

I still hate ESF's. Rocket pods are the only thing in the game that I feel cheated when killed by- moreso than any Max or shotgun.

Still, I don't really know what can be done about it. Air has been nerfed quite a lot over the past few months, their weapons weakened, a massive saturation of anti-air weaponry on the market, a fat bounty placed on most pilots' heads due to the new stacking exp system. The biggest problem that I've noticed is that ESF's are completely ineffectual in any large battles due to all the AA available at any time; sadly, that's actually a respite, because when you're away from a bunch of AA, ESF's are so damn annoying and merciless.

I don't want to see ESF's get nerfed anymore, frankly. They're a step away from becoming totally useless. I'd rather just tolerate how they are now, in that case.

[Chaff]

All-in-all, I think the balance is pretty fair. Bursters only really become effective when you get 3 (or more) going simultaneously. At that point, it becomes pretty brutal if they all key-in on your air vehicle at the same time. Out in the relative open, a decent (or better) ESF pilot will always win a 1-on-1 with a Burster. Really no contest - as it should be. If an ESF falls into a peekaboo game 1-v-1 with a Max popping in & out of a building, the ESF should still prevail, but they're not being a smart pilot at that point.

Skyguards are hardly worth the effort & far harder to hide, evade, or use vs skilled pilot(s)..

[Davelantor]

I am an ESF pilot, so here is my point of view.
I agree ESF is kinda useless in big fights because of the sheer number of AA maxes.

I dont have a problem with lockons, people are very stupid when it comes to using lockon AA's (they start to try locking on the moment they see you half way across the map).

I would say i am a decent pilot, and just for the fun and challange factor, i keep my self close to ground as much as my skills allow, going under structures, trees ... etc. ... so most of the times i get killed is because i am flying on weapons range of unguided rockets, mines and tanks shells. Which is not something you usualy expect from an ESF.

I would say the ESF are balanced enough that its still fun to fly them but you dont get shot down like butterflies on a snow storm if you dont expose your self, sneak around and time your shots and exposures with your flares and use landscape.

My problem is however is with roadkilling. How i play is not for kills, but doing roadkills used to be just fun for me, specially agianst an AA max nests. They have nerfed it so much that you cant roadkill from normal height. Cants describe how stupid it feels when you pass right through a max and he is not even aware.

[Landtank]

All-in-all, I think the balance is pretty fair. Bursters only really become effective when you get 3 (or more) going simultaneously. At that point, it becomes pretty brutal if they all key-in on your air vehicle at the same time. Out in the relative open, a decent (or better) ESF pilot will always win a 1-on-1 with a Burster. Really no contest - as it should be. If an ESF falls into a peekaboo game 1-v-1 with a Max popping in & out of a building, the ESF should still prevail, but they're not being a smart pilot at that point.

Skyguards are hardly worth the effort & far harder to hide, evade, or use vs skilled pilot(s)..

The problem with winning a fight against a burster MAX is that it can be rezzed, and then it's back to square one. If you don't win that fight, even if it's only 10% of the time, you don't get to come back.

[maradine]

I'd like to see the comparative effectiveness of the Skyguard and the Burster swapped. Other than that, I'm very happy on both sides of the equation.

[Ghoest9]

I think the balance is good.

I still wish that ESF were built for A2A intead of A2G
But the current set up doesnt mean infantry have to spend 75% of their efforts in avoiding air which is good.

[phungus]

-Balance is pretty good right now (though AA MAX range does seem a bit too far)

-MAXes in general have become too multipurpose, they are now excellent at AI and AA duty and fair at AV duty with the new MAX AV weapons. I don't really have an issue with the AA MAX from a balance perspective (though the AA MAX is my nemesis since I spend most of my time flying), I just think the MAX in general is too good in general for it's price and I'm starting to see them being spammed everywhere.

-I still think ESF secondaries are not needed and make it impossible to balance ESFs in general. I would be fine if all I had was a rotary and so did everyone else in the sky.

-The rotary is too good all around, it should sacrifice it's AV potency to encourage more deviation in nose guns, also the default nose guns could use a little more AV damage to make them a viable choice.

-I roll my ESF almost exclusively with A2Am and a rotary. AA MAXes get me killed more then half the time when I die in A2A engagements. I don't know if this is a bad thing or not, this is a multiplayer game, it's not about dueling. This is noteworthy though because I really think the current situation with ground AA actually encourages rocket podding.

[Fenrys]

Air zergs are too powerful and there is no counter once they reach critical mass.

Skyguard needs an accuracy and range buff. More projectile speed, less cone of fire, increased maximum detonation range.

Dedicated AARL should lock on faster.

New players need better AA options in their default starter gear.

[wasdie]

As primarily a ground pounder I have no real complaints about the air right now. Every time I step into my reaver I feel I get chewed up by MAXs way too quickly. So maybe those are a bit too powerful.

I haven't been up against a strong air zerg for quite some time. Maybe because when I play I'm with my outfit and we always have a lot of AA.

[Chaff]

The problem with winning a fight against a burster MAX is that it can be rezzed, and then it's back to square one. If you don't win that fight, even if it's only 10% of the time, you don't get to come back.



IN theory, you are absolutely correct. But, you can FLY AWAY & REPAIR YOURSELF. A max can't do this. So, it's more equal than you chose to point out. I'm a shit ass pilot, so I rarely fly. Ergo, I am biased towards infantry.

The point I really wanted to counter you with, is that when I'm outdoors as a Max, I almost never get revived. I'll lay there a good 5 minutes - in the middle of a road - friendly Sundy within spitting distance. It's weird. Usually, when I'm AA I tend to be Lone Wolf. When an ESF does what he should, I have to wait to respawn a Max - just like an ESF, MBT, SUNDY,.... :rolleyes:

Also, I often pull an AA (unplanned) because NO ONE is protecting the Sundy I chose to respawn at. It seems like defending a Sundy is the shortest life span (on avererage) of any scenario I roll as an AA Max. I think when an ESF pilot smells blood bad enough, they too often can not be denied.

If a pilot can avoid tunnel vision rage - they simply afterburner away & repair. As a Max, I feel I obligated to hold-point. A Max is disposable. If I can slow the tide or hold a bit (3 kills before I die), I feel I served my role well enough. Outdoors, I almost never get revived. When I do, It's usually Outfit, and all the regular infantry softies seem to get rezed by medics first. We need Medic & Engie to be revived fully. I think that''s whay Medics rez sofies first & foremeost.

When I die as a Max, I usually have to wait for my timer to replay as a Max - just like a vehicle does.

.

[Lonehunter]

"Air vs Ground" is a pretty broad topic. Without more elaboration of what specific types of combat, vehicles, or equipment you're referring to it's hard to form an opinion.

Only thing I feel strongly about is rear damage to tanks. 90% of my playtime I"m airborne, and maybe 1% in a tank. It's WAY too easy to kill a tank with a single salvo of rockets, and recently all I use it Rotary/AA, and it's still too easy.

[ChipMHazard]

The air vs ground balance seems to be rather hit or miss. Air either dominates or has little space to operate. Ideally air would always have a role to play even when the enemy has a heavy AA presence.
ESFs are so versatile and powerful that they dominate any open battlefield unless there's enough AA present on the ground to more or less completely remove them from the area.

I agree with the Skyguard and Burster MAX needing to be swapped when it comes to effectiveness at range.

I do believe that something has to be done to limit the versatility of the ESF and I do not personally believe that just adding on more choices for the secondary slot, as Higby has mentioned being a future possibility, is going to help in this matter.
There's no real choice required when customizing your ESF.

I'm fine with how Liberators feel when it comes to balance, although again it's very easy to lock them out of a zone when your side has enough AA.

[Tom Peters]

I fly all the freaking time, and I consider myself a pretty good pilot.

Sometimes, I feel like such an asshole because of how easy it is for me to destroy a ground target, be it a vehicle or some poor infantry that found his way into my rocket spam.

Tanks have next to no chance by themselves and pretty much die in one barrage from behind.

[exohkay]

I think ESFs need to be changed a bit.

IMO Rocket pods need to be specialised into AT and AI

I'd like to see afterburners (tanks) given a faster recharge rate.

I think base turrets need a cone of fire improvement / convergence improvement

Skyguards need a big COF improvement and a moderate projectile speed increase

I don't have an issue with Bursters IMO. However if Skyguards become the best counter then perhaps drop the bullet velocity by a few %, perhaps 5% and the damage should fall off slightly IMO (100% at 0m, 90% at 150m)

PPA and Banshee need a bit of a change, they're a bit too niche vs the airhammer.

I'd like to see the Dalton not 1 hit aircraft (ESFs should be the counter to air IMO).

[camycamera]

lock on launchers from infantry are annoying when playing as air.

[OCNSethy]

lock on launchers from infantry are annoying when playing as air.

Lolpods from aircraft are annoying when playing as infantry :)

But seriously, I love my dual bursters but they really need a range reduction. Its silly when I can take out a Gal repairing at the Crown from a platform at the Cross Roads Tower...

[JohnnyRicardo]

I play either as heavy assault, and when im not doing that i roll around in my good old prowler. Striker for the heavy assault and ranger on the prowler. To be completely honest i think the balance is pretty decent these days. I do get some kills with the striker on pilots who doesnt pay attention(those who just fly slowly over you and dont pop the flare.) The ranger on the prowler usually just work to scare away pilots. The trick to stay alive while cruising in a prowler is to always stay on the move, don't stop for 10 minutes and then get annoyed when some pilot decides to rocketpod your sorry ass. It seems like the pilots single out stationary targets completely unaware of anything above them. As it is now it favours skill for both the air unites and the ground units, and that is how it should be.

[Gatekeeper]

Rocket pods are too versatile, and cause a lot of knock-on problems with air/air and air/ground balance. They should be split into specialised AV and AI versions.
The Burster is too powerful compared to the Skyguard - swap their roles and effectiveness, making Bursters a close-range defence option and the Skyguard something for air to truly fear.
Nose gun balance seems to favour rotaries in almost all circumstances. Rebalancing nose guns to be more specialised AI (PPA, etc.), AV (defaults) and AA (rotaries) would help keep things interesting.
Either buff afterburner tanks, nerf/remove afterburners when tanks aren't fitted or replace the tanks with a more useful default (AV rocket pods, perhaps?).
Since these changes would represent an overall weakening of air-to-ground firepower, weaken overall ground-to-air firepower and/or buff survivability of air to maintain the overall balance - but with average higher TTK on both sides.
Ensure A2A missiles are an effective alternative to rocket pods. ESFs with A2A missiles should eat ESFs that are set up for an anti-ground role.

[mrmrmrj]

I think the balance is good. One aircraft vs one ground vehicle without AA is strongly in favor of the aircraft. A good pilot can even defeat a tank with AA if they are sneaky. It takes 2 AA MAXes or 2 Skyguards to consistently defend a small area from one or two aircraft, but if the aircraft coordinate well, the contest can be a draw.

One thing I do not see very much of in PS2 but was quite successful in PS1 is a combination of fighters with a galaxy. Send in the galaxy to reveal all the AA and draw their fire. Then have the A2G pilots come in from behind and clean house.

The bottom line is that good tactics can overcome unfavorable odds.

Disclosure: I only fly for transport.

[Whiteagle]

One thing I do not see very much of in PS2 but was quite successful in PS1 is a combination of fighters with a galaxy. Send in the galaxy to reveal all the AA and draw their fire. Then have the A2G pilots come in from behind and clean house.
I've actually heard the opposite discussed, using Lumifiber ESFs as decoys for a Galaxy drop.

[snafus]

As I have said before the role reversal between the max and sky guard can't come fast enough. The ability to fire safely from a distance and be completely invisible is disgustingly cheap and ruins most pilots experience. I also support the idea of a versified damage types for rocket pods HE/AP. Plus certable fuel tanks with a passive speed boost to allow the A2A ESF to be the true menace to the sky. Though almost all of our vehicle problems come down to shoddy base design which forces SOE to empower infantry since they lived exposed. Once they revamp the bases and implement the new lattice system AA has to be toned down or air will be truly dead.

And from more of my cross server time I have come across a odd pattern of different play styles. While if you dare fly on Connery you will be constantly harassed by a multitude of AA variants and ruthless pilots going for easy kills. While my time on Helios I have seen almost a complete lack of AA and most pilots won't bother you unless you mess with their ground farm. These different play styles for each server make it stupidly difficult for any poor dev to find that perfect balance. As a buff or nerf on AA will break the game on one server but might help another.

I really don't know how they will be able to balance the game with these different metrics. I personally don't think they can really either since it is a totally different story per server. All I can do is hope that AA steps up on other servers so the proper metrics can be shown and help show how unbalanced it currently is. I know many ground pounders will hate the idea of air being relevant again but sorry to say you are not the only aspect of the game either ladies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rr9AyUeQcTM
Shows a little insight on the server difference issue.

[snafus]

I think the balance is good. One aircraft vs one ground vehicle without AA is strongly in favor of the aircraft. A good pilot can even defeat a tank with AA if they are sneaky. It takes 2 AA MAXes or 2 Skyguards to consistently defend a small area from one or two aircraft, but if the aircraft coordinate well, the contest can be a draw.

One thing I do not see very much of in PS2 but was quite successful in PS1 is a combination of fighters with a galaxy. Send in the galaxy to reveal all the AA and draw their fire. Then have the A2G pilots come in from behind and clean house.

The bottom line is that good tactics can overcome unfavorable odds.

Disclosure: I only fly for transport.

Problem with that idea is most outfits on Connery will over pull on the AA and have enough to insta pop any ESF. So you may get one maybe two runs but you won't be able to knock out their AA. Best bet is to just roll from fight to fight and get quick easy kills before everyone with half a brain pulls a burster and G2A launchers on your ass.

[KesTro]

Problem with that idea is most outfits on Connery will over pull on the AA and have enough to insta pop any ESF. So you may get one maybe two runs but you won't be able to knock out their AA. Best bet is to just roll from fight to fight and get quick easy kills before everyone with half a brain pulls a burster and G2A launchers on your ass.

Why do you think that is Snaf? Hah.

[snafus]

Why do you think that is Snaf? Hah.

Becuase all you AA junkies are bullies:mad:

[JohnnyRicardo]

I just love the subtle way pilots want to "balance" this game in order to farm infantry.

[snafus]

I just love the subtle way pilots want to "balance" this game in order to farm infantry.

How does reducing range on Burster max but buffing the sky guard open the flood gates for ground farming? So many people swear the world will end if you can't hit air multiple hexes away while being invisible. You should only be effective around 300 meters which is infantry render distance past that massive reduction of COF and damage. About 500 meters burster max rounds should disappear entirely imo. None of those changes would allow infantry to be farmed so I really don't understand why people get worried about a fair change.

[JohnnyRicardo]

How does reducing range on Burster max but buffing the sky guard open the flood gates for ground farming? So many people swear the world will end if you can't hit air multiple hexes away while being invisible. You should only be effective around 300 meters which is infantry render distance past that massive reduction of COF and damage. About 500 meters burster max rounds should disappear entirely imo. None of those changes would allow infantry to be farmed so I really don't understand why people get worried about a fair change.

Okay, let me give you one scenario. If your team is trapped inside the spawnroom and there is multiple reavers/scythes hovering in order to blast your ass into the other side the second you stick your nose outside the shield. A. You can equip your anti air max with double bursters(which by the way cost 2000 certs if you want the extra burster and extended magazines) to give your team a bit of a chance to push out. B. You can spawn far away in order to get the skyguard and drive into the nest of seagulls from hell(scythes/reavers). Most likely you will focus your fire at one reaver/scythe and might even do some harm to that poor pilot. Do you think this will go unnoticed by his fellow comrades? Unlikely. That mighty skyguard will get torn to pieces by the other pilots, vanguards, magriders, lightnings, heavy assaults and light assaults with c4.

Fair change? NO

I can understand that it's frustrating though, just as it is frustrating when a scythe/reaver fries my pimped out prowler in seconds when i havent even seen heard it in the chaos on the battlefield.

[snafus]

Okay, let me give you one scenario. If your team is trapped inside the spawnroom and there is multiple reavers/scythes hovering in order to blast your ass into the other side the second you stick your nose outside the shield. A. You can equip your anti air max with double bursters(which by the way cost 2000 certs if you want the extra burster and extended magazines) to give your team a bit of a chance to push out. B. You can spawn far away in order to get the skyguard and drive into the nest of seagulls from hell(scythes/reavers). Most likely you will focus your fire at one reaver/scythe and might even do some harm to that poor pilot. Do you think this will go unnoticed by his fellow comrades? Unlikely. That mighty skyguard will get torn to pieces by the other pilots, vanguards, magriders, lightnings, heavy assaults and light assaults with c4.

Fair change? NO

I can understand that it's frustrating though, just as it is frustrating when a scythe/reaver fries my pimped out prowler in seconds when i havent even seen heard it in the chaos on the battlefield.

You didn't address my statement at all. How does nerfing the effective range of the burster max allow infantry to be farmed? If any aircraft are camping your team in a spawn room they are well within 300 meters. And truth be told if you are effectively camped inside a spawn the fight is probably over and you will only succeed in giving free kills to the attacking team. Giving your burster extra range does nothing but give you an unfair advantage to engage an enemy that cannot see you past 300 meters, shorter if the fight is squad or above.

By forcing players to make a tactical decision before heading out the gate they will add depth to the game. Just as I feel ESF pilots should have to choose between AP or HE rockets or fuel tanks to specialize in a combat situation. Why is it fair that a max has so much utility by being able to change from AI/AT/AA by simply going to a terminal or sundy? This is a major game imbalance and hand holding by the devs to impower bad players that need a easy mode aspect of the game to feel empowered. All I ask for is a fair playing field so us fly boys can feel like cool kids and get a fair chance at battles not be insta poofed by invisible AA teams.

[psijaka]

As a dedicated infantry player, I think that balance has swung just a little bit too far in favour of infantry, and MAX dual Bursters are the problem; they are far too effective at long range. As someone said, we shouldn't be able to shoot aircraft off the Crown landing pads from Crossroads; just plain silly.

Solution - limit the range by having the projectiles auto detonate at around 500m (like the Falcon projectiles do). Or if this involves too much graphic processing, just have them disappear after 500m. But keep the damage the same at closer range; to deter farming.

And buff the Skyguard; they are an endangered species! Make them more effective at long range and I might even consider spending come SC!

[Whiteagle]

And buff the Skyguard; they are an endangered species! Make them more effective at long range and I might even consider spending come SC!
You know what's odd, I think I actually found a use for my Skyguard...

...Hunting Harassers...

...Why doesn't the Lightning have a Machine Gun again?

[robocpf1]

I have a small query concerning rocket pods.

At the moment, they're a pretty powerful tool for anti-everything. Air to Ground is dominated by rocket pods, which can be launched at extreme ranges and are incredibly accurate.

What if we kept them where they are damage-wise, but we gave them some arc? They gave arc (or gravity, or some sort of drop) to the Zephyr and Dalton on the Liberator, and that's a dedicated Air-to-Ground platform. It seems kind of unfair that ESFs are allowed to maintain the one-size-fits-all model with rocket pod accuracy and damage.

Add a little bit more skill to using them but reward that skill. I'm tired of seeing ESFs at such high altitudes or long distances scoring ridiculous hits with their pods while I have to arc my shots to large degrees with a Liberator - the aircraft that was designed for Air-to-Ground.

(Edit: With this in mind, a range adjustment or maximum projectile firing distance on the Burster, Skyguard, and other types of AA would be acceptable).

[snafus]

I have a small query concerning rocket pods.

At the moment, they're a pretty powerful tool for anti-everything. Air to Ground is dominated by rocket pods, which can be launched at extreme ranges and are incredibly accurate.

What if we kept them where they are damage-wise, but we gave them some arc? They gave arc (or gravity, or some sort of drop) to the Zephyr and Dalton on the Liberator, and that's a dedicated Air-to-Ground platform. It seems kind of unfair that ESFs are allowed to maintain the one-size-fits-all model with rocket pod accuracy and damage.

Add a little bit more skill to using them but reward that skill. I'm tired of seeing ESFs at such high altitudes or long distances scoring ridiculous hits with their pods while I have to arc my shots to large degrees with a Liberator - the aircraft that was designed for Air-to-Ground.

(Edit: With this in mind, a range adjustment or maximum projectile firing distance on the Burster, Skyguard, and other types of AA would be acceptable).

With the new buffs to armor ESF rocket damage is quite sad now. It takes multiple salvos of rockets to get a kill from high alt and all the tank has to do is move a little and that number goes up drastically. And sadly that stream of rocket we are sending to the ground are a beacon to every AA in the area giving away our position. Rocket pods used to be the pwn everything weapon now they are sub par at best.

[JohnnyRicardo]

You didn't address my statement at all. How does nerfing the effective range of the burster max allow infantry to be farmed? If any aircraft are camping your team in a spawn room they are well within 300 meters. And truth be told if you are effectively camped inside a spawn the fight is probably over and you will only succeed in giving free kills to the attacking team. Giving your burster extra range does nothing but give you an unfair advantage to engage an enemy that cannot see you past 300 meters, shorter if the fight is squad or above.

By forcing players to make a tactical decision before heading out the gate they will add depth to the game. Just as I feel ESF pilots should have to choose between AP or HE rockets or fuel tanks to specialize in a combat situation. Why is it fair that a max has so much utility by being able to change from AI/AT/AA by simply going to a terminal or sundy? This is a major game imbalance and hand holding by the devs to impower bad players that need a easy mode aspect of the game to feel empowered. All I ask for is a fair playing field so us fly boys can feel like cool kids and get a fair chance at battles not be insta poofed by invisible AA teams.

Just as pilots should do a tactical decision before flying over a base. All the clueless pilots get brutalized quite fast, just as clueless infantry/tankdrivers etc get brutalized quite fast. I don't see the better pilots on the other two factions get shot down in seconds. I really favour the range on the max, as it MIGHT keep the pilots on a DISTANCE. Have you ever tried defending a place when 20 scythes arrives? Do you honestly believe that a skyguard or five would actually handle that task? Sure, the max is easy to pull, but in all honesty a plane reach its destination far far faster than any skyguard would and since most experienced pilots survive for a while, they can easily just pull another ESF once they die. A max without the extra burster and extended magazines wouldnt do much harm to a plane, so it's not like a battlerank 3 can just pull a max and blast a liberator straight to hell.

[phungus]

Just as pilots should do a tactical decision before flying over a base. All the clueless pilots get brutalized quite fast, just as clueless infantry/tankdrivers etc get brutalized quite fast. I don't see the better pilots on the other two factions get shot down in seconds. I really favour the range on the max, as it MIGHT keep the pilots on a DISTANCE. Have you ever tried defending a place when 20 scythes arrives? Do you honestly believe that a skyguard or five would actually handle that task? Sure, the max is easy to pull, but in all honesty a plane reach its destination far far faster than any skyguard would and since most experienced pilots survive for a while, they can easily just pull another ESF once they die. A max without the extra burster and extended magazines wouldnt do much harm to a plane, so it's not like a battlerank 3 can just pull a max and blast a liberator straight to hell.


The MAX is simply overpowered. It's not even close, in the last stats released the average SPH of a MAX is nearly double that of ESFs, and the current stats don't even reflect the rocket pod nerf, ESFs will likely be below infiltrators in SPH earning.


MAX units are the best unit for dealing with Infantry threats and Air threats, and with the new AV weapons they are even better then heavies for taking on Armor. The only drawback to a MAX is you can't pilot vehicles as one, but the "driver" class is typically the engineer class anyway, and it only costs 100 infantry resources to get a new one if you need to grab an engy kit to drive something. In terms of combat there is no reason for anything else to exist. Once MLG goes live it'll be interesting to watch as we see Sundees with MAX units doing everything with no other vehicle or class serving any function save for a few engies and medics to support the MAXes.


All the current range of AA MAXes does is allow unorganized zergs to dominate airspace. 5 unorganized AA MAXes that are randomly pulled at any zerg location automatically controls all airspace in a 1km radius from their location. Current AA MAX range makes A2A/air superiority fighters obsolete, that's their main function given their current range.


I get it you don't like air units. You want unorganized infantry to automatically clear the skys as occurs in the current meta game. That makes sense, but just say so. Don't try to say infantry need protection from ESFs that are over three times the distance they can even render and see infantry at, that's just a bald faced lie.

[Rolfski]

I kinda agree with Higby on this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rr9AyUeQcTM#

[Qwan]

I dont know guys to me it seems to be pretty balanced with the burster and the air. From my point of view burster maxes are the infantry mans only line of defence when it comes to defending himself against air. When were assaulting or defending a base and the mossies, and reavers are rocket podding the hell out of us, we go to the AA max for protection. I see this being done in every faction. Even when I fly (Im actually getting better, I managed to take out one of those glowing butterfly's on amerish barely) I notice the barrage of flak maxes clearing the skies with there guns. I mean lets look at it this way, take away the max or just lower the damage a little, there is nothing else to stop the fly boys from rulling the skies. The lightning cant be selected at every base so using this as the go to vehicle is not a good idea. Fly boys would take the time to know which bases have what type of terminals, because at the smaller outpost they are not available. And if you dont have a air defence because some one in your squad doesnt have or didnt bring a lightning, you might as well leave the outpost because I garantee you the air would come in and own it.

But I do have a solution, actually two.
1. They can make the lightning gun free, this way there are two choices when you pull a lightning. (LOL im sure SOE is gonna love that Idea).

2. Make it so that you can get a lightning at any vehicle terminal like they do for the sundy, quad, and harraser. (Because if im a fly boy and I know you cant get a lightning at that outpost I would farm my ass off)

The burster max in a sence is all most ground units have to fend off air, take that away and we have nothing but lock on rockets (those are a fucking joke :rofl:), and drop pods.

[HiroshiChugi]

...Why doesn't the Lightning have a Machine Gun again?

They do, it's called the Kobalt. xD :P

[snafus]

Just as pilots should do a tactical decision before flying over a base. All the clueless pilots get brutalized quite fast, just as clueless infantry/tankdrivers etc get brutalized quite fast. I don't see the better pilots on the other two factions get shot down in seconds. I really favour the range on the max, as it MIGHT keep the pilots on a DISTANCE. Have you ever tried defending a place when 20 scythes arrives? Do you honestly believe that a skyguard or five would actually handle that task? Sure, the max is easy to pull, but in all honesty a plane reach its destination far far faster than any skyguard would and since most experienced pilots survive for a while, they can easily just pull another ESF once they die. A max without the extra burster and extended magazines wouldnt do much harm to a plane, so it's not like a battlerank 3 can just pull a max and blast a liberator straight to hell.

I don't think you quite understand the situation. It isn't always the ability to kill air at times but the ability to engage multiple hexes away with impunity of return fire. We have to leave any kind of fight with AA in it as we will not last if we engage. So you are saying air should just never be allowed to participate in any battle because that is fair for you?

You also have to look at the way AA scales in comparison to air. See air is great in smaller teams of four maybe six max. But once we get past that magical number our airspace is clogged and our ability to engage targets is greatly reduced. While you can place a platoon of bursters in relatively small area and each addition to the team only amplifies the effectiveness.

If the roles were switched burster maxs would still be able to shred any ESF that came close enough to endanger infantry as it should. But not be able to shoot multiple hexes away at aircraft that cannot even render the rounds let alone the maxes shooting at them. While a sky guard will be able to reach out and touch air at longer ranges but in turn actually render to pilots so it is a fair engagement.

And remember you cannot try and balance a game based on new players accessibility to weapons and upgrades. Already on Connery the majority of players have all the toys they could ever want to shoot down air and they use the dam things excessively. And please don't try and pull the good pilots avoid AA just fine as that is quite a load of BS. How about you come on over to Connery and fly near the ARA guys. Tell me how you feel about AA when you are critical and they never even rendered on your screen. All most pilots want is a fair chance to play the game with everyone else. I don't want a easy way to farm you but I should be able to engage ground from time to time during a large fight. Not just be a dancing XP pinnate for all the window lickers to shoot at.

[Chaff]

Before full out carnage breaks out, if air was already present in significant numbers, no amount of AA will successfully break out of a base surrounded by that air. The opposite is also true. If you get enough AA maxes out first, and a few Engies to feed them ...... it will be very very difficult & costly for air to try to overcome it by itself.

It's as balanced as it can be. There are so many differnet engagement scenarios it's twacked to single out one or two scenarios where either side views the other was (or often is) OP. Overall, I expect Pilots to have better K/D ratios than almost every infantry class. The best pilots play air (still). And, it makes the game funner. I have to work hard to kill air - regardless how I do it.

I tend to think of ESFs as Super-LA infantry. They can attack from above - when you're not ready or expecting it. From almost undefensable angles. Their Aircraft supply them with superior armor to any Infantry class. Their weapons are more powerful. They Pown pretty well. They're only sitting ducks if they squat on or near a duck blind at the wrong pond.

The problem I see with Pilots complaints are two-fold. The game has become harder for them, and of course they're gonna complain ..... like some MagWhores who initially cried after they got Nerfed. Two, the game (by popular demand ?) has been tilted a bit (more) to cater to & encourage infantry warfare. Infantry vastly outnumber Aircraft. When a BIG group of softies quickly pulls large quantities of AA (Dual Burster Maxes especially) ..... all-of-a-sudden, it's not so fun for air.

Even after the buffs & nerfs - I have seen air completely shutdown a base - too much rocket spam and other ground fire make it impossible to reclaim even the tiniest portion of real estate from which even the largest group of AA Maxes can clear the Air from. If you can't get more than 5 meters clear of a doorway or opening - you ain't gonna kill nuttin.

A2G & G2A balance is not perfect. I like how it can swing back & forth between either extreme as quickly as it does. I see this happen almost every night. To see the dominance flip back & forth between air and ground makes me feel they have the balance about right.
.

[JohnnyRicardo]

I don't think you quite understand the situation. It isn't always the ability to kill air at times but the ability to engage multiple hexes away with impunity of return fire. We have to leave any kind of fight with AA in it as we will not last if we engage. So you are saying air should just never be allowed to participate in any battle because that is fair for you?

You also have to look at the way AA scales in comparison to air. See air is great in smaller teams of four maybe six max. But once we get past that magical number our airspace is clogged and our ability to engage targets is greatly reduced. While you can place a platoon of bursters in relatively small area and each addition to the team only amplifies the effectiveness.

If the roles were switched burster maxs would still be able to shred any ESF that came close enough to endanger infantry as it should. But not be able to shoot multiple hexes away at aircraft that cannot even render the rounds let alone the maxes shooting at them. While a sky guard will be able to reach out and touch air at longer ranges but in turn actually render to pilots so it is a fair engagement.

And remember you cannot try and balance a game based on new players accessibility to weapons and upgrades. Already on Connery the majority of players have all the toys they could ever want to shoot down air and they use the dam things excessively. And please don't try and pull the good pilots avoid AA just fine as that is quite a load of BS. How about you come on over to Connery and fly near the ARA guys. Tell me how you feel about AA when you are critical and they never even rendered on your screen. All most pilots want is a fair chance to play the game with everyone else. I don't want a easy way to farm you but I should be able to engage ground from time to time during a large fight. Not just be a dancing XP pinnate for all the window lickers to shoot at.

I think I understand the situation perfectly well. It seems like every single time you attack a base every single infantry on the opposition force spawn every available AA max. They do not worry about taking out those tanks, sunderers, harassers, lightnings and infantry. In most fights there is multiple enemies to engage, so the responsibility to take out air is given to a few members. If they form an air ZERG though it's nearly damn impossible to defend against that, and if half the platoon spawn AA maxes that will give room for the opposing infantry to push further into the base. I don't know how the pilots are on your server, but on ceres there are plenty of really good enemy pilots. When I take one of those down from time to time you can bet that i get a fine ass extreme mance kill, so I guess they managed to do some nasty harm before they died. You shouldnt be able to just fly into a base where there is loads of anti air present and expect that you should come out it alive. If you are that naive you deserve to be that dancing XP bonus.

Do you think that this is different from lets say.. driving a prowler?

I drive quite alot around in my prowler. Do you think I can just drive into enemy territory expecting not to get shredded by other tanks, mines, heavies, c4, engineers with AV turrets(which by the way is impossible to see at times), ESF(the ranger is one hell of a lousy flak cannon) and turrets on the base? Meh. I have to be careful, maybe even flank for quite some bit in order to to some harm. When I from time to time get restless and think "fuck it, lets just go for it" i get killed. Every time. And guess what? I deserve it.

This game is pretty much based on numbers, so if you form an air zerg you will pretty much dominate the battlefield, just as a tank zerg would kick some serious ass. Some comrades will surely fall, but in the end if your empire mange to take that damn post it's all that matters.

[CrankyTRex]

This game is pretty much based on numbers, so if you form an air zerg you will pretty much dominate the battlefield, just as a tank zerg would kick some serious ass. Some comrades will surely fall, but in the end if your empire mange to take that damn post it's all that matters.

That's very true, and also a big part of the overall problem.

In this particular balancing act, the issue is that it's much easier to have an AA zerg form than an air one due to the various advantages infantry have in that regard (there are always more of them to begin with, they can spawn almost anywhere, be revived, can all switch classes on a dime at terminals, don't have the added timers to deal with, etc.)

Ultimately, the issue is that the map design allows air power (and pretty much all power for that matter) to shut people into spaces as tight as spawn rooms, and the spawn rooms themselves are easy targets to concentrate fire on.

Infantry needs to be able to come out from too many places for air power to effectively shut them in like that alone. Then we could bring the AA back to where it belongs, a shorter-range deterrent until your own air power can arrive. At least then those of us who prefer A2A combat would have something effective to do.

[Whiteagle]

They do, it's called the Kobalt. xD :P
No no no, you are confusing MBTs with Lightnings...

...Common mistake really...

Before full out carnage breaks out, if air was already present in significant numbers, no amount of AA will successfully break out of a base surrounded by that air. The opposite is also true. If you get enough AA maxes out first, and a few Engies to feed them ...... it will be very very difficult & costly for air to try to overcome it by itself.

It's as balanced as it can be. There are so many differnet engagement scenarios it's twacked to single out one or two scenarios where either side views the other was (or often is) OP. Overall, I expect Pilots to have better K/D ratios than almost every infantry class. The best pilots play air (still). And, it makes the game funner. I have to work hard to kill air - regardless how I do it.

I tend to think of ESFs as Super-LA infantry. They can attack from above - when you're not ready or expecting it. From almost undefensable angles. Their Aircraft supply them with superior armor to any Infantry class. Their weapons are more powerful. They Pown pretty well. They're only sitting ducks if they squat on or near a duck blind at the wrong pond.

The problem I see with Pilots complaints are two-fold. The game has become harder for them, and of course they're gonna complain ..... like some MagWhores who initially cried after they got Nerfed. Two, the game (by popular demand ?) has been tilted a bit (more) to cater to & encourage infantry warfare. Infantry vastly outnumber Aircraft. When a BIG group of softies quickly pulls large quantities of AA (Dual Burster Maxes especially) ..... all-of-a-sudden, it's not so fun for air.

Even after the buffs & nerfs - I have seen air completely shutdown a base - too much rocket spam and other ground fire make it impossible to reclaim even the tiniest portion of real estate from which even the largest group of AA Maxes can clear the Air from. If you can't get more than 5 meters clear of a doorway or opening - you ain't gonna kill nuttin.

A2G & G2A balance is not perfect. I like how it can swing back & forth between either extreme as quickly as it does. I see this happen almost every night. To see the dominance flip back & forth between air and ground makes me feel they have the balance about right.
.
This is probably the right view to have, the issue isn't balanced yet but the fact that it can tip either way suggest they are close.

Thing is, probably BOTH MAXes and ESFs are going to get hit with the Nerf Bat before its over, Bursters getting a Range Nerf while Rocket Pods get a Direct Damage nerf.
Hopefully they'll buff Rocket Pod Splash and Skyguard Range to compensate, but you never know.

You shouldnt be able to just fly into a base where there is loads of anti air present and expect that you should come out it alive. If you are that naive you deserve to be that dancing XP bonus.

Do you think that this is different from lets say.. driving a prowler?
Yeah, this is honestly where I loose sympathy for Flyboys; If I know how to stay in the Air for ten minutes how can a "Dedicated Pilot" not?
If you were as good a pilot as you THINK you are, I would imagine you'd have the foresight to check where the enemy was concentrated on the map so you'd know WHERE you need to fly with caution...

Too often on Waterson we Terran's will be fighting Vanu on one side of the map when a random Reaver flies over head, despite the NC still being on the opposite end of the Continent!

Hell on our server the Vanu started trolling us by setting up a HUGE AA Nest on the plateau above the Terran Warpgate, but once we caught on our Zerg just started Tank Rushing out instead of Air Swarming.
I think they've tried to do the same thing now that were at the North Gate, but it's far less effective only using the Crater Firing Range.

Ultimately, the issue is that the map design allows air power (and pretty much all power for that matter) to shut people into spaces as tight as spawn rooms, and the spawn rooms themselves are easy targets to concentrate fire on.

Infantry needs to be able to come out from too many places for air power to effectively shut them in like that alone. Then we could bring the AA back to where it belongs, a shorter-range deterrent until your own air power can arrive.
Well I agree that Infantry needs more outlets to prevent easy Spawn Suppression, but I still think AA should be lethal to Aircraft...

At least then those of us who prefer A2A combat would have something effective to do.
This is actually one of the reasons I want to see Intercontinental Oceans...

A lot more room for Air-to-Air Combat when there isn't much Ground to stand on.

[CrankyTRex]

Well I agree that Infantry needs more outlets to prevent easy Spawn Suppression, but I still think AA should be lethal to Aircraft...


Well yeah it should, for stupid pilots that loiter at close range. Unfortunately the flight model lets ESFs scoot off when they shouldn't if they get caught doing that.

At the same time, you really don't need to kill aircraft unless you're concerned about XP and K/D more than the tactical value. Driving it off to repair is effectively same as an infantry death, since it's probably about as long to fly away, repair, and come back as it is for infantry to respawn and get back where they are.


This is actually one of the reasons I want to see Intercontinental Oceans...

A lot more room for Air-to-Air Combat when there isn't much Ground to stand on.

I am for this. :thumbsup: I just don't expect it any time soon.

[Whiteagle]

At the same time, you really don't need to kill aircraft unless you're concerned about XP and K/D more than the tactical value. Driving it off to repair is effectively same as an infantry death, since it's probably about as long to fly away, repair, and come back as it is for infantry to respawn and get back where they are.
Well no actually, we AA guys need an Aircraft kill at least every so often...
Admittedly the Experiance Bonus for causing Damage has helped a bit, but if we don't down a bird or two we get pretty damned pissed off about spending our money/certs on a "Deterrent..."

I am for this. :thumbsup: I just don't expect it any time soon.
Indeed, they don't even have the Warpgates working properly yet, so I don't know how they are expecting to handle inter-map vehicle transfer...

...Amphibious BFRs would rock though...

[Moddakk]

O hi solleks
-Valraan

[Gatekeeper]

Thing is, probably BOTH MAXes and ESFs are going to get hit with the Nerf Bat before its over, Bursters getting a Range Nerf while Rocket Pods get a Direct Damage nerf.
Hopefully they'll buff Rocket Pod Splash and Skyguard Range to compensate, but you never know.

I'd be all in favour of the Burster/Skyguard changes - but why would you nerf direct damage on rocket pods and buff their splash? Do we really need to make them even better at spawn-camping?

Personally I'd nerf their splash to make them weaker against infantry and force them into a specialised AV role. I see no reason for rocket pods to be as versatile as they are now, and I'd much prefer to see ESFs in a dynamic tank-hunter role than as hover-spamming spawn-campers.

[Whiteagle]

I'd be all in favour of the Burster/Skyguard changes - but why would you nerf direct damage on rocket pods and buff their splash? Do we really need to make them even better at spawn-camping?

Personally I'd nerf their splash to make them weaker against infantry and force them into a specialised AV role. I see no reason for rocket pods to be as versatile as they are now, and I'd much prefer to see ESFs in a dynamic tank-hunter role than as hover-spamming spawn-campers.
...For some reason they are making Rocket Pods Anti-Infantry...

No fucking clue WHY, considering they seem to insta-gib me when I'm on the Ground in Public Test, but apparently Tanker's whined harder...

[Gatekeeper]

...For some reason they are making Rocket Pods Anti-Infantry...

No fucking clue WHY, considering they seem to insta-gib me when I'm on the Ground in Public Test, but apparently Tanker's whined harder...

:cry:

Buffing rocket pods versus infantry will just lead to yet another round of nerfs and buffs as 90% of the player-base finds themselves constantly farmed by rocket-spammers.

I would much rather see both A2G and G2A damage nerfed, make aircraft a bit more survivable but stop them from WTF insta-killing ground targets when they do manage to make it past all the AA.

[Whiteagle]

:cry:

Buffing rocket pods versus infantry will just lead to yet another round of nerfs and buffs as 90% of the player-base finds themselves constantly farmed by rocket-spammers.

I would much rather see both A2G and G2A damage nerfed, make aircraft a bit more survivable but stop them from WTF insta-killing ground targets when they do manage to make it past all the AA.
Well I realised I mis-worded what I figured good Anti-Infantry Buff would be, increasing the Splash Radius so it's more effective at AoE and not the Splash DAMAGE to make it better at gibbing.
So larger explosions, but not necessarily more powerful ones...

I do think new AT Secondaries give room for more Faction Specific Flavor though. (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?p=919221&postcount=4)

[CrankyTRex]

Well no actually, we AA guys need an Aircraft kill at least every so often...
Admittedly the Experiance Bonus for causing Damage has helped a bit, but if we don't down a bird or two we get pretty damned pissed off about spending our money/certs on a "Deterrent..."


Well again, the only reason that would be is if you care about the kill XP or the K/D more than the tactical value of making that aircraft leave, or need the satisfaction of something going pop to use a weapon. If you know you're pulling it out as a deterrent, then there's no reason to be pissed off so long as it has the power to make that aircraft leave. You also don't necessarily need to spend anything to use AA, given the various free AA options available.

But as I said, I have no problem with it being strong enough to take out the stupid people acting stupidly. If somebody is going to hover in front of your base trying to farm it, they should be easily punished for that behavior. If somebody is going to be all alone in enemy territory with a ton of opposition on the ground, that's on them too. I just don't think that is something that can be done easily because the aircraft do not have the normal disadvantages of a hovering aircraft that will stop them from running away if they start taking damage.

[Chaff]

^
STOP.
What a pile of horse shit. You MUST be a pilot with that load of crap.

".....well, my Max should never really die ..... unless you pilots (or any opponent, actually) only care about XP or K/D ...... you get the tactical advantage (err, VALUE) of making me leave to repair......"

"...... if my shields get too low .... I have to run a few hundred (occasionally thousands) of meters, & then wait around for a damn engie .... there's no need or advantage to infantry, or ESFs, or any vehicle being able to kill a max .... unless you're just a selfish stat whore .... forcing me to retreat and repair should always be enough."
really ?

STFU

If you're going to try to Jedi MindTrick us with a 100% selfish and self-serving myopic statement, you'll have to do better. May the Farce be with you.
.

[Whiteagle]

^
STOP.
What a pile of horse shit. You MUST be a pilot with that load of crap.

Yeah man, people don't buy weapons just to look useful, they need to actual be able to KILL!
Do I need to post my old Comic again?

[ThatGoatGuy]

so it's not like a battlerank 3 can just pull a max and blast a liberator straight to hell.

I don't think you understand balance my friend. A battle rank three, or battle rank 50 for that matter, should be able to merely waltz up to an infantry terminal, pull a burster max, and totally shred something in the air. One player should not have the ability to take on something that should be tactically stronger. That being said, I think that the burster maxes are OP right now, and believe that with the ESF health buff (hopefully) that it will raise the chances of an ESF versus a burster max. It should take coordination and team work to take on aircraft, not a single infantry terminal and a burster arm.

[GeoGnome]

I do not fly often. Most of the time I try to fly ESFs to clear ground targets, but I am not a great pilot by any means, it's one of those things I just need to work on. And when I use Liberators, I almost exclusively use them as a transport disposable vehicle, because ESFs are so weak there is no point.

So this is from the perspective of someone who is more often on the Receiving end of ESF fire.

Currently Rocketpods are a little too weak against infantry. Against tanks and whatnot I think they are fine. When it comes to ways to buff aircraft, I would say as a knee jerk reaction, that ESFs need to be buffed against infantry... BUT, that is a kneejerk reaction and it is straight wrong. As has been said numerous times now, ESFs are wildly bipolar. Either they are completely ineffective and die quickly, or they are grossly overpowered, depending exclusively on how much AA you have available. They have 1 standard loadout that varies only in how many certs you put into your ESF, and really need some kind of middle grounding all around. Buffing ESF vs. Infantry damage would only make the existing bipolar existance of ESFs, worse. Simply put, if you boost AI damage from ESFs using Rocketpods, they will dominate even more in those situations where less AA is around.

When it comes to AA, I don't see a huge problem, I think ESFs should be made more powerful before AA would be touched. The issue is, that if you range cap projectiles from AA, or do something to influence how good it is against long range air targets, you'll get Liberators sitting at the height ceiling raining death on everyone, with no adequate counter. Between bursters and Skyguards, I use both. Skyguards get to be very good after you have upgraded them, I think that rather than buffing damage or range, or even COF, you should simply give them some kind of tracking computer upgrade. I mean it's a TANK with a mounted AA battery, it should have an advantage over Bursters. Looking a burster max, those are fine.

With ESFs, a small boost in health (Something akin to the boost they did to tanks) would make some sense. The issue isn't as much their health though, as much it is their Roll. ESFs contributing to AA thick areas is a tough one. Currently it means you let your ESF sulk around and sneak behind something, hitting it with a salvo of Rocketpods before it is shredded by the 45 things hidden around that hate all ESFs with a flaming passion. I would say that something like a bomb would be good, so that they could fly by quickly, drop ordinance and get out. I'd love to see ESFs utilized in some kind of painted Airstrike weapon.

They also need seperate loadouts and more specialized options. Maybe some AP torpedo like weapons for tanks/galaxies/sunderers/libs, maybe some AA rocket clusters that fire more missles in rapid succession, tracking for like 1s (Meaning they would steer to correct for a moment, and then fly straight) that only lock onto enemy aircraft (Striker of the air... but without full lockon), what about incindiary bombs for AI (Napalm) that are wide AOE but lower damage so they can't be abused, thermite bombs for AV, painting targets for airstrike using other classes to be carried out by ESFs.... etc. etc. etc.

[Obstruction]

i'm almost fine with the way it is.


you have to be a real scrub to die to 1 AA source
being ambushed by multiple AA units is still not 100% lethal
lethal AA requires coordination and resources not spent elsewhere
lethal AA dedicates units to stand by or risk being unprepared
despite extreme exposure, air units can rapidly engage and disengage



you have to be a real scrub to die repeatedly to the same air unit
ground units have faster and more readily available spawn sources including field rez
ground units have MANY ways to attack air, most of which are complimentary and incentivize teamwork via lucrative exp sources
air units very often cannot get support from friendly units, yet require support to scale survivability at the same rate as the size of the battle
air units risk the most extreme exposure and widest lack of cover, despite being able to rapidly disengage


the only real complaint i have is that all of you little ants pull your pussy max and sit behind the force field.

i would like to see at least one way forcefields for flak and rockets, so that cowards have to step out to shoot and can't just stack 4+ invincible AA sources.

i would also support fully one way spawn shields for all projectiles and infantry units. if the problem is cover and access to resupply and class change, then it should be addressed with some base design changes to reflect that without allowing the above to remain a viable playstyle.

someone in some thread i didn't read was talking about underground spawn rooms that feed you out into a small fortifiable building with roof access and some air cover and that sounds fair to me.

a max that makes effective use of doorways to supply and repair under cover is one thing. a pussy outfit that stacks AA where they can openly fire without risk is another.

[JohnnyRicardo]

I don't think you understand balance my friend. A battle rank three, or battle rank 50 for that matter, should be able to merely waltz up to an infantry terminal, pull a burster max, and totally shred something in the air. One player should not have the ability to take on something that should be tactically stronger. That being said, I think that the burster maxes are OP right now, and believe that with the ESF health buff (hopefully) that it will raise the chances of an ESF versus a burster max. It should take coordination and team work to take on aircraft, not a single infantry terminal and a burster arm.

Haha. You make it sound like a single burster arm shred aircrafts to pieces in a matter of nanoseconds. Really? Even with two bursters and extended magazines its not like you shred things to pieces in seconds if the pilots have a decent set of skills. If that ESF is insanely naive and hover in front of you, well then he deserve to die.

"It should take coordination and team work to take on aircraft, not a single infantry terminal and a burster arm."

Really? So if two friends get together to have some fun they should just accept that they are the personal meatgrinder for pilots?

"One player should not have the ability to take on something that should be tactically stronger."

;) When I get bored of running around as infantry I usually spawn a prowler. A prowler can be taken out by one single heavy assault, light assault with c4, mines, AV turrets and the brand new AV gun for the max(oh noes). Well, when one of these buggers outsmart me and kill me i honestly believe i deserve to die. If i dont find cover and repair myself once i get hit by a phoenix will most likely die very fast. If i just stay still at the same place for a while and don't pay attention I deserve to die of that sneaky light assault blowing me up with c4. I deserve to die of that new AV weapon for the max.(Oh dear lord, they can obtain them at every terminal.) Since you obviously mean that one player shouldnt be able to take on something tactically stronger I guess you don't just mean that this is for the pilots? Should we buff the prowlers, magriders, vanguards, harassers and lightnings as well or maybe remove some of their ability to take out heavy vehicles? If not, you are not really objective. I however think the balance is fine. When I drive around like a moron I say salut to the enemy. XP well deserved!


"I don't think you understand balance my friend."
Maybe we just have very different opinions on what balance should be, but nevertheless that is one condescending statement.

Let me offer one to you also : With that KD ratio you obtain I guess you should have a liberator/esf with 100% health regen in two seconds after taking damage and the ability to drop nukes in order to take out that dreadful anti air max you hate so much.

[CrankyTRex]

^
STOP.
What a pile of horse shit. You MUST be a pilot with that load of crap.

".....well, my Max should never really die ..... unless you pilots (or any opponent, actually) only care about XP or K/D ...... you get the tactical advantage (err, VALUE) of making me leave to repair......"

"...... if my shields get too low .... I have to run a few hundred (occasionally thousands) of meters, & then wait around for a damn engie .... there's no need or advantage to infantry, or ESFs, or any vehicle being able to kill a max .... unless you're just a selfish stat whore .... forcing me to retreat and repair should always be enough."
really ?

STFU

If you're going to try to Jedi MindTrick us with a 100% selfish and self-serving myopic statement, you'll have to do better. May the Farce be with you.
.

Yeah man, people don't buy weapons just to look useful, they need to actual be able to KILL!
Do I need to post my old Comic again?

Missed the whole second paragraph, and the point, I see.

EDIT (didn't have a chance to fully elaborate on this response yesterday):

As an A2A pilot when I'm actually in the sky, my entire purpose in the game is to protect infantry from the very planes they complain about. So I have no interest in being an invincible aircraft that can farm ground people at will, and I'm perfectly happy to have AA assisting me in taking out enemy aircraft.

As I said, I do not think aircraft should be invincible. They just happen to occupy a unique space in the game where they are the only unit that can be effectively taken out of a battle for a time without actually killing them. There is no forcing a Max or an infantry player to retreat completely out of a battle to repair like that. They're not fast enough to escape, the terrain impedes them, and they can be healed or rezzed on the spot so there isn't any incentive to do so in the first place. An aircraft can and will run completely out of the area to fix itself, and will be gone for a similar time period to a dead infantry member. This is just as true for me shooting at it as a pilot as you shooting at it from the ground.

They added XP for damaging aircraft because it reflects this very thing. Now not only is your AA doing its job tactically, you're getting XP for it, so there's little reason to be pissed if you're not getting the finisher most of the time so long as you are driving the aircraft away.

The focus on getting the kill has led to giving infantry AA, particularly bursters, some absurd ranges because it's the only way you can keep hitting the target long enough to kill it before it escapes. That has resulted in some really wild swings wherein it only takes a couple of people to go from mild harassment to a complete lock down of a huge section of the sky. In addition, it marginalizes A2A pilots and encourages them to play A2G instead, which leads to more spam, and more calls for AA, leading to more issues, etc.

So long as we are stuck with this particular flight model combined with a few other factors like base design, it is incredibly difficult to have it both so that AA is going to reliably kill aircraft that aren't complete idiots and not end up with the scaling issues and the marginalization of A2A, specifically because the ESF's ability to hover and run at no penalty to itself does not permit it.

[SolLeks]

I thank everyone for their opinions in this thread even though I only agree with about half yall.

I still don't understand why people are opposed to bursters / G2AM only being able to harass air out to infantry render distance, thus doing their job of protecting infantry and letting A2A pilots have some much needed breathing room but that is just me.

So many things have changed in this game since launch, I don't think it will ever go back to how it was then even with a burster nerf.

[Whiteagle]

I still don't understand why people are opposed to bursters / G2AM only being able to harass air out to infantry render distance, thus doing their job of protecting infantry and letting A2A pilots have some much needed breathing room but that is just me.

So many things have changed in this game since launch, I don't think it will ever go back to how it was then even with a burster nerf.
I certainly hope not...

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/Whiteagle/AAcomic.jpg

[SolLeks]

I certainly hope not...

[IMG]

You know that if you are not rendered, you can not be hurt. Why should you be able to hurt me when I can not hurt you? (or see you)

Also, I am not talking about doing anything to the other AA weapons, if anything we would need to buff skygaurds...

Bursters are OP imo, they need to be toned down. even more so after the tank armor buff.