Obscure and inconsistent design choices

[Gatekeeper]

Reading the thread about the new tutorial, I had a bit of a rant about how there are a lot of strange/obscure/inconsistent design choices in PS2 that make it harder for people to learn the game.

At Shogun's suggestion I'm reposting my list here (rather than hijacking the tutorial thread any more!):


Every class has a special ability on F. Except LA who has it on space. And Engineer, who doesn't have one.
Every class has a special class-defining 'tool' in slot 3. Except for LA, who doesn't.
Engineer has ammo drop in a particular slot, but can replace this with other options - like health kits. Except they can still drop ammo even if it's been replaced by something else, by using their turret after pressing b. Intuitive stuff! :D
Glowing shields can be shot through from the inside, but not in from the outside. And they block grenades, but not rockets. Most of the time. Except sometimes they can't be shot through at all, and sometimes they can be shot through both ways. Except not by vehicles.
Every default weapon is solid and useful, the other weapons you can unlock are sidegrades. Except for ESF fuel tanks, which aren't weapons at all - and can be upgraded to kill-everything rocket pods.
Drivers also get the vehicle's main gun, because they paid the resources to acquire it and the certs or SC to unlock its weapons. Except for in Liberators, Galaxies, Sunderers and Harassers, which all require a team-mate to fire the main gun(s).
MAXes can't drive or gun vehicles, or man turrets. Except for Sunderer turrets, which are ok.
To heal someone, you equip your healing tool and press fire. To repair something, you equip your repair tool and press fire. To hack something, you press E on it. There is no hacking tool.
Scopes are perfectly steady and don't sway. Unless you go over a certain magnification. But then there's a special button to make them stop swaying for a bit.
To blow up vehicles, you shoot them. To blow up turrets, you shoot them. To blow up generators, you go up to them and hold E, and then wait for the timer to run down.
When a vehicle or turret explodes it will hurt you a bit if you're next to it, but probably won't kill you. When a generator explodes it will go up violently enough to kill everyone nearby.
Grenades are marked by a special bright-red warning icon. C4 and mines are not - although they can still be deployed in the middle of a fight.
Putting down an ammo pack takes a second or two, appears right at your feet and is blocked by anyone moving through the area. Mines and C4 can be thrown some distance and appear instantly.


I'm sure there's a lot more that I'm missing, but you get the idea. Many of these are things that I've seen players not know about, even after playing the game for months (or since launch in some cases) - others are just missed opportunities to make the game feel more consistent, logical or balanced.

Agree? Disagree? What strange design choices really get your goat, and what can be done to fix them?

[Shogun]

thanks! ;)

ok, so let´s see what could be done about some of them:

1. no idea if it´s a real problem that the la has no use of the f key. using the jetpack with the jump key seems intuitive. maybe do a double bind so f and spacebar do the same for la.

1b. (i still think the engineer needs a complete overhaul, but for now: ) make the ammobox the engineer F key ability. F is free on the engineer, and the turret is double-used, so keep it in line with the other classes.

2. there might be some tool for the la later on?

3. see 1b. ammobox needs to be always equipped and be used by F key.

4. fix the shields. make them ALL blocking every enemy damage and let through every friendly fire. no matter if fire comes from inside or outside. i think that´s what it was meant to be but it is only bugged.

5. no idea, i never used a ESF due to bugged joystick support

6. easy, make mbt dedicated driver! (and do a balancerun of course)

7. block sunderer turret seats for maxes. let them sit in the passengerseats but not the gunnerseats. i consider this a bug, not a feature.

8. introduce a hacking tool. there may be other uses for this thing as well later on.

9. put sway info on scope descriptions and mention the hold breath functionality in the tutorial

10. i would say, make the gen a hp beast and make it only vulnerable to explosions of any kind. but in those small containers gens would be vulnerable to vehicle spam. thoughts?

11. i don´t see a problem. consider the generators as running on some dangerous energy.

12. bullets aren´t marked with glowing symbols as well. i think this is ok. nades would be overpowered because you can drop them instantly. to drop c4 or mines you have to change weapon.

13. fix the drop mechanics and make them all the same! it is totally annoying that dropping ammo NEVER works at the first try.

[NewSith]

At Shogun's suggestion I'm reposting my list here (rather than hijacking the tutorial thread any more!):


Every class has a special ability on F. Except LA who has it on space. And Engineer, who doesn't have one.
Every class has a special class-defining 'tool' in slot 3. Except for LA, who doesn't.
Engineer has ammo drop in a particular slot, but can replace this with other options - like health kits. Except they can still drop ammo even if it's been replaced by something else, by using their turret after pressing b. Intuitive stuff! :D
Glowing shields can be shot through from the inside, but not in from the outside. And they block grenades, but not rockets. Most of the time. Except sometimes they can't be shot through at all, and sometimes they can be shot through both ways. Except not by vehicles.
Every default weapon is solid and useful, the other weapons you can unlock are sidegrades. Except for ESF fuel tanks, which aren't weapons at all - and can be upgraded to kill-everything rocket pods.
Drivers also get the vehicle's main gun, because they paid the resources to acquire it and the certs or SC to unlock its weapons. Except for in Liberators, Galaxies, Sunderers and Harassers, which all require a team-mate to fire the main gun(s).
MAXes can't drive or gun vehicles, or man turrets. Except for Sunderer turrets, which are ok.
To heal someone, you equip your healing tool and press fire. To repair something, you equip your repair tool and press fire. To hack something, you press E on it. There is no hacking tool.
Scopes are perfectly steady and don't sway. Unless you go over a certain magnification. But then there's a special button to make them stop swaying for a bit.
To blow up vehicles, you shoot them. To blow up turrets, you shoot them. To blow up generators, you go up to them and hold E, and then wait for the timer to run down.
When a vehicle or turret explodes it will hurt you a bit if you're next to it, but probably won't kill you. When a generator explodes it will go up violently enough to kill everyone nearby.
Grenades are marked by a special bright-red warning icon. C4 and mines are not - although they can still be deployed in the middle of a fight.
Putting down an ammo pack takes a second or two, appears right at your feet and is blocked by anyone moving through the area. Mines and C4 can be thrown some distance and appear instantly.



Special Ability does not imply the ability being an active one. You are wrong.
LA needs a special tool and I'm sure it will come as a part of the class revamp. You are correct. But truth be told, LA's ability is way too effective by itself, to add something that furthers the class' efficiency would be to stand on the precipice of making it OP.
Ammo drop is the engineers real ability, not the turret. Thus it should be available by default. The problem is the game lacking indication of it, not the existence. You are wrong.
The shields themselves are the crappiest design solution, and that was my opinion since day one. You are correct.
Fuel tanks need tweaking, but they only appeared as one of the methods to balance out rocketpods and stuff. In other words, without fuel tanks you can't afterburn as far as with them. You are (partially) correct.
That's logical. When you enter a bus, you don't bring your own car seat or your radio with you. You are wrong.
This is an oversight I assume, that later became a feature. You are correct, though.
There isn't enough options for hacking, atm, its strategical value is very low, thus there's no need to implement a special tool for that. But if we get that strategical importance down the road, than yes, we'll need a tool. You are correct.
On this topic I can only say one thing: Modern Shooters. You are correct.
You could originally destroy generators by shooting them, but it usually ended up in tanks just spamming these generators through windows. Besides think about it this way - to fix a gen you need to be in close proximity to the generator and you can't shoot back. To attack it (if you can shoot it), you can fire an AoE missile from any angle you want. So who wins - attackers or repairers? You are wrong.
PS1 tribute. 'Nuff said. As a PS1 vet - You are wrong. But as a matter of fact, this design solution is not significant. I'm fine with either.
So, let's add mines and detonated explosives that we all can see and avoid without any effort. What's the point of having these then? You are wrong.
That's the way they solved the issue when an ammobox was sliding down. The actual ammobox was (as a result) in one position, while the epicenter of ammo dispensing was in its original location. You are correct.

[psijaka]

Some of these thigns bug me too! My comments in green
Reading the thread about the new tutorial, I had a bit of a rant about how there are a lot of strange/obscure/inconsistent design choices in PS2 that make it harder for people to learn the game.

At Shogun's suggestion I'm reposting my list here (rather than hijacking the tutorial thread any more!):


Every class has a special ability on F. Except LA who has it on space. And Engineer, who doesn't have one.Fine with this. Space for LA is intuitive.
Every class has a special class-defining 'tool' in slot 3. Except for LA, who doesn't. I'm fine with this too; the ability to move in 3D gives a powerful advantage in many situations. Do you have any suggestions?
Engineer has ammo drop in a particular slot, but can replace this with other options - like health kits. Except they can still drop ammo even if it's been replaced by something else, by using their turret after pressing b. Intuitive stuff! :D This still baffles me after months of playing. Totally bizarre.
Glowing shields can be shot through from the inside, but not in from the outside. And they block grenades, but not rockets. Most of the time. Except sometimes they can't be shot through at all, and sometimes they can be shot through both ways. Except not by vehicles. Again, totally bizarre. Make all shields one way for all projectiles.
Every default weapon is solid and useful, the other weapons you can unlock are sidegrades. Except for ESF fuel tanks, which aren't weapons at all - and can be upgraded to kill-everything rocket pods. Rocket pods should replace the main gun, simple as that. Who would use a fuel tank when you can equip skillpods? :rolleyes:
Drivers also get the vehicle's main gun, because they paid the resources to acquire it and the certs or SC to unlock its weapons. Except for in Liberators, Galaxies, Sunderers and Harassers, which all require a team-mate to fire the main gun(s). MBT drivers being the gunner - Unfortunately I suspect that we're stuck with this; all they could do is nerf the primary and buff the secondary to some extent.
MAXes can't drive or gun vehicles, or man turrets. Except for Sunderer turrets, which are ok. Ridiculous!
To heal someone, you equip your healing tool and press fire. To repair something, you equip your repair tool and press fire. To hack something, you press E on it. There is no hacking tool. Good point; you would think that some kind of equipment would be required to hack.
Scopes are perfectly steady and don't sway. Unless you go over a certain magnification. But then there's a special button to make them stop swaying for a bit. Logic would dictate that all scopes and sights should sway; the amout of sway proportional to the magnification.
To blow up vehicles, you shoot them. To blow up turrets, you shoot them. To blow up generators, you go up to them and hold E, and then wait for the timer to run down. I preferred it when you could shoot up generators but the timer is an essential mechanic; if you could instantly blast a generator with C4 it would make it even harder for defenders.
When a vehicle or turret explodes it will hurt you a bit if you're next to it, but probably won't kill you. When a generator explodes it will go up violently enough to kill everyone nearby.
Grenades are marked by a special bright-red warning icon. C4 and mines are not - although they can still be deployed in the middle of a fight. I do think that there is a case for C4 to show up as red for a second or two after it has been deployed; it is mostly used as a large manually triggered grenade after all. Mines shoudn't be used as grenades, no need to display red if this was prevented (see below).
Putting down an ammo pack takes a second or two, appears right at your feet and is blocked by anyone moving through the area. Mines and C4 can be thrown some distance and appear instantly. Mines should need to be properly deployed; placed in position whilst crouching for instance, and not used as grenades. Happy with throwing C4 though - even though this is my most common cause of death when I'm running MAX.

I'm sure there's a lot more that I'm missing, but you get the idea. Many of these are things that I've seen players not know about, even after playing the game for months (or since launch in some cases) - others are just missed opportunities to make the game feel more consistent, logical or balanced.

Agree? Disagree? What strange design choices really get your goat, and what can be done to fix them?

I'll add some of my own later!

[Gatekeeper]

Special Ability does not imply the ability being an active one. You are wrong.
LA needs a special tool and I'm sure it will come as a part of the class revamp. You are correct. But truth be told, LA's ability is way too effective by itself, to add something that furthers the class' efficiency would be to stand on the precipice of making it OP.
Ammo drop is the engineers real ability, not the turret. Thus it should be available by default. The problem is the game lacking indication of it, not the existence. You are wrong.
The shields themselves are the crappiest design solution, and that was my opinion since day one. You are correct.
Fuel tanks need tweaking, but they only appeared as one of the methods to balance out rocketpods and stuff. In other words, without fuel tanks you can't afterburn as far as with them. You are (partially) correct.
That's logical. When you enter a bus, you don't bring your own car seat or your radio with you. You are wrong.
This is an oversight I assume, that later became a feature. You are correct, though.
There isn't enough options for hacking, atm, its strategical value is very low, thus there's no need to implement a special tool for that. But if we get that strategical importance down the road, than yes, we'll need a tool. You are correct.
On this topic I can only say one thing: Modern Shooters. You are correct.
You could originally destroy generators by shooting them, but it usually ended up in tanks just spamming these generators through windows. Besides think about it this way - to fix a gen you need to be in close proximity to the generator and you can't shoot back. To attack it (if you can shoot it), you can fire an AoE missile from any angle you want. So who wins - attackers or repairers? You are wrong.
PS1 tribute. 'Nuff said. As a PS1 vet - You are wrong. But as a matter of fact, this design solution is not significant. I'm fine with either.
So, let's add mines and detonated explosives that we all can see and avoid without any effort. What's the point of having these then? You are wrong.
That's the way they solved the issue when an ammobox was sliding down. The actual ammobox was (as a result) in one position, while the epicenter of ammo dispensing was in its original location. You are correct.


1: Class Abilities

All I'm saying is that it's inconsistent giving most, but not all, of the classes an active special - and putting most, but not all, of the specials on F.

I don't have a problem with having jump-jets on space, but I did have a friend tell me the other day that his jump-jets were broken because he was pressing F and getting nothing - so this really is something that confuses people.

And why doesn't the Engineer have an active ability on F? I'm not saying they're weak or useless because they lack one - but it's strange and inconsistant that they were designed without one. Especially since Medics get a pretty tacked-on ability that clashes with their tool, and HAs get one that could arguably be replaced by just giving them a stronger shield by default.

3: Engineer Ammo Drop

I agree that ammo is the key Engineer ability, not the turret - I never said otherwise.

All I'm saying it that it's extremely strange and unintuitive that you can 'unequip' the ammo to take something else - but actually still have the ammo. Either don't let the ammo be unequiped, or actually remove it. Again I've seen players who didn't realise they could still drop ammo, because they'd unequiped it.

6: Drivers are Sometimes Gunners

I actually have no idea what you're trying to say here, so I'll just clarify my own point instead.

I think it's odd that in a MBT you drive and operate the main gun yourself, while in every other multi-person vehicle (excluding the Flash, since the extra person is on a rumble seat) you have to have a dedicated gunner. The MBT should work the same way as everything else. That would also help to balance the MBTs and differentiate them from the Lightning.

10: Generators are Immune to Regular Damage

Again, I'm not actually suggesting a specific change here - I'm just pointing out that the way that it works now is strange and unintuitive. I frequently see people shooting generators or trying to use their repair gun on compromised ones.

It might be more logical/more obvious if there was a console to hack/unhack to enable/disable power - rather than having a physically exploding generator.

What I'm looking for here is ways to make the game more obvious and accessible to new players. Having a lot of strange little quirks like this can make the game seem intimidating to new players, which is a shame - because the game is actually great once you get into it.

11: Generators Explode Moar!

*shrugs* Again, I don't especially care - but I do see a lot of new players die to generator explosions - and each time something like that happens, there's a chance the player will say to himself "well f*ck this then!" and quit. Balanced against that potential, what does this actually add to the game?

Also I do get a bit bored of the game telling me that I'm firing on allied forces when this kind of thing happens ;)

12: Grenades have Warnings, Other Explosives Don't

The problem here is that C4 and mines can be used during a fire-fight, just like grenades can. If they're going to be something you can just throw down, then they should warn people. If they're stealthy traps/planned demolitions then they should take a little bit of time and care to deploy. Pick one.

My solution to this would be to either put a temporary warning over mines and C4 when they are first placed - which then fades after a few seconds - or to make placing mines and C4 something that isn't practical during a firefight - i.e. appears at your own feet, takes a second or two to perform - just like ammo packs. I'd prefer the second option, but either one would make some sense (you could even have both, if you like).

[NewSith]

6: Drivers are Sometimes Gunners

I actually have no idea what you're trying to say here, so I'll just clarify my own point instead.

I think it's odd that in a MBT you drive and operate the main gun yourself, while in every other multi-person vehicle (excluding the Flash, since the extra person is on a rumble seat) you have to have a dedicated gunner. The MBT should work the same way as everything else. That would also help to balance the MBTs and differentiate them from the Lightning.

10: Generators are Immune to Regular Damage

Again, I'm not actually suggesting a specific change here - I'm just pointing out that the way that it works now is strange and unintuitive. I frequently see people shooting generators or trying to use their repair gun on compromised ones.

It might be more logical/more obvious if there was a console to hack/unhack to enable/disable power - rather than having a physically exploding generator.

What I'm looking for here is ways to make the game more obvious and accessible to new players. Having a lot of strange little quirks like this can make the game seem intimidating to new players, which is a shame - because the game is actually great once you get into it.

12: Grenades have Warnings, Other Explosives Don't

The problem here is that C4 and mines can be used during a fire-fight, just like grenades can. If they're going to be something you can just throw down, then they should warn people. If they're stealthy traps/planned demolitions then they should take a little bit of time and care to deploy. Pick one.

My solution to this would be to either put a temporary warning over mines and C4 when they are first placed - which then fades after a few seconds - or to make placing mines and C4 something that isn't practical during a firefight - i.e. appears at your own feet, takes a second or two to perform - just like ammo packs. I'd prefer the second option, but either one would make some sense (you could even have both, if you like).

6: I got you all backwards. I thought you were implying that Gunners should define the weapons, not drivers.
10: Well, that's gonna be a job for tutorials. Because consoles are in fact even less "visible".
12: I see your point, I just disagree with it, since I consider that to be excess.

[Gatekeeper]

thanks! ;)

ok, so let´s see what could be done about some of them:

1. no idea if it´s a real problem that the la has no use of the f key. using the jetpack with the jump key seems intuitive. maybe do a double bind so f and spacebar do the same for la.

1b. (i still think the engineer needs a complete overhaul, but for now: ) make the ammobox the engineer F key ability. F is free on the engineer, and the turret is double-used, so keep it in line with the other classes.

2. there might be some tool for the la later on?

3. see 1b. ammobox needs to be always equipped and be used by F key.

4. fix the shields. make them ALL blocking every enemy damage and let through every friendly fire. no matter if fire comes from inside or outside. i think that´s what it was meant to be but it is only bugged.

5. no idea, i never used a ESF due to bugged joystick support

6. easy, make mbt dedicated driver! (and do a balancerun of course)

7. block sunderer turret seats for maxes. let them sit in the passengerseats but not the gunnerseats. i consider this a bug, not a feature.

8. introduce a hacking tool. there may be other uses for this thing as well later on.

9. put sway info on scope descriptions and mention the hold breath functionality in the tutorial

10. i would say, make the gen a hp beast and make it only vulnerable to explosions of any kind. but in those small containers gens would be vulnerable to vehicle spam. thoughts?

11. i don´t see a problem. consider the generators as running on some dangerous energy.

12. bullets aren´t marked with glowing symbols as well. i think this is ok. nades would be overpowered because you can drop them instantly. to drop c4 or mines you have to change weapon.

13. fix the drop mechanics and make them all the same! it is totally annoying that dropping ammo NEVER works at the first try.


Yeah, double-binding jump-jets to both F and space seems an easy fix. Adding ammo-drop to Engineer on F would be nice as a quick-fix, although I don't think it's that consistant with the more active 'powers' that the other classes get - so maybe something to develop more later.
No idea what LA would get as a tool, but does seem logical they should have one. Could be some kind of special weapon even, since that's what the HA gets.
Agreed, good quick fix. Should be removed from the turret and from its own seperate slot, to avoid confusion.
Trouble with the shields is that, as well as some being bugged and some weapons counting and some not, there are also three different types of shield: tank shields, spawn shields and SCU shields. The differences between them are not at all obvious, and players only learn which works which way is through painful experience. At the very least, tank shields should be a different colour to make it obvious they work in their own special way.
ESF fuel tanks are just a pet peeve of mine. A default ESF has these and so can afterburn a bit longer, but by paying SC you can replace them with rocket pods that are super-strong against all ground targets. It's not exactly a hard choice or good balance and frankly it stinks of pay-to-win.
Agree 100%
Yeah, maybe. I'm actually not sure on this one. I just thought it was weird.
Yeah, I'd like there to be a hacking tool as an alternative to the recon tool. Makes Infiltrators more interesting to have to make this choice, though they might need a buff to compensate them if this change is made.
Good suggestion.
I'd say replace the gen entirely with a hackable 'power console' so people intuitively realise it's a thing to hack not a thing to shoot. But sealing the gen rooms against vehicle spam and making them shootable would also work ok.
I don't have a huge issue with this either TBH, I just think it's a bit odd and could put some new players off. Nobody likes being unexpectedly exploded ;)
If the drop mechanics for mines and C4 are slow and careful like ammo packs, then I'd be fine with no warnings. But currently they're something that people can throw out in the middle of a fight, and allowing this without a warning seems unfair. If a warning was added, it could fade after a second or two, to keep them useful as traps.
Agreed on both counts. I'd like all deployables to use the same system, and to make it a slow placement by your feet - not throwing it. I would definitely like to see the mechanic of people running over the spot resetting your placement removed though, it is super-annoying.

[Gatekeeper]

6: I got you all backwards. I thought you were implying that Gunners should define the weapons, not drivers.
10: Well, that's gonna be a job for tutorials. Because consoles are in fact even less "visible".
12: I see your point, I just disagree with it, since I consider that to be excess.

6: In some ways I quite like the idea of gunners defining their weapons, but yeah - it wouldn't actually be practical or make sense.

10: Not sure consoles need to be any less visible, that's a level-design issue really. It's hardly intuitive that you need to walk up to the generator and press E on it. At least if it looked like a computer terminal or something, then you might realise it was something to interact with, not something to shoot.

12: Fair enough :)

Like most of these, it's not something I feel especially strongly about - I just think it's weird that some explosives have a big glowing warning marker and others don't.

IMO consistency is generally good game design, it makes the game feel more elegant and immersive and helps new players to learn it. I'm not saying that consistency should always 100% trump all other considerations, but I think it's definitely that PS2 could do with more of ;)

[Gatekeeper]

Some of these thigns bug me too! My comments in green

I'll add some of my own later!

I guess quoting your quote doesn't work right. Ho hum.

Hopefully I've covered a lot of your points in the last two massive replies I posted, so I'll just respond to a few particular bits and pieces here.

9: I agree that it would make most sense if all scopes swayed, but that might be annoying. I'd settle for Shogun's suggestion of specifically mentioning the sway downside on affected scopes.

10: Yeah, C4 on gens is a good point. Although OTOH it would make a lot of sense to be using a demo charge to perform actual demolition!

As I mentioned in my other posts, I think I'd rather they replaced gens with hackable power consoles - it avoids both these problems and also the issue of noobs getting killed by gens all the time.

[Emperor Newt]

- Flash radar: 100 meters, Sundi radar: 50 meters
- Cheap AI weapons, cheap AV weapons, no cheap AA weapons
- Having the ability to have a second ammo pack with you, but the only instance you can use it is when your mana turret is up (*edit* Ah, already mentioned. Missed that)
- Having two different kinds of grenades is a no-go, but having grenades and C4 is totally fine

[Gatekeeper]

- Flash radar: 100 meters, Sundi radar: 50 meters
- Cheap AI weapons, cheap AV weapons, no cheap AA weapons
- Having the ability to have a second ammo pack with you, but the only instance you can use it is when your mana turret is up
- Having two different kinds of grenades is a no-go, but having grenades and C4 is totally fine

Good points!

It's definitely weird how in most weapon categories you get 100, 250 and 500 cert options - as well as several at 1000 - but in some areas you don't - or you only get some of them.

Can you actually put down two separate ammo packs? If so, I didn't realise that. Or am I misunderstanding?

[NewSith]

- Flash radar: 100 meters, Sundi radar: 50 meters

This particular thing I don't understand myself. I mean because of its range Sunderer radar does not sound like any worthy substitute to AMS.

[Shogun]

i really hope the ammopack on the turret ace is intentional.

the ammo pack is the most important mainfeature of the engineer.
if the devs decide you have to sacrifice ammopack to be able to carry mines, the engineer will become totally useless.

[NewSith]

i really hope the ammopack on the turret ace is intentional.

It is and it was confirmed several times during beta.

[Rbstr]

Some of these things aren't "inconsistencies"

Why wouldn't a generator that powers a facility blow up more violently than a single vehicle?
Ammo packs aren't consumables, they spawn just like the turret and are, in fact, an alternate fire mode for the turret deploy. Having it show up in the consumables slot, though, is inconsistent. (Of course, I would like it to be throw-able)

or "obscure"
If you want blowing up a generator to be an objective to fight over, you can't have it just explode when some infantry pile a bunch of C4 on it. That intention is not obfuscated in the least.
Nor is it inconsistent, as every generator behaves the same way.
Mines and C4 - which are traps - should have indicators like nades? Again, not obscure or inconsistent. They are persistent and exist in a different slot and are not "quick throw-able"

[Emperor Newt]

Can you actually put down two separate ammo packs? If so, I didn't realise that. Or am I misunderstanding?
No you can't (at some point in beta you could if I remember correctly). That's the point. You have two ammo packs, but you can always only have one on the ground (putting the other down despawns the first one).

afaik (please correct me if I am wrong) the only use the second ammo pack has is that you can put one down when your mana turret is up (because using the mana turret despawns the mana ammo pack). But I might be mistaken here.

[Gatekeeper]

Some of these things aren't "inconsistencies"

Why wouldn't a generator that powers a facility blow up more violently than a single vehicle?
Ammo packs aren't consumables, they spawn just like the turret and are, in fact, an alternate fire mode for the turret deploy. Having it show up in the consumables slot, though, is inconsistent. (Of course, I would like it to be throw-able)

or "obscure"
If you want blowing up a generator to be an objective to fight over, you can't have it just explode when some infantry pile a bunch of C4 on it. That intention is not obfuscated in the least.
Nor is it inconsistent, as every generator behaves the same way.
Mines and C4 - which are traps - should have indicators like nades? Again, not obscure or inconsistent. They are persistent and exist in a different slot and are not "quick throw-able"

I'm talking about what is consistent from a design PoV, not trying to argue realism. Perhaps a generator would be a bigger explosion than a tank, perhaps it wouldn't - it's really impossible to say.

What we can say for sure is that a lot of players don't expect generators to explode hugely and kill them - and since vehicle explosions are much smaller, they may be expecting something along those lines.

Clearly we agree that the way ammo packs work currently is inconsistent, so I'm not sure why you're mentioning it :)

The fact that generators need you to go up and press E is (somewhat) obscure, and is not consistent with the mechanics for destroying other objects. New players see a generator and shoot at it, because that's the obvious thing to do. They get repair tools out when they see it overloading, because that's the obvious thing to do.

That's because to destroy other things (like vehicles and turrets) you do shoot them, and when you see them burning that does mean they need repair.

That's what I mean by design consistency - if the design is consistent then learning one part of the game teaches you the rest. If the design is inconsistent then you have to learn each individual mechanic separately, which is frustrating and takes longer.

I understand why generators work the way they do - there are good design reasons for it - but it is both inconsistent and obscure. Finding a solution that meets those same design goals but which is also consistent and obvious would be preferable - that's why I suggest replacing the generators with hackable consoles: basically the same as the current mechanic, but more intuitive.

[Gatekeeper]

No you can't (at some point in beta you could if I remember correctly). That's the point. You have two ammo packs, but you can always only have one on the ground (putting the other down despawns the first one).

afaik (please correct me if I am wrong) the only use the second ammo pack has is that you can put one down when your mana turret is up (because using the mana turret despawns the mana ammo pack). But I might be mistaken here.

As far as I'm aware there is no difference between placing an ammo pack that you've got equipped in your utility slot or placing an ammo pack using the ACE tool. You can have one ammo pack down at a time, and placing a new one (with either method) replaces the currently deployed one.

Whether or not you have a turret deployed doesn't affect your current ammo pack, or your ability to place a new one.

At least I *think* that's how it works! The fact that we're not sure about all this really makes my point about how the current design is confusing and unintuitive!

[DeltaGun]

Lol, I like the list. They are all true. People who are picking them apart are missing the point.

To a new player, the inconsistencies are unintuitive.

[Wahooo]

Reading the thread about the new tutorial, I had a bit of a rant about how there are a lot of strange/obscure/inconsistent design choices in PS2 that make it harder for people to learn the game.

At Shogun's suggestion I'm reposting my list here (rather than hijacking the tutorial thread any more!):

[LIST=1]
Every class has a special ability on F. Except LA who has it on space. And Engineer, who doesn't have one.
Every class has a special class-defining 'tool' in slot 3. Except for LA, who

What is the class defining tool in slot 3 for HA and Max? Oh... so 1/2 the classes have a tool like medic has a medic tool and engie has and engie tool that actually makes sense.
Every class has a special ability on F... unless on Max you cert into something other than charge then they don't have it anymore, and engie doesn't either. So actually F is a special button for a few of the classes and in certain situations, that makes sense as well.

[Gatekeeper]

What is the class defining tool in slot 3 for HA and Max? Oh... so 1/2 the classes have a tool like medic has a medic tool and engie has and engie tool that actually makes sense.
Every class has a special ability on F... unless on Max you cert into something other than charge then they don't have it anymore, and engie doesn't either. So actually F is a special button for a few of the classes and in certain situations, that makes sense as well.

The defining tool of the HA is the rocket launcher. Did you not notice those? ;)

True, the MAX doesn't have one - but it's pretty different to all the other classes (has timer, costs resources, has no shield, dual-wields, etc. etc.) so I didn't think it was worth mentioning.

The *default* MAX does have a special ability on F though. The fact that you can remove it doesn't change the fact that it's a little strange that the Engineer doesn't get one *at all*.

[Aiden]

I agree with your list, and it generally points to the same truism about Planetside 2's newbie-friendliness. It's not hard to play. It's just unintuitive.

Here's some more for you.


When you buy a scope or a vehicle weapon, you have to re-buy it for every new gun or vehicle. Despite being identical, the "Sunderer Bulldog" is somehow different than the "Harasser Bulldog." Then, you have to upgrade it separately, too.
Weapons and vehicle weapons have unclear roles. When would I use a Bulldog over a Fury? When would I use a Fury over a Bulldog? Why can't I tell at a glance which ones are AA, AI, and AV?
Weapon descriptions are minimal and vague. For $7 weapons, you'd think they'd be descriptive. Example: S carbines can equip underbarrel weapons that no other guns can, but that's nowhere to be found in the tooltip.
Charlie squad is the same color as the Vanu Sovereignty, which is confusing for icons.
The Squad Waypoint for every squad is the same color as Alpha squad.
The Platoon Waypoint is the same color as Bravo squad.
The Platoon Leader color is almost identical to Bravo squad's color.
Autorun keybind is different in vehicles. Also, it doesn't work the same way (if you bring up your map, you will stop driving).
Underbarrel launchers push the rest of your items forward one slot, so your keybinds for pistol/utility change from loadout to loadout.
Equipment terminals replenish your shield, but not your health. If you want to heal yourself at an equipment terminal, you have to switch to Medic, use his special ability, and switch back.
Some vehicle third person views are 360 deg (Sunderer, Harasser, tanks)... except the Flash (60 degrees).
Vehicle locking has a "save and exit" button. In no situation would you ever not want to "save and exit" this simple 3-choice dialog. This button could be combined with Cancel into "OK" so that hitting escape or page up again would save your selection.
In the cert list for a class, you have to wade through a list of locked weapons to reach the unlocked weapons you own and would actually like to upgrade.
Night vision (and the IRNV scope) work in daytime, and highlight enemies like thermal vision. Yet, there's a separate thermal vision that works very similarly but not exactly the same, and costs more.