Ok, trying again. New Comp:

[Strygun]

Ok, my last thread got all jumbled up with changes. Here's what I have down so far. *PLEASE LOOK FOR WAYS TO SAVE MONEY!!!*



CDRW * Asus CRW-5224A 52x24x52 CDRW IDE (http://www.computerstop.com/outlet/default.prod.asp?ItemNumber=CD-ASU11)
--------
CPU * AMD Athlon XP 2700+ 2.167GHz 333FSB Processor Retail (http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80175-R)
--------
HardDrive * Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 8 6E040L0 40GB 7200RPM ATA/133 Hard Drive w/Fluid Dynamic Bearing Motors (http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=100623)
--------
Case-268 with See-Through Windows & 80mm Fan on Back! I'm getting the 420W power supply (http://www.ibuypower.com/parts/CASE/a268.htm)
--------
MOBO * A7N8X, nVIDIA nForce2-ST chipset, 333/266/200 MHz FSB, up to 3GB PC3200/2700/2100/1600, 1 AGP8X, 5 PCI, On board Audio, 10/100 LAN, USB 2.0 (http://www.compuhq.com/asa7nvamdatx.html)
--------
WinXP OEM (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=37-102-014&DEPA=6)
--------
Mitsumi 1.44MB 3.5in Floppy Disk Drive (https://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=110403)
--------
Corsair CMX512-2700C2 512MB DDR333 PC2700 Memory w/Heat Spreader Retail (http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80060)
--------

Videocard: i'm gonna wait until the 9800 pro's are out (4/25) and get a 9700pro when the prices drop. I guess I can just use the onboard video until that day.

How's that?

[Hunter83]

Don't forget your Thermal Compound :D

http://www.bestbyte.net/Product.cfm?ProductID=699&CategoryID=7&Keyword=


And that site, http://www.bestbyte.net , has some good cases (http://www.bestbyte.net/Category.cfm?CategoryID=2&Keyword=) as well.

This is the one I have, I like it a lot: http://www.bestbyte.net/Product.cfm?ProductID=704&CategoryID=2&Keyword=

It doesn't come with a PSU, but I always get a nice Sparkle one seperately. http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=17-103-407&refer=pricewatch
It might come out to be a lil more expensive, but having a good PSU can ensure long life for ur PC. Likewise, having a crappy one can case problems. You may want to find out what PSU they put into that case u linked and see what u can find out about it.

[OneManArmy]

see if you can find a cheaper cdrw (I have a 52x one but I NEVER burn it at that speed, not to mention 52x cd-roms are expensive)


everything else looks good, and waiting for the 9700 pro is a good idea.

[Strygun]

Updated the above w/ memory link.

As for thermal compound, I plan on raiding radioshack for a few last minute items, including compound, an anti static wristband, and a PC tool kit.

[OneManArmy]

anti static wrist bands are a fucking joke. don't waste your money. and unless you are going to be repairing PC's for a living you don't need a tool kit just a screw driver.

[Strygun]

Originally posted by OneManArmy
anti static wrist bands are a fucking joke. don't waste your money.
First comp I've ever built. I'm gonna go fry it all from the start. :D

[OneManArmy]

I'm just tellin the truth they can cause more harm than good.

All you have to do is not build your comp on carpet. keep it pluged into the wall. (that grounds the computer) and before you start just touch the case (metal part).

if you are wearing a wrist thing just think if for some reason there is engouh charge to do something its headed straight for your wrist(where a major artery is)


not to mention some people forget they're wearing one and end up knocking the computer or some parts to the floor and breaking them.

like I said a fucking joke. as long as you're not knee deep in shag carpeting it'll be alright.

[Strygun]

Well OK... I guess I won't get one.. Not sure where I can build it though.. I guess I will have to walk back and forth btwn the kitchen and my room (kitchen table, and I will use guides/help from people on the internet as I build it)

[RandoMTerroR]

Hmmm... I personally would get an Intel processor, as they get u more bang for the buck (Yes all you amd freeks, they do... this is hard to say as i has allways been with amd, but never the less...) or at least get a bit slower model...

Im not sure, but 2700+ is just about the fastest model on the market currently? if that is true, then get the model just below... The raw power u get extra, does not validate the extra cost, which from nr 2 to nr 1 can often be quite big all things considering...

[Gammit10]

Originally posted by RandoMTerroR
Hmmm... I personally would get an Intel processor, as they get u more bang for the buck (Yes all you amd freeks, they do... this is hard to say as i has allways been with amd, but never the less...)

HUH? How is it that I, at 1.73 Ghz with an AMD, can beat my uncle's P4 (clocked higher), and I paid 1/3 the price that he did?
We have nearly identical systems.

I mean, I'm not against Intel, but I process better for less money.

[Navaron]

Sure they have more power, but they are way the hell less efficient. Head to head gaming, amd always wins.

The 3000 is out (or will be shortly), so the 2700 is the best bang for the buck. The 2800 is out also, but I've never seen one.

[BigGayAl]

Time to do this the right way. None of you know me, so you all will have to take this at face value.

I have built a very large amount of computers over the years. I will not give an exact amount for 2 reasons. #1 I am not sure. lost count a while ago. #2, no one would believe it anyway.

This is what I would do if it were my money. I will try to post reasons as well as links.

Processor: 2200+ ($97 shipped from newegg.com)
why only a 2200? there is a $190 price difference between a 2200+ and a 2700+. That is only 370 mhz. is 370 mhz worth $190? hell no. I could buy two 2200+'s and a 2000+ for the same cost.

Artic silver III and a decent HSF ($20 at SVC.com) radioshack sells crap for compound. and the only tool kit you will need is a #2 phillups screwdriver and a flat bladed one for the HSF. The only real wird thing you would need is an extra PSU cable. here is why. you want your case to be grounded when you work on it. you take the extra cord and plug one end into the PSU. on the plug end, you grab a grinder or a pair of tin snips and cut off the smaller blade. That is the hot blade. the other blade is neutral (which actually goes to the ground bar in your fuse box) and the round one is ground. your case is now grounded for free. you can buy a wrist strap if you want, but it is a waste of $10. just be careful and don't wear your socks on the carpet, and touch the case before you work on the system. no doing calestenics either.

Ram: the corsair is cool. I prefer crucial, but it is nearly identical in price, so all is cool. ($87)

Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-7VAX ($85 shipped from newegg)
this board will support 333 and 400 bus speeds. the nForce is a waste of money if you will be adding a videocard. The only way the board needs the bandwith offered by the dual channel ddr is for onboard video. with an add on card, the increase is only about 5% over single channel. And how is he gonna use a dual DDR board with only 1 stick of ram?

Hard drive: 60 gb 7200 from best buy for $60 after rebate

cdrw: $19 at Best buy after rebate or $40 from newegg.
the BB one is $70 before rebate, so you will have $50 in limbo for a while. your choice. I would rather spend $40, so that is what the total will be using)

case: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=11-132-002 ($28) with 300 watt PSU.

PSU: 400 watt ($17) http://www.linkpca.com/lin40atxpows.html Sell the 300 or use it in another system or something. Hell, use it as a door stop for all I care.

Hard hardware: $349 + video card.

Add on crap:

Floppy: $9 from newegg.com for a sony.
keyboard: $10 from office max for a micorsoft with internet keys (sale till saturday)
mouse: $17 for a intelimouse with LED from newegg.com
OS: XP home ($97 from newegg)

Cooling: 8 80mm case fans, one hard drive cooler.

80mm fans: http://www.nexfan.com/evcafan80bl.html $1 each for evercool. you will use the extras sooner or later. just pay shipping once. sunon fans are $1.75 if you want those @ the same place.
HD cooler: http://www.nexfan.com/evinhddco.html $6.

Total cost of a kickass system without vid card: $496 + $27 for shipping from the venders = $523.

You can now afford a 17" LCD, and you lost nearly nothing. there is no way in hell you will notice a difference between this system and the one you had listed. None. in 6 months, buy the 3000+ for $100, sell the 2200 for $40 and have a 3000+ system for under $600 sans vid card.

Questions?

[OneManArmy]

lol wow you repeated a few things that were already said and told him to go build a helicopter (8 fans.... :rolleyes: )

The nvidia board is fine, It doesnt come with built in video. and why would he need the dual DDR if he only has one stick? well gee.. I guess he's never EVER gonna buy any more :rolleyes:

why the 2700+ well its got a 333fsb. and if its a "barton" its gonna blow that wimpy 2100+ away.

[Future]

Dont wait on a vid card, that nforce 2 setup onboard wont run anything for crap... plus I find it hard to believe the rad 9700 will drop to much in price within the next year, even once the 9800 comes out I doubt itll drop more than 40-50 bucks. Just get a 9700 pro for now, that card is good for a long while most likely

[BigGayAl]

Originally posted by OneManArmy
lol wow you repeated a few things that were already said and told him to go build a helicopter (8 fans.... :rolleyes: )

The nvidia board is fine, It doesnt come with built in video. and why would he need the dual DDR if he only has one stick? well gee.. I guess he's never EVER gonna buy any more :rolleyes:

why the 2700+ well its got a 333fsb. and if its a "barton" its gonna blow that wimpy 2100+ away.

There are only 4 fans in the case. I said to buy 8 because you will use them sooner or later. only pay shipping once. those fans are also extreamly quiet. I have a bunch. If you want even quieter, buy the turbo cools. they are nearly silent. tHe evercools are much better quality though.

the nVidia board is $40 more. that is $40 better spent elsewhere. it is not worth the increase in performance. and to get that performance, you have to spend another $100 on memory. not worth it. and why even bother to spend the money for all of 5% performance increase? Hell, the nForce is actually over 15% slower at encoding movies than a like setup kt333 board. In a Maya enciding test (which if you know maya) is extreamly bandwith intensive, so encoding in maya will show memory bandwith advantages over everything else. well guess what? there is less than a 2% increase over a kt333 board. IMHO, worthless.
Link: http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showdoc.html?i=1731&p=5

As for the barton core, you did read my post right? why spend $300 when you can spend $100 for 90% of the performance? And "blow it out of the water" will not happen. Please see any review done on the barton core for proof.

Hell, I will link one. http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1783&p=12
Unreal 2003. (since PS is not used as a benchmark yet) 2700+ = 198.6 FPS 2200+ = 171.6 FPS.

Now, I don't know about you, but I only see a.. ummm.. *gets out his calculator* 27 FPS difference. For over 200% more money. Please.

I don't see anything getting blown away. I see a minor difference not worth $190. in 3-6 months the 3000+ will be $100. buy it then if you really have to have it.

This is not to belittle you or anyone else. but too much goes around by word of mouth without any hard facts to back it up. 512k of cashe and a 333 bus may sound like it is all that and a bag of chips, but it isn't. the current AMD CPU flat out does not need more memory bandwith. more cashe helps, but 512 is overkill unless you are using the chip in a server application.

Any other questions?

[OneManArmy]

Fine, I didn;t want ot actually have to go through all this work, but since you are so good.

In these test you can clearly see the barton at 2500+ clearly beats the 2000+ (which has only a minor difference with a 2100+[its about 15 frames or less difference]) by 50 or more fps http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030210/barton-14.html
notcie how well it does overclocked

then if you will follow your eyes to the following pages you will see that the Barton at 2500+ gets a score 1000 higher than a 2000+ in 3dmark2001 not much, but notice the OC scores


ok shall we continue? UT2k3

almost a 40 fps difference. hardly worth it? please that can mean life or death when the action gets thick.

comanche 4 (a game that hates fps)
barton at only 2500+ gets 53fps while the 2000+ (remember very similar to 2100+) gets 40...
again note the OC scores


why get a barton? because the AMD chips up to the 2500+ are a bitch to overclock (it involves glue, silver paint, and it can get ugly) where as the newer chips come unlocked (all you have to do to overclock is set it in your BIOS) very easy

the nvidia board is trusted by many people and is a rock solid overclocker. its stable and the APU and integrated ethernet Do not harm performance like other boards will (sure its minimal but still notable up to 15%)
http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/sound_for_games-03.html#benchmarks



That little bit of extra money is well worth it and will keep that machine nice and fast in the long run.


theres you're facts... read it, love it, leave it I dont really care.

[Zatrais]

:stupid:

Get the nForce 2 mobo, 2500+ and add another stick of 512MB ram when you can.

[Strygun]

Originally posted by Zatrais
:stupid:

Get the nForce 2 mobo, 2500+ and add another stick of 512MB ram when you can.


I'm buying the comp with 2 of those 512 sticks.

I'm ordering parts on monday, but now I'm all confused as to what to get. Help! More explanations!

[Hunter83]

I personaly like the A7N8X mobo, and since your getting the 2 sticks of 512, ur all good.
Get Artic Silver 3, tests have shown it's the best on the market atm (unless there's some new stuff I dunno about :p ) The link I gave for the thermal compound(see page 1) gives free shipping on it.

I'd say go with the 2500+ Barton, it's ~$100 less and you can easily unlock the multiplier(very easily, requires almost no PC knowledge.) and clock it a lot higher.
Also, in a couple tests, the 2500+ Barton actually beat the 2700+ Barton, and where the 2700+ Barton beat the 2500+ Barton(which it did in most of the tests), it wasn't worth ~$100
Of course the tests the 2500+ won out in were all synthetic memory tests. In the real world benchmarks, the 2700+ won out(no by much), still, it makes u wonder....

Here's a linky to a good review: http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030210/index.html

One overclocking footnote: our test CPU was ideal for overclocking, remaining stable at 2500 MHz with conventional air cooling.
Note: 2500Mhz is quite different then being a 2500+, the 2500+ runs at 1833Mhz, a 2500Mhz chip would probably be higher then what the 3200+ would offer.

So, in short, go 2500+ Barton, and overclock it to save money and very much increase performence.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Shogun, make sure the 2 sticks of 512 are at least at 333 mhz if you do, indeed, get the A7N8X Deluxe mobo from Asus. You want to optimize this sucka.

I have a box with the 2500 Barton, 2 sticks of 512 Corsair at 333mhz, and a A7N8X Deluxe mobo... and everything flies.

[Hunter83]

Yeah, make sure the RAM says it's either 333Mhz, or PC2700.

Also, just FYI, u don't need to run 2 sticks of memory on a Dual DDR board, you only have to if you want to activate the 2 channel feature. Another reason I like DDR a lot more then RDRAM :p

[BigGayAl]

Let me explain some things OneManArmy.

your first benchmark: http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20030210/barton-14.html

#1. Quake 3 benchmarks are all but useless now. they have not held relevance for about a year. in fact, Tom's is one of the few who still use it for some god forsaken reason.

#2. We were talking about a 2200, not a 2000. in that matrix, the 2000+ did 244 frames, and the 2400 did 267. if we assume the 2200 will be in the middle, then we can guess that it would do about 250 fps. The 2700 did 302. That is a 50 frame difference, which is an 18% difference. Wow. 18% improvement for only 200% more money. Sounds like a good deal too me.

#3. you have heard about refresh rates for monitors right? 75hz, 80hz, etc. Well, that means that the screen gets refreshed 75, 80 ect times per second. So if the screen is being refreshed 80 times a second, why do we need 300 frames per second? they are just dropped by the monitor. It is wasted CPU anyway.

#4 3dmark scores. Again, wea re talking about a 2200+ vs a 2700+. so if we assume between 2000 and 2400, then we end up with a difference of 1450 3dmarks between the 2200+ and the 2700+. Hmm.. 11% improvement for 200% more money. Again, sounds like a good deal to me!

#5 UT 2003. I am not sure why you even bothered with this one. I posted this test in my last post. You must have skipped it by accident. I thank you for supporting me though, even while you are putting forward your case to further your goal.

#6 Comanchee 4. if you again assume the 2200 is midway between the 2000 and 2400, you end up with an increase of 18%. We are actually getting up there now. an 18% increase may actually be noticeable, expecialy if all you did was play commanchee 4. but again, 200% more money is a lot to be paying for an 18% increase in performance.


barton core over throughbread: It is true you need an overclock kit, and usually need to fill in the gaps burned into the organic to overclock. but this person did not want to overclock. No where did he say he wanted to. nowhere. if he did, it probably would have been the same outcome, because if you are gonna be overclocking, you buy cheap cpu's and kick the crap out of them. for the most part you don't want to shorten the life of your $300 CPU from 10 years to 3 for all of 250-300 mhz.

Motherboard:
#1 NIC. True, the Nic is on the Chipset, so there is less cpu overhead then if you were using a realtec onboard nic. but it is less, not nonexistant. A add on card will remove almost all the overhead anyway. again, not a huge difference.

#2 overclocking: Hell yes the nVidia nForce boards are sweet for overclocking. They provide lots of options for voltage tweeking and 1 mhz bumps for the FSB, but the board I suggested is no slouch either. it has the same options. Also, again, we are not helping someone who will be overclocking. this is his first computer. Just because you and i overclocked our first systems does not mean he wants to.

the difference between the nForce mobo and the 2700+ chip compaired to the 2200+ and the other board is almost $300. now I don't know about you, but I can get a sweet LCD for $300. The entire point was to SAVE HIM MONEY while getting him the ebst he could afford. notice his first post. I think I saw a bunch of asterics around that part. Maybe he thinks it is important?

[OneManArmy]

My error, I thought you suggested getting 2100+. now for a couple of comments

1. he's getting PC2700 RAM why waste it on a chip with a FSB of only 266??? Why make him go through the hassel of having to change out his chip later on to get the full effect...
2. By the time he's ready to upgrade his comp It will be time to buy the Hammer (Athlon 64) not another XP chip....

3. you go on to suggest he buy an LCD monitor? WTF is wrong with you, I know you understand that LCD's are shit for gaming, right?

4. Maybe he won't Overclock right away but when the time frame comes to buy another chip like you suggested he can just slip into the bios and OC it. (its pretty simple so he could do it, and you wouldn't need any extra cooling)
One overclocking footnote: our test CPU was ideal for overclocking, remaining stable at 2500 MHz with conventional air cooling.

[Hunter83]

Lemme start off with.. You don't need an unlock kit to unlock the multipliers on the T-Bred and Barton. Nor do u need surgical skills.
I know at least two methods that don't even touch the CPU. THG shows one of them, there's an even easier one that they do not show.

And as far as I know, you only shorten the lifespan of a CPU by increasing the voltage going to the chip which forces the transistors to operate at a voltage they were not intended to.
That's why my FSB is only at 143Mhz, I don't go higher then stock voltage.

Unlocking the multiplier would allow a greater increase in performence then bumping up the FSP a lil.

Unlocking the multiplier on a Palomino core is a pain in the butt, that's why I failed to do so on mine. But T-Breds and Bartons are so simple and easy to do. If anyone here couldn't do it, I'd be scared.

And saving money? I'm recommending Shogun get a CPU that is ~$100 cheaper but with virtually no effort that can be even better.
I wouldn't recommend the 2200+ unless someone is really short on cash. Shogun doesn't seem to be since he first listed the 2700+ as what he would like to get. The Barton 2500+ also is a great overclocker, esp where the multipliers is concerned.
For that ~$100, he could get the deluxe version of his board if he wanted/had a use for it and cover a large part(maybe even all) of his shipping.

Also, he didn't say anything about a monitor in his post, but LCDs are crap for gaming in my opinion. I've used both and like the Flatscreen CRT's a lot better. And my eyes love the CRT's.

If I could get any system at all, no matter how much cash I have. Right now, I'd get:
AMD XP 2500+ Barton
Asus A7N8X Deluxe
2 512MB Sticks of PC2700 RAM from Crucial/Micron or Corsair(depending on price, but since Crucial/Mircon has a lifetime warrenty I'd probably get it from them)
GeForce4 Ti4200 128MB (b/c I saw this really cool review of how much the CPU/GPU really do when related to each other)

That was way too much writing for this late.
Sry for the long post Shogun, just trying to clear some things up.

[SpacemanSpiff]

I would buy Corsair no matter the price and lack of lifetime warranty... they should last lifetime regardless. Of course, this is simply the ramblings of someone who has decent luck with the company.

[Strygun]

I am going to be building the comp next week, with some of the listed items changed. I will post a thread when it is complete with the specs of it. (And if I can borrow someone's digi cam, a pic)

[BigGayAl]

OneManArmy:

on the memory being wasted: The memory will stay close to the same price in the coming months. the CPU will not. You can buy the 2200+ now, and if for some strange reason it is not up to what is expected, then you could upgrade to a 3000+ for about $100 at that time becuase the hammers will be out. Hopefully. Shogun and myself actually had a very, very long conversation on lots of stuff, and he decided to get the 2500 AFAIK. He has decided he may want to dabble with OC'ing it in the future, so he decided to get the 2500 because it is already unlocked. For us, unlocking a cpu is nothing. Superglue, tape and a defrost kit and we are good to go. The days of the pencil are gone unfortunately. Burning the organic made it a little harder.

on LCD: Actually, LCD's can be better for gaming, but ones with a fast enough responce time are few and far between. my 15" ghosts a little, and can get annoying. I was just using the LCD as an example of what caan be bought for $300 as an LCD is a higher ticket item. I should have just said he paid for his 9700 pro.

Hunter83:

yes you can overclock by shorting pins on the mobo instead of on the CPU. So either you draw on the back of the mobo or on the chip. Neither is a 5 minute job. You have done it enough that you can do it in your sleep, but he is new to the OC world. :) T-breads take all of 2 minutes with a pencil, and the bartons are already done. so you are right, if you can't do that, you are in trouble :)

Running the CPU at an increased frequency and/or a greater voltage will shorten the life of the chip. I know 3 electrical enggineers who work for intel, one in cpu design and another in the FAB. They go by the online names of PM, Ziemmervolt and wingz. They are about 10,000 times smarter than me, and have said that intel bins CPU's for a 10 year lifecycle. meaning, at that speed and voltage, they should last 10 years of 24/7 use @ 100% CPU usage. Increasing the voltage kills the lifecycle more than just changing the multiplier (which you can't do on retail intel cpu's anyway, you have to do it witht he FSB) The problem is that at a higher frequency the doped silicon starts losing electrons that are needed for the signal to propigate across the gate when run at higher then designed speeds or higher voltage. the testing showed that the lifecycle dropped quite a bit. unfortunately I do not remember the specifics, but I do remember the 3 year timeframe. Unfortunately I do not remember if it was a pIII or a P4 and how far it was pushed, but if you are interested I could find it. I am pretty sure I still have it.

I am of course assuming that the same would happen to a AMD cpu. I do not know anyone who works for AMD :(

And I am sorry for my longwinded posts as well. I am sure there are abotu 200 spelling errors in them :P

<ecit>
my bad, it is a 7 year binning, not a 10 year.

[OneManArmy]

I understand all that al, but that is still more hassle than is needed in this situation. Better to get it all out of the way now than keep going through this cycle of upgrading and replacing. less chances for something to go wrong or get broken. and congrat :rolleyes: I've been talking to him too for quite some time (he's in my outfit, duh) and have been telling him to go for the 2500+ as well. well I don't see him (or me or anyone) keeping this chip past 3 years.. hardware improves at a much faster rate. not to mention the Athlon 64 chip will be out way before (god willing) this thing ever dies of a heart attack.