A quick bit of math

[War Barney]

The VS starter gun for heavy has a rpm of 750 (12.5 bullets a second) and damage of 143 at 10m that means 1787.5 dps at 10m falling to 125 damage a bullet at 65m which is 1562.5 dps (damage per second).

The NC starter gun for heavy has a rpm of 500 (8.3 bullets a second) and a damage of 200 at 10m that means 1660 dps falling to 167 at 85m meaning 1386 dps.

The TR starter gun for heavy has a rpm of 750 also (also 12.5 bullets a second) and a damage of 143 at 10m meaning 1787.5 dps and also has 120 damage at 65m meaning 1562.5 dps then.

Now lets also consider that the NC and TR starter guns have the kick of a mule on steroids.

Edit: I know what some of you may say *but the NC gun has a longer range* thats true, but infiltrators have longer still and are better suited for ranged damage, the NC gun has a range that isn't needed for a heavy and the kick means you have almost no accuracy at that range.

I know what else you might say *but the TR gun has a larger clip thats why its just a hands down better version of the VS one* ah yes this is true and perhaps once or twice this could save you, but pray tell how many times you have been saved by almost no recoil, great hip fire accuracy and a VERY quick reload speed. I've only played a few hours of VS and I can tell you I've already been saved by those things a few times. Remember one fight I killed 3 people then ran around a corner while I reloaded then waited for the last guy to turn the corner and killed him to. And no thats not bragging, they were poor NC guys so never really had a chance.

Discuss

[AThreatToYou]

NC6 Gauss SAW is good solely because it gains more from headshots and experiences less of a damage drop off over range. So yeah, it is longer range. If you have trouble hitting at that range, then I don't know what to say. Adding scope-sway to the 6x scope was a gigantic nerf to the Gauss SAW, though. They really should either revert that, or let the NC use a 5x scope without scope sway.

Prior to the scope-sway nerf, I very often counter-sniped infiltrators with the SAW and the AC-X11, two 200 damage/shot weapons able to use 6x scopes.

[MrMak]

Saying the range is a non factor becouse infiltrators have better rang is a flawed argument. Ifind myself in long rage firefights as a Heavy often especialy when seting up with lock on lauchers on a hill. The Gaus SAW lets me engage aproaching infantry and even fight back agaisnt inflitrators. Still on the fence wether to use a 4x or try to cope with the sway on the 6x though.

[War Barney]

If you are in a long range fight with a infiltrator and he isn't head shotting you while you try to get it to hit the guy is a idiot. The recoil is so bad you need to reaim after almost every shot at any long range. And honestly I've never had a problem using the VS and TR guns at range.



These figures show plain as day that the NC gun is just bad and needs fixing, the same as all our heavy guns it seems. They just have such a stupidly slow rof meaning in a short to medium range battle we can't compete. I know they want to have each faction specialise in 1 area but making NC the long range low damage faction is NOT the way to do it. You can't fight people from 100m away when capping a point... you are forced to be in the same room as them in which case TR and VS guns win hands down.

[Dragonskin]

War Barney, what you are forgetting about the NC Gauss Saw is that unlike other LMGs it has much lower first shot recoil. Which allows you to stay on target at greater ranges than other weapons. The higher bullet damage helps when fighting at range as well. Headshots matter since they do double damage.

The best things about the VS Orion is that it has 750 RPM and .75 ADS movement. It's the highest rate of fire LMG that has .75 ADS movement which allows you to dodge shots slightly better than the other 2 LMGs. The only other faction specific LMG with .75 ADS is the SVA-88 which is also VS. The NS-15m has .75 ADS, but has much slower fire rate. The Orion is a beast in CQC that outshine other factions.

The T9 CARV is kind of in the middle. It has the high rate of fire like the Orion, but has lower ADS movement. It has the ammo pool like the Gauss Saw and the bullet velocity like the Gauss Saw.. while the Orion has the lowest velocity. So in a CQC match TR vs VS they are faily equal.. except the VS has better movement ability while the TR has better velocity so the TR bullets should hit slightly faster than the VS bullets.

[Bocheezu]

This is a little old, but still holds water. Go to 10:14 in this clip (embed won't let me set it to fast foward to there). You will never be able to do that with any other faction's weapon. That's what makes Guass SAW so good. If you can aim, you will devastate multiple people.

http://youtu.be/KUGzeGoZ4x4?t=10m14s

[Rolfski]

If anything in this game is balanced, it's definitely the default weapons. These have been discussed to the death since the game has launched. Orion vs Gauss Saw vs T9 Carv is just a matter of personal preference, really. They are all excellent starter weapons in there own way.

[bpostal]

The VS starter gun for heavy has a rpm of 750 (12.5 bullets a second) and damage of 143 at 10m that means 1787.5 dps at 10m falling to 125 damage a bullet at 65m which is 1562.5 dps (damage per second).

The NC starter gun for heavy has a rpm of 500 (8.3 bullets a second) and a damage of 200 at 10m that means 1660 dps falling to 167 at 85m meaning 1386 dps.

The TR starter gun for heavy has a rpm of 750 also (also 12.5 bullets a second) and a damage of 143 at 10m meaning 1787.5 dps and also has 120 damage at 65m meaning 1562.5 dps then.

Now lets also consider that the NC and TR starter guns have the kick of a mule on steroids.

Edit: I know what some of you may say *but the NC gun has a longer range* thats true, but infiltrators have longer still and are better suited for ranged damage, the NC gun has a range that isn't needed for a heavy and the kick means you have almost no accuracy at that range.

I know what else you might say *but the TR gun has a larger clip thats why its just a hands down better version of the VS one* ah yes this is true and perhaps once or twice this could save you, but pray tell how many times you have been saved by almost no recoil, great hip fire accuracy and a VERY quick reload speed. I've only played a few hours of VS and I can tell you I've already been saved by those things a few times. Remember one fight I killed 3 people then ran around a corner while I reloaded then waited for the last guy to turn the corner and killed him to. And no thats not bragging, they were poor NC guys so never really had a chance.

Discuss

Wait a minute. You've got a whole bunch of numbers and some maths but what exactly is your point? That one faction has a better starting weapon than the others? Here's something that I've found out without having to worry about fractions and shit: All the starting weapons are pretty damn good.
End of Discussion.

[Bocheezu]

Also, straight DPS is not the correct way to compare weapons. The best is TTK, accounting for the fact that the firing sequence starts with a bullet and not with the intervals between bullets (when you click your mouse, you instantly fire a bullet, you don't have to wait a 60/RoF interval of time before the bullet fires). So, comparing starting weapons

1. Guass SAW -- Five bullets to kill, four intervals/gaps between bullets to kill (the actual 60/RoF firing time), takes 4*60/500 to kill = 0.48 seconds.

2. Orion -- Seven bullets to kill, six intervals/gaps between bullets to kill, takes 6*60/750 = 0.48 seconds

3. T9 Carv -- same as Orion

So the true TTK is identical between all three of them.

Now if you want to calculate how quickly you can kill multiple people in a row without letting go of the trigger, or how quickly you can kill a MAX with an LMG, then yeah, Gauss SAW is probably going to fall behind because the benefit of having that high-damage starting bullet goes away the longer you fire. It makes up for this with the huge 100-round clip size.

[War Barney]

I give up, I just hope SOE realise how shoddy the NC guns are (and the NC max for that matter, worst MAX ever).

Then again I didn't expect people to say *oh ye NC guns are awful thats why I kill NC so easily* I expected them to say *no NC are fine I'm just awesome thats why NC always die a lot.

And boch that is utter giberish you had posted, stopped making crap up to cover up for the shoddy NC weapon

[Dragonskin]

I give up

You should have just left it at that. Your DPS doesn't matter because targets don't stay still and you don't need a full second to kill anything. In 1 second you will clearly do more damage than required to kill a target.

If you break into TTK (time to kill) then you realize they are all equal because your damage to the point of a kill takes the same amount of time. This is the part that matters. You aren't raiding.. this isn't a raid boss fight we are talking about. DPS matters more in fights that actually last more than a full second.... like raid bosses. The TTK in this game is so low that DPS doesn't actually matter.

Don't get mad that people didn't just jump to aid you in your whine fest about NC weapons and please do more research before you decide to visit topics that have been discussed into the ground over 6 months ago.

[Rbstr]

And boch that is utter giberish you had posted, stopped making crap up to cover up for the shoddy NC weapon

He's talking gibberish? Try reading your own post.

It's also not his fault you can't understand the concept of front-loading damage.

[maradine]

Say it with me: Alpha, alpha, alpha.

[MrMak]

NC MAX.....garbage........You lost me there. Yes our MAX is at a disadvantage at mid range but it complelty wrencks everything at close range, especialy with the the aegis shield sice you can just walk up to em while they waste bullets or use it to coever your relaod (activating the shield does not interup reloading your weapons).

The Gaus SAW is FINE. Just becouse it doesnt fit your, quite frankly, narrow minded concept of what an LMG should do doesnt make it garbage. Your constant dsmissal of everything others write doesnt help your case either.

If you hate NC guns so much switch over to Vanu. They need the numbers and you will fit right in I think. Also would give me a chance to perhaps shoot you with my Gauss SAW.

[GreyFrog]

Here is a quick bit of math for you DPS don't mean shit, TTK does.

http://ps2model-axiom.rhcloud.com/#sttk/sh20-10-10/ha/1.2/N/23/22/24

[Artalion]

Also, straight DPS is not the correct way to compare weapons. The best is TTK, accounting for the fact that the firing sequence starts with a bullet and not with the intervals between bullets (when you click your mouse, you instantly fire a bullet, you don't have to wait a 60/RoF interval of time before the bullet fires). So, comparing starting weapons

1. Guass SAW -- Five bullets to kill, four intervals/gaps between bullets to kill (the actual 60/RoF firing time), takes 4*60/500 to kill = 0.48 seconds.

2. Orion -- Seven bullets to kill, six intervals/gaps between bullets to kill, takes 6*60/750 = 0.48 seconds

3. T9 Carv -- same as Orion

So the true TTK is identical between all three of them.

Now if you want to calculate how quickly you can kill multiple people in a row without letting go of the trigger, or how quickly you can kill a MAX with an LMG, then yeah, Gauss SAW is probably going to fall behind because the benefit of having that high-damage starting bullet goes away the longer you fire. It makes up for this with the huge 100-round clip size.

Time to Kill is a very useful statistic, but it is also deceptive. It makes certain assumptions, the biggest is that the shots you are firing will hit. But as is often the case, recoil can radically reduce the accuracy of your shots. In close quarters combat, when both players are moving around, accuracy is further reduced.

So the TTK statistic also needs to take into account the average number of shots fired per kill.

For each shot you miss, you will have to add a time break for the missed shot. This would be about .12 seconds for each NC miss, and .8 for each TR/VS miss. When you start to take misses into account, DPS matters.

Now let's look at the TTK statistic, assuming that each opponent has missed exactly one shot.

NC: 5 breaks * 60/500 = .6
TR/VS: 7 breaks * 60/750 = .56

At the end of short battles, I often find that I've expelled about ten rounds. So let's measure that period of time, shall we?

My TTK is 1.08 s (9*60/500) while my opponent would be .88 s (11*60/750).

The bottom line here is that the TTK statistic is misleading and that his assertion that NC weapons are at a disadvantage against their competitors is plausible. VS weapons have no recoil, which translates to higher accuracy. TR weapons do have recoil, which reduces their accuracy, but the effect is much less pronounced because their weapon is more forgiving, that is, a miss with a TR weapon is the same as a miss with a VS weapon.

But NC weapons have heavier recoil and a slower rate of fire, which means that their miss penalty is 50% more than their competitors. In fact, we can show that their time to kill is only identical when every shot hits, and that they are always at a disadvantage with each miss.

But why not make things more interesting. Let's assume that two heavies are dueling with overshields activated. This brings their health to 1700 as health. The numbers come out to this.

NC: Nine shots kill. That comes out to .96 seconds. (8*60/500)
VS/TR: Twelve shots kill. That comes out to .88 seconds (11*60/750)

Assuming perfect accuracy (HA!) the NC are at a clear disadvantage. And as I have already shown, when accuracy is equal (HA!) the disadvantage become even more amplified. Therefore, the default NC weapon at 10 meter engagements are weaker or equal to their enemies.

All this information was assuming an engagement at ten meters, which isn't unusual. But perhaps they are having a ranged engagement. Let's see if the NC prevail at range.

At range, assuming perfect accuracy the numbers give us this:

NC: Six shots to kill.
VS: Eight shots to kill.
TR: Nine shots to kill.

NC TTK: (5 shots+(shots missed=0))*60/500= .6 seconds.
VS TTK: (7 shots+(shots missed=0))*60/750= .56 seconds.
TR TTK: (8 shots+(shots missed =0))*60/750 = .64 seconds.

For a moment, it looks like the NC have something to celebrate. They can claim that their weapon is better than the TR at range.

But then we take inaccuracy into account and things go downhill for the NC very quickly.

Let shots missed= 1.

Then the following numbers occur:

NC TTK: .72
VS TTK: .64
TR TTK: .72

Equality is reached within one missed shot, and by two missed shots, you get:

NC TTK: = .84
VS TTK: .68
TR TTK: .76

Now comparing heavies with overshields at range and perfect accuracy.

NC: Eleven shots to kill.
VS: Fourteen shots to kill.
TR: Fifteen shots to kill.

NC TTK: 1.2 seconds.
VS TTK: 1.04 seconds.
TR TTK: 1.12 seconds.

TL;DR

VS heavies have an absolute advantage over all other factions, and places first close up and at ranged combat. They are able to kill the heavies of the other factions faster at range and up close.

TR heavies come in second, they are plausibly equivalent to VS at close range, but recoil makes equal accuracy unlikely, giving the advantage to Vanu. TR are at a clear disadvantage at range. This disadvantage is amplified by the reduced accuracy of the TR due to recoil. They are able to kill NC heavies at range.

NC heavies have the worst guns of the three factions. They are dominated by the TR and VS at close range. They have a plausible advantage over the TR, but that advantage only exists when accuracy is perfect. If one shot is missed, it is equal to a TR weapon, and for misses greater than one, NC returns to third place. They will lose to the heavies of both factions, even with perfect accuracy.

[GreyFrog]

Artalion - That tool I linked takes into account accuracy. My general automatic weapon accuracy hangs around the 20% mark so thats what I fed it. If yours is higher or lower you can adjust it to suit :)

[Dragonskin]

And Damage per Mag matters... and so many other variables that it all doesn't really matter because you are rarely... very rarely in a true 1v1 with both parties starting at 100% health and shield. You would also both have to start facing each other and able to fire at the same time.

Going to go back the my earlier MMO raid statement. You aren't fighting boss battles against NPCs that have specific phases and combat routines. Crunching a ton of numbers doesn't actually mean that any one will always win. Not everyone is playing on the same skill level. Not everyone has the same access to consumables. It just very rarely ever happens that way. To the point that it doesn't matter really.

In a complete vacuum VS might the best. In the real game environment any faction could have an advantage that will guarantee the win over the other.

[Ghoest9]

Here is a quick bit of math for you DPS don't mean shit, TTK does.

http://ps2model-axiom.rhcloud.com/#sttk/sh20-10-10/ha/1.2/N/23/22/24

wrong wrong wrong

[MrMak]

wrong wrong wrong

http://youtu.be/fqs9DYisSsg