MLG Thoughts and Feedback

[Hamma]

I was reading over this thread: (I almost never read Reddit but it caught my eye)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1hfep8/mlgps2_we_need_new_unbiased_and_informed_casters/

This thread is more for folks who are somewhat interested in MLG. I know that thoughts are really strong on the matter and lots of folks are strongly against it and that is fine. Just don't come into this thread and rage out on the whole idea :lol:

MLG is happening, it's 100% inevitable now if thats not apparent. Battle islands, leaderboard systems, flying out Outfit Leaders to events etc etc etc.

I have a unique perspective now I know many of the people involved in this whole thing and I've been to three MLG Championships so far. I was skeptical at first but now I am excited to see what comes out of it. I want to see PlanetSide 2 on that big stage and see the teams I know and respect from the community fight it out for bragging rights and maybe even money. I want to see what happens when tried and true outfits face outfits just simply built for eSports.

All of that being said I went somewhat off topic. I like both Jax and Goldenboy and don't want to dig into whether or not they are good casters. What I really want to dig into is what do YOU want to get out of a competitive stream? Do you think the current style is good or would you like to see it done differently than other streams?

[Edfishy]

I enjoyed watching the recent Starcraft 2 tournaments. Perhaps look to those for casting tips?

Gotta admit I haven't watched any serious competitive streams of PS2 yet.

[Hamma]

Here's some stuff for reference:

MLG Anaheim Planetside 2 Special - Episode 1 of 2 - YouTube

Band of Bros vs Honeybadgers vs CML - War Report Episode 12 - YouTube

VREV vs TIW vs TRAF - War Report Episode 10 - YouTube

[torokokill]

I haven't watched too many of the war reports, I cannot make any comment on the casting. A competitive format of this size really hasn't been casted before. PS2 is forging new territory; I imagine we'll hit a few bumps along the way. In other games, casting is meant to entertain the audience and help explain the game to people who don't know all the inner-workings of the game.

That being said, I find myself a little disinterested when outfits not on my server are showcased. Nor am I the type of person to roll alts on other servers just to get my 5 seconds of observer camera fame. Edit: I suck at server locations.

An observer mode HUD would help me enjoy the stream a bit more. There was one instance on Friday night in which the person controlling the observer camera had to spot a VS player inside of an amp station to see their name. Not only was this not visible by default, but I think the observer may have spotted the player out for his faction as the player got jumped on almost immediately after. Not too worried, I imagine an observer mode HUD is in the works.

I feel a little disconnected from the fight when the observer just flies around in third person. I would absolutely love a mix of first-person and third-person modes, but I highly doubt it would be easy to implement a first-person observer mode.

[DirtyBird]

Seeing as you assist in the promotion of PS2 at MLG you might be able to answer this.
Is participation in MLG, from a PS2 perspective, restricted to continental USA only?

[Hamma]

No idea what the answer to that is sorry :(

A better observer cam is definitely on the way, it's pretty much a pre-requisite for real streaming as far as I am concerned.

[Mordelicius]

They don't like Jax only because he's NC, that's all.

I'm seen him and TIW roll in Waterson. They are effective, fast, strong and quite stand up. When you ask for reinforcements they come and will gladly lead or help in fights.

As for the casting, I don't see any bias at all. He's not even playing while casting. The thing is, the guy is fairly knowledgeable with PS2.

I haven't seen GoldenBoy yet in Waterson though. He tries to make it interesting, but needs to brush up on his knowledge on PS2 and community. I remember his confusing VREV (VS) for DREV (NC) on and on. On one of the last cast, he's calling Vanguard like Lightning :doh:

[SternLX]

I'm all for PS2 in Pro e-Sports. I want to see whole team efforts, not just focus on a single person like most Pro e-sport games do now. Good ole American Football for example... focus is on the team effort with little highlights showing off an individuals outstanding plays. Sure the games have an MVP program but it's not about that, it's about the Team that wins. That kinda thing is what e-sports should be.

Unfortunately the Current generation Z being the "Me me me generation" sees it differently.

As for the format. It works so far but as already pointed out, Observer cam needs more work to make watching more compelling.

[Rolfski]

As for the casting, I don't see any bias at all. He's not even playing while casting. The thing is, the guy is fairly knowledgeable with PS2.

I haven't seen GoldenBoy yet in Waterson though. He tries to make it interesting, but needs to brush up on his knowledge on PS2 and community.
+1

I don't see the problems brought up in that reddit topic. Jax's commentary is not that biased and GoldenBoy already announced that he will improve on his knowledge and play the game more. Both are good casters and there's something to say for a format where one asks the questions and the expert analyst answers them.

As for MLG/eSports in general, I'm particularly interested in what it will do for the Chinese and the upcoming Russian and Latin community. World wide competitions could potentially give a big boost to the game.

[Hamma]

So in terms of casting, do you guys think two people cut it to track a 48 vs 48 match?

[bpostal]

I've been watching some of the MLG stuff recently and while I like what I see, I have to agree with reddit. If PS2 wants to put on it's game face then it doesn't need casters, however top notch they are, it needs Planetside players. It's nothing against the current casters but it almost feels too professional. These are busy guys who may or may not be leading platoons day in and day out. PS2 MLG needs to grow from the game, and for that it needs to be cast by someone who can look at a MAX crash and see how that particular fight fits in overall.
Without the ability for someone watching to 'latch' on to a specific player or outfit the streams and commentary is limited to the observer cam. It's a great tool, no doubt but it does have it's limitations. One of the observer cam's strengths though is that it can 'zoom out' and show the overall effort. For that kind of viewing experience we need a different casting style. One not so much focused on specific players but on the overarching shit that's going down.
The casters set the tone for the entire show and IMHO, these guys need to quit their day jobs, get drunk and do nothing but play Planetside 2 for a few weeks. They need to nerd it up, lead platoons, talk on leader chat. Just go out and get into the nitty gritty, the obscure and the strategy. Then they shall be ready to cast.\

EDIT: In response to your question Hamma, Hell no two people ain't gonna cut it. Maybe to cast it sure, but they'll need at least a half dozen camera guys to ensure the best vantage point while still covering ancillary areas in case of random bad ass.

[Sledgecrushr]

This game really looks good up close and personal. They really need to be able to latch onto anyone at any time in a third person view.

*Its going to be difficult on the casters figuring out how to use a NEW observer mode when the games start. SOE needs to release these new view cam tools asap.

[Rolfski]

2 Casters, a bunch of camera men and a BR 100 director to decide which footage is shown, is what we need.

[DirtyBird]

In response to your question Hamma, Hell no two people ain't gonna cut it. Maybe to cast it sure, but they'll need at least a half dozen camera guys to ensure the best vantage point while still covering ancillary areas in case of random bad ass.
I tend to agree with bpostal.
Even in Tribes we had two casters to cover both teams a fraction of the size of this (10v10) and they still missed things now and then.

Do they currently have someone directing them to specific events in game to cover or are they just randomly rambling on about stuff just for the sake of being heard?

Add more cameras and some direction.

[LoliLoveFart]

Two casters is fine but they would have to know their shit otherwise people will just stop watching if they are umming and awwing all the time. Going to need a bunch of guys scattered around in observer cam to capture the fights from good angles, and assuming the casters don't get into individual players but focus on troop movement and strategies they can see forming, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

[Chewy]

So in terms of casting, do you guys think two people cut it to track a 48 vs 48 match?

Depends if there is more than 2 fights at a time. If the platoons each fight over one base at a time then yeah 2 casters would be plenty. But if the platoons split into squads then 2 casters might not be able to catch everything on a big map.

How many bases do the battle islands have? 2-3 outposts, 2 main bases, and 2 WGs? 2 casters could cover everything if they keep an eye out. Maybe have a 3rd or 4th to watch for things where the casters aren't to tell them ASAP.

[Maidere]

IMO they need like 3 POV's constantly on screen (spectacular cinematic perspective, 1st person and some kind of map, I would like to see something firefall-like personally) rotating all the time - 1 fullscreen and 2 picture-in-picture.
And like Roflski said, they need few cameramen and director.

[Larington]

One thing I AM definately interested in seeing is the TR vs TR, VS vs VS and NC vs NC matches. Maybe weapons won't seem so over/under powered on each empire after those.

[Boomzor]

As mentioned, they need more people with dedicated tasks, like following the air battle, the vehicle pushes, the nitty-gritty weapon knowledge and what not.
When something significant is about to go down, they alert the main casters who switch to the appropriate camera. That way we won't have to wait for "camera travel time", and we'd miss less of the spectacular eye candy we really want to see.

Though it is sort of hard comming up with really useful feedback when we know (or strongly suspect) that the conditions and premises will change radically with the incomming battle islands.
As it is now, strange things are happening outside the area of coverage, like in the first video where Snowshear were being attacked by randoms (I think) and thus delayed the NC armour push.
On a battle island that would certainly be a stratgeically sound preemptive strike by one outfit to hamper another, and would be really interesting to be informed about as a viewer, but currently it just seems random and a bit out of place.

[Graywolves]

I was excited for this last year. There's a chance for it to work out. But right now to invest the resources to make it work might hurt the game. The spectator UI needs to be more than just a camera moving around. They need to be able to track an individual player as well, to have the minimap and other information on the UI like players alive for each empire, vehicle's pulled, etc.

Casting needs to be unbiased and knowledgeable. If the game takes off then surely a larger variety of casters will appear and we'll find out which one works best.

We'll see if Nexus works out with being a competitive arena.

A game can't be very competitive if it is going through drastic changes every month and with the current movement mechanics we're not going to see very powerful plays. Exciting moments need to be found and a detached view of MAX's pushing a control point or a Sunderer blowing up doesn't make the viewer feel anything, if they watched a fire team move out to take out the sunderer or an engineer/LA trying to get through to blow it up, that puts people in suspense.

[Blynd]

So in terms of casting, do you guys think two people cut it to track a 48 vs 48 match?

simply no

they need three guys and those guys need to be well up on their knowledge. Golden just doesnt cut it.
as everyone else has said though they need alot more observer cams id probably put out something like 10- 15 observer cams - have 4 -5 up in the sky purely covering the air fight and airial shots of amour movements and fights from as many angles as possible to get good footage and id put the rest on the ground in specific locations almost like in motor racing where they just pan across that section of track each lap - have choke points perminently covered and then the rest just monitoring the infantry fight

[Hmr85]

TBH, they need more than two guys. Three maybe but anybody they put in front of the camera needs to know what the hell they are talking about. The current commentators do not IMO.

Also, the in game camera needs a complete overhaul. I like what sledgehammer put on the last page. The ability to latch on to a player and watch him in third person or hell even first person would be awesome. That way you can watch your favorite players when they are playing. There also needs to be more than 1 camera in game. There needs to be about 10 or more to cover all the angles that way they can hot swap between them on the fly.

Also, I can't stand how when your watching the "tournament" how they designate targets and its a rush to get to the point first. set the factions up on outlying point and put the objective as neutral. First person to get to it and hold for X amount of minutes wins. A lot more enjoyable IMO. They could also do a Conquest match. Where you have 3 bases. Each faction has one and the objective for the two opposing faction is to take the one neutral base then push the other faction our of their "home base".

They also need to move this shit off live servers. It's cool and all that its all the factions but IMO, they need to cut it down to 1 faction vs 1 faction if your doing 48v48. Set it up as a bracket and have the winners face off in the end. The MLG tournament feed over the weekend was just a zerg of meh.

Right now the war report or MLG broadcasting they are doing just isn't enough to hold my interest. TBH, its boring to watch. The SC tournament was where it was at and maybe they should take some notes from that on how to do it properly. IMO, fix the above issues and maybe it will start to get interesting.

[Hamma]

The method of calling targets right now is more of a workaround than anything. Once Nexus comes in, I suspect we will see future War Reports take place there. And like I said earlier, better observer tools are on the way. The Dev team is more than aware that is required.

[Calista]

So in terms of casting, do you guys think two people cut it to track a 48 vs 48 match?

You volunteering for the 3rd slot Hamma? :)

They will probably need more than 2 for sure. Something like a setup that normal TV coverage of sporting events has where there can be 2 play-by-play guys and one color commentator would be nice.

[Hmr85]

The method of calling targets right now is more of a workaround than anything. Once Nexus comes in, I suspect we will see future War Reports take place there.

Maybe so, but it made it look amateur like they didn't have a clue what they where doing and isn't the way to try and draw in a audience right off that bat.
Also, the tournament would of probably been better if it was done on Amerish than Esamir. There is a better selection of bases there IMO.

[CrimsonTemplar]

I was reading over this thread: (I almost never read Reddit but it caught my eye)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1hfep8/mlgps2_we_need_new_unbiased_and_informed_casters/

This thread is more for folks who are somewhat interested in MLG. I know that thoughts are really strong on the matter and lots of folks are strongly against it and that is fine. Just don't come into this thread and rage out on the whole idea :lol:

MLG is happening, it's 100% inevitable now if thats not apparent. Battle islands, leaderboard systems, flying out Outfit Leaders to events etc etc etc.

I have a unique perspective now I know many of the people involved in this whole thing and I've been to three MLG Championships so far. I was skeptical at first but now I am excited to see what comes out of it. I want to see PlanetSide 2 on that big stage and see the teams I know and respect from the community fight it out for bragging rights and maybe even money. I want to see what happens when tried and true outfits face outfits just simply built for eSports.

All of that being said I went somewhat off topic. I like both Jax and Goldenboy and don't want to dig into whether or not they are good casters. What I really want to dig into is what do YOU want to get out of a competitive stream? Do you think the current style is good or would you like to see it done differently than other streams?

I can see those PR minions and their devious ways got to you too Hamma :rofl:

In all seriousness, it doesn't seem as terrible as what I first thought. Yet have to agree, there needs to be more casters approaching PS2 with an objective outlook. Bias will exist and poke its head every now and then, in all things sports and e-sports but at least we could reduce it somewhat.

Have other outfit leaders, commentate on particular teams? One caster for each 'theatre' of war (In this case, air and ground and the third could follow individuals), or have them at different points on the map. Couple of suggestions.

[krnasaur]

Its meh. Im not thrilled, camera needs work

[Mordelicius]

So in terms of casting, do you guys think two people cut it to track a 48 vs 48 match?

It's hard to tell until we see what the Nexus is in terms of size/scale. Although, if those MLG previews on live servers require 2 casters, a small battle island would logically require more (again it depends on the size and scope).

[typhaon]

* Caster familiarity with the Nexus is going to be critical. They are going to have to know ahead of time what is likely to happen... where it's likely to happen... maybe a pre-game interview or two with the leaders of each outfit so they know what to look for.

* 10,000 different camos is bad, utterly confusing for anyone watching. It's completely unclear what's going on... and I know the game! Maybe each side should be required to wear a game camo or outfit camo.

* I think MLG is taking away from the faction vs. faction conquest game most of us imagined. I know it's happening. I hope it does work out - but I'm skeptical. It would be cool to watch this scale... and even larger... "pro-outfits" compete. At the very least, I do think it will lead to an urgency in correcting a lot of imbalances in the game. Outfits are going to play to win... and they are going to use and abuse everything and anything that is OP in these matches - the good ones will, anyway. So this is the one benefit that I am looking forward to...

[Calista]

* Caster familiarity with the Nexus is going to be critical.

That's why they won't need an over abundance of casters. It's much the same as casting SC2 where there are a small amount of maps used and the maps themselves are small. Jax and Goldenboy will have every inch of Nexus memorized as they do the SC2 maps. It just may be nice to have a 3rd person to do some overwatching and filling in commentary between the play-by-play.

It would be cool to watch this scale... and even larger... "pro-outfits" compete.

How many PS2 outfits can field 48 at a high level of organization and competitiveness? Or even further... how many outfits would be interested in MLG? I don't see a huge outpouring of support for the endeavor but maybe I have overlooked it?

[typhaon]

How many PS2 outfits can field 48 at a high level of organization and competitiveness? Or even further... how many outfits would be interested in MLG? I don't see a huge outpouring of support for the endeavor but maybe I have overlooked it?

I don't know. Probably very few. I imagine early matches will be ragged. I don't think we even know how the Nexus will play.

I expect sides that MAX crash best and rinse/repeat will dominate early - but it may turn out better tactics evolve.

[Roderick]

Agreed that more camera angles need to be implemented. Also, the ability for the cameraman to shift from squad to squad to see what they are doing in the fight.

So much was missed during the coverage including the epic air and ground battles. 90% of the time the coverage was focused on one squad per side.

As for the commentary, I was happy with how Goldenboy and Jax performed. They help make the game fun and who would have ever thought we would have this type of coverage for PlanetSide 2? Kudos to Goldenboy and Jax for volunteering to help make the game better for those that know nothing about PlanetSide 2.