MAX Balance Part 1: NC

[Chewy]

Im far to sleepy to type out of this again. So PSU all you're going to get is a sloppy copy of what I posted on the official PS2 forums. Link.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-1-nc.138919/


Math used.
I don't feel like typing all of my math for every weapon. So I am giving my math here and just typing the end bits for miss %, TTK, and DPS to save time and my fingers.
ROF / 60 = RPS X 2 = Dual RPS
Total Shots X Damage Per Round = Possible Damage - 10,000(assumed MAX HP) = Missed Damage
(Missed Damage / Possible Damage) X 100 = Miss %
Shots fired / Dual RPS = Fire Time + Reloads = TTK
10,000(MAX HP) / TTK = DPS

Weapons stats.
http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry

NC MAX AI weapons.

Scattercannon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-wGcJxeDY&list=PLpQvz_FpwvRrVBXMqakoKurv5eKFfOVrF&index=2

Stats
Max Damage:130x6 before 8m
Min Damage:50x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:3s
Long Reload:3.8s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 13
10m- 17, 17, 16 (16.66 average)
15m- 36, 34, 40 (36.66 average)
20m- 72

Hacksaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mETqa_oCJUo&list=PLpQvz_FpwvRrVBXMqakoKurv5eKFfOVrF&index=4

Stats
Max Damage:125x6 before 10m
Min Damage:45x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:3.2s
Long Reload:4s
Fire Rate:209

MAX v MAX
0m- 14
10m- 28, 24, 24 (25.33 average)
15m- 56, 60 (58 average)
20m- 116

Grinder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-TlbvJ7vuE&list=PLpQvz_FpwvRrVBXMqakoKurv5eKFfOVrF&index=1

Stats
Max Damage:130x6 before 8m
Min Damage:50x6 after 18m
Damage Drop:8
Short Reload:3.4s
Long Reload:4.3s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 13
10m- 20, 20, 20 (20 average)
15m- 42, 48 (45 average)
20m- 92

Mattock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRHqX7tpTI&list=PLpQvz_FpwvRrVBXMqakoKurv5eKFfOVrF&index=3

Stats
Max Damage:112x6 before 10m
Min Damage:70x6 after 30m
Damage Drop:2.1
Short Reload:3s
Long Reload:3.8s
Fire Rate:180

MAX v MAX
0m- 15
10m- 16, 15, 15 (15.33 average)
15m- 23, 23, 21 (22.33 average)
20m- 36, 32, 34 (34 average)

Results in order of 0m 10m 15m 20m.
Scattercannon-
0% miss _______12.24% miss____38.56% miss___53.7% miss
5.96 TTK_______6.57 TTK_______17.51 TTK ____31 TTK
1,677.85 DPS___ 1,522.07 DPS___571.1 DPS____ 322.58 DPS

Hacksaw-
0% miss________39.63% miss ___58.35% miss____68.07% miss
6.01 TTK _______11.63 TTK _____32.33 TTK _____80.66 TTK
1,663.89 DPS ___859.84 DPS ____309.31 DPS ___123.97 DPS

Grinder-
0% miss _______26.9% miss _____49.94% miss ___63.76% miss
2.16 TTK _______7.63 TTK ______16.1 TTK ______32.53 TTK
4,629.62 DPS ___1,310.61 DPS ___621.11 DPS ____307.4 DPS

Mattock-
0% miss ______2.92% miss _____26.46% miss ____46.13% miss
6.3 TTK _______6.32 TTK ______7.52 TTK _______13.26 TTK
1,587.3 DPS ___1582.27 DPS ___1,329.78 DPS ___754.14 DPS


Opinions-
The only NC MAX AI weapon worth a damn without certs is the Grinder. Get dual Grinders and nothing will stand in front of you but even they are limited to point blank (under 10m) or risk losing a MAX fight. But if you add cert options (not slugs, I hate slugs) then a dual Mattock MAX will rule above all other NC MAX weapons. Mattocks may need to most ammo to kill a MAX point blank but their range by FAR make up for that limit. Mattocks are the ONLY NC MAX AI weapon that compares to the AI weapons on either TR or VS MAXes.

And to the opposite of what most forums warriors want you to think. Hacksaws are **** now, pure and simple. They are in my opinion the worst weapon a NC MAX can get unless you're incapable of clicking your mouse more than once.



I have tests done for all MAX AI weapons but only have done the math (in this detail) for NC so far. The videos of them can be found in my YT channel if you're willing to get a sneak peak at what all MAX AI weapons can do. This is also not something I can burn through and just making this page took 2-3 hours if not more in trying to get everything right. In after thought doing all of this past midnight isn't the best of ideas.

Please note that I do plan on doing the same for TR and VS MAX AI weapons. They will just have to wait a bit. In the mean time use this data as you will. But if another half-***** ******** contest starts without one side showing proof then man am I going to be pissed. :domotwak:

[MGP]

http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/ai_max/all/per-hour

That is all.

[typhaon]

I can sum it up better for you... every NC MAX is the worst at what it does, at the moment.

AI - We're poor... only in close range fights vs. infantry do we perform OK. We are junk vs. any MAX.

AV - Worst by a country mile. Fracture > anything we have. ZOE + whatever is greater than anything we have.

AA - we don't have ZOE, we don't have Lockdown.

[Gatekeeper]

http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/ai_max/all/per-hour

That is all.

Yeah, those stats really do speak for themselves.

I'm getting really bored of people crying about the AI weapons on NC MAXs - just because they've been nerfed doesn't mean they're crap now - they're just less OP than they were.

Again, I'd compare VS/TR AI weapons to SMGs - better at range than shotguns, but still pretty poor - and weaker at CQC as a trade-off. That makes them more versatile, but overall less powerful.

I can sum it up better for you... every NC MAX is the worst at what it does, at the moment.

AI - We're poor... only in close range fights vs. infantry do we perform OK. We are junk vs. any MAX.

AV - Worst by a country mile. Fracture > anything we have. ZOE + whatever is greater than anything we have.

AA - we don't have ZOE, we don't have Lockdown.

Disagree completely about AI: NC AI is still the strongest option.

As VS infantry I fear NC MAXs far more than TR ones. An NC AI MAX will often kill me before I can do anything, whereas I can at least dive into cover from a TR one, and maybe work round behind it with my Deci or C4, or plain run away.

As for AV: I'd say the Falcon is a strong option, probably better than the Comet and clearly better than the Pounder. And although the Fracture is probably the king of the new AV options, the Raven is still strong. The only glaring weakness amongst the new AV weapons is the Vortex's incredibly poor AI power.

Finally, while it's fair to say the NC MAX has an overall disadvantage in AA damage output, it's worth bearing in mind that the TR have to lock-down to achieve that, making them more vulnerable and limiting their arc of fire, and the VS take additional damage from incoming fire - so it's not as simple as you're making out.

So, I guess I'd summarise by saying that NC MAXs have the best AI, medium AV and the weakest AA. Sounds pretty balanced to me.

[War Barney]

You can tell these idiots who are trying to say that the NC MAX is fine have never played one. Do those stats speak for themself? how up to date are those stats? are they from the last week? And wheres the anti vehicle list? cos when I play a VS MAX I tend to just 1 shot everybody with those huge ass plasma cannons that also slaughter vehicles.

Please just stop trying to deny how worthless the NC MAX is until you have played one. Its far and away the WORST in the game with the worst new ability ever. I would give every weapon the NC MAX has for 1 of the new abilities the other MAXs got.

[MrMak]

War Barney....just stop. You are embarassing yourself.

The more you start to rage the less seriously people will treat you. And seeing oyu said the NC MAX is rubbish at close range......that wasnt a lot of people to begin with.


I still say you need to swap factions if you really need your spray guns to kill infantry.


Now on to the topic: Even if it does take a bit longer to kill a MAX you still have to factor in the shield. You can use that both get to closer and protect yourself while reloading.

I can agree the Hacksaw got a little bit over nerfed.


Overall NC MAXes excell in close range (if one is capable of actualy aiming) against softies (with dual AI scatters/mattocks/grinders you jsut clock on the guy and he is dead), but loose effectivness with range more than other MAXes. Slugs are a partial remedy to the issue but you need to be a good shot with those.

The Shield plays well into compensatign for their range weakness (you can close the distance without taking major damage) and thel ong relad (reloads continue if you put the shield up).


Like someone said before me the NC MAX is good agaisnt infantry medium at aV and poor ish at AA but the bonuses given tobursters by ZOE and lockdown arent al lthat good anymore osits am inor disadvantage.

The one thing aobut current MAXes i dontl ike right now is the Fracture. That thing is way to effective at everything.

[Gatekeeper]

when I play a VS MAX I tend to just 1 shot everybody with those huge ass plasma cannons that also slaughter vehicles.

No. You don't.

I guess you're talking about the Comet, and have failed to notice that it does about half as much damage as the NC Falcon (475 vs 875, according to the wiki here). So as far as I can see, the only way to '1 shot' someone with it would be if you hit an Infiltrator with both arms, or if you're double head-shotting people consistently.

If you're talking about using the Vortex to one-shot people then hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[War Barney]

Sadly mr chewy this is the best you can expect, trolls from the other factions trying to claim our MAX is fine cos they don't want it fixed.

[Shogun]

yeah, giving the max that is worst at killing anything a defense ability, while the effective killer maxes got abilities that make them even more effective in killing really didn´t help.

the balance is screwed up completely, and i am still convinced that this is caused by the low ttk. there just is no range of balance. you are either underpowered or overpowered. there just is no space for a middleground. that´s why there will never be any real balance. not between factions and not between infantry, vehicles and aircrafts. ps1 had this right.

[ChipMHazard]

The Scattermax will never be properly balanced as long as SOE sticks to their shotgun mentality, imo.
Shotguns are inherently effective at close ranges, especially in a game with low TTK, and since a lot of combat is centered around close combat that means the one volley killing Scattermax is going to be seen as being too effective. The problem is however that it's not effective outside of close quarters. So far SOE has been unable to balance the Scattermax, it's been a back and forth battle since the tech test. They keep balancing it the wrong way. The problem with the scatterguns is that they can instagib infantry and the only way they are being balanced is really against other MAXs.

Here's a problem with the F2P model, they can't do what I think needs to be done. Replace the scatterguns with HMGs and possibly give less powerful MAX shotguns to all factions. Give all this shotgun focus bs a rest, the NC don't need shotguns to have hard hitting weapons.
Since that's not an option then the only way I can see the scatterguns become better balanced is if they give them fire modes like in Planetside 1. May still not work with the substantial difference in TTK, but should still be easier to balance.

Also War Barney you can tell those idiots calling other people idiots that they should stop calling other people idiots simply because they don't agree with the people they regard as being idiots.

[Gatekeeper]

The Scattermax will never be properly balanced as long as SOE sticks to their shotgun mentality, imo.
Shotguns are inherently effective at close ranges, especially in a game with low TTK, and since a lot of combat is centered around close combat that means the one volley killing Scattermax is going to be seen as being too effective. The problem is however that it's not effective outside of close quarters. So far SOE has been unable to balance the Scattermax, it's been a back and forth battle since the tech test. They keep balancing it the wrong way. The problem with the scatterguns is that they can instagib infantry and the only way they are being balanced is really against other MAXs.

Here's a problem with the F2P model, they can't do what I think needs to be done. Replace the scatterguns with HMGs and possibly give less powerful MAX shotguns to all factions. Give all this shotgun focus bs a rest, the NC don't need shotguns to have hard hitting weapons.
Since that's not an option then the only way I can see the scatterguns become better balanced is if they give them fire modes like in Planetside 1. May still not work with the substantial difference in TTK, but should still be easier to balance.

Also War Barney you can tell those idiots calling other people idiots that they should stop calling other people idiots simply because they don't agree with the people they regard as being idiots.

You make a sound point, SOE has always struggled to balance shotguns - it's just that much worse with the NC MAXs, because it's a shotgun that only one faction has.

That said, as a regular shotgun user I'm pretty happy with how normal shotguns work now, and the balance between them and SMGs seems decent (shotguns seem overall better to me, but I'm sure opinions differ).

So I think it's reasonable that SOE can take this as a model for balancing NC AI weapons against VS/TR ones - and TBH I suspect that's exactly what they're aiming for.

TBH if NC think the scattercannon is UP and everyone else thinks it's OP, that might just mean we've hit the sweet point of balance already ;)

[Badjuju]

The Scattermax will never be properly balanced as long as SOE sticks to their shotgun mentality, imo.
Shotguns are inherently effective at close ranges, especially in a game with low TTK, and since a lot of combat is centered around close combat that means the one volley killing Scattermax is going to be seen as being too effective. The problem is however that it's not effective outside of close quarters. So far SOE has been unable to balance the Scattermax, it's been a back and forth battle since the tech test. They keep balancing it the wrong way. The problem with the scatterguns is that they can instagib infantry and the only way they are being balanced is really against other MAXs.

Here's a problem with the F2P model, they can't do what I think needs to be done. Replace the scatterguns with HMGs and possibly give less powerful MAX shotguns to all factions. Give all this shotgun focus bs a rest, the NC don't need shotguns to have hard hitting weapons.
Since that's not an option then the only way I can see the scatterguns become better balanced is if they give them fire modes like in Planetside 1. May still not work with the substantial difference in TTK, but should still be easier to balance.

Also War Barney you can tell those idiots calling other people idiots that they should stop calling other people idiots simply because they don't agree with the people they regard as being idiots.

This. Many of us have said this from the beginning. You cannot balance shotguns in a low ttk game. It will be either underpowered or overpowered. Right now of course it melts any max or infantry close to it, but at range it is useless. The biggest issue with them is their ability to kill infantry with out giving them time to react. It is just a bad mechanic all the way around IMO.


I was hoping for HMGs before release as you mentioned chip, and would love to see them go that rout. I would hate of they gave all maxes shot guns though lol.

[Sledgecrushr]

This. Many of us have said this from the beginning. You cannot balance shotguns in a low ttk game. It will be either underpowered or overpowered. Right now of course it melts any max or infantry close to it, but at range it is useless. The biggest issue with them is their ability to kill infantry with out giving them time to react. It is just a bad mechanic all the way around IMO.


I was hoping for HMGs before release as you mentioned chip, and would love to see them go that rout. I would hate of they gave all maxes shot guns though lol.

The thing is that against another max unless you have 1-certed into extended mags or 2-have purchased grinders a nc max is unable to kill another max without a reload. Truly SOE just needs to scrap the shotguns for nc max and give us a line of railgun HMGs.

[Sea of Ink]

Uh... wha??? I'm sort of incredulous here. Yeah, let's nerf the MAX that's already not the best. Makes perfect sense.

I play both VS and NC MAX. My score per minute w/ my ZOE is 407. It's 304 on my NC. I don't play TR MAX, so I can't comment on where it falls. But the VS MAX is far superior to the NC.

Maybe get out and play other factions more in-depth, don't be a complete homer, and then comment on balance?

[MrMak]

I like how barney keeps calling me an "other faction troll" when I only play NC.....

[typhaon]

LOL @ the Falcon being the "best."

The Comet w/ ZOE blows it out of the water. I know, I have a VS alt and absolutely shred TR and NC vehicles with this combo. It's fun! Nice thing, too, with the Comet is that it's not that ineffective vs. infantry.

And for those infantry stats you posted - I don't know what the parameters are supposed to be... or if the page is even working correctly, because there are some obvious problems with some of those stats, if they are supposed to represent current daily averages, or whatever.

[Assist]

The Scattermax will never be properly balanced as long as SOE sticks to their insanely short TTK mentality, imo.


Fixt for you!

[MrMak]

LOL @ the Falcon being the "best."

The Comet w/ ZOE blows it out of the water. I know, I have a VS alt and absolutely shred TR and NC vehicles with this combo. It's fun! Nice thing, too, with the Comet is that it's not that ineffective vs. infantry.

And for those infantry stats you posted - I don't know what the parameters are supposed to be... or if the page is even working correctly, because there are some obvious problems with some of those stats, if they are supposed to represent current daily averages, or whatever.

Thats more of a problem with ZOE than the Falcon.

[Chewy]

And for those infantry stats you posted - I don't know what the parameters are supposed to be... or if the page is even working correctly, because there are some obvious problems with some of those stats, if they are supposed to represent current daily averages, or whatever.

The biggest problem with using ps2-stats.com is that the site uses every point of data since launch. EVERYTHING is used and I have found zero ways to filter out old data on anything. With a single patch that the entire stats site becomes useless thanks to old data.

We need current data people. CURRENT data. PS2-stats.com can never give current data and thus is of no use in a debate like this. Please do better. I want to have a real debate but without the rest of the data it has to wait.

If Cupboy still did his work then it wouldn't be so hard to find this shit. I thank him for what he did and hate those that made him quit.

[War Barney]

Theres no point trying chewy, you have given them facts and figures proving beyond a doubt that the NC MAX is broken but they just give you years old stats and try to say its fine. These people don't want the NC MAX fixed, they like knowing that when it comes to a MAX medic engineer push that they will win because they have the better MAX.

Think of it like this, if the VS MAX was like ours, utterly worthless to the point that people hardly bother with it, would YOU support people trying to make it a force to be reckoned with? Some might but most would just say *nah its fine you're a noob if you can't do well with it*. People like this always try that.


Heres a thought, people who are saying the NC MAX is good why don't you post videos of yourself doing huge killing sprees with it and perhaps some maths to show that the NC MAX does great damage compared to other MAXs. Perhaps you'd even like to explain how its fair that the TR and VS MAX both got a new ability that increases their TTK while the NC MAX got a big useless shield?

[Chewy]

Theres no point trying chewy, you have given them facts and figures proving beyond a doubt that the NC MAX is broken but they just give you years old stats and try to say its fine. These people don't want the NC MAX fixed, they like knowing that when it comes to a MAX medic engineer push that they will win because they have the better MAX.

Think of it like this, if the VS MAX was like ours, utterly worthless to the point that people hardly bother with it, would YOU support people trying to make it a force to be reckoned with? Some might but most would just say *nah its fine you're a noob if you can't do well with it*. People like this always try that.


Heres a thought, people who are saying the NC MAX is good why don't you post videos of yourself doing huge killing sprees with it and perhaps some maths to show that the NC MAX does great damage compared to other MAXs. Perhaps you'd even like to explain how its fair that the TR and VS MAX both got a new ability that increases their TTK while the NC MAX got a big useless shield?

Im unemployed, I only have time to waste. And the math for TR and VS MAX AI weapons is coming. It just needs time and I need time to smooth out miss-spellings and to make the damned things readable. After I get all 3 written out then the comparing will happen so I don't max out 2-4 posts in a row with raw data.

I don't think I can do a TL : DR with a post 3 times the size of my OP without making it an entire post as well. Kinda counter to the point.

[Assist]

Think of it like this, if the VS MAX was like ours, utterly worthless to the point that people hardly bother with it, would YOU support people trying to make it a force to be reckoned with? Some might but most would just say *nah its fine you're a noob if you can't do well with it*. People like this always try that.



You mean like how people on these forums were telling us how the NC MAX was underpowered compared to the VS MAX on release? I believe there's even posts on these forums where NC players, some in this thread, who were telling the VS how amazing their MAX unit is because it could kill something at 100m and the NC MAX couldn't do it in one magazine!

Sorry guy, but if you think anyone on these forums that is TR or VS is going to have any sympathy for the NC MAX users you're dreaming. We were railed over and over by the NC on these forums (Chewy, one of them) about how the hacksaw max wasn't OP, that it wasn't gaining 3x more kph than the other two MAX units. In fact I recall the NC players calling for the NC to receive a better long range AI Weapon for their MAX, because it was so useless past 25m.

Your grievances now about your MAX unit are nothing compared to the power balance between the three MAX units for the first 6 months of the game. Not even on the same level of concern considering how close the NC MAX is performing compared to the VS/TR MAX.

How about you do the math for all three MAX units TTK on a single infantry unit. MAX vs MAX has and always will be an irrelevant stat in PS2. You don't counter a MAX unit with another MAX unit. The only stat that matters for MAX units is their effectiveness against infantry. Show us what the TTK stats are for each gun, against a baseline Light Assault, for each faction. Then we can go on about how unbalanced they are for the millisecond differences.

[Shogun]

i think i will do the evil homer thing now, but change "gimme underslung minigun" to "ttk is too low, no balance is possible until soe changes this"

and post it in every single balance thread.

it totally sucks, that tr and vs have faction perks that matter, while nc only got "hard hitting weapons" that are nerfed to the level of the other factions because any increase would make them instagibbers, what in turn causes tr and vs to cry out.

so our perk is not existent while our tradeoff is still active! we still have silly recoil that makes hitting anything with shot number 2 impossible, while tr and vs weapons almost feel like hitscanners.

i would change faction if i didn´t build up hate for vs and tr for ten years now, and i don´t want to feel like a traitor.

[bpostal]

i think i will do the evil homer thing now, but change "gimme underslung minigun" to "ttk is too low, no balance is possible until soe changes this"...

That's probably closer to the truth. TTK has backed all weapons into a corner.

I don't view the NC weapons as UP though. It's impossible for me to think of them as such. The range that someone has to be to capture a point is just about the perfect range for Grinders (or whatever) to start instagibbing my buddies. If it's shit past that range...than whatever. It's the capture point and choke points that count.

I'm sure if it's really UP and the numbers that SOE is looking at don't jive with what they want then somebody, somewhere will take a look at fixing it.

[War Barney]

Indeed the issue with NC guns seems to be they were based around being very powerful but slower shooting with more recoil BUT with the TTK so low I'm guessing early on they did it way to quickly so they've tuned it down to the point that our guns still have the slow rpm and huge recoil but the damage alas is gone.

As I've shown before the started LMG for the NC is about 150 dps lower than the other 2 cos it has the power but the rpm is so incredibly low and the recoil is amazingly high. The MAXs seem to be the same, sure they have great damage under 10m but you'll still spend half your time reloading and the other half cursing the enemy whos killing you from 20m out

[Chewy]

How about you do the math for all three MAX units TTK on a single infantry unit. MAX vs MAX has and always will be an irrelevant stat in PS2. You don't counter a MAX unit with another MAX unit. The only stat that matters for MAX units is their effectiveness against infantry. Show us what the TTK stats are for each gun, against a baseline Light Assault, for each faction. Then we can go on about how unbalanced they are for the millisecond differences.

You're saying that MAXes should be balanced around infantry? A paid unit that costs 350 res from the same pool as other infantry items, has a timer, can only be pulled from a terminal, and is forced to choose a role needs to be balanced around a free unit that does any and everything.

MAXes should be better than infantry, period. And with how little infantry HP is and the low TTKs for all weapons how the hell would you even start to balance MAXes around infantry? Not only is the TTK low as fuck for all of the MAX AI weapons against infantry you have to account for lag, client side hit detection, human response time, and fire rates. With all of that if you're able to kill in under .7 (a guess) of a second then it is basically an instant kill for the target.

Infantry is not a good thing to balance around. They have no play with their TTK numbers. It's going to be in the .X or .0X of a second ranges. Human reaction time is around .2 and lag I think is .2-.3. So if a TTK is under .5 for the attacker then it is an instant kill for the defender.

You want infantry TTK for TR and VS MAXes? Point blank it takes around 6-9 shots with a ROF of 337-492. So get a sloppy average for those and you get 7.5 shots at 414.5 ROF. The TTK for a 1,000 HP man is .54.

The average TTK on infantry for ALL TR and VS MAX AI weapons is .54 seconds. Sloppy but feels right from looking at tests. Might I remind that .54 is well within the limits of lag and basic reaction time to be counted as an instant kill if the attacking MAX is taking the offense. Maybe the defender has .1-.2 seconds to get out of the MAXes line of sight, maybe.

MAX v infantry is so damn hard to balance for. Costs alone make it so. If MAX v MAX isn't the way to do it and nor MAX v infantry, then what the fuck is good to balance around? MAX v vehicle?

Then there is trying to balance shotguns and HMGs. Chip said it already. You can't balance them. The only way to have balance is to give all factions at least 1 HMG and 1 shotgun. Make it NS and they'll print money. I have been saying that since launch.

[maradine]

Maybe they're not supposed to be perfectly balanced.

[Chewy]

Maybe they're not supposed to be perfectly balanced.

Then why do HMGs beat or just equal shotguns in point blank fights but win hands down in other ranges?

[Rumblepit]

its gonna need to be redone after the TR max buff :)

[Shogun]

give +100% hitpoints for everything in the game. at least!
then there would be a chance to balance things.
we could get our hard hitters without everybody complaining about being instagibbed, and the faction perks could be balanced again. right now, nc has only downsides, but whenever we get a weapon that features our loregiven faction advantage, the other 2 factions cry and our advantage gets nerfed away. but the disadvantage always remains unchanged.

[Lucidius]

NEW META:

1 Gun for Slugs.
1 Gun for Buckshot.

(C) Luci, GU08

[Rumblepit]

thats very true, but everyone always forgets the problems the come with fast rof guns in this game.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZv7Os1jYms its plagued tr weapons since launch.and still do to this day i have hit detection issues with tr weapons.
that compounded with random bullet deviation.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar6vO_K95pQ

you can see it when the test is at 20 m. 2 to 3 bullets out of every 10 will miss no matter what at that range. 30 m 3 to 4 out of every 10 will miss. 40 m 5 to 6.... factor all this in and youll understand why the tr has been sub par .

[Chewy]

thats very true, but everyone always forgets the problems the come with fast rof guns in this game.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZv7Os1jYms its plagued tr weapons since launch.and still do to this day i have hit detection issues with tr weapons.
that compounded with random bullet deviation.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar6vO_K95pQ

you can see it when the test is at 20 m. 2 to 3 bullets out of every 10 will miss no matter what at that range. 30 m 3 to 4 out of every 10 will miss. 40 m 5 to 6.... factor all this in and youll understand why the tr has been sub par .

I hate the no damage crap like the rest, but it isn't a balance thing just a bug that everyone gets. Recently flak has been plagued with no damage while showing effects and it has been killing us from not being able to fight of air.

For the misses Id take a HMG over shotguns with those rite rates. 50% hits at 40m? Thank you sir! Shotguns get to those numbers by 15m-20m and are hurt more by misses thanks to having 1/8 the mag size with 2 times the reload of TR and VS MAXes.

I'll agree that cap points and some bases can be CQC but most of my fights are not. Having to get to a building can be a bigger fight than the one inside it. Hell, just walking around an AMP station going building to building is often full of fights well past 15m. Same with ground floor of tech plants and even bio-labs are filled with areas that are bigger than 15m.

[Gatekeeper]

The balance question posed by the scattercannon isn't that different to shotguns in general - is the up-close killing power worth the loss of ranged ability?

I use shotguns most of the time these days, not just in biolabs and towers, but in all base types (and sometimes between bases, if the cover is decent). I certainly run into situations where I get gunned down at range, but more often than not I can press into CQB and then dominate people who are using longer-ranged weapons.

It's not that shotguns are so powerful that other weapons don't have a chance in CQB, but even a small advantage can make the difference between life and death. If I can kill an LMG user slightly faster than he can kill me, then I win and I get to heal and keep going. That advantage is hard to quantify with pure damage numbers and theory-crafting, but it's a very real thing in the actual game.

So for shotguns in general, I'd say the answer is yes. The trade-off is definitely worth it. Whether it's worth it for scattercannons I can't say, since I don't play NC - but they seem plenty dangerous when I'm playing against them.

[Maginnis]

The balance question posed by the scattercannon isn't that different to shotguns in general - is the up-close killing power worth the loss of ranged ability?



I agree, but keep in mind that the real issue is not just TTK, but also overall function. How does the element perform in real-world terms?

Question #1: Can the TR/VS/NC Max be used effectively to control a point with proper infantry support? In general, I would argue all 3 Max units can. The Aegis shield is quite good for helping to hold control points, provided the room in question allows some range of movement. If the room is too small or in a hallway, the shield does little to prevent a suicide C4/AP mine attack, and it also does nothing to prevent the room from being stormed. These threats are real for any faction’s Max units.

My point is, in many tactical situations, the real threat is not small-arms from a few infantry. All Max units can handle a few infantry at a time when supported by friendly infantry. I think any objective person can agree on my points thus far?

To my real point: Where does the real difference lie between the factions’ Max units? Suppressive fire at medium range is the key difference in my opinion. Both the TR and VS maxes have the clip size and reserve ammo capability to spam entry points in larger infantry fights at medium range. This includes flight pad doorways in bio labs, garages in towers, and certainly doorways into rooms which have control points. The NC Max is effective at point-blank or under 10m. It’s useful for close-range choke point control primarily.

Why does this matter in PS2? Simple… the game is focused around territory control, and effectively resource control. Max units are the only infantry unit that can’t be insta-gibbed by 1-2 head shots or a grenade (excluding HA with an active shield). This means they are a critical part of both offense and defensive infantry actions in fights larger than squad v squad. Since the NC max is good for choke points primarily, their use in many fights is questionable, especially from an offensive standpoint. For VS, ZOE plus Blueshift allows VS maxes to move around bases pretty well, especially tech plants and amp stations where there is a fair amount of cover, and TR maxes can be used for suppressive fire at very decent ranges with fractures (not saying OP, but decent and with good survivability due to range).

Going back to Aegis shield, it makes NC Max units tougher to kill from the frontal arc. This is cool, but as others have said, it prevents the Max from firing, and it has a minor delay. Without collision detection, it has no impact on room-clearing game mechanics (grenades), it can’t stop infantry from running past you through a doorway to drop AP mines/C4, and it does nothing to mitigate concussion or flashbangs. This means that it’s of limited usefulness in protracted standoffs and its use functionally eliminates the NC Max from a firepower standpoint when activated.

Since the patch, I’ve noticed the sharp increase in TTK with my Max, to the point where I don’t pull it much anymore, unless I’m doing ops outfit with 2+ outfit squads and they ask for Maxes. Yes, I can still kill infantry 1v1. It’s not completely broken, but honestly, why spend the resources when I can kill more quickly, have more utility, and often stay alive longer as Heavy Assault?

I have spent a reasonable number of certs on my max, but I'm extremely hesitant to spend a additional station cash for new weapons and another 1000 certs for extended mags on Max with almost no range and a tiny ammo reserve. I don't see that there's enough value there. I plan to continue to monitor the topic to see if anything is tweaked enough to make the NC Max more viable.

[AThreatToYou]

I would either suggest a NS Infantry weapon that would allow all MAXs to be competitive at range, or change the ScatMAX to be a more accurate mid to long range platform and then provide an NS MAX shotgun.

Instead of close range bang-em-up scenarios where MAX units are already vulnerable [to C4/deci], and may need to be balanced on an extreme of UP or OP, I say we switch the NC MAX to the niche that is generally associated with weapons that pack a higher damage per shot with a lower ROF: mid to long range. We then keep the other MAX units in the niche generally associated with high ROF, closer ranges [aside from Blueshift max].

My other point with that is, I don't want "just another" MAX. The ScatMAX is unique relative to the other ones. I want to keep it that way. Giving our MAXs a longer-range AI option would also help us deal with Harassers, which we are a bit gimped on by not having either the Lancer or the FracMAX.

[Chewy]

I would either suggest a NS Infantry weapon that would allow all MAXs to be competitive at range, or change the ScatMAX to be a more accurate mid to long range platform and then provide an NS MAX shotgun.

Instead of close range bang-em-up scenarios where MAX units are already vulnerable [to C4/deci], and may need to be balanced on an extreme of UP or OP, I say we switch the NC MAX to the niche that is generally associated with weapons that pack a higher damage per shot with a lower ROF: mid to long range. We then keep the other MAX units in the niche generally associated with high ROF, closer ranges [aside from Blueshift max].

My other point with that is, I don't want "just another" MAX. The ScatMAX is unique relative to the other ones. I want to keep it that way. Giving our MAXs a longer-range AI option would also help us deal with Harassers, which we are a bit gimped on by not having either the Lancer or the FracMAX.

So a Gauss Saw copy? Maybe with a 300 ROF and 170-180 damage at 10m and 120-130 at 75m with a mag size of 45 and ammo pool of 360 (9 mags total like the others)?

On paper that sounds good to me. But without having it in game to feel the COF I couldn't say if it would be.

[Gatekeeper]

I think a NS MAX weapon that's effective at range would be a good addition - then NC who really don't like using shotguns will still have an AI option. It would need to be balanced so as to give VS & TR some kind of utility as well though.

Also a mid-long range NS MAX weapon would compliment the MAX flame-throwers well, whenever they get around to adding those.