MAX Balnace Part 4: Everything AI

[Chewy]

Link
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-4-everything-ai.139234/

Copy



-WARRING-
Long *** post below. There will be no TL : DR. If you don't bother to read, then Im not going to bother to read either. Fair is fair after all.
_end_

First you need to see everything. If you don't read these links then you will not know all of the details.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-1-nc.138919/
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-2-tr.139047/
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-3-vs.139055/

Once you know the details (or skipped them like a lazy *******) it's time to compare them all. Everything I am using to compare is going to come from those link above. That is the reason I am doing this. To show once and for all just how ****** MAX balance is for AI weapons. Please do not bring up MAX AV or AA weapons into this. They need their own work to get the math for them. I can not do the same tests and use the same numbers for AV and AA that I used for AI. Damage resistances make that impossible, having each AV weapon use its own rules does the same. There will also be NO TL : DR.


With that out of the way, lets start. More or less the hard parts are over with the getting of the data and making it readable. This post is simply to put it all in once place and use it all against each other so see how is the best. Player skill and luck will change things but that is for the better and the worse. The facts are if something can't do well in perfect tests then it has less odds of doing well in the chaos of live gameplay.

First up is this. A sum of the tests results for ranges between 0m and 30m. Please note that NC data is for 0m, 10m, 15m, and 20m and TR/VS data is for 0m, 10m, 20m, and 30m. I was forced to cut the NC data like so because of NC weapons failing to kill with entire ammo pools at 30m for about 3 of the 4 AI weapons.

NC MAX AI weapons. Results in order of 0m 10m 15m 20m.
Scattercannon-
0% miss _______12.24% miss____38.56% miss___53.7% miss
5.96 TTK_______6.57 TTK_______17.51 TTK ____31 TTK
1,677.85 DPS___ 1,522.07 DPS___571.1 DPS____ 322.58 DPS

Hacksaw-
0% miss________39.63% miss ___58.35% miss____68.07% miss
6.01 TTK _______11.63 TTK _____32.33 TTK _____80.66 TTK
1,663.89 DPS ___859.84 DPS ____309.31 DPS ___123.97 DPS

Grinder-
0% miss _______26.9% miss _____49.94% miss ___63.76% miss
2.16 TTK _______7.63 TTK ______16.1 TTK ______32.53 TTK
4,629.62 DPS ___1,310.61 DPS ___621.11 DPS ____307.4 DPS

Mattock-
0% miss ______2.92% miss _____26.46% miss ____46.13% miss
6.3 TTK _______6.32 TTK ______7.52 TTK _______13.26 TTK
1,587.3 DPS ___1582.27 DPS ___1,329.78 DPS ___754.14 DPS



TR MAX AI weapons.Results in order of 0m, 10m, 20m, 30m

Heavy Cycler
0% miss________2.87% miss_____38.15% miss___59.02% miss
5.17 TTK_______5.4 TTK________8.67 TTK______16.4 TTK
1,934.23 DPS___1,851.85 DPS___1,153.4 DPS___609.75 DPS

Onslaught
0% miss________<1% miss_______35.58% miss__52.81% miss
4.8 TTK________5.12 TTK_______11.03 TTK____17.34 TTK
2,083.33 DPS___1,953.12 DPS___906.61 DPS___576.7 DPS

Mutilator
0% miss________<1% miss_______42.92% miss____55.54% miss
5.17 TTK_______5.25 TTK_______9.4 TTK________12.35 TTK
1,934.23 DPS___1,904.76 DPS___1,063.82 DPS___809.71 DPS

Mercy
0% miss________<1% miss_______24.88% miss__41.17% miss
5.63 TTK_______5.3 TTK________10.5 TTK_____12.57 TTK
1,776.19 DPS___1,886.79 DPS___952.38 DPS___795.54 DPS



VS MAX AI weapons. Results in order of 0m, 10m, 20m, 30m.

Quasar
0% miss________<1% miss_______35.23% miss____51.61% miss
5.25 TTK_______5.34 TTK_______8.41 TTK_______14.31 TTK
1,904.76 DPS___1,872.65 DPS___1,189.06 DPS___698.81

Nebula
0% miss________<1% miss______35.36% miss____54.43% miss
4.85 TTK_______4.92 TTK_______9.82 TTK_______14.71 TTK
2,061.85 DPS___2,032.52 DPS___1,018.32 DPS___679.8 DPS

Cosmos
0% miss________<1% miss_______39.2% miss_____53.98% miss
5.25 TTK_______5.28 TTK_______8.96 TTK_______12.11 TTK
1,904.76 DPS___1,893.93 DPS___1,116.07 DPS___825.76 DPS

Blueshift
0% miss________<1% miss_______<1% miss_______12.63% miss
5.65 TTK_______5.79 TTK_______6.55 TTK_______11.88 TTK
1,769.91 DPS___1,727.11 DPS___1,526.71 DPS___841.75 DPS


-------------------------------------------------------

Now to do a side by side for common ranges. Sadly NC weapons can't go to 30m but for 1 maybe 2 from ammo pool limits. So I will limit to 0m, 10m, and 20m for all 3 and only use TR and VS for 30m. The 15m tests for NC will be ignored as there are no TR/VS tests for the same range. The 30m tests I will assume NC is a no contest.

The weapon order for the list will be as such.
Default (Sact, Heavy C, Quasar)
Fast firing (Hacksaw, Onslaught, Nebula)
Big mag (Grinder, Mutilator, Cosmos)
High aim (Mattock, Mercy, Blueshift)


TTK-
0m_________10m________20m________30m
TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
NC>TR>VS__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
TR>VS>NC__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC


Totals
1st_____2nd__3rd
NC- 1___0____15
TR- 5___11___0
VS- 10__5____1

No contest in my opinion VS MAXes take the lead hands down in TTK.


DPS-
0m_________10m________20m________30m
TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
NC>TR>VS__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC
TR>VS<NC__TR>VS>NC__VS>TR>NC__VS>TR>NC

Total
1st______2nd__3rd
NC-1____0____15
TR- 5____11___0
VS- 10___5____1

Iv seen this before.


I could do one for miss %, but this is depressing. NC as 1, just ONE, place it has a better TTK and DPS and that is point blank with Grinders. NC MAXes are **** according to this data. While TR is the middle of the road AI MAX without having to worry about much at all. VS on the other hand are GODS. Look at the data and you'll see that Tr and VS stats are so close that you can more than argue that they can be equal. Being .0X off in TTK is not a thing one can use to gloat.

I ask again. How the hell does the VS have a bad MAX? No. No, the question is now a "HOW THE ****" not a "How the hell". From what Iv looked at in the GU updates the weapons they have now are damn close to what they had at launch! Some even said VS MAXes got nerfed.

Where is the OP in NC MAXes? I don't see **** that even hints at OP. In fact I see NC MAXes as the worst of the 3 BY FAR! You know what? NC players have been saying this for months now. Now we have proof saying it.

I wait for the debate. But if you guys don't bring your A game and do better than the **** site PS2-stats.com that CAN'T give current data then I feel sorry for this community. Spin this as you can. I hunger for the fight.

(extra edit)
:domotwak:

[OCNSethy]

Thanks for all your hard work. I hope that SOE will come to the same conclusion and do something with the NC Max.

[Wahooo]

Why didn't you use slugs for the NC max at distance?
I'd kinda like to know where they fit in, not saying they skew the scale but they make a difference.

But I AM saying you were one who was saying the NC maxes weren't OP when they were for months after release till the shotgun nerf... same nerf that hit the mercys BTW which hit the pocket of a lot of TR BTW.

Right now the TTK differences in situations MAX on MAX encounters happen is pretty damn close, back to the balance the game has in most situations. Whoever shoots first gets the kill.

[Chewy]

Why didn't you use slugs for the NC max at distance?
I'd kinda like to know where they fit in, not saying they skew the scale but they make a difference.

But I AM saying you were one who was saying the NC maxes weren't OP when they were for months after release till the shotgun nerf... same nerf that hit the mercys BTW which hit the pocket of a lot of TR BTW.

Right now the TTK differences in situations MAX on MAX encounters happen is pretty damn close, back to the balance the game has in most situations. Whoever shoots first gets the kill.

Slugs are a cert option. I can't use them for a test without adding some kind of cert option for TR and VS to keep things fair. Also slugs need 20 hits to kill a MAX at 0m. The buffs against infantry isn't worth it when you account for the lost effectiveness against everything else in my opinion.

And yes, I defended NC MAXes at launch and still have tests from then. Though I did agree that Hacksaws back then was a bit much in ROF, but I never used them. I was and still are a pure Mattock user. Back then Hacksaws did this.
NC MAX Hacksaw tests (outdated) - YouTube

MAX v MAX
0m 12
10m 15.8 average
20 56

I not certain of the stats but I think Hacksaws had a RPS of 5. Searching the official forums for something I found that they had a 200ms fire rate. If Im right then a RPS of 5 should be right. That means dual RPS should be 10. Give me a moment.

0m
12/10=1.2 TTK
10,000/1.2=8,333.33 DPS

10m
15.8/10+4= 5.58 TTK
10,000/5.58= 1,792.11 DPS

20m
56/10+12=17.6 TTK
10,000/17.6= 568.18 DPS

Now look at the stats above in my OP. Hacksaws win at 0m but loose at 10m and 20m. They was shotguns back then and did what shotguns do by fucking someones day at point blank at the cost of longer ranges. Look at them side by side.

Order- NC TR VS and for just the fast firing weapons.

0m
1.2--4.8--4.85

10m
5.58--5.12--4.92

20m
17.6--11.03--9.82

Shotguns won at CQC back then and lost at anything else. Isn't that the point of shotguns?

[ChipMHazard]

Shotguns won at CQC back then and lost at anything else. Isn't that the point of shotguns?

The same old [bad] argument. Yes, shotguns are normally supposed to be effective at close range. No, that's doesn't mean that they get to be as powerful as they have been on more than one occasion, and still kinda are against infantry. At least in the sense of depriving infantry of a chance to retaliate in close quarters.
It was a bad idea at the start to allow scatterguns to one salvo infantry and it's still a bad idea now; some of the level design simply isn't designed around having Scattermaxes hiding behind corners and camping primary/secondary objectives.
Scatterguns being ineffective at range, without slugs, means this "_" much in a Bio Lab fight. Or to put it in another way... Close quarter oriented weapons are not particularly situational when you have to play the objective.

Too bad for NC players that SOE decided to make Scattermaxes weaker against other MAXes, by reducing their ability to lay down sustained fire, instead of trying to solve the "one salvo" puzzle. One could make the argument that making them weaker against other MAXes is a good thing since that gives VS/TR another counter.
Personally I would still prefer it if they just reworked the scatterguns, like having three fire modes for different ranges, instead of constantly trying to tweak their current stats. But that's probably not going to happen because it's F2P.
So yes, based on what I've been told my MAX players with far more experience than myself is that the NC MAX is the weakest against other MAXes.

[War Barney]

Well a huge load of data and testing proving that NC MAXs are useless compared to other MAXs... As somebody in my outfit said though, I'm just waiting for the TR/VS to come and say

*I counter your vast amount of testing and data with my random opinion!*

[OmegaPREDATOR]

Nice work Chewy.

I like the conclusions. I will continue to use my dual hacksaw in biolab, it's still funny and wait for a smaller COF.

PS : With the new design I will love to have a NS walker 30 max gun. Would be fun to have machineguns as TR !!!

[Rolfski]

Nice work. It doesn't change my opinion that equipping NC maxes with shotguns while depriving them from a decent ranged capability was a bad design choice in the first place, though.

Question: Did you balance tested these maxes with extended mags in mind? Because that should be the norm for balance testing imo.

[Rumblepit]

Thanks for all your hard work. I hope that SOE will come to the same conclusion and do something with the NC Max.


they did their math, and the in game data shows that the tr max is way behind the nc and vs max. nc max can still kill infantry before the player can even say ohshit.
and you think it should be buffed???nc and vs maxes are on par, with tr following way behind.

to bad you cant extract the numbers they use, maxes pulled per faction, kills per max, avg life span, these numbers show nc and vs are balanced, and the tr max is lacking everywhere. you guys even see the damage the tr max weapons do?
we have a max that dual wields smgs lol .

fyi nc maxes still do this
NC MAX Hacksaw tests (outdated) - YouTube

dont even have the chance to say ohshit.

[Blynd]

are you using default or with lockdown and zoe active ???

[War Barney]

they did their math, and the in game data shows that the tr max is way behind the nc and vs max. nc max can still kill infantry before the player can even say ohshit.
and you think it should be buffed???nc and vs maxes are on par, with tr following way behind.

to bad you cant extract the numbers they use, maxes pulled per faction, kills per max, avg life span, these numbers show nc and vs are balanced, and the tr max is lacking everywhere. you guys even see the damage the tr max weapons do?
we have a max that dual wields smgs lol .

fyi nc maxes still do this
NC MAX Hacksaw tests (outdated) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZmnefnXY_Q&list=PLpQvz_FpwvRrVBXMqakoKurv5eKFfOVrF&index=18)

dont even have the chance to say ohshit.

You realise theres math heres show conclusively thats NOT the case and that NC MAXs are the underpowered ones? Would you like to give us YOUR maths to prove the TR MAX is useless cos I'm afraid right now we just have maths proving the opposite

[Chewy]

are you using default or with lockdown and zoe active ???

Nice work. It doesn't change my opinion that equipping NC maxes with shotguns while depriving them from a decent ranged capability was a bad design choice in the first place, though.

Question: Did you balance tested these maxes with extended mags in mind? Because that should be the norm for balance testing imo.

All tests are done with stock MAXes. Outside of weapons there is no cert options at all used. No extended mags, no abilities, no armor, nothing but bare bones weapons and stock targets. To add one cert option for one MAX I would have to add an option for the rest.


The same old [bad] argument. Yes, shotguns are normally supposed to be effective at close range. No, that's doesn't mean that they get to be as powerful as they have been on more than one occasion, and still kinda are against infantry. At least in the sense of depriving infantry of a chance to retaliate in close quarters.
It was a bad idea at the start to allow scatterguns to one salvo infantry and it's still a bad idea now; some of the level design simply isn't designed around having Scattermaxes hiding behind corners and camping primary/secondary objectives.
Scatterguns being ineffective at range, without slugs, means this "_" much in a Bio Lab fight. Or to put it in another way... Close quarter oriented weapons are not particularly situational when you have to play the objective.

Too bad for NC players that SOE decided to make Scattermaxes weaker against other MAXes, by reducing their ability to lay down sustained fire, instead of trying to solve the "one salvo" puzzle. One could make the argument that making them weaker against other MAXes is a good thing since that gives VS/TR another counter.
Personally I would still prefer it if they just reworked the scatterguns, like having three fire modes for different ranges, instead of constantly trying to tweak their current stats. But that's probably not going to happen because it's F2P.
So yes, based on what I've been told my MAX players with far more experience than myself is that the NC MAX is the weakest against other MAXes.

If NC MAXes are not an equal to TR and VS MAXes but TR and VS MAXes are a counter to NC MAXes then what does NC have to counter TR and VS MAXes? Also slugs in a bio-lab a worse than shot. Let be copy my numbers from the official forums on dual Mattock shot v slugs

Order Shot, slug
0m- 6.3--7.13
10m- 6.32--7.13
20m- 7.72--12.26
30m- 13.26--12.93

For Mattocks shot is far better than slugs for up to 20m and only after that would slugs be a better choice. Then you have to ask are slugs going to do the job at those ranges with how slugs act against live targets. Slugs are not worth it in my opinion.

Then you have the old bio-lab talk of it being a hunting ground for NC MAXes. Here's a video of someone running around a bio-lab with his render distance set to 15m.
NC Max Effective Range - YouTube

There are plenty of places in a bio-lad that go far beyond a NC MAXes effective range even with extended mag.


they did their math, and the in game data shows that the tr max is way behind the nc and vs max. nc max can still kill infantry before the player can even say ohshit.
and you think it should be buffed???nc and vs maxes are on par, with tr following way behind.

to bad you cant extract the numbers they use, maxes pulled per faction, kills per max, avg life span, these numbers show nc and vs are balanced, and the tr max is lacking everywhere. you guys even see the damage the tr max weapons do?
we have a max that dual wields smgs lol .

fyi nc maxes still do this
(vid snip)

dont even have the chance to say ohshit.

Did I not post the infantry TTK for the heavy C here yet? (looking) Nope. Let me get that for you.

Sacttercannon v infantry
TTKs
0m- 0ish
10m- .66
15m- 1
20m- 2.3

Heavy C v infantry
TTKs
0m- .52
10m- .79
20m- 1.38
30m- 1.8

Side by side
Order NC TR
0m- 0ish-.52
10m- .66 - .79
20m- 2.3 - 1.38

If you account for lag (.2-.3) and human reaction time (.2) then it's easy to say that a sub 1 TTK can be an instant kill or the target will have around .1-.3 seconds to GTFO and find cover. Then you have to think about moving targets. NC MAXes have very hard ammo limits, TR and VS MAXes can lay down lead if needed.

I see something of balance with MAX v infantry numbers when talking about shotguns and HMGs.

[ChipMHazard]

If NC MAXes are not an equal to TR and VS MAXes but TR and VS MAXes are a counter to NC MAXes then what does NC have to counter TR and VS MAXes? Also slugs in a bio-lab a worse than shot. Let be copy my numbers from the official forums on dual Mattock shot v slugs

All the normal counters. Neither VS nor TR can instantly kill enemy HA, as an example. You won't get a lot of time to fire of that rocket, but you can. Like I wrote it's just something one could argue, not necessarily something I think is true myself.
Never wrote that slugs were better in a Bio Lab. Just that the Scattermaxes' max effective range doesn't really come into play all that often because of the level design.

For Mattocks shot is far better than slugs for up to 20m and only after that would slugs be a better choice. Then you have to ask are slugs going to do the job at those ranges with how slugs act against live targets. Slugs are not worth it in my opinion.

No idea if they are worth it. The devs obviously inteded for them to fill the range gap. Not how I would have done it myself.

Then you have the old bio-lab talk of it being a hunting ground for NC MAXes. Here's a video of someone running around a bio-lab with his render distance set to 15m.

There are plenty of places in a bio-lad that go far beyond a NC MAXes effective range even with extended mag.

So what? Plenty of places where you can force the enemy to come into instagib range. More importantly, plenty of important areas where you can force players into instagib range if they intend to play the objectives. Actually those areas almost always force players into close quarters combat.
Bio Labs are Scattermax hunting grounds.

[bpostal]

...
*I counter your vast amount of testing and data with my random opinion!*

Except I don't believe your math and statistics and my random opinion is based on first hand experience.
Math and numbers exist in a vacuum, experience does not.

[War Barney]

How about you do the maths then if you think he has diddled the results. There are actually videos done with the testing so you can use them if you want or go do it yourself completely afresh.

Does nobody else find it disgusting and ridiculous that people are basically looking at figures proving the NC MAX is useless and saying *no the NC MAX is awesome* thats like looking at somebody whos just built you a car that works and during the drive saying *no this car is still back at the garage broken*.

I know you guys don't want to accept it but unless you want to do the maths yourself you have to accept these figures show the NC MAX is by far the WORST MAX. And lets not forget this was done with NO abilities so you might try to say *oh but slugs* well I can counter *oh but hunker down and zealot drive*. These are things which will improve the TTK for the VS and TR MAX, you can add the shield if you want it wont increase our TTK at all....

So please if you want to try and say he's wrong do the mats yourself first, don't come in here saying *but I died once to a NC MAX so they must be the best MAX in the game*

[MrMak]

Those diferences are less than a second at close ranges except for the grinder.

Should also be noted that Scattercannons and Mattocks with extended mags would probalby have similar TTK to the grinder while the VS and TR guns would brarely benefit that much since their reloads are faster andm from what ive seenm they usualy use one mag anyway.

Also seems peculiar the Mattock without slugs actualy outpreforms everything except the Blueshift at 15 meters by a good margin.


They could use some minor tweaking to do a little extra damage agaisnt maxes but apart from that they are far from useless especialy in their neiche.

[War Barney]

In this game a second makes a big difference and these are done without zealot or hunker down which would improve the TTK even further. How can you take these figures shows the NC MAX is worthless at all but point blank (and even at point blank out performed in a lot of areas) and try to say its not so bad?

[ChipMHazard]

In this game a second makes a big difference and these are done without zealot or hunker down which would improve the TTK even further. How can you take these figures shows the NC MAX is worthless at all but point blank (and even at point blank out performed in a lot of areas) and try to say its not so bad?

You won't get anywhere by exaggerating. It's not worthless when you get outside of close range, it's just not as effective.
Are they good enough at range? No, but then again I also think they are too good close up against infantry.

[maradine]

I'm having difficulty understanding how NC max weaponry is so allegedly underpowered and yet the same weaponry is the primary statistical killer on the ground. You don't get to start a post with "DAMN YOUR STATISTICS I DECLARE THEM INVALID" with much hope of not raising a few eyebrows. This incongruity needs to be explained before I take any of this seriously.

[MrMak]

A second yes. Heck the 3 or so seconds granted by the grinder (and likely scattergun with extended mags) at close range are pretty significant. But 0.3 doesnt realy make much of adifference. The first person to fire will win with such a low TTK difference anyway. And thats excluding a whole bunch of other variables you see in an actual fight

If oyu want to take the ZOE and Lockdown into account you also have to take the Aegis and the ZOE damage penalty into acocunt aswell.


How much ZOE affects the time it takes to kill the VS needs to be tested.

Same with the Aegis. But so far from my experiance even at just level 2 it can abosrb and impressive ammount of small arms fire. with this in mind, depending on the range you could even use the Aegis to get up close and personal, and even behind a lockdown MAX.

Never actualy did it on acount that I rarely run into a lockdown max that doesnt have an entire squad backing it up. In which case the TR either have an overwhelming force locking down the building or a massive push just wipes them out and I dont realy have to do it scince he is usualy dead or retreating by the time I would get to him.

You should also take Slug ammunition into acocunt. Especialy with the Mattock which seems pretty darn good at range even without them.

[War Barney]

Those statistics people like to use include all kills from every single point in the games life, get us stats for the last week and lets see how they stack up. This is one of the major issues with this game and what will lead to its death before its time if it aint stopped, people who want a easy ride so will deny even in the face of facts that something is underpowered if its on the enemy side.

And MrMak if he does that he needs to take zealot into account and hunker down which improves the TTK for your MAXs a LOT more than slugs will affect ours trust me. If you want it to happen though I'm sure he will be happy to show how insanely good your guns are with those abilities compared to our shield.

And please try using our MAX shield before you say its good compared to the immense killing power other MAX abilities give them, hunker down can make a MAX a absolutely terrifying AA turret or able to completely shutdown access to a room. Sure the shield can take a lot of damage but they put out no damage while its up and a hunkered down TR MAX will take it down fast enough.

[MrMak]

I love how you keep exagerating everything out of propeortions. Especialy how that 15% (At Max Rank) fire rate boost for bursters makes the lockdown MAX "absolutely terrifying". All while completly dismissing any weeknesses the enemy may have. Its realy classic forumside when you think about it.

And a proper test is not ZOE and Lockdown vs Slugs. Its ZOE vs Lockdown vs Aegis and then slugs having the same tests done as all the other guns along with all the guns being tested with extended mags.


NC maxes dont need "fixing" becouse they are not "broken". The only thing that they might need is slight tweaking against other MAXes and a fire rate buff to the hacksaw. And even THAT needs more extensive testing than just shooting buckshot at up to 20 meters.


Edit: Did some quick testing.

Slugs bring the TTK down to about 10 seconds at 20 meters for the Mattock and 11ish for the Scattergun.


Also Extended mags bring point blank TTK for both the Scattergun and Mattock to the same level as the grinder. The reson the Grindar has such a big difference is that it has 2 extra shots which enable it to kill an enemy MAX without relaoding. Extended mags give the same aility to the Scattercangun Mattock and even Hacksaw boostign their point blank TTK to the point where the other MAXes cant even compete.

[maradine]

Those statistics people like to use include all kills from every single point in the games life, get us stats for the last week and lets see how they stack up.

That would be a good explanation.

[Wahooo]

There is no equivalent cert to slugs. You know why? The devs recognized the need for shotguns to be useful beyond point blank. Therefore slugs, and the reason there is no equivalent cert for VS/TR.

Barney it doesn't help your case when you rail on and on in an over the top manner. "Worthless" doesn't help your case. They are far from worthless.

Also I keep seeing on and on about TR lockdown. Really? Barney, how about this before you mention lock down again, get on a TR max and start using it versus infantry/maxes... preferably against your weak ass NC and let us know how it goes. drone on about other people not being informed and yet you keep repeating the most ignorant, uninformed, shit out your ass statements.

[War Barney]

*facepalm* I have tested it out, its great! Oh and I think we all know its not just a boost to rpm its also a 50% reload speed increaser. Don't forget one of its most amazing features in your big to stop NC MAXs being fixed.

[bpostal]

...
Math and numbers exist in a vacuum, experience does not.

I'm going to clarify this statement because the underlying conclusion I've reached seems to have been missed.

Fights between MAXes is, for a vast majority of the time, supported by engineers, medics and more MAX units. The math itself is, I'm sure, spot on (or as close to it as it's going to get).

Thus, the TTK that one needs to figure in is not simply 1v1 but the time to kill for each and every single person in the fight. How fast can a MAX clear a room? Math isn't going to help unless all factors are taken into consideration. Even if you think just about the abilities: You can't use Aegis shield without getting shot in the back. You can't use Lockdown (a much more worthless and situational ability than I thought when I first heard we were getting it) without getting C4'd by some MERC. You can't use ZOE without every single motherfucker who can see you shooting at you.

The math is assuming a vacuum, a fair fight. Fair fights don't exist in this game. The simple fact is that at very close ranges the ScatMAX is still close to instagib whilst absolute shit beyond that range.
If this means that the NC MAX is absolutely terrible then you need to take into account the fact that when you're playing the objective, you're talking close quarters infantry combat for a majority of the time. This gives the NC MAX the advantage (Unless Fractures TBH) when defending, and when used in conjunction with MAX Charge, assaulting.

I have no math, I have little to no facts. Just the truth as I see it. This truth, is that all factions have their ups and downs and balance is always ongoing.

[MrMak]

Hate to break this to ya Barney. But at close range an NC MAX with Grinderes or extended mags still has lower TTK than Heavy cycler max on lockdown. As far as MAXes are concerned, lockdown only shaves off about a second from the TTK.


Oh and before you come up and say thet if you put extended mags on the Heavy Cyclers its gonna destroy the NC MAX.....it odesnt matter. Most VS and TR AI weapons are able to kill a MAX up close without reloading so extended Mags have no bearing on TTK like they do for the NC MAXes.

VS and TR may have a higher killing totential per mag and more sustained fireopower. But then it comes to simply killing something fast, NC is king.

[blashyrk]

NC MAXes are godly when it comes to defending and attacking control points (at least ones which are indoors which is most of the control points in the game), especially in biolabs.

I understand that NC players feel bad about their MAXes lacking variety but I think they take for granted the extreme CQC force multiplayer that is the NC MAX. And if it ever gets buffed for medium range because of "The grass is greener" syndrome (and that would also require it to get nerfed in CQC encounters) I think they would actually be at a loss.

[SternLX]

Sorry, I don't play Excelspreadsheetside.

Experience is the name of my game and I can tell you this as a VS MAX driver. I see an NC MAX to this day while suited up in my MAX, I keep my distance. ZOE OFF and back the hell up! Get ready for the MAX Rush. Sure enough NC MAX driver rushes while I keep pouring fire in his direction, flip ZOE on and Side strafe away very quickly if possible. Whether I have ZOE on or not makes no diff. If the NC MAX gets within 10 to 15m I'm done. Period. The only way I can last for any Length of time is to run full Kinetic Armor. But most of us opt for Flak because of C4 trolls and Rocket launcher noobs.

[Wahooo]

*facepalm* I have tested it out, .

I call bullshit. VR doesn't count.

I've played YEARS of TR max with lock down. It is very situational and the downside to the mobility can be out right rage inducing if you are caught at the wrong time.

[bpostal]

I call bullshit. VR doesn't count.

I've played YEARS of TR max with lock down. It is very situational and the downside to the mobility can be out right rage inducing if you are caught at the wrong time.

Keep in mind, we don't have towers like we used to. Ahh...those were the days.

[TheAadvark]

Picture this , your a TR MAX you find a nice spot. The enemy push will begin soon. You have some squad engineers and your locked down.

NC maxes come into view they pop their shields their engis's hide behind them, light assaults come from above in every direction , grenades, rocket launchers, C4 etc. before you know it all your engineers are dead, your at half life and you need to move 2 feet to the left to somehow make an escape , then you have to undeploy by the time the animation is done your dead.

The problem with lockdown is that we need an entire squad or more watching our backs, repairing us, and even healing our engi's. It takes such a coordinated effort to keep our maxes up, while yours doesn't (VS and NC) not to the same degree anyway.

The one place THE ONE PLACE our lock down kicks ass is just inside the landing pads on bio labs. Every one is funneled to us and we don't need to worry about our backs and light assaults are all outside.

Not saying anything about the NC max or the VS max , but stop saying lockdown is so great, it is absolutely fucking not.

[War Barney]

Picture this , your a TR MAX you find a nice spot. The enemy push will begin soon. You have some squad engineers and your locked down.

NC maxes come into view they pop their shields their engis's hide behind them, light assaults come from above in every direction , grenades, rocket launchers, C4 etc. before you know it all your engineers are dead, your at half life and you need to move 2 feet to the left to somehow make an escape , then you have to undeploy by the time the animation is done your dead.

The problem with lockdown is that we need an entire squad or more watching our backs, repairing us, and even healing our engi's. It takes such a coordinated effort to keep our maxes up, while yours doesn't (VS and NC) not to the same degree anyway.

The one place THE ONE PLACE our lock down kicks ass is just inside the landing pads on bio labs. Every one is funneled to us and we don't need to worry about our backs and light assaults are all outside.

Not saying anything about the NC max or the VS max , but stop saying lockdown is so great, it is absolutely fucking not.

Picture this, the light assaults die very quickly to the lockdowned MAX when they come out of cover, the shields go down pretty quickly with rockets to the fact and the MAX is moving slow as hell while putting down no fire themself anyway. The attack falters as your main pusher isn't doing any damage just trying to soak it up and the only way the shield helps is if you hide behind it so you can't shoot either.

[MrMak]

Ficture this. At lcose range a MAX with a grindor or a scatergun with extended mags will still kill the lockdown max faster. Especialy that at those ranges the shield will easily survive long enaugh and even the charge wil lbe nenught to get behind you. At ranges where lockdown gives an advantage the NC heavies love you for standing still and eating rockets.

Lockdown is a great tool againstsquishies, but by itself it is more of a vunerability than an advantage.

Buts lets just ignore facts and keep repeating your flawed preception of reality till it becomes true.


I mean after the magrider got hit with the nerf bat the Vanu kept repeating that they are the weakest and ugliest faction untill they made it come true.

[Rumblepit]

im sorry but having a player sit in vr shooting targets and doing math wont get you the results needed to provide balance in game. the in game data shows tr maxes are lacking, this is what the devs said, not some player in the VR,no offence chewy.extract the numbers from the API and you will see TR pull more maxes, they get less kills per max than any other faction,and they dont live as long as other maxes... this is why they need a buff. chewy dose one of these threads every time there is talk of a max nerf/buff.
and every time we see the same results......... NC maxes need to be buffed.

im sure many nc and vs max fan boys will say all of tr just need to l2p, these people are stupid and they have a agenda.

let the devs balance the game, the have detailed data that gives them insight to do so.

[bpostal]

Picture this, the light assaults die very quickly to the lockdowned MAX when they come out of cover, the shields go down pretty quickly with rockets to the fact and the MAX is moving slow as hell while putting down no fire themself anyway. The attack falters as your main pusher isn't doing any damage just trying to soak it up and the only way the shield helps is if you hide behind it so you can't shoot either.

You don't fight against the NC a lot do you? Especially in Biolabs.

[Chewy]

(I shouldn't have waited so long to get back to this)

Those diferences are less than a second at close ranges except for the grinder.

Should also be noted that Scattercannons and Mattocks with extended mags would probalby have similar TTK to the grinder while the VS and TR guns would brarely benefit that much since their reloads are faster andm from what ive seenm they usualy use one mag anyway.

Also seems peculiar the Mattock without slugs actualy outpreforms everything except the Blueshift at 15 meters by a good margin.


They could use some minor tweaking to do a little extra damage agaisnt maxes but apart from that they are far from useless especialy in their neiche.

1- No cert option should be forced on one and one only faction to have a balance. Extended mags are a forced 1,000 certs on any NC MAX that without them the MAXes are of very little use compared to other factions MAXes that don't have to spend a single cert. Outside of getting the weapons NC MAXes have a mandatory 1,000+ certs before they can be used in the role they are made for. TR and VS MAXes have no such limits.

2- Slugs make Mattocks worse for 0m-20m for MAX v MAX and Mattocks share the smallest COF with Scattercannons. So it is safe to assume that slug numbers will be the same for each.

Mattock TTKs with shot and slug.
Order Shot, slug
0m- 6.3--7.13
10m- 6.32--7.13
20m- 7.72--12.26
30m- 13.26--12.93



I'm having difficulty understanding how NC max weaponry is so allegedly underpowered and yet the same weaponry is the primary statistical killer on the ground. You don't get to start a post with "DAMN YOUR STATISTICS I DECLARE THEM INVALID" with much hope of not raising a few eyebrows. This incongruity needs to be explained before I take any of this seriously.

Post those stats you speak of and they best not be from PS2-stats.com. That site makes it impossible to get current data. Back at launch when NC MAXes earned their hate no one had C4, armor, or anything the needs certs to counter MAXes. Then we have the fact that everyone was an idiot at launch and never bothered to learn how to attack the way PS2 requires.



I love how you keep exagerating everything out of propeortions. Especialy how that 15% (At Max Rank) fire rate boost for bursters makes the lockdown MAX "absolutely terrifying". All while completly dismissing any weeknesses the enemy may have. Its realy classic forumside when you think about it.

And a proper test is not ZOE and Lockdown vs Slugs. Its ZOE vs Lockdown vs Aegis and then slugs having the same tests done as all the other guns along with all the guns being tested with extended mags.


NC maxes dont need "fixing" becouse they are not "broken". The only thing that they might need is slight tweaking against other MAXes and a fire rate buff to the hacksaw. And even THAT needs more extensive testing than just shooting buckshot at up to 20 meters.


Edit: Did some quick testing.

Slugs bring the TTK down to about 10 seconds at 20 meters for the Mattock and 11ish for the Scattergun.


Also Extended mags bring point blank TTK for both the Scattergun and Mattock to the same level as the grinder. The reson the Grindar has such a big difference is that it has 2 extra shots which enable it to kill an enemy MAX without relaoding. Extended mags give the same aility to the Scattercangun Mattock and even Hacksaw boostign their point blank TTK to the point where the other MAXes cant even compete.

Just to do these stock v stock tests took 96 of them. 3 MAXes, 4 weapons, 2 targets, and 4 ranges. 3*4*2*4=96. To account for cert options would make that number grow to the hundreds and thousands FAST. Just to account for abilities would mean you would have to add 2 more MAXes (3 stock, 1 ZOE, and 1 lockdown) and adds 1 more target for just NC, 2 for just TR, and just 1 for VS.

Ignoring the new targets and you have 5*4*2*4=160 tests. To add the new targets from abilities changing a MAXes stats I think would look like so. NC needs 1*4*3*4=48 tests. TR needs 1*4*4*4=64 tests. VS needs the same as NC, so 48. That (I think) brings the number of tests to 320. Oh wait, I forgot about the how lockdown and ZOE goes for infantry! That brings up the test number to around 352. Remove the old 96 tests as they are done and you have 256.

256 new tests to record, edit, and upload. That is a full time jobs worth of work just for 3 abilities and only doing it for level 5 and not 1-4. Then you have armors to account for and use of support players or smart use of cover! Is the point getting across here? Or do I need more details?

Also see my points on slugs above.



im sorry but having a player sit in vr shooting targets and doing math wont get you the results needed to provide balance in game. the in game data shows tr maxes are lacking, this is what the devs said, not some player in the VR,no offence chewy.extract the numbers from the API and you will see TR pull more maxes, they get less kills per max than any other faction,and they dont live as long as other maxes... this is why they need a buff. chewy dose one of these threads every time there is talk of a max nerf/buff.
and every time we see the same results......... NC maxes need to be buffed.

im sure many nc and vs max fan boys will say all of tr just need to l2p, these people are stupid and they have a agenda.

let the devs balance the game, the have detailed data that gives them insight to do so.

If I knew how to do that I would. I have ask MANY times how to do that and no one has told me how OR have bothered to post the stats themselves that I can recall. Other than Cupboy that is and we lost his work thanks to asshats.

If you think this is so easy THEN DO IT! Either tell me how to pull the data or do it yourself. Till then you have brought nothing but personal opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has at least one and most times they smell the same.

[Assist]

But I AM saying you were one who was saying the NC maxes weren't OP when they were for months after release till the shotgun nerf... same nerf that hit the mercys BTW which hit the pocket of a lot of TR BTW.

Right now the TTK differences in situations MAX on MAX encounters happen is pretty damn close, back to the balance the game has in most situations. Whoever shoots first gets the kill.

Indeed.

I appreciate him taking the time to do all the tests, but just as before when he was defending the hell out of the hacksaws, I'll take his conclusions with a grain of salt. We all play against the NC MAX and we know how well it does. I'll take my own personal expeirence of 34 days and factor that into how 'bad' the NC MAX is, needless to say I don't see that as even a remotely pressing issue.

[Chewy]

Indeed.

I appreciate him taking the time to do all the tests, but just as before when he was defending the hell out of the hacksaws, I'll take his conclusions with a grain of salt. We all play against the NC MAX and we know how well it does. I'll take my own personal expeirence of 34 days and factor that into how 'bad' the NC MAX is, needless to say I don't see that as even a remotely pressing issue.

You say that as an infantry and vehicle player, not a MAX player.

MAXes should be better than infantry, same can be said for vehicles as they have costs far outside of infantry. But when it comes to MAX fights even back at launch NC MAXes didn't have a chance at the ranges TR and VS MAXes can sit without worry. I defended NC MAXes back then because they have SHOTGUNS and shotgun need to be shotguns. If a shotgun can't do shit at CQC (like it is now without fully certed weapons) then there's no chance at any other range.

Im a support and MAX player. MAX is my 3rd most played class at 64 hours including vehicles. You may have 15 hours in a MAX on your main account but you have done nothing with that class. MAX v infantry isn't the big problem it is one but not the main, MAX v MAX is. And if NC MAXes can't handle TR and VS MAXes then what chance does our infantry have against them?

[War Barney]

You see chewy, its people like them which make me think humanity is going to destroy itself. You give them maths, actual maths aquired from lots of testing and they say *well I'm going to take that with a grain of salt*

It just makes me smash my head on the table and scream WHAT!! this is maths! you can't take maths with a grain of salt its sodding maths!. You can take him just saying *I think NC MAX are underpowered* with no tests with a grain of salt but lots of testing with the maths you CANT TAKE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT ARE YOU INSANE.

These people are just impossible to reason with, I honestly don't know if they are retarded or just are terrified of the NC MAX being fixed. I'm hoping its the terrified one cos if its the retarded one then it scares me that people so dumb are allowed to own a pc let alone use one unsupervised.

You are best off sending your results directly to SOE cos letting this community look at them is about as helpful as showing the results to your pet dog, hell the dog would probably make more sensible remarks than some of these people are.

Yes I am a bit angry tonight after some more idiots in-game being insanely stupid as usual but my points still stand. You CANNOT try to say chewy is wrong until you do your own maths. If you want to do that well I played a VS MAX and killed about 20 people before I died so your MAX is OP! I don't need maths I have experience, same for TR MAX I played that and killed a TON of people before I died so its OP! again I don't need no maths I have the power of personal experience with no proof at all! As for NC MAX its hard to get even 1 kill! PERSONAL EXPERIENCE POWER ACTIVATE! as such what I say is true despite no evidence!.

Wow that IS fun! did you also know I have personal experience of using all Vs guns to kill everybody from 10k range in 1 shot so they all need a nerf, same for TR, but NC guns do 1 damage a hit from my personal experience so they all need a boost. BY THE POWER OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I AM CORRECT!! no proof needed I said its personal experience so I'm right!.

Yes I went a bit insane there but thats about as insane as you idiots are being by trying to say *well ye you did a load of testing and did the maths but I'm going to deny it anyway and say its the opposite based on no evidence of any proof at all except saying it*. So seriously shut the hell up and go do the maths or just shut the hell up.

[OCNSethy]

Just my 2 cents worth...

Thank you Chewy for actually sitting down and going through the moves and collating the data. For me as TR, its given me some useful insight into the weapons I use on my Max and the effective distances I can use them.

As for the rest of the debate, people will use the data or not... I have no feelings either way. :)

[bpostal]

...this is maths! you can't take maths with a grain of salt its sodding maths!...

We're not dismissing the "maths" out of hand. The point that some of us are trying to make, and that Chewy (If I'm reading his post correctly) has also pointed out is that there is a metric fuckton (10^10) of testing and variables that needs to be done before you can look at straight numbers.

Just to do these stock v stock tests took 96 of them. 3 MAXes, 4 weapons, 2 targets, and 4 ranges. 3*4*2*4=96. To account for cert options would make that number grow to the hundreds and thousands FAST. Just to account for abilities would mean you would have to add 2 more MAXes (3 stock, 1 ZOE, and 1 lockdown) and adds 1 more target for just NC, 2 for just TR, and just 1 for VS.

Ignoring the new targets and you have 5*4*2*4=160 tests. To add the new targets from abilities changing a MAXes stats I think would look like so. NC needs 1*4*3*4=48 tests. TR needs 1*4*4*4=64 tests. VS needs the same as NC, so 48. That (I think) brings the number of tests to 320. Oh wait, I forgot about the how lockdown and ZOE goes for infantry! That brings up the test number to around 352. Remove the old 96 tests as they are done and you have 256.

256 new tests to record, edit, and upload. That is a full time jobs worth of work just for 3 abilities and only doing it for level 5 and not 1-4. Then you have armors to account for and use of support players or smart use of cover! Is the point getting across here? Or do I need more details?

That looks like a whole hell of a lot of variables. Variables that need to be accounted for before you can take anything without that grain of salt you were talking about War Barney.
But while we're on personal insults, I can almost bet that you're so stupid that you look at a sample survey and say 'Yep, this is what everyone believes. +/- 5%'.

TLDR: Chill out, as I said before balance is always ongoing. SOE has more 'maths' and data at their fingertips than any of us. That is the data they use to balance the game. You're not coming off as enlightened War Barney, you're coming off as a loudmouth, overbearing zealot.
I'm not saying Chewy's wrong. He's put more work into this than I ever could. But there's much more work and 'maths' that need to be done before you can call this data definitive.

[Chewy]

That looks like a whole hell of a lot of variables. Variables that need to be accounted for before you can take anything without that grain of salt you were talking about War Barney.

I'm not saying Chewy's wrong. He's put more work into this than I ever could. But there's much more work and 'maths' that need to be done before you can call this data definitive.

I'll agree that with that. Without everything there is nothing but questions.

My point of view is that if stock is off then how can things be right after options? All 3 factions share everything MAX but ES abilities and weapon type. ES abilities are debatable till the end of time, that's what make them an option and a real choice. But weapons types are something else.

The point of a shotgun is to make point blank kills easier at the cost of range. And the point of a HMG is to be able to spew lead at will and cover as much area as possible. There should be no balance between them in their given roles. Shotguns should rule in CQC and HMGs everywhere else. That's why those weapons are made and the meaning to their existence. That is not so now. It was like that at launch but not anymore.

Fact is if you balance shotguns to HMGs in CQC then you kill the meaning of shotguns. I HATE shotguns! They are a weapon type that feels like a monster in their role but can't be used outside of that role. I need to be versatile or my MAX can't protect my troops and I think of them as crocodiles. A thing looks scary as fuck and something you do not fuck with in the water! Drag them out of their element, make them waste energy, or risk being bit. Once that lizard is on land then the only worry is the one shot if you get close to the mouth or a lucky tail hit.

That is why I hate shotguns. They do one thing well and only that one thing. If you fail the fast kill then you have but one chance to use a backup or it is death. Fail that and you're in some guys boat off to be skinned for boots and luggage.

[Wahooo]

*Angry Tears*

I think you need to take a break from forumside for a while kid.

[LoliLoveFart]

Well this thread went about how I expected.
My PERSONAL opinion is that Shotguns on Maxes should be NS, they are just too hard to balance against HMGs, they will either be instant death (game launch) or a little worse but still damn powerful in cqc like they are now. Give the NC some HMGs and put the shotguns as NS, sure there will be tears (when isn't there) as the NC adjust.

[Chewy]

Well this thread went about how I expected.
My PERSONAL opinion is that Shotguns on Maxes should be NS, they are just too hard to balance against HMGs, they will either be instant death (game launch) or a little worse but still damn powerful in cqc like they are now. Give the NC some HMGs and put the shotguns as NS, sure there will be tears (when isn't there) as the NC adjust.

To late for that Im afraid. To much work already done and to many people that earned shotguns to have them turn into something else. Changing stats to balance is fine and vital part of a games life. But changing weapon type is just a bad idea. That would have to been done in Beta, not post.

The idea has been said before and most agree on it.

1 NS MAX shotgun, 1 NS MAX HMG.
Or 2 shotguns, 1 for TR MAXes and 1 for VS MAXes, and 1 HMG for NC MAXes.

Id rather have the NS weapons. Less work for the devs, less time to wait for them, and a LOT less balance problems with 2 weapons instead of 3. If it was up to me Id make the NS MAX shotgun have stats in between Scattercannons/Hacksaws and give the NS HMG stats between an average of Heavy c/Onslaught and Quasar/Nebula.

Sloppy work up

NS Shotgun
Name- Bird Boy
Mag- 6
Ammo pool- 54
ROF- 194
Pellet Spread- 3.5

Reload
Short- 3.1
Long- 3.9

Damage
8m- 127
18m- 47

COF
Sitting-1.25, 1.75
Standing- 1.75, 2.25

-------------------

NS HMG
Name- White Lead
Mag- 55
Ammo Pool- 440
ROF- 413

Reload
Short- 2.2
Long- 2.8

Damage
10m- 143
60m- 120

COF
Sitting- 2, 1.47 (read below)
Standing- 2.5, 5



Fun fact! Tuns out according to the official wiki TR and VS HMGs (all of them) have a smaller COF while sitting and moving then sitting still.
http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry

Best be a typo or some hell of a bug.:lol:

[KesTro]

While any other MAX can kill another MAX in CQC without having to reload. The NC MAX -CAN'T- do that even with extended mags. I'm sorry but anyone who thinks things are balanced is just sad about shotguns, not the MAX.

[bpostal]

...
Fun fact! Tuns out according to the official wiki TR and VS HMGs (all of them) have a smaller COF while sitting and moving then sitting still.
http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/MAX_Anti-Infantry

Best be a typo or some hell of a bug.:lol:

That...can't be right. And if it is, it shouldn't be. That'd just be odd.

From what I've been reading in this thread, and hearing in game (There was a bit of a debate while we were sitting the rape room (teleporter) at Allatum today, the damage is "too much" in close combat and "not enough" at near/mid-range.
I suggested making slugs the default and making the shotgun's the cert but some of the NC weren't sure that would work.
Either way it sounds like the issue people had with the Vulcan, vehicle wise, until SOE smoothed the damage 'chart' out.
EDIT: Rereading the thread on the official forums, someone brought up the choke that the ScatMAX had in Planetside, that would probably be one of the more elegant solutions if one is needed.

[MrMak]

While any other MAX can kill another MAX in CQC without having to reload. The NC MAX -CAN'T- do that even with extended mags. I'm sorry but anyone who thinks things are balanced is just sad about shotguns, not the MAX.

Uh...wrong. Havent you ben paying attention to anything in this thread? Grinders without extended mags and any other of the scatterguns with exteanded mags kill maxes without relaoding at close range significantly faster than other faction weapons.

[ChipMHazard]

To late for that Im afraid. To much work already done and to many people that earned shotguns to have them turn into something else. Changing stats to balance is fine and vital part of a games life. But changing weapon type is just a bad idea. That would have to been done in Beta, not post.

The idea has been said before and most agree on it.

My thoughts on the matter mirror yours. I would prefer to see them replaced with HMGs but it's sadly never going to happen because it's a F2P. It's not so much that people have earned their weapons via say certs, those can be refunded easily enough, it's that people have actually purchased their scatterguns with SC.


EDIT: Rereading the thread on the official forums, someone brought up the choke that the ScatMAX had in Planetside, that would probably be one of the more elegant solutions if one is needed.

Aye, that would be the firing modes I've been referring to as the only possible way, that I can see, for them to balance out scatterguns. Tweaking the current stats will never be enough on its own.

War Barney, you need to relax. A discussion like this should not infuriate anyone to the levels that you're showing. The data was collected under perfect conditions and is meant to show each weapon performs. How a Scattermax works ingame during day to day fights hasn't been taken into account since that would require one to try and add level design, player reaction times, average misses caused by player movement, cert options, different weapons going up against each other etc. into the equation. Want to know why Scattermaxes perform better in a Bio Lab than indicated by their stats? Level design. The level design allows for Scattermaxes to utilize their weapons to their fullest potential.

I still agree about Scattermaxes being the worst against other MAXes, simply because that's what SOE has been trying to balance them around for some reason. (The previous Scattermax's performance against other MAXes was just one of the two complaints regarding them, the biggest still being the instagib on infantry)
The Scattermax should be balanced around being overall more versatile.

[MrMak]

Uh the slugs are pretty much the long range mode on the PS1 Scatmax. Not to mention mode switching could get tricky with dual weapons.

[ChipMHazard]

Uh the slugs are pretty much the long range mode on the PS1 Scatmax. Not to mention mode switching could get tricky with dual weapons.

Not really since equipping slugs is a permanent choice, until you resupply/die, and not the same as switching between firing modes.
Modes would indeed have to be tied to both weapons that are capable of switching modes. Have two scatterguns? Both switch to the same firing mode. Have just one scattergun? Only that can switch firing mode.

I do see an issue with balancing out the different scatterguns when compared to each other.

[Sledgecrushr]

My nc max will way overkill the first two infanry I run into up close, and then I have a long reload. I spend most of my time in a fight when I use a max reloading. Its not fun at all.

[Rumblepit]

You see chewy, its people like them which make me think humanity is going to destroy itself. You give them maths, actual maths aquired from lots of testing and they say *well I'm going to take that with a grain of salt*

It just makes me smash my head on the table and scream WHAT!! this is maths! you can't take maths with a grain of salt its sodding maths!. You can take him just saying *I think NC MAX are underpowered* with no tests with a grain of salt but lots of testing with the maths you CANT TAKE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT ARE YOU INSANE.

These people are just impossible to reason with, I honestly don't know if they are retarded or just are terrified of the NC MAX being fixed. I'm hoping its the terrified one cos if its the retarded one then it scares me that people so dumb are allowed to own a pc let alone use one unsupervised.

You are best off sending your results directly to SOE cos letting this community look at them is about as helpful as showing the results to your pet dog, hell the dog would probably make more sensible remarks than some of these people are.

Yes I am a bit angry tonight after some more idiots in-game being insanely stupid as usual but my points still stand. You CANNOT try to say chewy is wrong until you do your own maths. If you want to do that well I played a VS MAX and killed about 20 people before I died so your MAX is OP! I don't need maths I have experience, same for TR MAX I played that and killed a TON of people before I died so its OP! again I don't need no maths I have the power of personal experience with no proof at all! As for NC MAX its hard to get even 1 kill! PERSONAL EXPERIENCE POWER ACTIVATE! as such what I say is true despite no evidence!.

Wow that IS fun! did you also know I have personal experience of using all Vs guns to kill everybody from 10k range in 1 shot so they all need a nerf, same for TR, but NC guns do 1 damage a hit from my personal experience so they all need a boost. BY THE POWER OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCE I AM CORRECT!! no proof needed I said its personal experience so I'm right!.

Yes I went a bit insane there but thats about as insane as you idiots are being by trying to say *well ye you did a load of testing and did the maths but I'm going to deny it anyway and say its the opposite based on no evidence of any proof at all except saying it*. So seriously shut the hell up and go do the maths or just shut the hell up.

i didnt pull these numbers , i didnt crunch these numbers, someone did it for me. this comes right from the devs.
All of these stats posted today at https://twitter.com/mhigby
Quote
Looks like the changes in GU11 brought the MAX vs MAX balance into line. TR MAXes underperforming slightly (~0.9 vs ~1.05 KDR for NC/VS)
Quote
VS MAXes still enjoying a higher average kills (3.2 vs 2.5 and 2.2 for NC/TR) but they were higher pre-ZOE as well, just a lot less used.
Quote
Overall, looks like NC MAXes are fairly competitive with VS across most metrics, TR MAXes will see some buffs soon.
Quote
Note: this is just a tiny piece of the picture we're looking at & TR MAXes are the most used, so they'd tend to have a lower K/D naturally.

i could come up with some numbers that would prove without a doubt that esf's are way to f ing overpowered, and these numbers would add up and make my case for me.but they would all be wrong. because the numbers would show esf's being overpowered, but it wouldnt show poor base design, and lack of cover. dose this mean that esf's are OP?
nah they are just fine the way they are, but the numbers would say otherwise. you get it kiddo? or should we allow you to continue to smash your head off the wall?

chewy your right on point with everything, testing was good, control was good, all your math is good,but they will never find balance threw those kind of numbers in a game like this.if this were the case then they would be forced to buff the crap out of the NC max, because on paper it looks like dog shat, but it still out preforms TR.
i wish i could tell you how to extract the numbers from the api, im sure it would save you lots of leg work.

i like the note at the end, "TR MAXes are the most used" lol its because we only get 0.9 kills per max

[maradine]

Hush, you're going to destroy humanity.

[Chewy]

i didnt pull these numbers , i didnt crunch these numbers, someone did it for me. this comes right from the devs.
All of these stats posted today at https://twitter.com/mhigby
Quote
Looks like the changes in GU11 brought the MAX vs MAX balance into line. TR MAXes underperforming slightly (~0.9 vs ~1.05 KDR for NC/VS)
Quote
VS MAXes still enjoying a higher average kills (3.2 vs 2.5 and 2.2 for NC/TR) but they were higher pre-ZOE as well, just a lot less used.
Quote
Overall, looks like NC MAXes are fairly competitive with VS across most metrics, TR MAXes will see some buffs soon.
Quote
Note: this is just a tiny piece of the picture we're looking at & TR MAXes are the most used, so they'd tend to have a lower K/D naturally.

Higby posted those on June 25th for anyone that wanted to hunt across his tweet history for them. let me try and give my thoughts on those tweets.

First of all you forgot to post some of them. I have no idea to post tweets here so Im just going to copy them.

The tweets below this one is him responding to this question
"@mhigby Did it ever came in mind that only the veteran VS players use maxes, unlike every NC and TR that just spam them and die instantly?"


@DMan577 yes, infact we know that to have been the case pre-ZOE, which is why it made sense they had an average KDR that is way higher.
@DMan577 however that's not the case anymore, they went from least used to most used MAX w/ the ZOE release.
@DMan577 now the TR MAX has overtaken the VS MAX again in terms of usage, but they're much closer than they were.
@DMan577 # of kills and K/D is still slightly disproportionate to NC/VS even when factoring in their increased use w/ lower level player"

My take on this-
TR MAXes are pulled the most pre-GU11 and VS MAXes the least. As well as only vet players with real game time being the ones to use VS MAXes explaining their high K/D. No word on NC MAXes being pulled or level of BRs using them. Safe to assume in the middle of TR and VS MAXes Id think.

Post-GU11 VS MAXes had a lot of low level players start pulling MAXes and that made them the most used MAX for a short while then TR MAXes reclaimed that title but both are close to each other. Thus making NC MAXes the least pulled of the 3 if I read that right.

Now the K/D numbers for MAX v MAX. We have 2 of them for MAX v MAX. TR/NC and TR/VS but not for NC/TR, NC/VS, VS/TR, or VS/NC. 4 out of 6 is missing but 2 of those 4 can be assumed. Flip the 2 given for TR and you should have the K/D for NC/TR 1.1 and VS/TR .95 but no word on NC/VS or VS/NC.

I want to give opinions on those but can't from lack of anything else to go on such as pull rates for BR and pull amounts. Though I wouldn't call a .2 or .1 gap something to worry about unless we are not told something vital.

Then we have over all K/D. This is for any kills the MAX gets over an average life. VS MAXes 3.2, NC MAXes 2.5, and TR MAXes 2.2. NC and TR MAXes look to farm about as much as the other when remembering that there are more TR MAXes than NC MAXes but VS MAXes are clearing house with being either the most pulled MAX or equal to it. And Higby said that VS MAXes had a HIGHER over all K/D before GU11.

VS MAXes enjoy a K/D higher than NC MAXes and we know the general opinions on them don't we? How long as this been the case? GU6 or even possibly back to launch? We don't know.



That little bit of data may have came from Higby himself but it is so small that you can't hardly use it. He tells us parts of 2 bits of data and hints at others but never gives a picture on anything. The devs have everything they need, we have only what we see and eyes see what they want. That data brings more questions than what it tells.

We need someone that is able to data mine again. When we lost Cupboy to forum warriors is was a big blow. There is no way to learn anything without having the data ready for anyone to look at.

[Rumblepit]

Higby posted those on June 25th for anyone that wanted to hunt across his tweet history for them. let me try and give my thoughts on those tweets.

First of all you forgot to post some of them. I have no idea to post tweets here so Im just going to copy them.

The tweets below this one is him responding to this question
"@mhigby Did it ever came in mind that only the veteran VS players use maxes, unlike every NC and TR that just spam them and die instantly?"


@DMan577 yes, infact we know that to have been the case pre-ZOE, which is why it made sense they had an average KDR that is way higher.
@DMan577 however that's not the case anymore, they went from least used to most used MAX w/ the ZOE release.
@DMan577 now the TR MAX has overtaken the VS MAX again in terms of usage, but they're much closer than they were.
@DMan577 # of kills and K/D is still slightly disproportionate to NC/VS even when factoring in their increased use w/ lower level player"

My take on this-
TR MAXes are pulled the most pre-GU11 and VS MAXes the least. As well as only vet players with real game time being the ones to use VS MAXes explaining their high K/D. No word on NC MAXes being pulled or level of BRs using them. Safe to assume in the middle of TR and VS MAXes Id think.

Post-GU11 VS MAXes had a lot of low level players start pulling MAXes and that made them the most used MAX for a short while then TR MAXes reclaimed that title but both are close to each other. Thus making NC MAXes the least pulled of the 3 if I read that right.

Now the K/D numbers for MAX v MAX. We have 2 of them for MAX v MAX. TR/NC and TR/VS but not for NC/TR, NC/VS, VS/TR, or VS/NC. 4 out of 6 is missing but 2 of those 4 can be assumed. Flip the 2 given for TR and you should have the K/D for NC/TR 1.1 and VS/TR .95 but no word on NC/VS or VS/NC.

I want to give opinions on those but can't from lack of anything else to go on such as pull rates for BR and pull amounts. Though I wouldn't call a .2 or .1 gap something to worry about unless we are not told something vital.

Then we have over all K/D. This is for any kills the MAX gets over an average life. VS MAXes 3.2, NC MAXes 2.5, and TR MAXes 2.2. NC and TR MAXes look to farm about as much as the other when remembering that there are more TR MAXes than NC MAXes but VS MAXes are clearing house with being either the most pulled MAX or equal to it. And Higby said that VS MAXes had a HIGHER over all K/D before GU11.

VS MAXes enjoy a K/D higher than NC MAXes and we know the general opinions on them don't we? How long as this been the case? GU6 or even possibly back to launch? We don't know.



That little bit of data may have came from Higby himself but it is so small that you can't hardly use it. He tells us parts of 2 bits of data and hints at others but never gives a picture on anything. The devs have everything they need, we have only what we see and eyes see what they want. That data brings more questions than what it tells.

We need someone that is able to data mine again. When we lost Cupboy to forum warriors is was a big blow. There is no way to learn anything without having the data ready for anyone to look at.


this little bit of data dose leave us with more questions than answers, but this is the type of data they use to balance the game, that was my point. now i know there is more to this data ,but we were only allowed a peak. now based of these numbers it dosnt look to bad, but this isnt all the numbers because this really wouldnt justifie a buff, so there is alot more to it then we know. that being said, try out the tr max in live combat and tell me its on par with the nc and vs.

its a joke.... tr and nc run away from zoey maxes , vs and tr run away from nc maxes. nc and vs fight over who gets to kill the tr maxes.this is how you can tell there is a issue.

we are big red slow piles of certs,that sometimes lockdown to the ground .

[Chewy]

this little bit of data dose leave us with more questions than answers, but this is the type of data they use to balance the game, that was my point. now i know there is more to this data ,but we were only allowed a peak. now based of these numbers it dosnt look to bad, but this isnt all the numbers because this really wouldnt justifie a buff, so there is alot more to it then we know. that being said, try out the tr max in live combat and tell me its on par with the nc and vs.

its a joke.... tr and nc run away from zoey maxes , vs and tr run away from nc maxes. nc and vs fight over who gets to kill the tr maxes.this is how you can tell there is a issue.

we are big red slow piles of certs,that sometimes lockdown to the ground .

Do you know the amount of shit the devs would get if they said "Yup, the game is kinda in a fucked way right now and we are brain storming ideas"? Not only would they get their asses handed to them from higher ups but the gaming community would go nuts and player bases would quit from a thing like that. You do not say those kinds of things as a game dev.

Also any MAX, no matter the faction, gets shot to shit. Why the fix on ZOE? A VS MAX doesn't need that to be a killer. It helps them do that job better but it is in no way needed. My shield only lets me be a target. Though that is a good thing when I can get a MBT to keep an eye on me to give another time for a C4 run I'll say.

You want me to be a TR MAX, how about you try and be a NC MAX? Would that even change anyone's opinion on this? If I went and made a video of me playing as a TR MAX would that do a damned thing? It certainly wouldn't change my opinion on weapon types and wouldn't change the math Iv done.

In truth I don't have the time to farm for certs on an alt and don't have the cash to spend $7-$14 on weapons for a faction I don't play. If I did what you ask it would just be a BR 1 with a shit 1 AI and 1 AV weapon stock MAX. It wouldn't prove a thing.

[Wahooo]

One thought on the numbers thing. Even though only a small fraction of most online game players visit the forums for those games; the general sentiment and trends on those forums make their way through the community. The minute you get "OMG OP" threads a very large number of players jump on that bandwagon. Same as "OMG WORTHLESS".
The devs know this, i'm sure they see these trends. ZOE comes out, everyone screams OP and tons of folks who'd barely touched one before grabs it.

Other things go into it as well, like TR's big selling point high ROF, lots of bullets just epitomized by the max, so a lot of new players that already gravitated to TR gravitate to the max, which would explain why there are so many new players on them.

Still not sure what to say about all this really. I've played a bit of NC max last couple days and I do think that extended mags are much more useful, and damn near needed, than they are on the other two factions. However they also help the NC more significantly. I know tonight if I had had extended mags I would have killed the last guy that killed me, and may still be playing than typing this.
I also think slugs are way underutilized. It isn't hard to run back to a term and change out slugs or shot, especially for me when on NC I'm unsquadded so I find myself running back to spawns for repairs because I don't know where an engie is. The kills I got tonight were not quite 50/50 shot and slugs, but a good number were slugs. Now, once I get 1000 certs I will have to make a choice do I put extended mags on the guns I have or go to the walmart and get some SC to buy hacksaws or mattocks. I still like hacksaws with slugs based on VR testing... would be nice to be able to compare the two in game... which is a BIG thing about this whole thread right? After testing in VR I would equip hacksaws... based on popular opinion mattocks... based on this thread Grinders. Variables.

[Frotang]

Here is my ideas on different cert options for NC MAX.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1i0nb1/suggestionmax_balance_a_different_view_on_it/
I too agree that the NC MAX weapon certs are far more useful than the TR and VS. And that really isn't fair for any of the three factions which I why I proposed giving extended mags by default (maybe minus 1-2 rounds) and gave ideas for a different less useful 500 cert ability.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

[Chewy]

I think 4 days is long enough to warrant a bump seeing how nothing has changed yet.

Though I can say that the devs have seen this. Can't give any details about who, when, or what will happen sadly. But if Delrith tells me that he has talked to the devs about the MAX balance and that my work will be used (to a limited point Id guess) to help do something then I trust him on that.


On a side note Iv been hearing a lot of talk about NC outfits choosing to not play as NC at SOE Live. Any truth to that?

[War Barney]

Sadly still nothing been done and people still try to say that video proof with maths done isn't proof...

[Ghost Runner]

I just want a few more shots in my Max shotguns I think 10-15 would be ideal if damage stays as is.

But I would give up 25%-35% per shot damge to have a 50rd magazine capacity on my max for NC.

[Chewy]

I personally gave up on this. SOE has shown that they do not care for MAXes much at all compared to anything else. The simple fact that not a single MAX item has came out with player studio is proof enough for me that they think MAXes aren't worth the effort.

Every infantry class has, what, hundreds of helmets to choose from thanks to player studio with more coming all the time? Yet not a single one can be used on a MAX, even those that are so beefy that it would break someones neck if they put it on.

Why are MAXes treated like they are when you can't have a fight without them? Without MAXes most fights wouldn't even be fights. It would be fill the room with explosives and clean the mess all the time. But with MAXes you have to take a little more care as to make certain the MAXes are dead or they will HURT your push even unsupported. Might not stop a push unsupported but it will hurt like hell. You can't afford to randomly run about with MAXes around and have to think a little.

I just see no point in talking about this anymore. SOE has 3 options that would more or less end this debate and they haven't even tried as far as I know.

1- Redo one of each of a MAXes weapon and make into a weapon type that MAX is missing. Not going to happen without pissing a lot of players off and is iffy legal ground as a lot of players paid cash for weapons.

2- Make 1 weapon per MAX. A pure CQC weapon for VS and TR MAXes and a HMG med range weapon for NC MAXes. Still possible but I just do not see this happening seeing how MAXes have been treated. Not till the next revamp for MAXes maybe next year or 2.

3- NS weapons, 1 HMG and 1 shotgun. Less work and no need to make new models. Just reuse mounts for bursters and slap on the Kobalt and Renegade models to save time. Everyone gets something they need and an option for what they have.


If SOE was going to do anything. They would have long ago. Same with the Canister. Worse than a mule SOE is with shoving shotguns down NC throats. And I know stubborn jackasses, my Mawmaw gave birth to 5 with each of them having 1-3 more.

[War Barney]

The sad thing is they could make the NC MAX useful by just making a NS heavy machinegun for it, hell they could even make a NS shotgun for the others BAM suddenly theres a gun every NC MAX would use.

You are right though... 1 special new ability, tiny choice of weapons in comparison to other classes, very few suit/utility choices, they just don't seem to care or are waiting to do lots in 1 go.

I just wish they'd at least give us 1 long range option so we could have an effective range beyond 5m.

[KesTro]

You have to understand that MAX balance is something SOE has to be -very- delicate with. Too much or too little of something and you get a reaction almost equal to the airchavs(noisiest group if you ask me). As far as I was aware they have update plans for new weapons for the MAX's but I would agree that some tuning needs to be done to ALL the faction MAX's. It's just not a very high priority right now as they honestly are in a pretty good spot balance wise. You guys mentioned you disliked slugs but they really are a game changer. I use a mattock with slugs and a grinder without for dealing with infantry and other MAX's. Have had '0' problems with this set up for your average fight. You just can't spam the slugs. You have to wait half a second before firing another shot to be accurate.

The only thing I would say about the NC MAX compared to the others is that we can't lay down sustained fire like the VS/TR can. We dump our load in a three seconds then spend 4 reloading. (Don't know exact values, not looking 'em up this is just how it'feels'). I honestly wouldn't mind a damage nerf(small) to stop the instagibs if they gave us an ammo increase. 12 rounds is the largest magazine we can get with the grinder and the grinders can be incredibly unreliable even at 15m against another player who knows how to weave and abuse net code to make their player model appear to be moving faster than it is.

[Chewy]

I main reason I refuse to use slugs is because they deal far to little damage. 500-334 depending on range sounds like a lot, and it is when fighting nothing but infantry. The moment something bigger comes you will not be able to do anything about it.

A max damage of 500 per hit. You need 20 slugs to kill a MAX with stock armor (10,000), 14 if you get pure headshots. At KA5 a MAXes HP against small arms (any AI weapon more or less) becomes 16,000. That's 32 chest hits or 21.33 headshots making it 100% impossible to kill a MAX with anything but dual extended Grinders, and you can't miss a single shot with AT LEAST 20 hits to the head.

A MAX that can't fight MAXes is useless to me. With just about any of the TR or VS AI weapons you can go to around 20m without needing to reload in basic tests, without extended mags. Yes it will take a moment longer to kill something but you WILL kill almost anything you set your eyes on within reason. That kinda of flexibility is just godly. Playing in the Merger Smash as TR, I got to play as a certed Onslaught MAX and my god did I feel a power I have never felt before as a NC MAX. Never needing to stop shooting and being able to hold entire hallways by myself for minutes at a time. Only needing help when other MAXes come or there is about a squad coming at me. My NC MAXes can hardly handle 3-5 players and they all need to be so close I can read their faction ID cards.


All I want is something to normalize MAXes. AV weapons are in a nice spot with an option for long and short range, AA is just one weapon, but AI has nothing to base balance off of thanks to weapons types not being shared. At least with the Vanguard you can use one of the 2-3 AI NS weapons for your needs and ignore the Canister. MAXes can't do the same. EVERY other infantry and vehicle class has options to fill gaps be it NS or faction weapons. But yet again, not MAXes.

[MaxDamage]

I made a guess as to what your faction was based on the cherry picked statistics you chose to publish out of context.

I scrolled down to your sig.

I was right.

[bites]

880 Hours in a suit reporting in. I generally run slugs, and agree with the "niche" loadout issues ... but those are part and parcel of being a specialized unit ... sometimes when I'm Rock, Paper kicks my ass ... other times I get to scissor the shit out of them for it.

The only thing I would say about the NC MAX compared to the others is that we can't lay down sustained fire like the VS/TR can.

This would be the only issue I have with the NC MAX ... other factions have more bullets per mag than I do in my entire AMMO pool for both guns .. and it sucks.

Range and mag sizes can be worked around with careful positioning (or aggressive play-style), but the fact we can only reload 4 times total .. is pretty stupid and really frustrating.

Lack of ammo kills me more than anything ... and I have the Auraxium MAX punch to prove it.

(and before some smart ass posts ... no ammo loadout is not an option .. ever).

[Chewy]

I made a guess as to what your faction was based on the cherry picked statistics you chose to publish out of context.

I scrolled down to your sig.

I was right.

You seem to have not noticed that I made all of this over a year ago. This is a very old topic and one that you yourself might have already taken part in back in October of 2013.

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-4-everything-ai.139234/page-7
Post #136, are you the same MaxDamage? If so then even back then you never bothered to look before jumping into a debate. Saying that I wasn't doing fair tests and giving your own person biased opinion with zero backing. Even though I put everything I had out for everyone to read in the OP of both topics with a big old warning label.

Do not blame me for your lack of looking before jumping. I very clearly stated that you had to at least look into the links given (they still work by the way if you still haven't seen them) to see the details and what I was basing everything off of. It isn't my fault if someone doesn't even bother to read the first few lines of a post.


If you are not the same MaxDamage, then ignore my rant and take my apology. But this is still well over a year old. Also the last balance pass for any of the MAX AI weapons came about 8 months ago that did next to nothing. Could have said less than nothing if not for the Mattock damage drop off range changes.

[War Barney]

I guess he didn't want to look into it cos if he did it would be indisputable proof that the NC MAX is god awful at everything but short range.

How about this as a idea to balance it! the NC MAX is awful at every range over 10m so lets make the VS MAX do its normal damage at 50m BUT at 0m it does almost no damage (like how our MAX does no damage at 50m) and the TR MAX does normal damage at 30m but does almost 0 at 0m and 50m!.

Its perfect, that way all the other MAXs will only have 1 range they can be used at as well instead of being able to work fine at multiple ranges.

[Chewy]

There's wanting a balance, then there's just jacking shit up. Forcing TR and VS MAX weapons into a limited role would have a beyond massive backlash that SOE would be smelling their own livers for months from how far the community would drive their heads up their own asses.

Shotguns in games have crap range because they have pellets and shoot many of them at once. You HAVE to limit their range or the things would be far to strong. In real life, well lets just say that bring real life into gaming isn't a good idea outside of sims. VS weapons would likely overheat in a few shots, TR weapons would be great from being well made and maintained, and NC weapons would be falling apart at all times if real life wan brought to PS2.

No point in fucking over 2rds of the game with a change like that. Best thing to do would be just add NS weapons for MAXes. All factions get to have something they need, all players get something to play with, and everyone gets to shoot everyone at will.

[Gatekeeper]

Personally I'd say this issue is clouded by three things:

1) AI MAXs excel at short range, their effectiveness beyond that range isn't really that relevant - being the best AI MAX at medium-long range is like being the best donkey in a horse-race.

2) However good your theoretical testing is, it doesn't necessarily translate into real-world game situations. No one unit stands alone in PS2, and even if the NC AI MAX weapons are weaker in theory, this might not translate into any real difference in practice.

In fact, if the majority of key AI MAX encounters are MAX vs squishie at point-blank range, then the NC AI MAX may be overall the strongest.

IMO analysing kills/score-per-minute or other real-world usage data of various MAX weapons is probably the best way to work out overall balance.

3) The three factions don't need to be perfectly balanced in every situation in order to be balanced overall. For example, if TR have the best AI MAX and VS have the best tank and NC have the best shotgun this may be balanced overall (I'm not saying those things are true, it's just a theoretical example).

Anyway, all that said - I've got no objection to the idea of adding new NS MAX weapons to give NC mid-short AI effectiveness and TR/VS point-blank punch. Whether or not there's a problem now, this seems like it'd be a fun addition - so long as it doesn't erode the unique feel of the factions too much.

While we're at it, if they could buff the Vortex so it can actually be somewhat useful against infantry, that'd be nice - either that or nerf the bloody Raven ;)

[Chewy]

For NC MAXes, point blank and long range is between 1m and 15-20m where is gets to being more or less pointless to fight. Most rooms in the game are bigger than this. Never mind crossing courtyards in bases.

For TR and VS MAXes, point blank and long range is between 1m and 40m for the same reasons. You can cover entire rooms and hallways with most if not all of their AI weapons. They can even cover open ground between buildings in more open bases without much trouble.

If you want to see just how small 15m is go the the first page and look at post number 12. Even back then before the blanket shotgun nerfs NC MAXes still couldn't reach past 15m with their old weapons. After all of the shotgun nerfs, their range and raw power is even less.


It isn't theory. Shotguns are not comparable to HMGs and should never be. They are almost as different in weapon types as you can get. Shotguns aren't even comparable to any other weapon in gaming from then being so damn hard to figure out how to make them fair. To lock one faction to one and another to the other is never going to have any kind of balance in a game.

Just look at the 2ndary AI weapons for MBTs. The PPA is an explosive HMG, the Marauder is a grenade launcher, and the Canister is a shotgun. What one of the 3 is pure shit, what one is in the middle ground, and what one is the PPA?

[War Barney]

Personally I'd say this issue is clouded by three things:

1) AI MAXs excel at short range, their effectiveness beyond that range isn't really that relevant - being the best AI MAX at medium-long range is like being the best donkey in a horse-race.

2) However good your theoretical testing is, it doesn't necessarily translate into real-world game situations. No one unit stands alone in PS2, and even if the NC AI MAX weapons are weaker in theory, this might not translate into any real difference in practice.

In fact, if the majority of key AI MAX encounters are MAX vs squishie at point-blank range, then the NC AI MAX may be overall the strongest.

IMO analysing kills/score-per-minute or other real-world usage data of various MAX weapons is probably the best way to work out overall balance.

3) The three factions don't need to be perfectly balanced in every situation in order to be balanced overall. For example, if TR have the best AI MAX and VS have the best tank and NC have the best shotgun this may be balanced overall (I'm not saying those things are true, it's just a theoretical example).

Anyway, all that said - I've got no objection to the idea of adding new NS MAX weapons to give NC mid-short AI effectiveness and TR/VS point-blank punch. Whether or not there's a problem now, this seems like it'd be a fun addition - so long as it doesn't erode the unique feel of the factions too much.

While we're at it, if they could buff the Vortex so it can actually be somewhat useful against infantry, that'd be nice - either that or nerf the bloody Raven ;)

1. they effectiveness beyond 10m IS relevent as most fights happen beyond that range, as chewy said you can sort of fight at 20m but 10 is where you need to be to really see any benefit. As for best at short range... VS and TR have instakill on infantry at the same ranges NC do, the only advantage we have is a small one over MAXs at point blank range.

2. Chewy has covered, as a addition if anything this testing makes the NC MAX look better than it is normally as its harder to aim our shotguns and people rarely stand still.

3. They are NOT balance overall, the VS and TR MAX get AI guns which can kill things 50m+ away while still having a instakill at very close range. NC get a 10m range and to kill MAXs slightly faster at point blank range....



The NC MAX is just awful, to be specific SHOTGUNS are awful for a MAX, think of it like this, would you be happy if you could never use any gun other than shotguns ever again? of course not, people rarely use shotguns except when they enter mainly indoor close range fighting as they are so awful at everything but point blank range fighting, our MAX has no option to not use shotguns, we are stuck with an incredibly niche gun while the VS and TR get the equivalent of a LMG, perhaps not as good up close but capable at every range.

And to make it worse its more like if LMGs could 1 shot people as VS/TR MAXs still get a close range instakill

[War Barney]

What one of the 3 is pure shit, what one is in the middle ground, and what one is the PPA?

Lol, at leas they are nerfing it now (slightly)

[mrmrmrj]

If the devs just doubled NC AI MAX ammo pools for a week, they would see that not even that change would make them good.

[KesTro]

If the devs just doubled NC AI MAX ammo pools for a week, they would see that not even that change would make them good.

That's not the problem. The problem is they're too good in one area, not good enough in every other as to where the other MAX's can be used as supression for up to a good 35M or so although that is pushing it.

[almalino]

I barely see NC maxes use any AI veapon because it shit. We try to fight infantry with AV guns :)

[Gatekeeper]

I see (and am killed by) plenty of NC AI MAXs, so I don't think the problem is anything like as severe as people are trying to make out here.

I'm not saying there's no issue at all, but clearly NC AI MAXs are effective, even if they're not as effective as their TR/VS counterparts.

It's true that NC use AV weapons for AI work as well, but that's because the Raven is actually pretty deadly, even at very long range - as opposed to the Vortex which really is just pure AV.

[War Barney]

You most likely die at the only range our MAX is useful, almost point blank. This is the problem other factions who've never played the NC just remember those times they died to a NC MAX in a biolab but they don't remember how they almost never see a NC MAX outside a biolab while their own MAXs are slaughtering people left and right.

And the raven really isn't that good, its very situational as you need to guide each rocket in (and they do very little damage) so you have plenty of time to be shot, the falcons are the best choice as you can shoot then hide and both barrels will (for now) kill instantly.

[Baneblade]

Dual Falcon NC MAX is the only viable NC MAX in a dynamic tactical environment.

[Canaris]

I'm sorry but I need to call complete and UTTER bullshit on NC not using AI weapons and them being useless. What a crock of shit. How come I keep seeing the best NC outfits on miller totting shotgun MAX's and doing a great job of tearing through people, if you're not getting decent kills with them then it isn't the tools it's the operator.

[Baneblade]

They aren't useless, they just aren't the best weapon available.

[War Barney]

I'm sorry but I need to call complete and UTTER bullshit on NC not using AI weapons and them being useless. What a crock of shit. How come I keep seeing the best NC outfits on miller totting shotgun MAX's and doing a great job of tearing through people, if you're not getting decent kills with them then it isn't the tools it's the operator.

A typical post from somebody whos never tried them and doesn't bother to read the thread properly.

We aren't saying they are useless at everything.. they are useless at ranges over 10m while TR/VS get guns that work up to 50m. How would you feel if your MAXs guns only did damage while the enemy was 30m away and if they got close/further away you did almost nothing?

[ringring]

No one should use a max outdoors

[Chewy]

No one should use a max outdoors

Just because you couldn't get that pebble out of your boot it doesn't mean MAXes can't play outside.

[ringring]

Just because you couldn't get that pebble out of your boot it doesn't mean Maxes can't play outside.

Of course not, but at their own risk.

Many people used to complain incessantly about scatmaxes in ps1 using the argument that they were powerful in exactly the environment where you would want them to be, ie at short range indoor fighting where the decision of winning or losing is made. I seems to me what applied in ps1 also applies in ps2.

I've just been reading up on the commentary of the Woodman/Miller server smash and was amused to see a few comments that Miller had the advantage playing NC because of the max with a recommendation that next time the two empires chosen for server smash should be TR and VS only.

I'm not sure I believe this because I thought Miller won because their air force and great timing by the resecure crews but it just goes to show that a variety of opinions exist on the utility specific weapons.

[Chewy]

I've just been reading up on the commentary of the Woodman/Miller server smash and was amused to see a few comments that Miller had the advantage playing NC because of the max with a recommendation that next time the two empires chosen for server smash should be TR and VS only.


Mind linking that topic? I couldn't find anything like that on the 3 forums I go for PS2 stuff (here the official and reddit). The only thing I found was some rumor that both sides wanted to play as VS but also didn't want to fight VS for reasons thus leading to the TR/NC picks. Couldn't find anything about MAXes being a hot topic though.

Might be worth a read.

[ringring]

Mind linking that topic? I couldn't find anything like that on the 3 forums I go for PS2 stuff (here the official and reddit). The only thing I found was some rumor that both sides wanted to play as VS but also didn't want to fight VS for reasons thus leading to the TR/NC picks. Couldn't find anything about MAXes being a hot topic though.

Might be worth a read.
I can't recall which thread it was but I think it was on reddit, I wouldn't say it was a hot topic at all just a comment or two within a large thread.

Interesting your find that some are saying they didn't want to fight against VS...... personally I found the only difficulty fighting VS was their colour -scheme which meant I wouldn't pick them up visually as quickly as I would the NC.

When I played I wore the darkest camo I could find :P

[War Barney]

Its always funny when people try to claim NC are OP, our guns control the worst of any factions (VS feel incredibly smooth), our MAX has no range so as long as you stay more than 10m away you're fine, our tank while better than the prowler isn't as good as the mag unless you do all your tank fights at point blank range (and if you do that you're a idiot), our ESF is a huge slow brick.

If anything NC is the worst faction, or at least requires the most time and skill to play well. And aye damn VS colours make them SO hard to see... when night hits I tends to just pull back from VS fronts if I can so I'm not fighting ghosts.


If anything it should be TR and NC fighting in smashes as they are the closest balanced to each other as they are both focused on damage, NC more per bullet TR more bullets, while the VS focus on the 1 important thing in shooters, accuracy. Ever noticed how you see 100s of VS snipers and hardly any for other factions? its cos you need to invest a lot of time and certs to be good with a NC/TR sniper, the starter sniper for VS is awesome right out of the box, same with the orion actually....

[Chewy]

Aren't all sniper rifles just clones? Bolt actions are, not certain of semi autos.

[War Barney]

From what I've heard from snipers the VS starter one is definitely just incredibly easy to use compared to the TR/NC one, thats why you see so many VS snipers using it and the only TR/NC ones you see a lot are high BR people with their empires best one.

[Isokon]

Aren't all sniper rifles just clones? Bolt actions are, not certain of semi autos.
Take everything War Barney writes about faction equipment with a shovel of salt. He is not comfortable with facts contradicting his feelings.

Semi autos are indeed different.
VS gets no bullet drop and 3-4% more bullet velocity in exchange for worse damage drop off (needs 1 more bullet to kill after 100m).

[War Barney]

Take everything War Barney writes about faction equipment with a shovel of salt. He is not comfortable with facts contradicting his feelings.

Semi autos are indeed different.
VS gets no bullet drop and 3-4% more bullet velocity in exchange for worse damage drop off (needs 1 more bullet to kill after 100m).


<sigh> Its sad to see people deciding to just be insulting to discredit people rather than actually say something useful.

I'm simply stating what I've heard from multiple snipers, all the ones I've spoken too say the VS starting bolt action is superior, hell you can see it for yourself ingame, theres WAY more VS snipers than any other. On Woodman now Miller I can't even remember the last time a TR sniper killed me, most of them use semi-autos at relatively close range VS though have tons of snipers at every fight =(

[DynamoECT]

Take everything War Barney writes about faction equipment with a shovel of salt. He is not comfortable with facts contradicting his feelings.

...



This is well recognised by many people within this forum. WarBarney complaining about how badly treated the NC are is now about half the entire content of this forum. Many people have attempted to give counter opinions, but it is futile.

[Isokon]

<sigh> Its sad to see people deciding to just be insulting to discredit people rather than actually say something useful.

I'm simply stating what I've heard from multiple snipers, all the ones I've spoken too say the VS starting bolt action is superior, hell you can see it for yourself ingame, theres WAY more VS snipers than any other. On Woodman now Miller I can't even remember the last time a TR sniper killed me, most of them use semi-autos at relatively close range VS though have tons of snipers at every fight =(

Here's the thing:
VS and TR have to buy their starting Bolt Action for 100 Certs, the NC gets it for free. All BASR are identical across factions, so maybe you should stop listening to snipers that are clueless about their class and start educating yourself about the things you proclaim.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=92&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=SNIPER&colid1=32&filterstr1=49&sortcolid=33&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250
But then again, you have said that how a weapon "feels" to you is more important than its actual stats *coughflarevsem6cough* when discussing balancing.

Btw. out of your last 700 deaths:
- 2 deaths to TR semi
- 2 deaths to VS semi
- 9 deaths to TR bolt action
- 10 deaths to VS bolt action

Your most recent death to a sniper rifle was to a Terran 99SV. The last time you died to a TR bolt action was two days ago.

Your argument is based on your feelings and you dismiss factual data when it does not match those.

[War Barney]

<sigh> 2 days ago while fighting TR almost non stop for the last week is still a long time considering VS snipers are letting lose almost non stop, still I've come to expect people to cherry pick stats to suit their own ends here.

[Isokon]

<sigh> 2 days ago while fighting TR almost non stop for the last week is still a long time considering VS snipers are letting lose almost non stop, still I've come to expect people to cherry pick stats to suit their own ends here.

Coming from someone, who can't come with any stats whatsoever. You fabricate your own anecdotal evidence to suit your ends.
http://ps2oraclestats.com/
Play around with that, maybe you will find something that supports your ideas.:rolleyes:

You were wrong about VS bolt actions, you are wrong about the abundance of sniping on VS side and you are wrong about fighting TR nonstop the last weak. Your kills for the last weak are ~55% TR and ~45% VS.

You have a strong irrational bias against VS and create your own little reality in your head where this bias is validated.

But I have wasted enough time with this. May you find joy in your ongoing delusions.

[Chewy]

This is well recognised by many people within this forum. WarBarney complaining about how badly treated the NC are is now about half the entire content of this forum. Many people have attempted to give counter opinions, but it is futile.

There is merit to NC being underdogs and having not as much love from the devs. Just have to look at who got the OP toys in the past and you'll see that it is mostly if not always TR or VS. Mostly TR from what I remember.

Prowler HE
Marauder
Vulcan
Striker
Fracture
PPA
Magrider in general at launch
ZOE
And more that I can't quite recall perfectly.

NC OP stuff. Launch HackMAX? Can't think of anything else. Even the Vanguard shield wasn't OP as it still couldn't bring that MBT up out of its ditch. And the HackMAX even back then was limited to 15m but dat TTK was to much I'll agree.

[Isokon]

There is merit to NC being underdogs and having not as much love from the devs. Just have to look at who got the OP toys in the past and you'll see that it is mostly if not always TR or VS. Mostly TR from what I remember.

Prowler HE
Marauder
Vulcan
Striker
Fracture
PPA
Magrider in general at launch
ZOE
And more that I can't quite recall perfectly.

NC OP stuff. Launch HackMAX? Can't think of anything else. Even the Vanguard shield wasn't OP as it still couldn't bring that MBT up out of its ditch. And the HackMAX even back then was limited to 15m but dat TTK was to much I'll agree.

The Phoenix, when it was first introduced?

[Chewy]

The Phoenix, when it was first introduced?

That didn't last, what, 2 days maybe a week? Hardly a fair comparison if you ask me next to months on end with most weapons I listed. Plus the Phoenix was never a weapon that could stop entire line of infantry, armor, or aircraft. Just not spamable and far to limiting with its short range, EXTREMELY slow ROF, and its just horrid DPS with being stuck like a rock as an infantry for up to 10-15 seconds. A fleashy squishy infantry.


Playing Devils Advocate a bit. (great movie)
Does it mean that if NC OP stuff (outside HackMAX) gets patched sooner, much sooner than normal, that it means the devs think NC are big boys and can handle not having the strong toys? There by giving NC love from knowing they don't need fancy stuff and choosing to instead give them the tools to make themselves better.