New policy on refunds needed

[War Barney]

Well I just heard they are changing C4 to be near worthless and apparently I've got no chance of a refund on those 700 certs wasted (As why the hell would I use C4 again when its a utter crap version of tank mines).

This got me thinking.. why is it legal for them to change something after you buy it and refuse you a refund? for certs you could say its cos its not real money you spent (though its still scummy) but for things you bought for SC you should always be allowed to request a refund upon a balance change.

Think of it like this, you don't buy a car, then a week later they call it in saying its to comfortable so they are going to make it worse and slow it down as well and refuse to let you return it. If you provide a service or product it should remain the same as when you bought it (apart from if you damage it or wear) or if it is forced into being changed you should be allowed a refund. It just seems refusing a refund is not just immoral its illegal as well.

[bpostal]

It's the EULA you 'signed' when you joined the game. Don't feel bad, I didn't really read it either. That's the legal reason.
For certs it's a bit different. From what I remember their reasoning for a lack of recert option (that Planetside had) is that you will always continue to earn certs. You won't ever be capped out and thus it's not a problem.
Try to cert/buy items that play to your playstyle instead of what looks good/OP.

[War Barney]

If they added a line saying *we hold the right to take every penny you have and claim all future income you ever have* would that be legal though? In what other industry can people change something you paid real money for so its worse than when you bought it and deny you a refund?

Hell this even encourages horrific business practises, if you wanted to farm players you could make certain gear really OP, then when everybody has bought it nerf it so its worthless and boost something else to be OP, when everybody has bought that nerf it to worthlessness, rinse and repeat. The law needs to catch up with gaming really, its letting these companies get away with robbery basically.

Hell think about it how many games have you played where something is OP then nerfed to be useless only to have something else end up OP as hell... they could already be using this plan to farm players for money while the law doesn't bother to stop them.

[bpostal]

Sure, if you agreed to it. That's the fucked up part of the legal system, especially when you're dealing with international legal systems. An example of a system where people can change something that you've paid for would be the RIAA and the music industry or the e-book 'scene'. Those fuckers will straight up remove shit off of your hard drive if they feel like it. Remember when Sony was selling CDs that included a rootkit that would auto-install when you put the CD into your computer?

If you wanted to farm players, cert into ScatMAX and stay in a biolab at all times. Really you have to realize that balance is always ongoing. It will never end and if SOE feels that something is OP or being abused then it's their job to bring it in line with their expectations. This is especially true in an MMO.
Shit is always going to be nerfed and buffed. You're entitled to your opinion and are welcome to share that opinion but at the end of the day there's not too much that we the players can do about it, other than making our opinion known.

[ChipMHazard]

I wouldn't go around claiming that SOE is conducting their business in an illegal manner without the required legal knowledge to make such a claim. Afaik, there's nothing illegal about anything relating to this. You're getting what you payed for, even if it's not what you want.
I get that mixing the usual balancing that goes into multiplayer games with the monetization that goes into the F2P might upset some.
You're free to try and get a cert refund from SOE but that's a matter between you and their support. Not us.

The only constructive thing you can do is provide some constructive feedback in order to get the C4 buffed to the level that you want.

Edit: In order not to derail this thread any further.
I don't know when they started introducing the license agreement that we see today, nor when it became common place. But my old Baldur's Gate manual actually does contain a software license agreement 5 lines long:p
So I might have had practical ownership, in the sense that what was Interplay going to do about it? Come to my house and take my copy? But I never had legal owndership. (I know you were referring to the practical ownership, Dragon.)

[Baneblade]

You 'rent' PlanetSide 2... you don't own it.

[ChipMHazard]

That is also true. You do not own any video game that you purchase.

[bpostal]

That is also true. You do not own any video game that you purchase.

I blame steam for this. Steam and the trend for downloadable content.

[Dragonskin]

I blame steam for this. Steam and the trend for downloadable content.

You have ALWAYS rented MMO games... anything that requires developer servers to run... you rent the privilage to use that part of the product.

EA wouldn't refund your Battlefield 2 purchase if they shut down the multiplayer servers....

Point fingers all you want, but none of this is new. The only time you ever owned a game was when you had the physical disc AND it didn't require online services to operate.

[wasdie]

You have ALWAYS rented MMO games... anything that requires developer servers to run... you rent the privilage to use that part of the product.

EA wouldn't refund your Battlefield 2 purchase if they shut down the multiplayer servers....

Point fingers all you want, but none of this is new. The only time you ever owned a game was when you had the physical disc AND it didn't require online services to operate.

Actually you should check the EULA of pretty much every piece of software out there. You don't own much, if any, of it.

[Dragonskin]

Actually you should check the EULA of pretty much every piece of software out there. You don't own much, if any, of it.

True, but if you really want to go that far then what do you actually ever own? If you are still paying mortgage or your car note then you don't technically own those. Then even the stuff you think you actually own... try not paying the IRS income tax and then explain to them that you own the property they are taking from you haha. Only 2 guarantees in life... death and taxes after all.

Anyway... back to the original point of the thread. It sucks that they change items that you buy and trust me I have bought plenty of crap I wish I didn't with SC... but SOE didn't make me buy it and I could have unlocked it with certs. I chose to give SOE my money... still regret some of the items, but trust me I am a lot more careful about what I buy now.. if I can get it with certs then I do for the most part now.

[GS Ourous]

If they added a line saying *we hold the right to take every penny you have and claim all future income you ever have* would that be legal though? In what other industry can people change something you paid real money for so its worse than when you bought it and deny you a refund?

All you buy is the station cash. After you successfully recieve the station cash, it's your problem.

[EVILPIG]

700 certs. That's like a day.

[Ghoest9]

@ OP

No one cares about your 700 certs.
If you want certs spend less time whining and try playing the game.


If you want to discuss game play and bvalance thats a different story.

[EVILPIG]

I have to add that you didn't buy anything. You used 700 certs to unlock C4. It's not even a SC item.

[typhaon]

If they added a line saying *we hold the right to take every penny you have and claim all future income you ever have* would that be legal though? In what other industry can people change something you paid real money for so its worse than when you bought it and deny you a refund?

Hell this even encourages horrific business practises, if you wanted to farm players you could make certain gear really OP, then when everybody has bought it nerf it so its worthless and boost something else to be OP, when everybody has bought that nerf it to worthlessness, rinse and repeat. The law needs to catch up with gaming really, its letting these companies get away with robbery basically.

Hell think about it how many games have you played where something is OP then nerfed to be useless only to have something else end up OP as hell... they could already be using this plan to farm players for money while the law doesn't bother to stop them.

I'm pretty sure that's what SOE has been doing (perhaps unintentionally) for the past 6 months... have you not been paying attention?

[Timealude]

I'm pretty sure that's what SOE has been doing (perhaps unintentionally) for the past 6 months... have you not been paying attention?

think they have been more or less balancing things, they cant help it if they put something into the game and we the players find a way to abuse it.

[War Barney]

This is the problem with games is a new market so the legal side of it is well behind everything else. Steam for example can ban your account without telling you why making you unable to play any of the games you bought which could be worth 100s depending on how many you had (perhaps even 1000s if you had the account for a while). In no other industry would that be legal but gamers seem very shy about fighting for their rights so this kind of stuff is allowed.

[Assist]

This is the problem with games is a new market so the legal side of it is well behind everything else. Steam for example can ban your account without telling you why making you unable to play any of the games you bought which could be worth 100s depending on how many you had (perhaps even 1000s if you had the account for a while). In no other industry would that be legal but gamers seem very shy about fighting for their rights so this kind of stuff is allowed.

Been using steam since 2003, never have had any issues with bans or suspensions. Just don't be an asshat and problem is solved.

Not sure what this has to do with Planetside2 though. C4 being changed isn't related to real money in any form. If you don't like the new version of it, tough shit, move on. If it's that bad for you to farm the certs that you "lost", then it sounds like you're not having fun with the game and should move on to something else.

Also if you want to bring up a debate about the balancing of a weapon/item in PS2, I suggest you post the changes to the item. I have no idea what the C4 change is, all I see in this post is you whining that you 'have' to play a game.

[Canaris]

well since the main issue has been dealt with the proper PSU way, anyone got a link to these C4 changes?

[Qwan]

Well I just heard they are changing C4 to be near worthless and apparently I've got no chance of a refund on those 700 certs wasted (As why the hell would I use C4 again when its a utter crap version of tank mines).

This got me thinking.. why is it legal for them to change something after you buy it and refuse you a refund? for certs you could say its cos its not real money you spent (though its still scummy) but for things you bought for SC you should always be allowed to request a refund upon a balance change.

Think of it like this, you don't buy a car, then a week later they call it in saying its to comfortable so they are going to make it worse and slow it down as well and refuse to let you return it. If you provide a service or product it should remain the same as when you bought it (apart from if you damage it or wear) or if it is forced into being changed you should be allowed a refund. It just seems refusing a refund is not just immoral its illegal as well.

Welcome to the world of free to play, now bend over and exhale please :eek:

You 'rent' PlanetSide 2... you don't own it.

With the Free to play model do your really rent or own anything ?

[PredatorFour]

Soe missed out on a great opportunity to rake in cash here, more so than the controversial buying of implants that's coming.

They say you can unlock all certs and that is why there is no cert resets.... ok. What they don't realize is (and probably because they don't play the game) is that it is a massive cert grind and people get bored and don't want to play another 10 days of game time to get where they want to be. If they would of charged a station cash fee for a cert reset, probably most of the customer base would of bought into that. I have spent little on this game but i would of bought one. I know loads of people that all would of bought a cert reset.

Like i said soe missed a MASSIVE opportunity to get sales through this in their shortsightedness.

[Qwan]

Soe missed out on a great opportunity to rake in cash here, more so than the controversial buying of implants that's coming.

They say you can unlock all certs and that is why there is no cert resets.... ok. What they don't realize is (and probably because they don't play the game) is that it is a massive cert grind and people get bored and don't want to play another 10 days of game time to get where they want to be. If they would of charged a station cash fee for a cert reset, probably most of the customer base would of bought into that. I have spent little on this game but i would of bought one. I know loads of people that all would of bought a cert reset.

Like i said soe missed a MASSIVE opportunity to get sales through this in their shortsightedness.

Please dont give SOE any more idea's, there design and game play of PS2 initially was bad enough. There just now getting thing in order please refrane from adding to the termoil. Just let them get the mess fixed that they call PS2.

[Roderick]

The way I see it, if you feel that you were mislead by SOE due to changes made to virtual items paid with real money, take it up with your local Better Business Bureau or similar agency of your state or locality. A good portions of the responses I read on various forums cite the EULA, etc, but that does not define your rights regarding the sales law of your state or locality.

If you seriously want a refund, go fight for it. The worst case scenario is that you lose and get no refund. At least you will have made an attempt to get your money back and in the process will learn something about consumer buyer rights for any future virtual purchases you make going forward.

[Qwan]

The way I see it, if you feel that you were mislead by SOE due to changes made to virtual items paid with real money, take it up with your local Better Business Bureau or similar agency of your state or locality. A good portions of the responses I read on various forums cite the EULA, etc, but that does not define your rights regarding the sales law of your state or locality.

If you seriously want a refund, go fight for it. The worst case scenario is that you lose and get no refund. At least you will have made an attempt to get your money back and in the process will learn something about consumer buyer rights for any future virtual purchases you make going forward.

Good point Roderick, but unfortinatly the EULA for SOE is pretty solid, I also found a little somthing online breaking the legal status of virtual items.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverherzfeld/2012/12/04/what-is-the-legal-status-of-virtual-goods/

I mean the most we can do is a in game sit in, or online boycot of the SOE product. Or you can even start a purchasing strike, but with this free to play concept many of the current players dont even invest in the game. To keep it real though I know a lot of people who create accounts check it out say they dont like it. So honestly if you spent station cash for a item and they decide to nerf it, your pretty much *&%$ :bananasex But there is a bright side to it......

[Emperor Newt]

700 certs. That's like a day.
Judging from my overall score/min that's about 8.5 hours of solid playtime for me. And I already have used some boosts, a short membership and double xp weekends. I really don't want to judge on how much "Joe Average" has to play to get 700 certs.
But maybe I am just playing the game too much how it is intended to be played and should farm more... It's odd when game mechanics reward you more for faming people with a grenade launcher then getting to the objective. Something is just wrong there.

But to be on topic, I still hope for cert and sc refund tokens. Yes, even sc refund. Make them cost 1000 sc if you wish. I would pay that becasue it would still be a "win" situation for me.
Nothing is lost as long as it costs money. It's a win-win situation for both sides. Who cares if people can redo some purchases they regret as long as they pay money for it? You could even make it a one purchase per year thing if people still feel offended for what ever reason. (Of course cert resets tokens should be purchasable with certs too)

[Baneblade]

With the Free to play model do your really rent or own anything ?

It doesn't matter what the actual model is. The concept is the same.

[Shogun]

ps2 stands for players scammed (x2)

[ChipMHazard]

ps2 stands for players scammed (x2)

Uh-huh. Very constructive that...

Closing this one down since there's no C4 nerf coming at this point in time and there are other threads for discussing the need for refund tokens. Discussing the need for legal changes in how video games, virtual items etc. are categorized (Thus which rights one would have) is not a discussion that belongs in the PS2 part of the forum but the general forums.