ESF pilots revolt!!!!

[snafus]

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/

It seems someone has thought it was a good idea to bring nerfs to vertical thrust for ESF. The above link mentions their new change they have placed on the test server. Now if you enjoy the amazing flight mechanics that PS2 gives to us then please share your thoughts on the proposed changes.

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/

These are two post that are actively against these changes taking place on the live server. Please share your opinion as this is something that needs to be discussed and scrutinized greatly.

Edit: I was wanting to try and make a comparison video myself but Sebdollar on ps2 offcial forums did this video. Just gives everyone a visual difference on the PST versus live.

http://youtu.be/gf_BrOkstjc

[DarkBalths]

To be honest, ESFs shouldn't be able to hover at all. They're jet fighters, not helicopters. One of the reasons so many people bitch about ESFs and people lolpodding is because they can just hover and farm. Nerfing the flat-out vertical thrust is a step in the right direction. ESFs really shouldn't be able to go under 100kph, unless they're landing.
That's my opinion.

[Stardouser]

To be honest, ESFs shouldn't be able to hover at all. They're jet fighters, not helicopters. One of the reasons so many people bitch about ESFs and people lolpodding is because they can just hover and farm. Nerfing the flat-out vertical thrust is a step in the right direction. ESFs really shouldn't be able to go under 100kph, unless they're landing.
That's my opinion.

This. Nerf(not remove, just nerf; maybe have a transition to hover time?) hovering and increase pre-afterburner cruise speed by 75 or so across the board, and add some big hit 1 shot weapons.

[snafus]

To be honest, ESFs shouldn't be able to hover at all. They're jet fighters, not helicopters. One of the reasons so many people bitch about ESFs and people lolpodding is because they can just hover and farm. Nerfing the flat-out vertical thrust is a step in the right direction. ESFs really shouldn't be able to go under 100kph, unless they're landing.
That's my opinion.

Issue is Dark is that they went with a VTOL aircraft setup. Now if they kept a fixed wing aircraft concept from beta then that is what we would all be used to. Currently to take away our ability to quickly transfer from hover to forward flight along with vertical thrust strips us of our ability to compete in game.

Good pilots will be using vertical thrust for almost every aspect of the game. Any good A2G pilot will more then likely need to pop into a hover to put an entire magazine of rockets on a target to get that one kill. Or while dog fighting you will need to execute a reverse maneuver to get an angle on your opponent.

Now vertical thrust changes are not the end of the world. For me personally I will un sub and probably not play the game anymore. Simply due to I love the unique flight mechanics that PS2 offer. If I was after a more generic flight based game I would go for BF3 or the multitudes of other flight based mmo's out there currently. Not attacking you either man just kind of heated over SOE turning against their flying community without even speaking to any of it.

[CrankyTRex]

I'd have to see the changes in action before making a judgment, but I've also long thought they needed to decide if these things are helos or jets and go with it.

Personally I'd prefer more jet-like flight mechanics since I find the current system rather limiting.

[Ghoest9]

ESF should have had vertical thrust(other than take off) from the start.

[phungus]

Time to stop paying money if you have a subrscription and fly an ESF. I was planning on dropping around $50 with the ESF update, but that's not going to happen now that my main enjoyment and really entire reason I play this game is getting straight up removed.

But really Snafu we're not that important, the game will go on. But if you fly an ESF, money talks and you should immediately pull yours.

Also Star Citizen will make this all moot.

[snafus]

Time to stop paying money if you have a subrscription and fly an ESF. I was planning on dropping around $50 with the ESF update, but that's not going to happen now that my main enjoyment and really entire reason I play this game is getting straight up removed.

But really Snafu we're not that important, the game will go on. But if you fly an ESF, money talks and you should immediately pull yours.

Also Star Citizen will make this all moot.

Pretty much, already planning on buying another ship on star citizen. Think the hornet may end up being my next purchase for them. As far as ps2 goes, I will keep my sub until they go through with this nonsense. I still have hope that they wont be this dumb once community reaction gets out.

[phungus]

ESF should have had vertical thrust(other than take off) from the start.

Why?

I've never once heard a good argument as to why ESFs shouldn't fly the way they do. ESFs in PS2 are the most engaging video game experience I know of. The only people that complain about them view PS2 as an infantry based game, and simply want ESFs nerfed/removed. You are aparently getting what you want, and ESF gameplay is being removed as we currently know it, and PS2 will be going to a poor man's BF3 flight model... yipee that sounds like great gameplay...

Again though, why, other then the fact you hate ESFs and you want them removed, do you think it's a good idea to destroy the unique and incredibly engaging/high skill cap ESF gameplay currently in PS2?

[Isokon]

Now vertical thrust changes are not the end of the world. For me personally I will un sub and probably not play the game anymore. Simply due to I love the unique flight mechanics that PS2 offer. If I was after a more generic flight based game I would go for BF3 or the multitudes of other flight based mmo's out there currently. Not attacking you either man just kind of heated over SOE turning against their flying community without even speaking to any of it.
The mechanic did not change, only it's output value was decreased. If the effect of ABs on vertical thrust had been higher and was now changed to the level it has on live, would you also threaten to leave? Where is the threshold?

[phungus]

The mechanic did not change, only it's output value was decreased. If the effect of ABs on vertical thrust had been higher and was now changed to the level it has on live, would you also threaten to leave? Where is the threshold?

Yeah, I spoke too soon.

Just checked the test server, the changes do not wreck the flight model. Much ado about nothing if this is the change.

I consider tweaks like that par for the course and part of the development process the devs have outlined here.

[GeoGnome]

I have nothing useful to put forward as I am not a pilot. Dedicated pilots definetely have an opinion, and with an issue like this I would say that their opinions should be the one most listened to. To be frank, they are the ones this effects the most, it's their portion of the sandbox.

That said, this whole thing is giving me flashbacks of the proposed C4 nerf about a month ago. Not saying it isn't likely that this could happen, just saying that I wouldn't be shocked if the outcry meant that the whole thing went away inside of a week.

[snafus]

The mechanic did not change, only it's output value was decreased. If the effect of ABs on vertical thrust had been higher and was now changed to the level it has on live, would you also threaten to leave? Where is the threshold?

It being decreased is a change Isokon. You will only be able to perform capable vertical thrust with the planned cert tree from after fuel pods. Leaving everyone else with a dumbed down experience that is planned to lower the skill ceiling to be more new player friendly.

Not to mention how badly A2G pilots will suffer as they will be forced to do hit and run attacks with already pitiful weapons. Taking pilots ability to stay mobile while in a hover position is critical in PS2 as all the past balance sweeps have been built around that system.

And back during live it was only the Reaver that had a OP vertical thrust capability, and it was rightfully corrected. The current system is a thing of beauty as pilots have so much freedom in game. Giving PS2 a unique and skill demanding flight aspect. As I said on an earlier post why fix something that is simply not broken.

[phungus]

Things seemed fine on test Snafu. Granted I flew my hover sythe, but while manuevering differently, it only felt tweaked and I could still manuever just fine.

[ChipMHazard]

Personally I had hoped that they were going to make the ESF combat less about circling your enemy and more akin to conventional dogfighting. I'm not a fan of how ESFs work and I've grown bored of dogfighting, but I don't see this change actually changing anything major. Not sure why SOE is targeting the reverse maneuver, but this might be something that has to be seen alongside the incoming ESF changes. Or it may just be because they see that maneuver as being an unfair advantage or they just want to try and change things up a bit.

I do think this thread is just like Phungus wrote; much ado about nothing. Or rather I don't see it being as terrible as some of the comments, that I've read on Reddit and the official forum, and this thread title seem to claim.

[Figment]

So, is or isn't the sky (or whatever is in it) falling?

[Valkar]

As a full time pilot who uses reverse thrust this for me is a welcome change that will really make flying more fun and less frustrating for new players.

For me whilst RPT was very powerful and effective, making any pilot who could do it a god vs any that couldnt, I do prefer to see fighters actually dogfighting and not hover in front of eachother.

Many pilots won't like it because now they will need to adjust their play style and fly their fighter like, well a fighter.

I appreciate it was unique to Planetside 2 but I honestly believe that such a move would better suit a new air vehicle thats more of a helicopter (futuristic of course)

I do also think this change will see a sudden and sharp change in the top pilots list, again something I welcome so people have to change and up their game.

[PredatorFour]

As a full time scythe pilot i gotta say i'm more pissed off at the recent nose gun changes. Dunno why they had to change them, makes me worried for the esf update.

As for the vertical thrust nerf i think it's good. While they are at it they should increase the speed of the air frame and make the dogfight frame turn even sharper/faster. Then we could possibly have real choices when it comes to air frames and really competent airframes at that. So the speed frame would be super fast, the hover frame would ...hover well, the dogfight frame be super agile.

[Canaris]

more fly less hover can only be a good thing

[Kirotan]

Personally I had hoped that they were going to make the ESF combat less about circling your enemy and more akin to conventional dogfighting. I'm not a fan of how ESFs work and I've grown bored of dogfighting, but I don't see this change actually changing anything major. Not sure why SOE is targeting the reverse maneuver, but this might be something that has to be seen alongside the incoming ESF changes. Or it may just be because they see that maneuver as being an unfair advantage or they just want to try and change things up a bit.

I do think this thread is just like Phungus wrote; much ado about nothing. Or rather I don't see it being as terrible as some of the comments, that I've read on Reddit and the official forum, and this thread title seem to claim.

Bad pilot's opinion here.

Conventional or traditional dogfighting is very highly romanticized and not at all exciting. Without the reverse maneuver whoever gets to ambush the other is probably going to win because your only options are to rely on wingmen or hope the other pilot is really bad. It's also who can make tighter turns

I like flying in this game, and I do it a lot. But I suck at flying. If there's a good pilot who's name you've heard of, from Snafu, Mittmoren, Ironfist...they've all shot me down repeatedly.

You know what I am good at? Ambushing. I can sneak up on anyone. Removing the reverse maneuver would suddenly make me a "good" pilot because the most important criteria once that is changed is not "Who can fly better?," it's "Who gets in the first shot?"

Edit: I guess they're not removing it, but if they were, "traditional dogfighting" is not the awesome mental picture I get of it. :)

[typhaon]

We'll have to see how it plays out, but I think it's likely a step in the right direction.

[Roderick]

I feel the "air reverse" maneuver was never intended to be in the game and more of an accidental find. Now most one on ones with air seem to result in this same boring climax. Stop, lets see who can air reverse first and PRESTO!, I am over you now and you will not have time to do anything and prepare to be owned.

I support the more traditional dogfighting mechanic of other FPS games.

Speed, juking, twists and turns. Not about seeing who can hover above first so the player below me has no time to counter because A) they do not know how to do the maneuver themselves, or B) they are fucked because they may be out of afterburner power whereby leaving them pretty much screwed unless they have pitch up bound and have awesome aim to counter the sudden scenario change from below.

I am in minority it seems that support this change. When the game was in Beta and this maneuver was somewhat rare, I had a lot of fun in the air. Now, I have become very disinterested in flying unless it is for an outfit OP.

[Shamrock]

Even the most minor adjustment to ESF mechanics seems to get the vocal minority screaming from the rooftops that its game breaking for them and they are taking their ball and going home, how about going on to the PTS and trying it out first.

[Mastachief]

The reaver is now a brick on the PTS the mossie seems to be less effected, havent tried the scythe yet.

[Bobby Shaftoe]

The RM only works on bad pilots who follow the person doing it.

You engage a target, you have the initiative, they do the RM as an attempt to take the initiative, you don't follow them, they haven't taken it, at best they're now on an 'equal' footing but you've already got the damage/hit advantage.

It's the exact same counter-play to powersliding in PS1, they powerslide first, you just watch them til they're about halfway done and do it yourself, they attempt to RM, you just sit back and pepper them from range, 90% of pilots that try to RM me end up having to fly right back at me because I've been sitting way back sniping them instead of chasing them through the RM flying into their shots.

It's a visually impressive move used to dominate bad pilots.

[Redshift]

The problem is if the reverse maneuvure is broken then there is no way to get an ESF off of you, you just can't lose a half decent pilot unless you can pull v thrust based maneuvers

[Jonny]

I'm all for changes that make 1 on 1 esf fights less about who can thrust upwards and turn to face the enemy quicker. Sometimes dogfights amount to turning on the spot to the point of falling out the sky. I think it's most fun taking jousting style runs at the enemy or chasing/losing them through evasive fast flying round terrain.

[Boildown]

This is a good change. The current flight dynamics are a joke and couldn't have been intended when they designed the ESFs. And yes I fly the Reaver quite a bit.

[Osskscosco]

So, is or isn't the sky (or whatever is in it) falling?

It's falling, just like when they nerfed magrider and the game died...oh wait, they stopped whining after a few weeks.

Elitists crying now, after patch they will still win dogfights so they will stop whining too.

[KesTro]

more fly less hover can only be a good thing

I've spent my fair time in a Reaver, nothing super hardcore (80 hours). Even I have to admit that these changes will be nothing but good. If anything it will raise the skill ceiling as you now have to use your environment even more to shake off a good pilot.

I suspect this Vert thrust change has something to do with the lock on change they plan to make.

[SolLeks]

After trying it on the test server, there is no point to even use the reverse manuver after these changes.


This will boil the game down to who can circle faster and who gets the drop first...

Why take the skill out of flying?

The flight model would have to change drastically to make the 'traditional style dogfighting' work (we can't change speed based on pitch or diving) meaning that this will dumb down the air game significantly.

If I wanted to play BF3 jets, I would play BF3... They are taking a unique flight model and turning it into a poor version of a normal flight model.

[maradine]

I'm an ESF pilot. Revolt is the furthest thing from my mind if this gets to Live. Sorry.

[Dragonskin]

I don't have much of value to add other than every vehicle I have used has been nerfed/buffed repeatedly over the last year or so. I don't think this change will kill the game. Most players will adept and continue playing if they really like the game. Whiners will leave if they feel entitled to a specific play style that was removed. Life will go on and Planetside 2 will still be here.

As far as ESF updates in general. Each part we get is one of many parts. We won't know the final vision until all the planned ESF updates are rolled out. Who is to say this change will negatively impact game play once we see the end result?

[Fenrys]

Seems like a good change that will bring the 3 ESF closer to being balanced. A good Reaver pilot could whip their craft around like it was a stunt flyer and not an armed and armored combat aircraft.

[SolLeks]

Seems like a good change that will bring the 3 ESF closer to being balanced. A good Reaver pilot could whip their craft around like it was a stunt flyer and not an armed and armored combat aircraft.


Fyi, all 3 esf can do the reverse maneuvers the same speed, reavers just get about 20kph faster v thrust to offset our larger hitbox, scythes when seen from the front will displace faster even eith the lower speed.

Tl;dr- please look up some information befor you spread lies.

[Timealude]

I dont know how much input I have on this matter as im not an ESF pilot anymore, but I have tried to learn to fly again after launch and ever since the reverse maneuver was discovered I no longer even feel the desire to fly as Ill be shot down by a mossy or reaver the moment I take off. In fact, the only reason I even pull a scythe is to get from one end of the map to the other and just drop out with an ejection seat.

I play on mattherson and pretty much NC dominate air on that server because of a few outfits. If the skill cap was lowered, like higby said they were going to, we might actually have an air force of our own.

[Sturmhardt]

Less hovering and farming of ESFs would be a good thing. They could get a small armor boost for compensation or whatever...

[Ghoest9]

Why?

I've never once heard a good argument as to why ESFs shouldn't fly the way they do. ESFs in PS2 are the most engaging video game experience I know of. The only people that complain about them view PS2 as an infantry based game, and simply want ESFs nerfed/removed. You are aparently getting what you want, and ESF gameplay is being removed as we currently know it, and PS2 will be going to a poor man's BF3 flight model... yipee that sounds like great gameplay...

Again though, why, other then the fact you hate ESFs and you want them removed, do you think it's a good idea to destroy the unique and incredibly engaging/high skill cap ESF gameplay currently in PS2?



Why?

ESF should be good at dog fighting and terrible at ground attack.
Ive said this since tech beta.

[Sturmhardt]

Why?

ESF should be good at dog fighting and terrible at ground attack.
Ive said this since tech beta.

And you are absolutely right. In return the ground should be worse at attacking air units, but yeah... ESF should rock at air combat and suck at a2g.

[Varsam]

I'd be all for this change... If it went hand in hand with numerous changes to flight mechanics to make it actually valuable to perform traditional aerial maneuvers. In the current game, most of them will just get you killed - trust me, I've killed lots and lots of pilots trying to yoyo me.

All this change would do is lower the skill ceiling - essentially he who fires first wins, even more so than it already is now.

[Ghoest9]

And you are absolutely right. In return the ground should be worse at attacking air units, but yeah... ESF should rock at air combat and suck at a2g.

If ESF totally sucked at attacking ground I would be fine with ESF being largely immune to ground fire.

[Larington]

There were 5 voices on our outfit forums about this, all in favour, including a pilot who uses reverse thrust. I'm much more in favour of pilots needing to occasionally call in wingmates to assist or drawing the pursuing ESF over friendly AA, rather than reverse thrusting being so obviously the best thing to do that there's no question of doing anything but - removing all semblence of "what do I do now?" and turning it into "I know what to do now". Made flying for me utterly uninteresting regardless of whether I'm the pursuer or the pursued.

What especially bugged me about it was where I'd be flying a Scythe, I'm not a great pilot but whatever, and the guy would pull the trick and be flying backwards at the same speed I'm flying forward. If this was a space shooting/flying game with proper physics I'd completely understand, but right from the get go this was clearly a glitch that was left alone long enough for people to start assuming it was intentional. I don't think it was and I'll be glad to see its effectiveness reduced.

As a ground driver, soldier, and lib crewman you're always looking to who will watch your back or assist you, I fail to see why the same shouldn't apply to ESF's looking to wingmen to assist when needed.

[phungus]

There were 5 voices on our outfit forums about this, all in favour, including a pilot who uses reverse thrust. I'm much more in favour of pilots needing to occasionally call in wingmates to assist or drawing the pursuing ESF over friendly AA, rather than reverse thrusting being so obviously the best thing to do that there's no question of doing anything but - removing all semblence of "what do I do now?" and turning it into "I know what to do now". Made flying for me utterly uninteresting regardless of whether I'm the pursuer or the pursued.

What especially bugged me about it was where I'd be flying a Scythe, I'm not a great pilot but whatever, and the guy would pull the trick and be flying backwards at the same speed I'm flying forward. If this was a space shooting/flying game with proper physics I'd completely understand, but right from the get go this was clearly a glitch that was left alone long enough for people to start assuming it was intentional. I don't think it was and I'll be glad to see its effectiveness reduced.

As a ground driver, soldier, and lib crewman you're always looking to who will watch your back or assist you, I fail to see why the same shouldn't apply to ESF's looking to wingmen to assist when needed.

Reversing is going to get you killed if someone who can aim well is on your tail, you must use terrain, along with the reverse (and other unique movement possibilities with the current ESF flight model) to survive if someone is on your tail. It is true though that against pilots with bad aim (which are most) reversing will win you the engagement, simply because you can actually fire at your target and he can't aim well enough to hit you. With traditional flight models you simply can't ever get your enemy in LOS to kill them, which is where the BF3 model circljerkers really want to take ESF gameplay. It's a flight model that has worked. By better I mean making more $$$, and using that more traditional flight model may well be better.

I doubt it though. The way ESFs fly makes for the most engaging combat I know of - especially since if you kill all air you can begin wrecking infantry and harrassing vehicles with the rotary which can have an impact on battles. I never spent that much time flying BF3 jets, but I spent alot of time playing Allegiance, and am looking very forward to Star Citizen; I really hope Star Citzen has similar flight potential, with the ability to shif thrusters in multiple directions to give more possible decisions for the player to make - and more possible manuevers.

I guess that's why the current ESF model to me seems far superior to going toward the traditional BF3 fixed wing model. The fixed wing model is based on pressure gradients formed on the wing creating lift - there really isn't any reason to force this restriction on a simulation meant for 500 years future tech. By giving the player more options of directions and vectors they move their craft, you simply create more intricate combat, which is why ESF fights with players at your skill level are the most exillarting thing out there.

I really don't think the idea of killing the PS2 flight model and going to a simulated Fixed wing model will improve gameplay. But it very well may be the better choice.

[Baneblade]

And you are absolutely right. In return the ground should be worse at attacking air units, but yeah... ESF should rock at air combat and suck at a2g.

Until you bring in a Liberator. That is what the ESF's biggest problem is tbh, the fact we have to have AA balanced vs Libs.

[Kirotan]

Has SOE even given a reason why they made this change? I mean, I guess most of us are assuming it's because they want to close the skill gap between newer and veteran pilots?

[Kail]

All they did was reduce the magnitude provided to the vertical jets via afterburner, correct? So you should still be able to do the reverse maneuver to turn around. And probably still fly backwards - just at a little above normal vertical thrust rate instead of near forward velocity.

Regardless of all that, I personally don't mind the change. I'll have to hop on the PTS to see how it feels; perhaps reducing it to 4x multiplier instead of 2x feels better while still reducing the crutch of the learning the reverse maneuver.

[Tatwi]

more fly less hover can only be a good thingAye. This was something that I suggested in beta, because I felt it would be better for game in the long term. When an air vehicle can stop in the air and turn on the spot, there's no reason to ever do anything else in any fight. As a result, all of the terrain features and the concept of altitude become useless, which is a waste of game play depth. When you're forced to keep flying forward to stay in the air, your surroundings become more meaningful.

Good luck with the game. Hope it works out for you folks.

[EVILoHOMER]

Why are they messing around with something that isn't broken?

FIX THE DAMN BASES!

[Rolfski]

I'm opposing this "revolt". Flying an ESF is instant death = not fun for 80% of the players. You just stand no chance against all these BR 100 reverse thrusting ninja's. This has got to change.

Reaching the skill ceiling in an ESF should be an insanely long trajectory that will only reward you minor advantages over 80% of the players that are mediocre dog fighters but actually have fun flying an ESF because most people are on their same level.

And don't even think that reverse trusting is just a simple manoeuvre for most people that will make them a good dogfighter when they manage it. It's really not. It's completely unintuitive and strange physics that you specifically need to train on but even if you have managed it, will still loose you your dogfights most of the time.

Becoming a better pilot in this game is just not fun atm but the biggest problem with ESF's is at its core: Combining gunship helicopter with jet fighter mechanics is what causes most of the (balancing) issues with ESF's.

[EVILoHOMER]

I don't find aircraft fun anymore really, it's gone to what Planetside became where you cannot fly near a battle or your instantly get hit by AA. So you end up having to run away all the time...

It was fine how it used to be, it was the map design that was the problem cause bases give barely any cover.

[Obstruction]

When an air vehicle can stop in the air and turn on the spot, there's no reason to ever do anything else in any fight. As a result, all of the terrain features and the concept of altitude become useless, which is a waste of game play depth. When you're forced to keep flying forward to stay in the air, your surroundings become more meaningful.

this poster doesn't really know what they're talking about here. that's not an insult, but rather an observation. and i'm not picking on this poster exactly, but more picking on the sentiment repeated throughout the thread, which this seems to sum up. they seem to give some significance to hovering that really isn't there. anyone i see sitting still gets murdered fast. there are way too many options in this environment for killing a hovering target, and terrain features are always meaningful in any engagement below 300m, and meaningless above that.

so then, to educate the uninitiated: what is at issue here is not hovering per se, but the reverse maneuver, which takes advantage of flight inertia by using vertical afterburners as a sort of thrust vectoring device. that may be obvious to a lot of the pilots here but i think it bears explaining because the discussion is getting very broadly sidetracked as all the fixed wing idealists and terrible pilots come to chime in about this or that without really knowing what we're on about. it isn't hovering at all, it's flight, in a way that is specific to the design of the vehicle and the physics of the game environment.

that said, i don't think it will be a terrible nerf, but i also don't see why it needs to be changed. it really does enhance the game and make it a unique and exhilarating experience in gaming. bear in mind i'm not even that good at ESF, but i do dogfight them constantly as a Lib pilot. it's also not really an "unfair advantage" for anyone. all ESF can perform it equally. what it is, is a skill ceiling for a skill dominated field of play. and the complaints here are mostly coming from self professed "bad pilots."

it would be like me complaining about low TTK as infantry because i'm not that good at playing on the ground. i'll be the first to say it, i don't play on the ground, i don't enjoy it, my low playtime there means i'm not really that great at it. i can usually manage to stay over 1.0 k/d in a given session but i won't win any awards. on the ground i usually prefer medic and harasser or bangbus driver. it's a playstyle choice i have to make, given the skill ceiling for that environment. and it is much the same with being a pilot. you make your playstyle choice given the skill ceiling and the game environment there, as well. and that means VTOL physics, love them or hate them.

if they nerf the RM too hard it will REQUIRE 3 to 1 odds and lock on missles to take down my team regularly. and, if they were to change the flight model for the ESF to fixed wing and not the Liberator, then the Lib would dominate the skies. and i know what's coming next - complaints that the Lib is a VTOL bomber. well, if they changed the flight model on the Lib it would be worthless in the game environment with the stats it has (acceleration, speed, mass, yaw/pitch/roll response.) and lets face facts, the stock Lib is already the most useless vehicle in the game. it's nearly unplayable.

in other derailments:

i'm pretty sure they have said you will be able to turn off the flight assist in Star Citizen. so it should be a good space sim as long as the instanced battle system doesn't end up ruining gameplay. i am definitely already planning to run a Constellation crew, and then work our way up to a Corvette in-game. i can't wait.

i'm also pretty hyped for EQ3. i hope there's flight combat in that too. haha. but i'll settle for some type of glass cannon mage nuker.

also, did you guys see the ESO footage? WOOF! what a shabby looking game. 5 years in development for a beta that is supposed to be released in six months, and it looks like 3rd year students made the animations and textures. complain about SOE all you want, and the bugs in PS2, but Higby and the boys are WAY ahead of those clowns.

[snafus]

Here are some primary points that show up for me after really thinking these changes through.

1. Obviously dog fighting will take a large impact as anyone who get behind you will have a massive advantage now. Currently the ability to perform a reverse maneuver allows players to engage multiple opponents and if more skillful to actually defeat them. If these changes went through you would find your self solely relying on terrain or wing mates to ever shake someone on your six. Which may not be that bad except if we hit the deck the multitudes of AA in this game will perform insta poof on our squishy asses.

2. Engaging Liberators is already a very dangerous objective if the lib crew is of proper quality. Taking away the ability to stay mobile with vertical thrust will increase your losses against good Dalton gunners ten fold. I would love some of you guys to engage the recursion lib team with a reduction of 8 to 2 on vertical thrust. I'll put a spoiler in here for ya, you will die.

3. A2G ESF will now be forced to rely on hit and run attacks almost purely. As the ability to dodge ground based fire will be almost impossible with the reduction of vertical thrust speed that will hit us. I say this because our pods have been nerfed incredibly hard and take the majority of a magazine to usually kill one infantryman. The ability for a pilot to stay mobile but at the same time keep eyes on an objective is crucial for a proper A2G ESF to be effective. And not to mention I have to hover about 80% the time I engage ground forces simply due to crappy rendering problems. God help you if that fight reaches over a platoon of forces as I have to get about 100-200 meters from the target and wait a few seconds to even see them. To force A2G to rely on strafing runs will rape our ability to deliver accurate or any fire at all on an objective.

4. Almost all of the balancing that has taken place for Air and ground relations is based on current flight mechanics. To even slightly nudge this in either direction throws a very delicate situation out the door. Currently ESF are getting eaten alive by the multitudes of AA based weaponry in PS2. And that is Ok as we still have the ability to be extremely lethal ourselves. But once they reduce the speed we move while in hover you will see our effectiveness plummet. Weather they made the reverse maneuver on purpose or not it is an essential aspect of the game now, That many of us pilots love and cling to. It isn't easy to learn and require lots of practice to perfect. But once mastered it elevates your game and allows you to perform feats in the air other flight games can only dream of.

[Sledgecrushr]

Its probably a good change and something soe should have launched this game with.

[snafus]

Its probably a good change and something soe should have launched this game with.

Wouldn't have been an issue if they launched the game with it. I would not have preferred that mechanic being added but at least that would be the standard. But with them changing part of the flight mechanic in such a drastic way, one year into the games life, seems to be a bit much. Honestly I would really love to hear their motive for the proposed changes. I have a bad feeling this is an attempt at lowering skill ceiling but all they will do is make the game more bland and still difficult to grasp for new players.

[OmegaPREDATOR]

3. A2G ESF will now be forced to rely on hit and run attacks almost purely. As the ability to dodge ground based fire will be almost impossible with the reduction of vertical thrust speed that will hit us. I say this because our pods have been nerfed incredibly hard and take the majority of a magazine to usually kill one infantryman. The ability for a pilot to stay mobile but at the same time keep eyes on an objective is crucial for a proper A2G ESF to be effective. And not to mention I have to hover about 80% the time I engage ground forces simply due to crappy rendering problems. God help you if that fight reaches over a platoon of forces as I have to get about 100-200 meters from the target and wait a few seconds to even see them. To force A2G to rely on strafing runs will rape our ability to deliver accurate or any fire at all on an objective.

That's the only good thing in this NERF. But as always SOE have strange idea (to be polite).

Liberators ARE the A2G force and ESD have to be A2A force (Liberator escort/hunter). But actually ESD are A2A + A2G force and it's not a good thing.

BUT nerfing V-thrust is the less intelligent to do. Because in A2A reverse maneuver is the only way to try to stay alive against other ESF (and Dalton Libs).

So the ESF who will behind will almost win all the time now. The only way to try to escape will to run faster to the warpgate or skygards/AA MAX allied force and in that game the powerfull ESF is the Mosquito (and don't say a Reaver with auxiliary tank + afterburner and Dpees 3 will escape easier, Mosquito don't care at all and stay on the tail).

If you want you could maneuvre to pass behind the attacking ESF (I will not say dogfight cause it will no more have after that NERF) and what ESD is the best in maneuvrability ? Scythe ...

Reaver have the best hover ability and nothing else (except bigger hit box) so NC will have a worse NERF than other pilots (here I just want to say balance is totally forget in this NERF).

Here the way SOE may have think the modification :


ESF are to good against ground forces with the lol-pod, we need to do something !
Nerfing ESF ?
Great ! We could now pass to the more intersting question of the day : our design are poor and players start to yell against that so we have to find something who cost near nothing (and memory consomption is not a problem as we don't care at all) ...


Yes that's ironic but I already say this NERF was a bad idea (for be polite).

The only problem is ESF have really poverfull lol-pod who is a better A2G than Liberator weapons.

Just make the nerf here, a lol-pod nerf ONLY not a ESF nerf.
The easy way to do that is to remove the munition of lol-pod -> just a rocket clip and that's it. You shoot all, you return at a airpad to re-arm (more reallistic game play). No more rocket farm/spam and 1 ESF will no more be allowed to be the PS2 BFR (yes it's an hyperbol).

[Zadexin]

To be honest, ESFs shouldn't be able to hover at all. They're jet fighters, not helicopters. One of the reasons so many people bitch about ESFs and people lolpodding is because they can just hover and farm. Nerfing the flat-out vertical thrust is a step in the right direction. ESFs really shouldn't be able to go under 100kph, unless they're landing.
That's my opinion.

I agree with this sentiment. ESF = Empire Specific FIGHTER. Not Helicopter, not gunship, not hoverer. I've seen 'clever' ESF pilots do the most asinine things like hover nose down right over the top of spawn zones and 'pod anyone that walks out the door.

I don't know about 100kph but they should have require horizontal movement to stay in flight. This whole, "everything is a helicopter" crap is really bad. OR, if ESFs can hover nose down, give me the ability on EVERY tank mounted weapon to aim 90 degrees straight up.

[maradine]

This thread is not about the general inclusion of hover capability on ESFs. No change currently proposed or under discussion is removing it. There are plenty of other threads on ESF AtG capabilities in general if that's your gripe.

[OmegaPREDATOR]

I agree with this sentiment. ESF = Empire Specific FIGHTER. Not Helicopter, not gunship, not hoverer. I've seen 'clever' ESF pilots do the most asinine things like hover nose down right over the top of spawn zones and 'pod anyone that walks out the door.

You want realistic infiltrators ? Tanks ? Weapons ? With PS2 you doint it wrong. What don't you don't understand on "futuristic" game ? If you want realistic modern warfare there is enought game you can play.

As you say lol-pods are the problem not hover.

[Calista]

Flying in this game pretty much sucks unless you are dedicated to it. I applaud SOE for backing down the skill ceiling. It was way too damn high.

[SolLeks]

Flying in this game pretty much sucks unless you are dedicated to it. I applaud SOE for backing down the skill ceiling. It was way too damn high.

I so wanted to make a troll statement for this comment, it is to easy, but I will not because the mods will get mad at me >.>

[Thunderhawk]

I'm an ESF pilot. Revolt is the furthest thing from my mind if this gets to Live. Sorry.

Couldn't have said it better myself

People need to grow up and get used to lack of Reverse thrust and if they don't like it, then just leave the game, Elite pilots make up 1% of the player base, you won't be missed.

[Wahooo]

Wouldn't have been an issue if they launched the game with it. I would not have preferred that mechanic being added but at least that would be the standard. But with them changing part of the flight mechanic in such a drastic way, one year into the games life, seems to be a bit much. Honestly I would really love to hear their motive for the proposed changes. I have a bad feeling this is an attempt at lowering skill ceiling but all they will do is make the game more bland and still difficult to grasp for new players.

I think it just boils down to they didn't know what people were capable of doing and had to tweak this to come in line with the original concept.

Not really that different from a lot of the changes to the game from AMS no deploy zones and base re-design to limit where AMS's deployed and shields and walls and basically forcing people away from doing things the devs didn't expect.

I disagree with making such a whole sale change to a major play style even though it doesn't really affect me. It would just seem it took them a while to figure out what exactly was making flying ESFs so different from their original vision.

Remember a loud outcry about something broken in PS1 was the jack of all trades best choice for all things Reaver needed changing.
Right now with ESFs there is 1 airframe choice that is so far above the others in overall benefit it becomes the only choice. I guess this is the first step in an answer to that.

[snafus]

Couldn't have said it better myself

People need to grow up and get used to lack of Reverse thrust and if they don't like it, then just leave the game, Elite pilots make up 1% of the player base, you won't be missed.

Or you could L2P and not beg for the game to be brought down to your level.

[Lucidius]

This argument reminds me of the exploiting done in Gunz: The Dual being considered a legit playstyle or an exploit in engine mechanics and cheating.

Either way, i'm all for making esf's more approachable (they currently arn't) and having them behave more I'm more concerned with the TTK's of esf's with the new vulcans PAIRED WITH this change in overall mobillity of all esf's (spoilers: not a good mix)

[SolLeks]

This argument reminds me of the exploiting done in Gunz: The Dual being considered a legit playstyle or an exploit in engine mechanics and cheating.

Either way, i'm all for making esf's more approachable (they currently arn't) and having them behave more I'm more concerned with the TTK's of esf's with the new vulcans PAIRED WITH this change in overall mobillity of all esf's (spoilers: not a good mix)

dude, Gunz would be such a bad game if it was not for stuff like the double butterfly and slash shot.

My little brother still plays that game and watching duals of him vs a good player are quite entertaining.

[KesTro]

dude, Gunz would be such a bad game if it was not for stuff like the double butterfly and slash shot.

My little brother still plays that game and watching duals of him vs a good player are quite entertaining.

#K-style Yolo.

In all seriousness though I'll have to see how this change plays out on live servers. Currently I'm of the mind that this will impact the air game positively. You'll have more people to shoot down and can't so easily 1v2 aircraft without using your environment yo your advantage.

It's not like you won't be able to out-fly people still you'll just have to be smart about t now instead of relying on a maneuver.

[Thunderhawk]

Or you could L2P and not beg for the game to be brought down to your level.

I am able to do the ESF RTM, so "learning to play" isn't why I think this change is good, but go ahead and make assumptions about why people have differing opinions to your own.

"ESF pilots revolt" is a generalization that gives the impression we're all revolting, when you need to realize that the amount of people "revolting" and the amount that will quit over this are pretty damn small.

[PredatorFour]

I am able to do the ESF RTM, so "learning to play" isn't why I think this change is good, but go ahead and make assumptions about why people have differing opinions to your own.

"ESF pilots revolt" is a generalization that gives the impression we're all revolting, when you need to realize that the amount of people "revolting" and the amount that will quit over this are pretty damn small.

Add me to that same list. I can rtm but i find it incredibly noobish when dogfighting. It's just ridiculous when you see people flying off backwards in an engagement.

If you chase them down as they reverse, lead them and shoot them, they die. They lose all momentum and get stuck in the air. Just remember to keep twisting as you chase them down so they struggle to hit you and use your momentum to your advantage when they lose theirs.

But all that is irrelevent with these incoming changes and it's going to be alot more fun fighting multiple ESF's in the skies.

[SolLeks]

#K-style Yolo.

In all seriousness though I'll have to see how this change plays out on live servers. Currently I'm of the mind that this will impact the air game positively. You'll have more people to shoot down and can't so easily 1v2 aircraft without using your environment yo your advantage.

It's not like you won't be able to out-fly people still you'll just have to be smart about t now instead of relying on a maneuver.

Currently on live, When people try to run from me and even if they use the legs of the bio labs / parts of the tech plants to fly through and around, 99% of the time as long as there is no outside interference, there is no way they will EVER get away from me. Turning to run against a good pilot = death, and that is a hard and fast rule of todays air game that will carry over if the RM is nerfed.

If running = death, and not being able to turn on your opponent because the move has been so neutered it = death, then any time you get a good pilot on your tail, without outside interference and not banking on the chance that they will screw up, you are dead.

Some time kestro, we should go on the test server and fight each other, that will give you a good feel for how bad the air game will become. Just poke me in TS.


Also, I sucked at K style and always had a hard time with the wall slash shot (the one where you can do a wall jump, fire your weapon and do a wall jump again while never losing height)


Add me to that same list. I can rtm but i find it incredibly noobish when dogfighting. It's just ridiculous when you see people flying off backwards in an engagement.

If you chase them down as they reverse, lead them and shoot them, they die. They lose all momentum and get stuck in the air. Just remember to keep twisting as you chase them down so they struggle to hit you and use your momentum to your advantage when they lose theirs.

But all that is irrelevent with these incoming changes and it's going to be alot more fun fighting multiple ESF's in the skies.


I just want to ask you, Have you ever shaken a good pilot off your tail or been shaken off yourself without using the RM? It can happen, but its extremely rare, and doing stuff like real barrel rolls only works on lesser pilots as your aircraft becomes very slow (and thus easy to keep up with) wile they can fly in a line (thus hard to lose) and shoot you as you pass certain points in the rolls.

[PredatorFour]

In short, yes i have but it has been using scenery to help. I always keep as low as possible to limit getting seen first. Obviously if your flying high expecting to do a RM as soon as an aircraft decides to shoot you down, your going to get seen easy.

If a good pilot sees you first and your on your own, you should die in my eyes. Good positioning of attack, with suprise, will make them turn into flames.

This change is likely to benefit big air fights between multiple ESF's and i'm looking forward to see if it really does.

I just wanna state though that i do have concerns with ESF play, mainly with the nose gun changes they brought in. News of OP weapons they're bringing in too sounds like its going to really suck. They might not stop until every class/ vehicle is easy to kill people whether your noob or ace.

[SolLeks]

In short, yes i have but it has been using scenery to help. I always keep as low as possible to limit getting seen first. Obviously if your flying high expecting to do a RM as soon as an aircraft decides to shoot you down, your going to get seen easy.

If a good pilot sees you first and your on your own, you should die in my eyes. Good positioning of attack, with suprise, will make them turn into flames.

This change is likely to benefit big air fights between multiple ESF's and i'm looking forward to see if it really does.

I just wanna state though that i do have concerns with ESF play, mainly with the nose gun changes they brought in. News of OP weapons they're bringing in too sounds like its going to really suck. They might not stop until every class/ vehicle is easy to kill people whether your noob or ace.

I see what you mean, but I don't think it will benefit multiple ESF fights. I know I have said this before (either here or elsewhere, idr) but you don't use the RM in large air fights as you will run into other aircraft. Large air fights right now are basicly all forward flight stuff with calling team mates to get people off your 6, or getting outside edge of the fight and pulling a RM which all depends on the size of the fight and how far out people are spaced. Also, If noobs can easily kill a vet, what fun would the game be? That means everyone can easily kill everyone and there is no challenge. sounds like a snore fest.

When I easily gun down a noob, I just view it as a bit of exp. When I die to an ace, I find it a very fun and hard battle. I would rather take hard fights over exp farming.

Also on the shaking of people, Like I said before, If I am on your tail, there is no way you(not referring to you pred, more of a general 'you') will ever shake me. I am quite versed in fitting my ESF through and around things, people try it all the time, then they burst into flames.

[maradine]

Also, If noobs can easily kill a vet, what fun would the game be? That means everyone can easily kill everyone and there is no challenge. sounds like a snore fest.

This is my favorite quote, in all its forms.

Sounds like the literal definition of a challenge. What's more impressive - being on top of a leaderboard where 90% of your competition pool never has a chance against you (and you know it, snore), or being on top of a leaderboard where every single kill could have gone much worse?

Someone will still be on top of that leaderboard. Are you implying that, with this change, it will no longer be the figurative you? That, all of a sudden, your asserted superior skill will no longer provide you any kind of edge? That, the law of large numbers will elevate someone else, far less deserving, to the top? No. I assert that, if your as good as you think you are, you will still, in fact, be cleaning up. You'll just be working harder, and in a way you claim to enjoy less, and with more teamwork potentially necessary, for each kill.

So, as a rational actor, it's very understandable why you don't like this. I don't think anyone's faulting you for your opinion here. But you also need to understand that to the other guys in that pile, what you do looks like snoozing through a tower defense level - marking off worthless experience packets punctuated by the occasional interesting fight. Where's the challenge?

This isn't a Streetfighter tournament, where you fight to the top and anyone who complains about the system is labeled a scrub. This is a F2P MMO where the bottom 90% needs to be happy and spending money for the game to survive. If I was SOE, sitting on the button, knowing that what whatever I do might push the "aces" into session-based games with higher skillcaps, I'd find that very unfortunate. But I'd still push the button.

Unless, of course, there's a solution that, magically, everyone likes. For a problem that, admittedly, we're guessing at the definition of.

I dunno man, I just work here.

[snafus]

I am able to do the ESF RTM, so "learning to play" isn't why I think this change is good, but go ahead and make assumptions about why people have differing opinions to your own.

"ESF pilots revolt" is a generalization that gives the impression we're all revolting, when you need to realize that the amount of people "revolting" and the amount that will quit over this are pretty damn small.

A large enough portion of the aviation community raised concerns to make the devs back peddle and say they will not be adding these features into live. I honestly haven't seen one ACE support this change yet. As it seems only the flight sim lovers or bad pilots hate the reverse maneuver, or vertical thrust in its current form. There are many games that fill the cookie cutter flight mechanics that you seem to desire. How about you fly in those rather then trying to take away a unique system here.

[Sledgecrushr]

The slower ESFs will be totally fucked if this rule comes into effect. For those airplanes that can not run being unable to turn is a death sentence.

[snafus]

This is my favorite quote, in all its forms.

Sounds like the literal definition of a challenge. What's more impressive - being on top of a leaderboard where 90% of your competition pool never has a chance against you (and you know it, snore), or being on top of a leaderboard where every single kill could have gone much worse?

Someone will still be on top of that leaderboard. Are you implying that, with this change, it will no longer be the figurative you? That, all of a sudden, your asserted superior skill will no longer provide you any kind of edge? That, the law of large numbers will elevate someone else, far less deserving, to the top? No. I assert that, if your as good as you think you are, you will still, in fact, be cleaning up. You'll just be working harder, and in a way you claim to enjoy less, and with more teamwork potentially necessary, for each kill.

So, as a rational actor, it's very understandable why you don't like this. I don't think anyone's faulting you for your opinion here. But you also need to understand that to the other guys in that pile, what you do looks like snoozing through a tower defense level - marking off worthless experience packets punctuated by the occasional interesting fight. Where's the challenge?

This isn't a Streetfighter tournament, where you fight to the top and anyone who complains about the system is labeled a scrub. This is a F2P MMO where the bottom 90% needs to be happy and spending money for the game to survive. If I was SOE, sitting on the button, knowing that what whatever I do might push the "aces" into session-based games with higher skillcaps, I'd find that very unfortunate. But I'd still push the button.

Unless, of course, there's a solution that, magically, everyone likes. For a problem that, admittedly, we're guessing at the definition of.

I dunno man, I just work here.

The issue maradine is if we are killing people to easily then there is a lack of challenge. Yes skill will always be a factor in dog fighting, even if they removed vertical thrust 100%. But it will be a major blow to the variables that take place in current dog fights by reducing vertical thrust by 75%. Currently when I engage a good pilot I know the fight will be a mixed bag of different possible outcomes. If pilots lose the ability to do RM safely it will just turn into something more similar to BF3 then PS2. If all I wanted to do was play chase the tail of my enemy I would re download Bf3 and enjoy myself.

And from what I saw across reddit and planet side forums there are quite a few upset pilots on these changes. I personally feel they still want air to be of some kind of challenge but are searching for a way to make it more approachable. I just hope nerfing capabilities isn't there way to make the game approachable. I feel giving a solid tutorial, and brief players that flying isn't easy is the best approach. Hell telling people your game is a challenge is a selling point rather then giving in to the lowest denominator.

[SolLeks]

This is my favorite quote, in all its forms.

Sounds like the literal definition of a challenge. What's more impressive - being on top of a leaderboard where 90% of your competition pool never has a chance against you (and you know it, snore), or being on top of a leaderboard where every single kill could have gone much worse?

Someone will still be on top of that leaderboard. Are you implying that, with this change, it will no longer be the figurative you? That, all of a sudden, your asserted superior skill will no longer provide you any kind of edge? That, the law of large numbers will elevate someone else, far less deserving, to the top? No. I assert that, if your as good as you think you are, you will still, in fact, be cleaning up. You'll just be working harder, and in a way you claim to enjoy less, and with more teamwork potentially necessary, for each kill.

So, as a rational actor, it's very understandable why you don't like this. I don't think anyone's faulting you for your opinion here. But you also need to understand that to the other guys in that pile, what you do looks like snoozing through a tower defense level - marking off worthless experience packets punctuated by the occasional interesting fight. Where's the challenge?

This isn't a Streetfighter tournament, where you fight to the top and anyone who complains about the system is labeled a scrub. This is a F2P MMO where the bottom 90% needs to be happy and spending money for the game to survive. If I was SOE, sitting on the button, knowing that what whatever I do might push the "aces" into session-based games with higher skillcaps, I'd find that very unfortunate. But I'd still push the button.

Unless, of course, there's a solution that, magically, everyone likes. For a problem that, admittedly, we're guessing at the definition of.

I dunno man, I just work here.

Well, to further explain that quote (or at least try, here I go);

The proposed change (that now seems like it will not go through, but this applies to any change that will effectively make a skill cap on the game) would change flying in a way that will make player skill less relevant. It will shift from being a flying / aiming / positioning skill set to more of just a positioning / numbers skill set as with forward flight, it is impossible to get a good pilot off your tail (don't say dodge around things, I fly though covered bridges for fun, and as such *your* screwed if I am on your tail first) and having wingmen will be the only way to get anyone off your tail (I consider it a skill to fly and keep up with wingmen in combat and not lose them or run into them).

That said, There will be no 'top of the leaderboard' in this scenario as fighting just boils down to who spots who first, and then so long as the pilot who spotted the enemy first gets on their tail and does not screw up in flight(also assuming no outside interference), he will down that enemy pilot. Now adding interference, A2AM will be even more prevalent as AB tanks will be more or less useless for anti air combat, and more ESF will be fitted with rocket pods to just pod infantry and tanks (they are not losing the ability to 'chopper around' with space bar, just using the AB to do the same).

That will boil combat down to such a simple and basic thing that comes out to
1. who flys highest and sees the other first wins
2. who brings the most friends wins.

Very little player skill will be left and thus, I would have no interest in the flight game as it will be way to binary.

[maradine]

That will boil combat down to such a simple and basic thing that comes out to
1. who flys highest and sees the other first wins
2. who brings the most friends wins.

Very little player skill will be left and thus, I would have no interest in the flight game as it will be way to binary.

Without discounting the possibility that you could be right, I strongly suspect this is an over simplification of what will happen, and it would be somewhat of a binary cop-out if you didn't stick around to see exactly what player skill can do in the new model. If there's a new model.

[PredatorFour]

That will boil combat down to such a simple and basic thing that comes out to
1. who flys highest and sees the other first wins




Not the case imo. Flying high is going to get your ass shot down alot quicker than hugging the ground. Also, factor in 'if both pilots see each other at same time' which will happen alot. You still gotta use skill to hit them head on and kill them if they are doing the same. Being evasive and lethal at the same time takes skill.

The who brings most friends argument is sadly what this game is about. I got shot down in a thread (pardon the pun) when talking about soloing mbts and someone ranted that i shouldn't be alone in the middle of nowhere fighting and getting killed quick. (think it was talking about tank armor)


Think of it though, once these changes are in we still might be able to find a 'high skill maneuver' even with the nerf. Like the powerslide or something similiar.

[SolLeks]

I may hve over simplafied it a bit, but you will not have much in the way of manuvers or being able to run away from someone.

Currently, you can not run from a good pilot, they will kill you no matter what, ace or not.
there are not enough flight physx in this game to do much more assuming the RM was taken away. There is no going faster in a dive or slower in a climb (hint, you go about the same speed doing both) there is no stalling so you can dance on the edge of your flight envelope, unless you count hitting the flight ceiling a stall as it freezes your controls for a second. you will not be able to dodge in between things to get away because any good pilot will be able to follow right on your tail. Using things like conventional flight maneuvers does not work as the counter to that is just slowing down (and in doing these maneuvers, you slow down yourself).

Basically, it will be just -Get ESF on tail- *die*

that and hover turreting.

Oh my, just like in beta, like what most pilots, including myself, did before the RM was figured out! Oh wow, who would have thought that we may have experienced the game without such an *op* maneuver and could put input based on it.

[snafus]

Not the case imo. Flying high is going to get your ass shot down alot quicker than hugging the ground. Also, factor in 'if both pilots see each other at same time' which will happen alot. You still gotta use skill to hit them head on and kill them if they are doing the same. Being evasive and lethal at the same time takes skill.

The who brings most friends argument is sadly what this game is about. I got shot down in a thread (pardon the pun) when talking about soloing mbts and someone ranted that i shouldn't be alone in the middle of nowhere fighting and getting killed quick. (think it was talking about tank armor)


Think of it though, once these changes are in we still might be able to find a 'high skill maneuver' even with the nerf. Like the powerslide or something similiar.

Though this can be argued but flying low is usually the worst position to put your self into predator. As someone who loves finding people who do that I will one clip you before you can even run if I catch you at low alt. And the other obvious reason is the ridiculous amount of AA or other weapons that can one shot us. And yes the ability to actually hit your target will always be crucial as a skill based action. But positiong is far more crucial as that gives even the worst shooters the best chance for victory as you can evade the enemy while keeping them within cross airs.

But I love to disprove the who brought more friends time and again when I fly "scary squad". We average about 6 to 10 pilots and completely decimate platoons of enemy air if we find that many. I can't tell you how many air zergs have been laid to rest due to the skill ceiling allowed to us. But if we were forced to stick to basic forward flight model while engaging enemy air zergs player skill will mean much less. Yes we would still rack up quite a few kills but our losses would be increased and the overall fights would be much to bland for my liking.

And I have tested the PST changes quite a bit over these past few days and there won't be any new move coming from that. All that will be different is pilots will be a much easier target to hit when utilizing vertical thrust.

[PredatorFour]

Though this can be argued but flying low is usually the worst position to put your self into predator.

I see your point, though fortunately in this game you can be quite aware of enemies high and low just from looking around the cockpit whilst flying.

[pixelshader]

If you're familiar with both 'real' flight sims and ps2 you know exactly what will happen to the air game. If the hover ab thrust is crippled (like on pts now) the game will stay exactly the same, just with crippled hover ab thrust. The best strategy will still be to fight each other in hover mode, just now with a heavy heavy emphasis on aiming rather than dodging, since dodging will be ineffective. Fights will be short, brutal, and probably stupid compared to what we have now.

If you remove hover mode entirely, which is what you would need to force people to fly forwards in a duel, then the game would be simplified to the point of hilarity. You can't get anyone off your tail when they can turn just as well at 20kph as at 200kph and accelerate or decelerate to whatever speed they want almost instantly. You can't turn in any possible way that will get their sights off you, you can't force an overshoot, you can't do anything except hope they are horrifically incompetent and lose you behind terrain or let you make it to your warpgate.

Talking about hover mode disappearing is pointless though as it would only happen as part of a complete esf flight model overhaul, which itself is never going to happen. We're left with the fact that nerfing the hover ab (or 'the reverse') is pretty much just some dumb thing someone at soe decided it might somehow be worth putting on the test server. Maybe to gauge how important it really is by how big of an outcry it causes. Maybe to threaten a massive nerf so they can get away with a smaller one being seen as an excellent change.

[KesTro]

But I love to disprove the who brought more friends time and again when I fly "scary squad". We average about 6 to 10 pilots and completely decimate platoons of enemy air if we find that many.

All I've ever seen you do with scary squad is camp my WG haha, I'll take your word for it and trust those youtube videos of them has actually happened. :P

Either way I'm still of the mind that a change for the air can only be beneficial. The difference between a good pilot and a bad pilot is night and day as to where the difference between a good tanker and a bad tanker is that shell explodes next to you and not on you.

If the gap between them was brought more in line I think everybody would have more fun. It's not as if you're going to lose your edge over people either. In any kind of MMO change is inevitable and communities will adapt. I don't see this being any different.

Note: That tanker reference was more geared towards HE prowlers in 'da day'.

[OmegaPREDATOR]

Not the case imo. Flying high is going to get your ass shot down alot quicker than hugging the ground. Also, factor in 'if both pilots see each other at same time' which will happen alot. You still gotta use skill to hit them head on and kill them if they are doing the same. Being evasive and lethal at the same time takes skill.

You don't play near TR base, don't you ? Cause flying low is the faster way to be destroy in 2s by skygards, strykers and vulcans. Fly low near a zerg and "boum". The only viable option in A2A is to stay at least upper than 400m.

Also Scythes have the best maneuvrability, so it will be easiest to them tho try avoid or fronting opponent fast (and ram them taking few damage). TR will (already) have the advantage that no one can go faster, so except with lots of maneuvrability you can't escape. We can speak about reaver now ... bigger hit box and ... nothing. The V-thrust "advantage" they have is not an advantage actually and will not help after. The "supa afterburner speed" is a jock as you can only save 50m against a mossi with speed 3 and additional tanks and he will return in 3s. Without the reverse maneuver what will do Reavers ? (especially now that each weapon can 1 clip the others ESF).

If newbies want to learn pilotage they have VR and PTS (which is near empty every days) and they have a lot of videos who explain every single tips of the game. If they want learn it "without problems or ennemies" they have two possiblities, wich is two more than we add when we learn to fly. Does they need also a "right clich - instagib front ennemy" and "left click - instagib all ennemies" ? They will be happy with the orbital stryke in January.

It's exatly the same when you are in infantery or in tanks, if you go ahead alone with an uncerted class or vehicule without try practicing you will died facing better/more experimented gamers. You can't have a game where guys who play hundred of hours can be easily kill by newbie with only 5min of game (I still think restrincting vehicule utilisation depending of level wad a better idea than what we have).

Just add higher celar for all map (1500 or 2000m) to have A2A gameplay and nerf the lol-pod which is the only reason they made this damn hover nerf.

[Emperor Newt]

It's exatly the same when you are in infantery or in tanks, if you go ahead alone with an uncerted class or vehicule without try practicing you will died facing better/more experimented gamers. You can't have a game where guys who play hundred of hours can be easily kill by newbie with only 5min of game (I still think restrincting vehicule utilisation depending of level wad a better idea than what we have).
And there you are wrong. A newbie can take a tank and have fun and a few kills with it without certing a lot on it or practicing twenty hours just how to drive. By that the newbie will continue playing and improve over time until he eventually is on par with experienced tank drivers.

Flying ESFs in PS2 is a completely different thing. If you are a newbie and try to fly, especially in an uncerted ESF, you will get destroyed again and again. Many times without even knowing what hit you. And that's why you rarely see BR<40 in ESFs. Newbies simply stop flying because they have a shit experience with it, now that the sky is full with BR100s who rarely do anything else.

And that, in my book, is not "exactly the same".

It is not about having newbies and veterans on the same level. It is about having a fun experience for everybody. And that includes the veterans to be shot down by a lucky newbie once in a while. And not being impenetrable objects that can only be dared to be tackled by players of the exact same skill level.

I also get occasionaly killed by BR<5s on foot or in vehicles. Should I in return open threads to demand a higher skill cap on infantry movement, weapon and vehicle handling? No, because there is enough room to improve and high skilled players will always be better. But they will be killed once in a while by less skilled players. And for everybody on the ground, even vehicle drivers and gunners, this is perfectly fine and acceptable. It's just ESF pilots who complain about anybody daring to suggest something alike.

[PredatorFour]

You don't play near TR base, don't you ? Cause flying low is the faster way to be destroy in 2s by skygards, strykers and vulcans. Fly low near a zerg and "boum". The only viable option in A2A is to stay at least upper than 400m.



You go anywhere near a zerg and "boom".

[pixelshader]

If you are a newbie and try to fly, especially in an uncerted ESF, you will get destroyed again and again.

This still happens with the changes on pts. Air is intrinsically unforgiving.

Can you think of a multiplayer combined arms game where a new player can do anything in the air without hours of practice on an empty server?

[SolLeks]

And there you are wrong. A newbie can take a tank and have fun and a few kills with it without certing a lot on it or practicing twenty hours just how to drive. By that the newbie will continue playing and improve over time until he eventually is on par with experienced tank drivers.

Flying ESFs in PS2 is a completely different thing. If you are a newbie and try to fly, especially in an uncerted ESF, you will get destroyed again and again. Many times without even knowing what hit you. And that's why you rarely see BR<40 in ESFs. Newbies simply stop flying because they have a shit experience with it, now that the sky is full with BR100s who rarely do anything else.

And that, in my book, is not "exactly the same".

It is not about having newbies and veterans on the same level. It is about having a fun experience for everybody. And that includes the veterans to be shot down by a lucky newbie once in a while. And not being impenetrable objects that can only be dared to be tackled by players of the exact same skill level.

I also get occasionaly killed by BR<5s on foot or in vehicles. Should I in return open threads to demand a higher skill cap on infantry movement, weapon and vehicle handling? No, because there is enough room to improve and high skilled players will always be better. But they will be killed once in a while by less skilled players. And for everybody on the ground, even vehicle drivers and gunners, this is perfectly fine and acceptable. It's just ESF pilots who complain about anybody daring to suggest something alike.

Noobies in most games with air can not survive long, the nature of air fighting and having more than 2 accesses is the cause.

[OmegaPREDATOR]

You go anywhere near a zerg and "boom".

Not always, you can fly safely at high altitude just doing A2A (except on Indar where half the map is at 400m from the celar).

...

I don't agree here. I see tones of newbies taking an uncerted tank and it's really easy to destroy them. That's why they play in a zerg and don't go alone fronting other MBT who hunt in solo. And certed tanks stay at range from zerg because ten or more ennemies shoots will kill it fast even full certed.

Why it would be deferent for ESF ? But no newbies fly alone ! Newbies always go alone and fly close to the front or behind it where high BR hunt. If there where 10 or 20 ESF flying together at the same place even a BR100 flying solo will ask himself if it's a good idea to fight them. He will certainly go because it could be funny but he will take several shoots and maybe enough to be destroyed.

The hover nerf will not help newbies. With or without V-thrust they will always be destroy in a few secondes, because trained pilots will pass behind newbies or escape and return easily. A newbie can start to have fun in ESF when he start making reverse maneuver to escape other pilots (so youtube+VR+practicing and it will arrive fast). Without reverse maneuver (which will became harder to do - except for trained pilots)... he will be destroy even more and you will only see >BR80 flying after that.

Hover is use only to lol-pod infantery (so nerf lol-pod not hover) and to do reverse maneuver to avoid others ESF. The nerf will just change dogfight in a "I see you & now you're dead" fight (I can even say it will stay a "fignt") which is not funny.

[KesTro]

Hover is use only to lol-pod infantery (so nerf lol-pod not hover) and to do reverse maneuver to avoid others ESF. The nerf will just change dogfight in a "I see you & now you're dead" fight (I can even say it will stay a "fignt") which is not funny.

Round after round of nerfing lolpods is what got us to where we are today. "Surely there's nothing wrong with the vehicle and merely the weapons need to be tuned!"

ESF's in their current state are fun to people who have mastered ESF's.

But to quote what someone said earlier and use it against them this is after all a combined arms game. The problem is that ESF's dominate their portion far too much.

Perhaps a simpler explanation would be how I've always looked at vehicle efficiency in Planetside.

Player Skill + Vehicle Survivability + Vehicle Power = Vehicle Efficiency.

The problem isn't one particular part of the ESF it's that with all those things combined the ESF is a far more efficient vehicle than any other in the game.

At least that is the general consensus you will find on the forums and in game.

I love a lot of the top-pilots but I can't help but feel that people with 20+ days of time in their ESF are biased. So returning to the combined arms game i think the nerf is centered around creating a better experience for everybody. Besides we have two very overpowered weapons coming into the game to help ease the pain, cheer up guys.

I'm sure I'll still sing songs of pilots of old and new around the burning carcass of your ESF. :P

*Edit* To add to the formula I suppose Vehicle Cost would fit somewhere in there but cost is pretty much a non-factor even now. Perhaps other players have had different experiences though.