Nerfing the Reverse Manuver

[Hamma]

Those of you who are unaware they have implemented a nerf to the reverse maneuver on Public Test. What is the reverse maneuver you ask? Check the video below:
Planetside 2 - Air Reverse Maneuver Guide/Tutorial (Planetside 2 Guide/Tutorial) - YouTube

This is a maneuver that makes aircraft pretty hard to hit and allows them ways to really get out of tough situations. This particular maneuver is not really that easy to do, and requires an aspect of player skill in order to master.

Do you think SOE should be nerfing aspects of the game that require skill and patience to master especially in a game destined for eSports? Is it a mistake to make some aspects of the game easily accessible to the masses?

By the way here is the patch notes from test: http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/Test_Server_Update_(2013/08/01)

New ESF Weapons and Reverse Thrust Tweaks
We’re also trying out a change to the lift factor granted by afterburners when in hover mode. We’ve reduced it from a factor of 8 to a factor of 2. This should make the reverse thrust still doable but will lower its abruptness and diminish your top speed while doing so.

[NoXousX]

This subject has been beat to death, and there are two sets of opinions:

Opinion #1 (experienced pilots and players that generally value skill and dedication):

Leave it alone.
It won't help new players.
The manevuers add depth to gameplay.
Nerfing it won't help bads become good suddenly.


Opinion #2

It's hard.
I can't do it.
I don't fly.




Sorry for the sarcastic answer but seriously... this change won't help new players. It simply won't. It will dumb down dogfighting and upset experienced players.



Copy/paste from the forums:
Even if they go through with these changes, they won't help new players. An ESF pilot takes probably a good 40+ hours of play to even be a threat. It takes hundreds of hours to "master," and by master I mean think you've mastered it. The reality is good pilots are always improving, and that will forever stack against new players.

I have 24,000 kills in an ESF, and almost 346 hours. How long will it take for a new player to be a threat against me withor without these changes? It will take them months.

I would break down ESF success as follows:
1) Situational Awareness/Air Sense: 50% (the hardest thing to learn)
2) Aim 25%
3) Aircraft control 25%

If you take a new player and give them excellent aim and excellent aircraft control, they will still get farmed and killed. The hardest thing to learn is #1. Knowing when to retreat, when afterburner, fly low, fly high, be aggresssive etc etc... now THAT takes a lot of time to master and no amount of changes will affect that. New ESF pilots CAN be successful. I've seen players go from straight up noob status to quite the threat, and I've progressively watched them improve. The one thing they all have in common is they fly A LOT. A few of them I've even let fly off and live because I respect what they are up against. But what have they done different than the average "flying is too hard" whiner? They dedicated the time, certs, and effort to be great. The learning curve is steep, but so is the payoff. Soleks for example was scrounging around for tips a long time ago, and he has drastically improved. I always watched him fly and now he's a prominent reaver threat who is fun to run and gun with.

A bit off topcic there, but lets say hypothetically this change does goes through... new ESF pilots are still going to get absolutely obliterated. Stack that with the fact that lock-on weapons are rampant, flares aren't baseline, good ESFs takes 5k certs minimum, and good players will always be around to mop them up. All the odds are against them. This change won't help them. It will only negatively impact the versatility, the freedom, and the depth of combat ESF pilots enjoy, and the skill-gap. Many of us have spent months mastering the hover mode, and the maneuvers it brings are used in far more than just air to air combat.

I really don't want to start my sentences with "remember the good days when ESFs..." I can't stress enough how BAD and borderline insulting these changes will be to every decent pilot in this game that sunk too much time dealing with this nonstop bipolar balancing. It's too late in the game to make a change like this, and there is nothing to make up for it.

[KesTro]

This subject has been beat to death, and there are two sets of opinions:

Yeah, completely ignore any reasons stated for the latter.

[Hamma]

It's been beaten to death for sure - just trying to consolidate the beating. :P

[Fenrys]

I think its a good change, it will improve faction v faction balance, it will provide incentive to use diverse loadouts, and I hope they go through with it. At the moment there is little reason to fly anything but a Reaver with Vortek, Hover Stability, and AB Tank.

[DirtyBird]

Unwelcome changes come and go, the game moves on.
Pilots should just enjoy the farm while the placebo effect lasts.

[Javelin]

My 2 cents from the O-PS2 forums (https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/removing-the-reverse-manoeuver-is-like-taking-the-ski-out-of-tribes.145442/page-2#post-2045211)


Every time a "l33t" ESF pilot has shed a tear over a change to their playstyle, it has been good for the game.


Rocket pod nerf.
Flak/Skyguard changes.
Thermal/NV vehicle sight changes.
MBT armor improvements.
Deconstruction changes.
XP from "bailers".


The takeaway here is, you will adapt as you always have and the game will be better for everyone else.

Stand by for incoming rage.

[Purestorm]

The biggest problem is that in order to have a decent chance of winning a 1v1 fight against a good pilot, you have to know this one maneuver. The ESF metagame should not be entirely built around having Hover frame and being able to perform a certain maneuver.

[camycamera]

hm, i have never used that manuever before, but now it looks like i wont be able to use it effectively if i were to learn of it later :/

[Varsam]

I can see the value of both sides of this argument. I think new flyers need some help to make them more competitive (and make the air game less alienating for them), but I also don't think shackling the older players is the way to go.

[PredatorFour]

The biggest problem is that in order to have a decent chance of winning a 1v1 fight against a good pilot, you have to know this one maneuver. The ESF metagame should not be entirely built around having Hover frame and being able to perform a certain maneuver.

Altho the move is visually impressive, it can be countered easy by just taking the fight to them. They fly backwards? You chase them. They shoot ? You spin/dodge. You don't have to know the move to be good against 'leet' pilots who think moving backwards makes them awesome.

I think the move is for the better. This is a nerf to hover frame really and i think what they need to do is buff racer frame (increase top speed) and then we might have some decent choices to make with air frame loadouts and some variety.

You can still do the reverse move anyway just not as good and i'm sure decent pilots will still be able to use this to their advantage.

[NoXousX]

I can see the value of both sides of this argument. I think new flyers need some help to make them more competitive (and make the air game less alienating for them), but I also don't think shackling the older players is the way to go.

I guess my biggest point is, how MUCH will gutting the dozens of maneuvers hover mode allows players to perform actually help a new player? Because I don't think it will. Going hover and holding spacebar while pitching down during an afterburner doesn't make you good. I see the maneuver used inappropriately all the time. It's a tool, and it is generally used more properly by experienced players. Without it, lackluster players won't become better. They still don't have situational awareness. They still don't have experience, and they still can't aim or control their aircraft worth a damn. Flying isn't casual-friendly in ANY game. Look at battlefield. Look at Planetside 1. It took years for the average players be worth a damn in the air.. years. Hell the powerslide maneuver which I guess you could equate to the "reverse maneuver" didn't become prevalent until like 2006.

What other aspect of the game makes you as vulnerable as an aircraft? What other aspect of the game do you have to worry about constantly extending beyond safe territory, conservings your cool downs strictly, knowing whether to flare now, or wait 3-4 seconds in hopes of not taking any more damage, knowing when to drive on or when to run, know if it's even worth running? You have to track AA sources, lock-on ranges, line of sight, other aircraft, altitude. Hell at high levels even the profile of your aircraft relative to the enemy. If vanguards are around I turn away from them in such a way to limit my profile as to not get gibbed. I didn't start doing that until probably hour 150. There is an information overload when flying that requires quick and almost instinctual processing that simply takes a long ass time to get down.

Flying in comparison to everything else is fast-paced and totally unforgiving. The high risk/high reward playstyle. Nerfing a maneuver doesn't change that.

In the end they can buff AA all they want, they can nerf maneuvers, they can make any change they want. But ace pilots will ALWAYS farm the sky. That's what they do. That's their specialty. They capitalize on every single little detail and they are good because of it.

[Redshift]

It's just going to make dog fighting a case of who get's behind who first.

Mind you i think they're going to remove any semblance of skill from dog fighting next patch anyway, with the two of the new ESF weapons... the locust guns actually say "the high rate of fire and spread means aiming is irrelevent"

[Goliith]

the locust guns actually say "the high rate of fire and spread means aiming is irrelevent"



While that may be true, it does not mean that it is in anyway SUPERIOR. In fact, it just means that its easier to get *hits* which doesn't mean you will win, or even have an advantage. It's easier to *Hit* someone with a shotgun, but you still have to land a lot of pellets to *Kill* them.

I'm not saying they aren't a no-skill weapon, because that's exactly what they are. But if you can fly and aim, your rotary will rip them to ribbons before their spray'n'pray can drop you 20% even if they CAN aim. Unless they somehow ambush you at such a close range that their RoF wins out with a high accuracy at close range. (AKA a shotgun kill-11 shots hitting at once with crap long range performance)


On Topic: The proposed nerf doesn't personally effect me, as I haven't gotten a ton of air time in my mossie yet, and I mostly just fly to provide my buddy a wing man, as he is a far superior pilot to myself, as such I don't yet know how to perform the maneuver, I'm fairly decent at dog fighting without it, although I don't particularly enjoy stand still hover dog fights, it's just not fun, entertaining, or enjoyable to flip about in circles playing bullet roulette with my opponent. I enjoy myself many times more playing in a more traditional role pilot where you zoom in on someone and attempt to take them out in a single pass, and keep on flying if you fail, or loop about for a second attack, not come up behind him. Perhaps my bias is just due to a lack of experience as a pilot in PS2. All things aside, I don't believe the maneuver should be REMOVED but I feel it should be an option to you, such that should you encounter a pilot who is geared towards hover flight/backwards maneuvers, you should be able to fight on your terms or escape with the greater speed you offer from a more traditional loadout.

TLDR: It doesn't effect me personally as I don't use it, but the option should remain and I WANT MY AB TANK CERTS!

[snafus]

This subject has been beat to death, and there are two sets of opinions:

Opinion #1 (experienced pilots and players that generally value skill and dedication):

Leave it alone.
It won't help new players.
The manevuers add depth to gameplay.
Nerfing it won't help bads become good suddenly.


Opinion #2

It's hard.
I can't do it.
I don't fly.




Sorry for the sarcastic answer but seriously... this change won't help new players. It simply won't. It will dumb down dogfighting and upset experienced players.



Copy/paste from the forums:
Even if they go through with these changes, they won't help new players. An ESF pilot takes probably a good 40+ hours of play to even be a threat. It takes hundreds of hours to "master," and by master I mean think you've mastered it. The reality is good pilots are always improving, and that will forever stack against new players.

I have 24,000 kills in an ESF, and almost 346 hours. How long will it take for a new player to be a threat against me withor without these changes? It will take them months.

I would break down ESF success as follows:
1) Situational Awareness/Air Sense: 50% (the hardest thing to learn)
2) Aim 25%
3) Aircraft control 25%

If you take a new player and give them excellent aim and excellent aircraft control, they will still get farmed and killed. The hardest thing to learn is #1. Knowing when to retreat, when afterburner, fly low, fly high, be aggresssive etc etc... now THAT takes a lot of time to master and no amount of changes will affect that. New ESF pilots CAN be successful. I've seen players go from straight up noob status to quite the threat, and I've progressively watched them improve. The one thing they all have in common is they fly A LOT. A few of them I've even let fly off and live because I respect what they are up against. But what have they done different than the average "flying is too hard" whiner? They dedicated the time, certs, and effort to be great. The learning curve is steep, but so is the payoff. Soleks for example was scrounging around for tips a long time ago, and he has drastically improved. I always watched him fly and now he's a prominent reaver threat who is fun to run and gun with.

A bit off topcic there, but lets say hypothetically this change does goes through... new ESF pilots are still going to get absolutely obliterated. Stack that with the fact that lock-on weapons are rampant, flares aren't baseline, good ESFs takes 5k certs minimum, and good players will always be around to mop them up. All the odds are against them. This change won't help them. It will only negatively impact the versatility, the freedom, and the depth of combat ESF pilots enjoy, and the skill-gap. Many of us have spent months mastering the hover mode, and the maneuvers it brings are used in far more than just air to air combat.

I really don't want to start my sentences with "remember the good days when ESFs..." I can't stress enough how BAD and borderline insulting these changes will be to every decent pilot in this game that sunk too much time dealing with this nonstop bipolar balancing. It's too late in the game to make a change like this, and there is nothing to make up for it.

Couldn't agree more Nouxous, I just hope they go through with consulting top tier pilots before implementing the changes in the future.

[Lonehunter]

I think it's very sad they put nerfs in like this. You can't give us tools and limitations to work with to find our own strategies, never once say something is wrong or even poll the people, then make changes to remove it in the name of "balance"

[GamerDJ]

As a pilot, I think nerfing this mechanic will greatly impact more experienced pilots, and not for the better. New players will still have to do the exact same thing to do the maneuver, they will have to learn the exact same things to become a good pilot, and when they DO get to this part of their piloting experience, they will only have a harder time learning the maneuver.

Nobody complained about this mechanic (besides just some inexperienced pilots in stock ESFs that get shot down because they flew somewhere they shouldn't have), and it doesn't make any one faction or ESF unbalanced because ALL ESFs can do this exact same maneuver the exact same way and get nearly the exact same outcome. You may be noticing a pattern here: it's that everything is the same with this maneuver and 'balance.'

Even if this change does go through, everything that is the same now will remain the same. It will just be stupidly hard to do the exact same thing, and there is no reason to make things like this harder.

TL/DR: Nerfing this will make things much worse, and the only thing changing will be the difficulty. There is no unbalance, no real complaints, and no good reason to go through with this nerf. Experienced pilots will be the only ones effected, because newer players don't do this type of thing until much later in the game.

[CzuukWaterson]

Didn't Higby say that it would still work with the AB pods on? Is that not the case? I like it in that case as it creates more specialization. But not a fan of removing it entirely. It is what makes flying in this game special. And I am not particularly good at doing it. In the end I don't think it will have the desired effect.

[NoXousX]

Didn't Higby say that it would still work with the AB pods on? Is that not the case? I like it in that case as it creates more specialization. But not a fan of removing it entirely. It is what makes flying in this game special. And I am not particularly good at doing it. In the end I don't think it will have the desired effect.

Specialization should not be rock/paper/scissors. It should provide a small advantage, not gut the capabilities of other setups.

[snafus]

They have to be careful with not relying on fuel tanks to have proper vertical thrust. All aspects of flying the ESF rely on vertical thrust one way or another. A2G especially will be hurt badly by the speed reduction we will receive while in hover. If you force pilots to rely on fuel tanks you will alienate a lot of the A2G pilots out there.

[OmegaPREDATOR]

Well I will not copy my old post but to be quick I'm against that nerf.

Somewhere in the Internet you can find a tweet or reddit article of Higby comparing it to the rocket jump of Quake, not wanted but giving depth to the game.

For PS2, imo, the only wait to survive in A2A is mastering the RM. When a newbie start to master it he will survive longuer and start enjoy piloting.

If you can't do the RM you will always be destroy by the opponent behind you. So nerfing it will just supress dogfights and transdorm the A2A in a hit&run rush where the faster may escape (with the buff of noze canons it even harder to run away and Mosies are advantaged).

As I test it on the PTS, the RM is still posible but harder and give you less speed when mastered. So newbies will not be helped cause they will never learn it as it's really hard now to learn. Veterans who already mastered it will have even more advantaged against them.

So yes RM is hard to learn like everything when piloting (how many guyes crash when trying to avoid few shoots...) but nerfing it will not change that and will just remove some depth of piloting.

ps: if the nerf whas asked for answer to the A2G overpowered of ESF, it's not hover who need nerf.

[KesTro]

They have to be careful with not relying on fuel tanks to have proper vertical thrust. All aspects of flying the ESF rely on vertical thrust one way or another. A2G especially will be hurt badly by the speed reduction we will receive while in hover. If you force pilots to rely on fuel tanks you will alienate a lot of the A2G pilots out there.

I would imagine you would see two very distinct types of ESF emerge instead of the "I am everything' that they are today. ESF's cert whoring the ground and ESF's who want to dogfight as they claim so they run AB pods.

[Assist]

Anything that nerfs air is a good thing. It outperforms ground gameplay by too large of a margin.

[PredatorFour]

I would imagine you would see two very distinct types of ESF emerge instead of the "I am everything' that they are today. ESF's cert whoring the ground and ESF's who want to dogfight as they claim so they run AB pods.



I think this will be great. Another factor will be whether they choose ab pods over the new wing weapons too. The esf game needs more variety in combat options imo and it looks like it's on the way. I believe that the good pilots will still rise to the top regardless of these new changes.

[Roderick]

If the Devs are changing this now, then it tells me that this was never the vision for air combat and they are just addressing it now. Why was this not corrected before? Irrelevant and moot at this point.

Experienced players will adapt to the changes. Those that have committed to this maneuver all this time will adapt to whatever adjusted style of air combat they choose and continue to be successful at it.

[CzuukWaterson]

Specialization should not be rock/paper/scissors. It should provide a small advantage, not gut the capabilities of other setups.

Why should it not be rock/paper/scissors? I'm not following your logic. I think it should be exactly rock/paper/scissors. You should either be pure air superiority with AB, general purpose air support with lock on or ground with rocket pods.

The new empire specific secondaries also seem to provide a general purpose weapon for increased fire power. I see roles here, not nerfs. I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

If the Devs are changing this now, then it tells me that this was never the vision for air combat and they are just addressing it now. Why was this not corrected before? Irrelevant and moot at this point.

Experienced players will adapt to the changes. Those that have committed to this maneuver all this time will adapt to whatever adjusted style of air combat they choose and continue to be successful at it.

Agreed. I suppose I especially like this change because it gives the Reaver an advantage that it was supposed to have all along, superior vertical thrust. The NC really needs something in the air other than good Dalton gunners.

[Valkar]

I'm very confused by all of you pilots angry at this change. I fly a lot and I can pull off the RPT in my Scythe and I use it to win me a lot of dogfighting duels but I'm happy to see the end of it because its just not dogfighting not by a long shot.

This move dilutes the air game down to a hover and shoot brawl. There is no tactical flying or no need for wingmen or even squadrons the RPT removes all of that because ESF simply meet eachother RPT hover and shoot at eachother and its boring as hell.

This change will make it easier for new players to get in the air which is also important for the long term health of the game. Claiming this change will make it even more difficult for new pilots is scare mongering at best.

For me the change has already got people in my outfit interested in flying again. People who have trouble mastering the game and admit are mediocre pilots who currently avoid flying because they know they stand little chance in the air with all the G2A lock ons, A2A lock ons, flak and ESF using RPT. Flying simply isnt enjoyable or rewarding.

Sorry but fighter jocks and aces need to lose the attitude. Yes you're great at flying and nobody is questioning your skill but this change (or nerf as you want to refer to it as) is there to open up the air game to new or old pilots who are currently shut out of that aspect of the game completely.

It offends me to see so many pilots whining about it and threatening to leave over it. Sorry but the air shouldn't be ours exclusively, there should be room for novice pilots or people who simply don't have the skill to master a single move. Let them have a chance of killing a top gun because right now all of those people roll with SGs, Bursters or G2A lock ons. This change will get more of them in cockpits giving you more xp and less AA to worry about so try focussing on the positives instead of being a bunch of spoilt entitled brats please.

[Rbstr]

I'm not shedding any tears over it.

IDGAF about this new/old/skilled argument. I think that it's a silly unintended consequence of how the VTOL transition works.
And it makes the air game less about tactics and more about whoosing around in a game of attrition.

[iRobot]

This move dilutes the air game down to a hover and shoot brawl. There is no tactical flying or no need for wingmen or even squadrons the RPT removes all of that because ESF simply meet eachother RPT hover and shoot at eachother and its boring as hell.

This change will make it easier for new players to get in the air which is also important for the long term health of the game. Claiming this change will make it even more difficult for new pilots is scare mongering at best.

It offends me to see so many pilots whining about it and threatening to leave over it. Sorry but the air shouldn't be ours exclusively, there should be room for novice pilots or people who simply don't have the skill to master a single move.

I could not agree more! RM is the reason why I avoid dogfights even though I can do it. It is just stupid to hover around each other in slow speeds. Real dogfighting is about speed and agility and trying to outmaneuver the opponent. I'm looking forward to Hossin where RM in the trees should be harder.

Removing RM would make A2G also more linear and promote more tactical ESF squad play imo.

[wildcat140679]

I welcome the change to RPT with open arms, I don't pilot ESF much mostly because ESF aerial combat (both ground and air) feel weird and part of it has to do with the maneuvers that can be done because of RPT. Call me old school, but without RPT, I truly believe flight dynamics would be better and have a more logical feel to it, lowering the learning curve for beginners.

[maradine]

This post incorporates all my previous posts on the topic as if each individual post were specifically and individually indicated to be incorporated by reference herein as though fully set forth.

[Assist]

This post incorporates all my previous posts on the topic as if each individual post were specifically and individually indicated to be incorporated by reference herein as though fully set forth.

:huh: :doh: :bananasex:

[snafus]

I think this will be great. Another factor will be whether they choose ab pods over the new wing weapons too. The esf game needs more variety in combat options imo and it looks like it's on the way. I believe that the good pilots will still rise to the top regardless of these new changes.

Variety is great predator. But to to create variety by striping vertical thrust from all other setups minus AB pods seems silly to me. Why can't they just make the pods better then the current standard? Instead of taking away from the one aspect that makes flying different and interesting in PS2. How about they simply add to it.

[Larington]

I want to re-iterate my support for a reduction in the effectiveness/ease of ESF's flying backwards. I think someone summed it up when they responded to a video showing someone trying to do fancy flying whilst in a zero ammunition situation by pointing out every damn opportunity for going into the reverse maneuver. It's become the go-to choice for dealing with pursuing ESF's and that's just stolen all interest in flying from me.

[PredatorFour]

Variety is great predator. But to to create variety by striping vertical thrust from all other setups minus AB pods seems silly to me. Why can't they just make the pods better then the current standard? Instead of taking away from the one aspect that makes flying different and interesting in PS2. How about they simply add to it.

Like adding more custom options to the AB tanks that you could cert into??? e.g. standard / RM / Speed ( as is now / vertical thrust / faster but runs out quicker) Is that kind of what you meant? Would be cool if we could customize our AB tanks.

[Wahooo]

Variety is great predator. But to to create variety by striping vertical thrust from all other setups minus AB pods seems silly to me. Why can't they just make the pods better then the current standard? Instead of taking away from the one aspect that makes flying different and interesting in PS2. How about they simply add to it.

This.

I think it may be true they are trying to balance or create better variety in ESF loadouts but they are not going about it correctly.

The other possibility is that they were hoping from the start for a more traditional fixed wing aircraft sort of flight model, but their physics are just too far off for this.

The nerf needs to be better thought out and if there are changes to ESF flying there needs to be sweeping changes to all the air frames and buffs to certain aspects of the choices.

[snafus]

Like adding more custom options to the AB tanks that you could cert into??? e.g. standard / RM / Speed ( as is now / vertical thrust / faster but runs out quicker) Is that kind of what you meant? Would be cool if we could customize our AB tanks.

Among other things but generally yes. Don't castrate the only thing that makes PS2 unique to the flying community. Simply add more to it, and give us the ability to further increase capabilities in the aircraft.

[Kitaz]

I hope they go and implement the changes to ESF's, i fly a lot in a scythe and hate seeing ace pilots use this maneuver on novice pilots, they don't stand a chance and get pretty much zero practice flying.
This change will really open the skies up for some fun dog fighting instead of cheap shots

[BlaxicanX]

Everytime a change is made to a game mechanic, everyone who benefits from that mechanic act like the sky is falling and this is the end of the game. The change happens, the sky doesn't fall, the game doesn't end, and all those people who complained keep playing the game and life moves on.

This is no different.

[Hobnail]

-posted in wrong thread-

[snafus]

Everytime a change is made to a game mechanic, everyone who benefits from that mechanic act like the sky is falling and this is the end of the game. The change happens, the sky doesn't fall, the game doesn't end, and all those people who complained keep playing the game and life moves on.

This is no different.

When that game mechanic is the sole reason that many play the game. It does tend to mean a lot to them and will end with many quitting over it.

[BlaxicanX]

Then they can leave.

The game didn't suffer when the people whose "sole reason for playing the game" was rofl-podding everything left the game. The game didn't suffer when the people whose "sole reason for playing the game" was so that they could farm bases with their HEAT rounds left the game, or when Liberators were nerfed, or when the amount of anti-armor was increased and vehicles became targets, or when the lattice was instated.

That's the point. At the end of the day, everytime there's a major change to the game, you get a crowd of people losing their shit about it. Some of them even leave.

And yet here we are.

If a hundred pilots quit playing the game altogether because this one little maneuver is getting nerfed then, well, why should I care anymore than I cared about the people who left due to all the changes I listed above?

[NoXousX]

I hope they go and implement the changes to ESF's, i fly a lot in a scythe and hate seeing ace pilots use this maneuver on novice pilots, they don't stand a chance and get pretty much zero practice flying.
This change will really open the skies up for some fun dog fighting instead of cheap shots

They don't stand a chance either way. And by "fun" you mean "fun" for a couple of weeks until it becomes boring and monotonous? Hover mode IS variety in this game. I honestly can't picture flying without it, it would be some dumbed down. It opens up an entirely different set of physics and maneuvers.

[Ghoest9]

The flight model in PS2 is ridiculous and the reverse maneuver is an absurd artifact of the flight model.

[Redshift]

The flight model in PS2 is ridiculous and the reverse maneuver is an absurd artifact of the flight model.

What you'd have it more realistic? because then you'd be blowing up tanks from half a cont away with lock on missiles.

The flight model is fairly fun and engaging, which is about as much as you can hope for in a game. if you try to make it too like real physics then you have to give weaponary that works with real physics.

[BlaxicanX]

Yeah, like the flight model in Battlefield and Halo and all those other games where aircraft aren't hopelessly broken.

[snafus]

Then they can leave.

The game didn't suffer when the people whose "sole reason for playing the game" was rofl-podding everything left the game. The game didn't suffer when the people whose "sole reason for playing the game" was so that they could farm bases with their HEAT rounds left the game, or when Liberators were nerfed, or when the amount of anti-armor was increased and vehicles became targets, or when the lattice was instated.

That's the point. At the end of the day, everytime there's a major change to the game, you get a crowd of people losing their shit about it. Some of them even leave.

And yet here we are.

If a hundred pilots quit playing the game altogether because this one little maneuver is getting nerfed then, well, why should I care anymore than I cared about the people who left due to all the changes I listed above?

Your ignorance of the population changes since launch is disturbing to me. This game has taken a huge crash in numbers since launch day. Though that is to be expected of most MMO's and the variables that caused it are many. For you to say that game changes don't affect the overall player base shows a large disconnect on your part.

Yes we are here still playing the game. Clinging to the hope that SOE doesn't screw the pooch again. You may not care if 100 or 10000 people quit playing but many of us do. This game is declining in more ways then one. If SOE goes through with this nerf then it will be another hit to the population and allure to the game overall.

[BlaxicanX]

Has nothing to do with ignorance. Unless you can prove that our dwindling playerbase is at all related to the changes made to the game, it's a moot point.

Trying to claim that my assertion is "game changes don't affect player base" is putting words in my mouth. My claim is that the number of people who leave due to these changes are a minority. Which is true. The number of dedicated pilots in the game are already a minority in the PS2 playerbase. The number of dedicated pilots who will leave due to these changes are a minority in a minority.

If that minority of a minority once to quit the game because of a single feature, than whatever. Others will take your place on the leaderboards, and they'll do it without this air maneuver.

[Obstruction]

retracted

[Varsam]

Has nothing to do with ignorance. Unless you can prove that our dwindling playerbase is at all related to the changes made to the game, it's a moot point.

Trying to claim that my assertion is "game changes don't affect player base" is putting words in my mouth. My claim is that the number of people who leave due to these changes are a minority. Which is true. The number of dedicated pilots in the game are already a minority in the PS2 playerbase. The number of dedicated pilots who will leave due to these changes are a minority in a minority.

If that minority of a minority once to quit the game because of a single feature, than whatever. Others will take your place on the leaderboards, and they'll do it without this air maneuver.
That's a supremely selfish attitude. Continually alienating minority groups to appease the mob will eventually whittle the population. To say those minorities don't matter... is honestly a pretty naive and douchy thing to say. More pointedly, this change will not help new flyers at all. It will not attract or retain new players. All it will do is piss off a great many veteran flyers.

[PredatorFour]

Lib is going to dominate the sky after this nerf.



(Obviously hasn't seen the new ESF weapons coming in.........)

[Ghoest9]

What you'd have it more realistic? because then you'd be blowing up tanks from half a cont away with lock on missiles.

The flight model is fairly fun and engaging, which is about as much as you can hope for in a game. if you try to make it too like real physics then you have to give weaponary that works with real physics.

Weapons systems are NOT the flight model.

And Im not suggesting perfectly realistic flight. But it would be nice to have a flight model that at least suggested the laws of physics and principals of aerodynamics.


It would be fine these aircraft were basically jet powered helicopters like PS1, but what were flying just seems like magic carpets with guns.

[Obstruction]

(Obviously hasn't seen the new ESF weapons coming in.........)

you're right man. i forgot that all those terrible pilots that get 150mm shells through their canopies just needed a new weapon.

a real pilot is a threat with a standard ESF weapon and AB pods.

[AzK]

SoE's ultimate goal is to dumb down gameplay as much as possible so everyone can play and be on more or less the same level, i mean, it's no secret, the game itself is a dumbed down version of planetside 1 even as far as infantry combat is concerned.

It actually is not that different from the infantry aspect of it. In ps1 a better player had very high chances to turn around and kill a less skilled attacker, they changed that in ps2 by giving everyone the ability to pretty much insta kill by just spraying randomly in somebody's back. Now they're just doing the same to aicraft by lowering the required skill cap to fly one, so even if you're a god in your esf, you will be limited by game mechanics in your chances to fight back when dealing with multiple attackers or people engaging you from the back.

The skill/competitive aspect of this game is pretty much non existent already, it's only natural that they're trying to eliminate it even from those few areas where it still somewhat matters.

[Illtempered]

And the dumbing down continues