Implants: Potential Changes for Better Balance

[GeoGnome]

People should likely start girding their loins for the implant discussion once more, as September will be the second stab SOE takes at Implants, after they were shot down by the community last time, so I thought I would open this discussion with one quick suggestion that I thought would have helped matters...

Implants as they were designed, were absolutes. You were Immune to X, Y, or Z, you could not be seen by this or that, etc. etc. They were quite powerful in the right situations, and some were more combat oriented than others. While this is all well and good, the problem is that the implants could negate grenades and certed into radars... and they cost money.

The thing that always bothered me about this, was the fact that they removed the effects of certain grenades... something that can be used tactically. There was likewise no way to tell what implants people had beforehand, nor a way to disable the implants. So what if there were?

EMP grenades could be used to disable implants. Throwing one shuts down an implant's effect for X seconds, thus allowing a well organized group to potentially disable the few people in a room who wouldn't be bothered by a concussive grenade.

Now what about detecting implants, and scouting? Well simple, there is an advanced targetting implant... make someone who uses that, able to tell what implants someone is using. Now we have a situation where one implant can detect other implants, making it infinitely more useful than something that just tells you health and vehicle occupants.

Simply put, this way you gain the abilities of the implants, give them some disadvantages, =encourage tactics, and encourage intelligence gathering.

TLDR: Make implants such that they are disabled via EMP grenades, and make the type of implant present, detectable using the advanced targetting implant.

Any other suggestions are more than welcome, does anyone have any other ideas for how the implants could be balanced more effectively?

[GreyFrog]

I think more Q_Q was had because the implants were pay to use and only lasted X hours. Temporary paid for items that provide a large advantage is the clearest case of "we are utterly shit at PR" that I've seen in recent time.

[Rolfski]

Tbh, I rather have us wait for what the devs come up with before we start another infuriating discussion on implants. Interesting idea about the EMP grenade though.

[typhaon]

I'd prefer they work on filling out the classes with new and balanced skills, rather than throwing out this one-size-fits-all "implants" - that are sure to be a mess of balance issues.

[Carbon Copied]

As in another implant discussion I'd like to see implants be crafted/combined items that are constructed by a per user basis at Tech Plants and use the individual's resources. You want the "advantage" you have to go out of your way to get it, fight for it and keep it under control for your faction. Also open up a gameplay for spec ops to disrupt the supply of these implants by allowing them to sabotage/flip the combining station(s) at the tech plant itself.

[Ertwin]

As in another implant discussion I'd like to see implants be crafted/combined

Please no, I hate crafting with a fiery passion.

[GreyFrog]

As in another implant discussion I'd like to see implants be crafted/combined items that are constructed by a per user basis at Tech Plants and use the individual's resources. You want the "advantage" you have to go out of your way to get it, fight for it and keep it under control for your faction. Also open up a gameplay for spec ops to disrupt the supply of these implants by allowing them to sabotage/flip the combining station(s) at the tech plant itself.

Yeah that'd be an interesting idea.

Want to make an implant to see HP out to a distance? Craft it at your tech plant.....but you'll need to control a biolab too.

Want an implant for faster shield gen? Craft that at a tech plant.....but you'll need an amp station.

ETC.

Need crafting stations behind shields though :)

Would give a reason for capturing and holding bases, you could make the implants last X hours without creating pay2win rage. Spawn implants off the incoming resource change.

[camycamera]

its not a bad idea. however I, like many others, think that there should be no implant that totally removes effects of grenades, but rather reduces it. it is OP and needs teh nerfz man.

and i hope for even more better and creative implants, like footstep trackers (like from crysis 2 where it leaves highlighted boot prints in the ground to show you were an enemy has been)...?

also, hopefully it wont be a limited-use idea like they first proposed, some of them should at least have an activation key maybe, but with some of them always on (and some cheaper than others)?

[CzuukWaterson]

I see them being used primarily as a cert sink for end game. Think of potions in other games. Minor buffs to very specific skills. 3% for BR 99 and below, 5% for BR 100. Perhaps things like weapon class reload speed, recoil reduction, shield resists, shield or health regen, etc.

[Carbon Copied]

Please no, I hate crafting with a fiery passion.

So do I; which is why I'm not talking about your RPG "You need 3 tanned leathers, ores and dyes". The inconvenience is in that you have to have go to the Tech Lab to "purchase" these items so it'd be slightly dumb if you add a second time sink of clicking nanite integrity buttons wouldn't it?

Does it need a no nonsense quick progress bar? Probably not as that's another inconvenience.

[JohnnyRicardo]

I can't see why this game would need such a thing as implants at all. You can gain all sorts of situational advantages by how you use the certs you earn. That should be enough. I don't think they will implement this as a crafting system at all since it seems like they want to earn money from this. Bad idea.

[GeoGnome]

Tbh, I rather have us wait for what the devs come up with before we start another infuriating discussion on implants. Interesting idea about the EMP grenade though.

My thought on the matter, is the best time to have discussions about it, is a time when your discussion can actually contribute. Implants are about a month out, according to the roadmap, which means around this time is when you need to start actually talking about it... because more than likely the Devs are talking about it. And reading what people are saying about it. If you make comments about your grand plans for some feature a half a week before it comes out, it has about a 0.001% chance of having an affect on the feature your worried about.

If people want to say what they would prefer implants be, the time to make that comment is now. Evaluating what is presented after it is released is something else entirely.

So do I; which is why I'm not talking about your RPG "You need 3 tanned leathers, ores and dyes". The inconvenience is in that you have to have go to the Tech Lab to "purchase" these items so it'd be slightly dumb if you add a second time sink of clicking nanite integrity buttons wouldn't it?

Does it need a no nonsense quick progress bar? Probably not as that's another inconvenience.

So your saying: Depending on the facilities your faction owns, these are the different implants you can get, and only at the Tech plant?

I actually like that a lot. The only problem I forsee is Esamir and it's one tech plant.

Question though: What about those special resources that Malorn talked about in FNO Whatever it was, where he gave details on the resource system? He said something to the affect of: Certain resources dropped by meteor strikes that are limited in the amount of resources you get, but are a special resource that can do something else. Maybe they drop around the map, and you have to go get them and bring them back to the techplant, before your faction can get implants? And, yeah: Only let them be created at tech plants.

I see them being used primarily as a cert sink for end game. Think of potions in other games. Minor buffs to very specific skills. 3% for BR 99 and below, 5% for BR 100. Perhaps things like weapon class reload speed, recoil reduction, shield resists, shield or health regen, etc.

You see, that seems more pay to win to me, than negating more fall damage and not being detected by radar. This is actually one of those games were a 5% buff to reload speed would be really useful, more-so than really any of the current implants, which are situation. Just a straight character buff, only available to higher level people because of cost... Big no.

[CzuukWaterson]

You see, that seems more pay to win to me, than negating more fall damage and not being detected by radar. This is actually one of those games were a 5% buff to reload speed would be really useful, more-so than really any of the current implants, which are situation. Just a straight character buff, only available to higher level people because of cost... Big no.

Who said anything about paying for them with station cash? I suggested that they be paid for with certs. The in game currency earned by playing. That is all. they are a sink for the in game currency and should provide some benefit for end game. Currently, BR 100 means nothing but a title. Every MMO ever made has some exclusive content or gear for max level.

[GeoGnome]

Who said anything about paying for them with station cash? I suggested that they be paid for with certs. The in game currency earned by playing. That is all. they are a sink for the in game currency and should provide some benefit for end game. Currently, BR 100 means nothing but a title. Every MMO ever made has some exclusive content or gear for max level.

They've already said that implants will cost certs and/or station cash, so that is kind of a constant that you have to plan around (No, I am not going to be that guy, and say: "Oh ho! But you get certs faster by paying monies, so p2w! P2W all the time!" because that is so roundabout, you could carry a toy unicorn and be classified as a merry-go-round, every-time one makes that argument)

It's not ideal, I'm not going to say that is an objectively better system, and I think in an ideal world they would only cost certs, or be unlocked via level progression like loadout options; but that is the way we've heard it will be. Heck, I'd prefer they didn't cost SC at all. I understand trying to make some money, but isn't that what Player studio is for? I mean the implants aren't that powerful... and would be made substantially deeper if they could just be acquired through hard work. I mean: You have to hold certain facilities and acquire resources to get certain implants, so the more powerful grenade blocking implants become something that people will fight over getting... simply because they are rare and something that can be traded... isn't that something that the Dev team have said the want to implement, so that Gifting will be a stronger system when it comes out? That way people can gift implants, trading them off for more powerful implants.

I mean, if something is to have value, actually make it rare and difficult to acquire... you know, so people can have fun getting them.

[Carbon Copied]

So your saying: Depending on the facilities your faction owns, these are the different implants you can get, and only at the Tech plant?

I actually like that a lot. The only problem I forsee is Esamir and it's one tech plant.

Question though: What about those special resources that Malorn talked about in FNO Whatever it was, where he gave details on the resource system? He said something to the affect of: Certain resources dropped by meteor strikes that are limited in the amount of resources you get, but are a special resource that can do something else. Maybe they drop around the map, and you have to go get them and bring them back to the techplant, before your faction can get implants? And, yeah: Only let them be created at tech plants.

The thing is you could give the implants as much or as little depth as needed. I think having to manafacture them at a Tech Plant makes sense in that they are "tech items" not only for the fact it increases the importancy of the base. Might be wrong here though but the Bio Lab / Tech Plant / Amp Station ratio Tech Labs there are the least of so theres more chance to deny/control the supply of the demand.

Stations could be thought of as tech tree enablers like Grey Frog picked up on:

Tech Plant A / B / C - Tree 1
Amp Station D / E / F - Tree 2
Bio Lab G / H / I - Tree 3
(Interlink Facility J - Tree 4?)

Benefits should be a cat and mouse affair where you have the situation of one faction may own the Tech Plant but the other factions have the scope to deny them of the other tech trees (similar to pulling tanks etc.) - the Tech Plant is a primary target but its still important to not lose sight of the other installations as a defensive/offensive objective depending on which side of the fence you're sitting. Theres only one tier ever created to keep everything on a level base line as much as possible.

Post global lattice and continent locking though it brings in that choice of after the lock and you move on to the next continent (not owning the Tech Plant there) do you abandon the fight to get your "advantage" in safe terrority but potentially cost a victory somewhere? I like risk choices like this personally but may not be for everyone.

Ref Malorn's spitballing of meteor shower style special resource types; these could be a "increase durability" style bonus (read as increase equip length of time until they expire) - rather than increasing the potency or strengthening the implant effect. Adds a distinct upgrade to going and doing these resource runs but equally it has it's own risk flip side etc.

All spitballing of what if's at the end of the day..

[EVILPIG]

The problem with balancing implants is that the game has a level of balance and anything that changes numbers just throws it out of whack. Look at how broken the ZOE is.

[Dragonskin]

The problem with balancing implants is that the game has a level of balance and anything that changes numbers just throws it out of whack. Look at how broken the ZOE is.

Says the scatmax user. Actually I would go with look how broken the TR maxes are. The NC and VS actually have useful ones.

But yea, implants will cause balance issues just like anything else they add into the game. Every time something new comes out it seems to be OP.

[CzuukWaterson]

They've already said that implants will cost certs and/or station cash, so that is kind of a constant that you have to plan around (No, I am not going to be that guy, and say: "Oh ho! But you get certs faster by paying monies, so p2w! P2W all the time!" because that is so roundabout, you could carry a toy unicorn and be classified as a merry-go-round, every-time one makes that argument)

It's not ideal, I'm not going to say that is an objectively better system, and I think in an ideal world they would only cost certs, or be unlocked via level progression like loadout options; but that is the way we've heard it will be. Heck, I'd prefer they didn't cost SC at all. I understand trying to make some money, but isn't that what Player studio is for? I mean the implants aren't that powerful... and would be made substantially deeper if they could just be acquired through hard work. I mean: You have to hold certain facilities and acquire resources to get certain implants, so the more powerful grenade blocking implants become something that people will fight over getting... simply because they are rare and something that can be traded... isn't that something that the Dev team have said the want to implement, so that Gifting will be a stronger system when it comes out? That way people can gift implants, trading them off for more powerful implants.

I mean, if something is to have value, actually make it rare and difficult to acquire... you know, so people can have fun getting them.

They've said a lot of things and then they went back to the drawing board because of the /forumrage. Now we are having a discussion on what we would suggest they change to make them better next time. I'm suggesting that they should be used primarily as a cert sink for end game, therefore making them rare and difficult to obtain.

The idea of allowing them to be purchased based on in game conditions is a pretty good one but it has some problems. The biggest problem of course is population imbalance. In the worst cases some conditions may never be met by lower populated factions.

Cert gifting is a no go. PS_TRay was pretty adamant about that at the keynote of SOELive. I couldn't agree more. As a consequence gifting anything purchased with certs should also be a no go.

[GeoGnome]

They've said a lot of things and then they went back to the drawing board because of the /forumrage. Now we are having a discussion on what we would suggest they change to make them better next time. I'm suggesting that they should be used primarily as a cert sink for end game, therefore making them rare and difficult to obtain.

The idea of allowing them to be purchased based on in game conditions is a pretty good one but it has some problems. The biggest problem of course is population imbalance. In the worst cases some conditions may never be met by lower populated factions.

Cert gifting is a no go. PS_TRay was pretty adamant about that at the keynote of SOELive. I couldn't agree more. As a consequence gifting anything purchased with certs should also be a no go.

Yeah I know, I was agreeing with you, after that initial statement.

Yeah, I thought of that too when it came to issues. Part of me wants to say that the system should be somewhat unforgiving, but you always run into the pop balance bugbear. I tend to think that the pop balance issues will start to correct themselves a little more when we get rid of alerts and move on to doing Continental conquest.

Yeah, Cert gifting should never happen, but what I was talking about was gifting implants that were made, not gifting certs. They have said that december will introduce a gifting system, by which you can give guns, cosmetics, items, etc. to other players.