Exploits and developer apathy

[Spoof]

It amazes me that developer focus is on irrelevant eSports when there are far more important issues to resolve in PS2. Here's one example...

Spawn rooms can be farmed from outside by aiming at specific areas of the structure.

This isn't about isolated cases. I was just on Miller and the entire continent was being farmed, with every contested base being exploited by the same players causing splash damage inside the spawns. It certainly didn't look like an eSport to me. More like an xPloit.

The exploiters themselves are not the problem - they are a symptom of a broken feature and a lack of attention to resolve it to the benefit of the players, and to me this is where the roadmap leaves the tracks. So just for fun, here's my "Planetside 2 Fantasy Roadmap".

1. You come into work tomorrow, call a meeting and say "Here's the thing. The spawn rooms are broken. Seriously broken. They are being exploited. Customers are pissed. We fix this today. We patch tomorrow."

How do you like that roadmap? And if you don't get it fixed this week can I have my money back? Or should I keep paying you because all the new players who witness this won't be willing to invest in the game?

Apologies for my pessimism. I've had to listen to my outfit pointing out broken features of this game every single night for the past nine months and, to be honest, it's time you nailed this. It really is.

Anyway I'm hoping Matt or someone else will get to read this and perhaps (wishful thinking!) have a surge of empathy. Hamma's site is one of the only places where developers and real fans actually mix without the static noise of the official forums and their trolls.

[PredatorFour]

Anyway I'm hoping Matt or someone else will get to read this and perhaps (wishful thinking!) have a surge of empathy.

I doubt it. While i agree with you entirely it was his bugbear all along that planetside 2 should have esports.

[Neurotoxin]

Yes, players outside the draw distance of a shield can blast people beyond that shield. It is a known problem, and exploiters should be reported so their BR can be appropriately rolled back by CS. My guess is that it is just as tough to fix as not seeing bullets fired from far away, and that the two might even be related.

It would be easy to just turn up the draw distance on shield objects, but then performance would be compromised as shields which we can't see and don't need to deal with are still being drawn and processed. Then it wouldn't feel like an "irrelevant eSport" because the framerate is too chunky for people with less than top-of-the-line hardware to play well.

[ChipMHazard]

Since when is eSports irrelevant and bugs far more important? Certainly not when it comes down to the future plans of PS2. Anyway, different teams. I don't see why doing the former would necessarily compromise the ability to do the latter:p

Only thing I can write on this is to report the bugs (Ingame and perhaps also via other outlets) and wait until the devs get around to fixing it. If a bug is game breaking enough then chances are that they're doing everything they can to get it fixed asap. (Obviously I agree that they should fix the shields asap)

[GreyFrog]

New bug for me last night. If you fire a lasher across the face of a spawn shield its "splash" damage will hit people inside the shield. Took me a while to figure out how I was getting hit.

[Blynd]

Remember that a bug is no longer a bug if its been in game for more then 1 update. It is now a feature :)

[igster]

+1 to this. You can stuff your quality of life improvements and please squash the most ridiculous basic gameplay bugs that not only have been present and have been reported for a long time but actually are getting worse with each patch.

Yes, players outside the draw distance of a shield can blast people beyond that shield

I believe this actually got worse in the last patch.
Simple to reproduce : Put a Sunderer underneath Allatum in the 'garage' with a shield and fire at it with a tank. After about 100 yards out the shield doesn't render and the Sunderer dies pretty soon after.

Once you've sorted out some simple stuff like this then perhaps you can move on to the other ridiculous issue of unequal weapon ranges and draw distances.
Simple solution : Make the weapon ranges equal to the draw distance of infantry. Then you wont get the ridiculous situation of vehicles being destroyed by invisible rockets and shells from invisible players.

I cannot tell you how disappointing these basic gameplay bugs/exploits are to your loyal community - over a year after release.

I get shot and killed by invisible players or inside a shielded base but we have a hundred new camo's in the store for y'all!


Oh and BTW - I'm a long time coder so I know sometimes 'simple' isn't actually that simple... but they are important to players....these are not just bugs with workarounds ... they pretty much completely ruin gameplay in certain situations - like defending the South Eastern Mao outlying base from TR when there is a large force of striker wielding infantry coming down the hill. Anything behind the shield is dead within seconds. (Not picking on TR in particular.. but these bugs do make the lock on weapons insanely powerful.. it's not TR's fault.. it's the development teams)

[GreyFrog]

The Mana AV turret is terrible with that render issue.....seems simple to me to fix that though. Tail damage off to zero past X meters, we know they can do this all infantry weapons currently have damage fall off at range.

[Mordelicius]

I don't think it's because don't care, I think it's a matter of their overreliance on culled data and graphs instead of actually playing the game and getting the experience and feel of gameplay.

For example, I noticed they just added Flash Scout Radar spotting XP which is a much requested feature after the radar nerf.

But in terms of say NDZ, Continent Cap/Uncap Percentage, OP Harassers etc., they need more a first hand experience how it affects gameplay.

Again some examples:

- TotalBiscuit came back and he's not at all upset at the Harassers. If he's actually been playing, he would have called it OP. He would have opined it is frustrating to fight such vehicle with no weakness.

- Indar ownership used to be a really big deal in Waterson. It's bragging rights. Since they lowered the percentage - 85% cap/ 75% uncap - Indar ownership is now completely meaningless. Players used to log in just to defend or attack at all cost and the fights were tremendous. Now, players really don't have anything to look forward to.

They need to tinker with these numbers to bring back the excitement of having to defend or take a continent. You won't get these kinds of feedback from reading charts, graphs, numbers and reports.

[Spoof]

Yes, players outside the draw distance of a shield can blast people beyond that shield. It is a known problem...

Actually I was referring to the close-range exploits of hitting the shields at specific points/angles with tank shells and grenade launchers. But this too.

New bug for me last night. If you fire a lasher across the face of a spawn shield...

That too. Also add the C4 expoits, Zephyr exploits... so many options to choose from!

Only thing I can write on this is to report the bugs (Ingame and perhaps also via other outlets) and wait until the devs get around to fixing it. If a bug is game breaking enough then chances are that they're doing everything they can to get it fixed asap. (Obviously I agree that they should fix the shields asap)

Hence my apathy reference.

If they are working on it they're doing a good job of disguising the fact, and dragging their heels in response. I remember the med-pack fiasco, how it affected everyone in my outfit, how the dozen or so other bugs at that time added up to one big showstopper, and how long it took to fix. Too long.

There are other threads about the spawn exploits, but my focus is on how it comes to this. Unless you're talking about 'the future of Planetside' the devs have their heads in the sand. How about 'the right here, right now of Planetside'?

I'd love a response from Matt, Malorn, anyone, just something that simply says "we hear you, we're on it this week."

I don't think it's because don't care, I think it's a matter of their overreliance on culled data and graphs instead of actually playing the game and getting the experience and feel of gameplay.

I think you nailed it. The spawn room exploit isn't top priority because the core dev team do not play the game.

They're looking at spreadsheets.

[Plaqueis]

I don't know if this fits the topic, but i had an interesting experience last night at Dahaka Uplink Hub. We were fighting the last moments of alert there on the bridge, just defending the Hub after failed attempt at Amp Station itself. I was just behind the bridgeshield as infiltrator trying to pop enemies attempting to cross. I used the normal 'pop on the otherside, fire and get back in cover'-tactic without much success.

Suddenly i got pinged by something and i immediately backed up few meters behind the shield. *Clonk*, headshot and i was dead. "Hmm, the shooter must be on the hills on the left..".

I got revived, went in cover and checked the hill, nothing. Went back on the last spot few meters behind the shield and *Clonk*, another headshot and death. "Wtf?"

I got revived again, went to the shield, took aim at the bridge and saw an infiltrator on my sights, popped a shot and he died. It was the guy who got me twice, he had somehow managed to shoot thru the shield.

I was under impression that shots shouldn't come thru them, one way or another. Correct me if i'm wrong (quite possible, i've never paid much attention on them... i was just surprised.

[ChipMHazard]

Hence my apathy reference.

If they are working on it they're doing a good job of disguising the fact, and dragging their heels in response. I remember the med-pack fiasco, how it affected everyone in my outfit, how the dozen or so other bugs at that time added up to one big showstopper, and how long it took to fix. Too long.

There are other threads about the spawn exploits, but my focus is on how it comes to this. Unless you're talking about 'the future of Planetside' the devs have their heads in the sand. How about 'the right here, right now of Planetside'?

I'd love a response from Matt, Malorn, anyone, just something that simply says "we hear you, we're on it this week."

I don't see that as being apathetic towards the community.

How are they disguising it? By not actively giving reports on the progress of a particular problem? They aren't going out of their way to hide anything here, they just aren't showing us what they are doing on a daily basis. How many companies do that? Unless a company is actively ignoring/dismissing the problems that are being presented then I don't see how you can make this claim.
Too long to fix? How are you able to judge that from a technical perspective? Do you know what is wrong and how long it should actually take to fix certain issues? From a player and business perspective I agree, but some things just take time. Rushing something out isn't always a good idea.

Why would they have their heads in the sand? Do you truly think that just because one part of the team is working on MLG content that means that other parts of the team have stopped working on fixing bugs? You can do both. Obviously I can't answer as to whether or not this is currently the case or to which extent.
Here and now? Isn't that rather presumptuous? Taking SOE's sketchy QA testing of their patches I don't really want them to put out hotfixes for serious issues, just to try and appeach some players whom have growing impatient (Even if it is perfectly understable for them to have grown impatient).

I don't think you would want that. Whenever they've given out dates, even if only circa dates, the response has always been the same when they've found themselves unable to uphold said release window. If the devs went out and wrote something along the lines of "We're working on it this week" then people are going to think that the fix will be coming out the very same week, or soon thereafter. Just look at the roadmap and how the reaction has been to that. Or how they kept pushing back the reveal of Hossin content.
I do think that the best you can hope for is a "We're aware of the problem and are working to fix it" comment, unless they are actually ready to release a fix for it in the very near future. If they are being completely silent on the matter, which I have no idea is actually the case, then yes I do agree that they should at the very least calm down the playerbase by letting it know that they are working on a fix. That would seem like the smartest thing to do. Beyond that? No, not until they have something concrete to share.

[igster]

..he had somehow managed to shoot thru the shield.

I was under impression that shots shouldn't come thru them, one way or another. Correct me if i'm wrong (quite possible, i've never paid much attention on them... i was just surprised.

Bingo.
Basically if the shield doesn't render for the player taking the shot - it doesn't exist.
So in this situation the guy next to the shield has their shot blocked - he can see a shield.
The player/vehicle/aircraft that is outside of render range of the shield shoots and destroys whatever is next to it.

Pretty crap don't we all think?

The whole render mechanism is an absolute mess.

1) Shield rendering
2) Weapon ranges being greater than the render ranges. So players are truly killed by things that they can't see.

[satori]

Remember that a bug is no longer a bug if its been in game for more then 1 update. It is now a feature :)

Ha!!!

[Sunrock]

Remember that a bug is no longer a bug if its been in game for more then 1 update. It is now a feature :)

By the EQ doctrine its true :D I just had hoped we eovoled from it.

[Spoof]

How are they disguising it?

Issues with the spawns have been known for a long time, and it's slowly built to the point where exploiting them is becoming common. Their response is disguised by having no response at all. I choose the word apathy because there's no apparent foresight here. This problem is going to reach critical mass before they get on top of it.

Of course, if they are aware of the issue and haven't done anything until now... well that's even worse.

Too long to fix? How are you able to judge that from a technical perspective?

More than 25 years as a game developer (yes, I'm an old fart). There are hard to track bugs in any complex system. There are also aspects of every codebase that make deeply-rooted issues difficult to resolve without fundamental changes. Trust me, this is not the case here.

Ignoring any potential rendering issues, the problem with the spawns is a design issue with the assets used to block weapon fire, which allow line-checks for indirect damage to succeed. Primarily that's what needs to be addressed, but they could also add a code fix to entirely neutralise enemy damage while you are physically within the bounds of a spawn room, based on ownership. That code is almost trivial and could potentially make the problem go away forever - though as you rightly point out, it would need thorough testing and QA.

Incidentally, some of the experiences people have of being killed after stepping back behind the shield are likely due to client side lag. Quite simply, you are still infront of the shield on the other guy's screen when he shoots. This can also be exploited with external tools, but that's a completely separate issue.

Why would they have their heads in the sand? Do you truly think that just because one part of the team is working on MLG content that means that other parts of the team have stopped working on fixing bugs?

No, but the motivation and focus doesn't appear to be there to tackle grass-roots issues. Since the game shipped the team has expanded and I think a lot of information flows in the wrong direction. It gets classed as a chore, and falls into the hands of junior staff.

Are Matt Higby or John Smedly aware that the spawn rooms are fallible?

If not: apathy, because they should be. If they are: apathy, because they should've nailed it immediately to retain the game's integrity (see below).

Here and now? Isn't that rather presumptuous? Taking SOE's sketchy QA testing of their patches I don't really want them to put out hotfixes for serious issues, just to try and appeach some players whom have growing impatient (Even if it is perfectly understable for them to have grown impatient).

They built this game's reputation on zero-tolerance to cheats and exploits. How can it possibly be presumptuous to want immediate response to such a gratuitous issue?

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the team behind PS2. I followed from the first announcement; watched Higby grow from a slightly nervous first press conference to a bearded, decisive leader; participated in alpha and beta; approved of TRay's trend-setting fashion...

But we play the game every day, while they don't. We see the issues, we report the issues... and we get irate when nothing is done until the horses have left the barn.