Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return

[Rolfski]

I kinda admin the biggest Dutch Planetside 2 community (http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/1557814) and people PM me/feedback all the time, mostly about the following issues:

"I die all the time! How do I progress fastest?"
"This game runs like shit! How can I improve performance?"
"Pro7 sucks, they never answer my questions!"
"What's a good outfit to join?"

In this topic I want to address the first and probably most unpopular issue in a hardcore forum like this: Giving sucky, new players a satisfying experience.

In my opinion, it's ok for players to suck at the beginning as long as you provide them the tools to progress fast. The more content this game generates over time (new continents, new game mechanics), the better tools you need to provide for new players to overcome this growing, massive wall of complexity.
Therefore, the highly unpopular kill-cam needs to return imo. You just can't expect from new players to learn and get motivated by a very depressing dead screen that gives lazy, camping farmers an insane advantage and doesn't teach new players anything. The amounts of ways and angles you can die in this game is getting more insane every month. Players desperately need accelerated learning tools to keep up.

This becomes even worse because farming is still by far the most game ruining mechanic in the game. When I play, I run with generally well-respected outfits (BRTD, GOTR, 666th Devildogs) but even these, well-lead outfits, cannot escape the corruption that comes with this very rotten mechanic.

In the end, I can even live with SOE's stubborn refusal to admit that KDR is a useless, farm-promoting stat that belongs to a team death match game, not an objective based game.
I cannot live however with mechanics that unnecessarily widen the gap for new players because SOE is afraid of unpopular changes under hardcore players.

[NewSith]

Snipers (and upcoming fulltime cloakers) suffer from kill-cams.
AMS drivers suffer from kill-cams.
A group of defenders holding an enclosed area suffers from kill-cams.

That's enough for me to say "No" to kill-cam of any kind.

[Mastachief]

FFS no.

There is no hard learning curve to this game, anyone thinking different belong in hello kitty world of adventure or something similarly apt for their iq.

We the community lobbied hard for the removal of the killcam and it was absolutely the right thing to do.

This is not the game you are looking for.

Also who respects the outfits quoted? only those players that don't know any better because they are not prepared to put the effort in this is also the reason they suck in the first place.

We have enough COD inspired crap already lets not go further down that road.

[Taramafor]

*Gets sniped* THERE HE IS! I SEE HIM ON KILL CAM!

*Gets mined by cloaked infiltrator* HE'S HIDING IN THE CORNER! I SEE HIM ON KILL CAM!

*Gets shot in the back* BEHIND ME! KILL CAM!

You get the idea. It throws surprise attacks right out the window. While being unseen is a minor element to this game it is fun when done and part of war is finding out where the enemy is.

And sniping? Don't stand still. Zig zag. Use cover. How about these things and more being provided in the VR and not just when you make a new character? Seems like a much better idea.

Mastachief: Actually, Devil Dogs are pretty good. Only outfit that matches TRG from what I seen.

Also, am I the only one that thinks the answer to giving classes something to do is to add mines or C4? Come on, medics with C4 and infiltrators with mines?

[Rolfski]

Snipers (and upcoming fulltime cloakers) suffer from kill-cams.
AMS drivers suffer from kill-cams.
A group of defenders holding an enclosed area suffers from kill-cams.

That's enough for me to say "No" to kill-cam of any kind.
They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics.


You get the idea. It throws surprise attacks right out the window.
Surprise should work as a surprise: You can only use it once.

[Mastachief]

, like real battle mechanics.

Real life kill cams... i gots to get me one of those yo!

[maradine]

Real life kill cams... i gots to get me one of those yo!

Game, set, match.

[NewSith]

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics.

That really only relates to snipers and that's it.

AMSes still suffer, because AMS drivers are a rarity in a proper fight, and moving an AMS during that kind of fight is a blatant suicide. Moreover every second of an undeployed AMS is another second of people spawning further away.
Also while say a group of 6 defends against a group of 10, 1 suicide checker is enough to reveal their positions and weakpoints, viewed from the perspective of the very defenders, that ruins things.

Killcams only increase the pace of a game, forcing everyone to always be on the run. Now think carefully if that HELPS newbies or actually makes it harder for them...

[Taramafor]

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics.

There's a difference between being mobile and having a good chance of avoiding detection and being known exactly where you are right off the bat. Also if cover hides you good enough so you can't be seen from far away, why should it be punished? Seems like the sensible thing to do to me. Sniper with brains beats mindless grunt that doesn't know what hit him. Killcam will not change that.

Here's how people learn in this game (and I can atest to this as I've been through training courses in my outfit). COMMUNICATE! Can you say it with me? Good. If you're good at something share your experience with your fellow team members and help them get better. Game mechanics can only do so much and it's up to us players to help each other where we can.

For example, playing a max? Ask for an engineer. Hurt? Medic. Hit a friendly? Apologize. Find good cover or vantage point? Well guess what, instead of using the quick commutation key use that keyboard, stop being worried about killing for a moment and push T and let a buddy know about it. Commutation is key and I'm always telling my team members when I see an enemy sun coming in or a group of infantry or tanks.

In the end it's about knowing what you're good at and sharing the experience. And this game is meant to be played with others not on your own. Sucks if you're anti social but hey, that's me right there and I still manage. Keep your head on straight, don't give a damn about your K/D ratio and learn as you play no matter how bad you are. Mine was twice as bad as it is now but with time, practice, common sense and communication it's gotten a lot better.

[Rolfski]

That really only relates to snipers and that's it.

AMSes still suffer, because AMS drivers are a rarity in a proper fight, and moving an AMS during that kind of fight is a blatant suicide. Moreover every second of an undeployed AMS is another second of people spawning further away.
Also while say a group of 6 defends against a group of 10, 1 suicide checker is enough to reveal their positions and weakpoints, viewed from the perspective of the very defenders, that ruins things.

Killcams only increase the pace of a game, forcing everyone to always be on the run. Now think carefully if that HELPS newbies or actually makes it harder for them...

Hardly an argument, if you kill people from your AMS location atm, it's already a dead give-away (red dots on mini-map and all).


Here's how people learn in this game (and I can atest to this as I've been through training courses in my outfit). COMMUNICATE!
Bullocks, the fact of life probably is that most players don't run in an outfit, don't communicate or use a headset and just get farmed and need to go an insanely, ever-growing, learning curve to get an idea what kills them.

[NewSith]

Hardly an argument, if you kill people from your AMS location atm, it's already a dead give-away (red dots on mini-map and all.

Here I just cannot agree. It's not just AMS position it gives away (for the most part Sundies are usually marked on the minimap, especially now that they nerfed stealth), but it also allows to obtain some recon, otherwise unavailable by simple means (How AMS is positioned, how dense the spawning is, is it armed with minegiard or not, etc)

But this is where I would like to finish my part of discussion.

[Taramafor]

Bullocks, the fact of life probably is that most players don't run in an outfit, don't communicate or use a headset and just get farmed and need to go an insanely, ever-growing, learning curve to get an idea what kills them.

Don't have to be in an outfit. I've worked with EXE once or twice and have successfully typed that a gal would be an idea and performed it myself with great success (gal drop). I have no headset. I've led my outfit without one at times. I typed hold A and they stayed inside and watched the doors (as instructed by me) even though I wasn't the leader. I then said box them in the spawn room, which they did. I always type locations of any enemy that needs to be known before going off the map (just shout sun east or armor south or whatever). We took over the base. People listen to others and act accordingly or they don't listen and act and lose.

No outfit. No squad leader. Just communication, common sense, a willingness to listen and working together. If you can't work as a team player then learn on your own. Rule of life mate.

I'll also add that me and another TRG member who will remain nameless were half trolling (well, I was half trolling. He was full trolling) but when it comes down to business, everyone listens to each other. Even in outfits we jab at each other but we live to our motto. TRG: Getting shit done. In or out of outfits.

Outfit isn't needed but leadership and working together certainty is. If you don't grasp that in a game with so many team players then I throw up my arms and give up.

[Wahooo]

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics..

I disagree fully and completely. "Camping" is a whiny thing that people that don't like to die bitch about. To me it is on the same level as the whole if it kills me it is cheap or HAX or exploit and if I get kills it is skill.

You are saying that new players need more feedback and that lazy campers should be punished?!?!? How about the people that need a kill cam are the lazy ones? Sniping from a good spot vs. mobility are BOTH needed and one is not the the "CORRECT" way to play. If you are camping and racking up kills the punishment is a good aware player or better sniper figuring it out and killing you. About the most fun thing for me to do is counter sniping a good sniper who is camping a spot and wrecking HA's and Engies.

This whole hatred of "campers" is a pretty new phenomenon in shooters, and honestly I have a LOT less issue with that play style in instanced games like COD than I do with the sprint exploit akimbo shotgun users.

I agree new players could use a better experience but kill cam? HELL NO, NEVER.

[Ruffdog]

kill-cam needs to return imo



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFGfWrJR5Ck

No it bloody doesn't

[ketarakh]

Though I find killcams a little bit too much for this game, I think than newbies must have some sort of info on how and from where they were shot. For example when you die and while you are falling on the ground your camera turns for 2-3 seconds in the direction where the guy that killed you was standing. Some sort of advanced "hit direction detector" UI thingy.

[Gatekeeper]

Though I find killcams a little bit too much for this game, I think than newbies must have some sort of info on how and from where they were shot. For example when you die and while you are falling on the ground your camera turns for 2-3 seconds in the direction where the guy that killed you was standing. Some sort of advanced "hit direction detector" UI thingy.

I'm inclined to agree with Rolfski, but the above suggestion strikes me as an excellent compromise. Freeze frame, turn the camera towards what killed you, and maybe zoom a little bit (x2? x3?). Gives you at least a chance to figure out where you were killed from.

It wouldn't give away all the detailed intel regarding AMS, etc. that some people seem to be worried about, but it would help new players get an idea where they're being camped from.

And really, this game (like PS1 before it) does have a very steep learning curve. It's a lot more complicated than most shooters, and even simple things like LA-sitting-in-a-tree seem to confuse the hell out of a lot of players.

It's easy to say that newbs should just learn to play, but the risk here is that if that learning curve is too steep, they won't ever bother and they'll just quit instead. Like it or not, we *need* new players to keep joining and enjoying this game if we want it to survive, and that means making some compromises to make it accessible.

[camycamera]

why there should not be kill cams:

what people have said. compromises various positions, and gives the victim an unfair advantage.

it is okay for a game like CoD, or even Battlefield, because those games are not as big or persistent as PS2.



imagine this scenario:

if PS2 had the killcam back, imagine a sniper who has found a great spot to snipe a large enemy column. he kills one guy, then the other guy then says to his teammates "hey, there is a sniper in position x!"
can you imagine the shitstorm that would head toward that poor sniper's position? he would die pretty much instantly.

[Mastachief]

I'm inclined to agree with Rolfski, but the above suggestion strikes me as an excellent compromise. Freeze frame, turn the camera towards what killed you, and maybe zoom a little bit (x2? x3?). Gives you at least a chance to figure out where you were killed from.

No. This is just as bad. Learn to play it really is not hard.

It wouldn't give away all the detailed intel regarding AMS, etc. that some people seem to be worried about, but it would help new players get an idea where they're being camped from.

No. It will tell all players where they got shot from TS"Hey guys i'm dead again hes over to the north north east on that rock thing" It will lower the skill gap between the good players and those that cant be arsed to learn to play.

And really, this game (like PS1 before it) does have a very steep learning curve. It's a lot more complicated than most shooters, and even simple things like LA-sitting-in-a-tree seem to confuse the hell out of a lot of players.

The is no steep learning curve, this game is not hard and no part of it is difficult to grasp. It takes a little bit of effort for anyone that can get by in day to day life without dribbling into their cornflakes or getting hit by a bus. Most other FPS games are attractive to contards only and hold their attention for 12 months before they change the scenery and increment the number on the box by 1 and call it a new game, these are games made for ADD kiddies to play for 2 hours every few days

It's easy to say that newbs should just learn to play, but the risk here is that if that learning curve is too steep, they won't ever bother and they'll just quit instead. Like it or not, we *need* new players to keep joining and enjoying this game if we want it to survive, and that means making some compromises to make it accessible.

No if you want it to survive you need to stop dumbing it any further down than it already is. Providing a challenge to the game play provides something to strive for and allows there to be a measurable distance between the class of players

Scrub contard kiddie
Smarter contard kiddie
Newb player
Smarter newb player
Dumb player with good aim
Smart player with crap aim
Smart player with good aim
Really smart player with average aim
Really smart player with good aim

So what if those that find it hard leave, good riddance. This is a free to play game a certain percentage will appreciate the game and its array of different mechanics and will stick around the ones that leave... hey that one less idiot to shoot you in the back or ignore you when you need repairing or healing etc etc. The game has already started to progress in the right direction lets not ruin that by making veteran players (ps1 vets and those from the beginning of the game) leave because if you do, that will be the death knell this game is nothing without strong communities (outfits)

If anything this game needs more complexity.


Gash

[Sunrock]

"I die all the time! How do I progress fastest?"
.

Find an outfit and learn to operate as a group. If you're not running with a minimum of 2 squads (24 players) you're doomed to die all the time or ride the zerg wave.

No kill cam needed. Players need to stop treating PS2 as if it was COD and think they are a one man army.

[Rolfski]

imagine this scenario:

if PS2 had the killcam back, imagine a sniper who has found a great spot to snipe a large enemy column. he kills one guy, then the other guy then says to his teammates "hey, there is a sniper in position x!"
can you imagine the shitstorm that would head toward that poor sniper's position? he would die pretty much instantly. That's why you move, you have this cloak for a good reason.
The typically used argument that finding a good farming spot/ hidey hole is an acquired skill that should reward the player by ranking up kills and stay undetected, is exactly what's causing this game to be such a horrible farming fest.

There's no risk vs reward here. The game does not give any decent feedback about what's killing you and you die fast, which gives farmers basically a carte blanche to continue with impunity at hardly any risk.
It promotes the wrong game play (why going for the objective if farming yields you way more certs?) and increasingly widens the gap for new players to overcome with every map that gets added to the game.


it is okay for a game like CoD, or even Battlefield, because those games are not as big or persistent as PS2.

That is exactly why you even need this even more compared to COD or BF: This game is just way too chaotic and big to get your head around all the camping spots and ways.

As an experienced farmer you shouldn't be too worried about kill-cam like mechanics in this game anyway. You either stay at your camping spot and still typically rack up more than enough kills before its getting too risky or stay mobile and move to another of the million camping spots this game provides. The crazy, cluster fuck battle flow of this game always guarantees you an angle to get a drop on people and kill them before they realize what's hitting them.

The kill-cam in COD didn't stop campers, nor will it in this game. But at least you can learn now from your game play.

[Ertwin]

The flash of red shows which direction shots are coming from, so whenever you die, you should have a good idea of where the kill shot came from.

[ketarakh]

"Newbs should suffer" and "Good riddance" attitudes is bad for every multiplayer game and eventually lead to single server populated with hardcore nolifers with maxed out BR. Which is actually not bad for them but frustrating for everyone else. Like late PS1.

[almalino]

That's why you move, you have this cloak for a good reason.
The typically used argument that finding a good farming spot/ hidey hole is an acquired skill that should reward the player by ranking up kills and stay undetected, is exactly what's causing this game to be such a horrible farming fest.

Really? Farming with a sniper is pretty hard usually when column is on the move.

NO!!! to kill cam. I, actually, like snipers who kills me from unknown locations because it make me think where and how I move around next time I spawn. Kill cam will just eliminate that element for surprise for the both parts.

[Sunrock]

There's no risk vs reward here. The game does not give any decent feedback about what's killing you and you die fast, which gives farmers basically a carte blanche to continue with impunity at hardly any risk.
It promotes the wrong game play (why going for the objective if farming yields you way more certs?) and increasingly widens the gap for new players to overcome with every map that gets added to the game.

I disagree with this. You get enough feedback from the game to know where the dude was when he killed you. If you're some what familiar with the map, paying attention to damage indicators and know the enemies weapons pros and cons you will be able to know where the shot came from. Maybe not exactly but at least with in 10m radius. At least I can and if I can a large majority of players should be able to do that too.

But you're right in one point that PS2 is not a very noob friendly game. If you're coming from COD and only played this game for 10'ish hours your quite fucked. But I don't see a way to change that without ruin the game for every one else that played this game for more then a week.

[Rolfski]

Really? Farming with a sniper is pretty hard usually when column is on the move.

NO!!! to kill cam. I, actually, like snipers who kills me from unknown locations because it make me think where and how I move around next time I spawn. Kill cam will just eliminate that element for surprise for the both parts.
This is not about sniping only. The most ugly farming mechanics come with other weapons actually: Shooting your Prowler at a tower from a distance, endless noob tubing from an elevated spot, Harrassing with a Marauder, etc etc.
And kill cam doesn't eliminate surprise, by the time you have watched the footage and respawned, a good sniper should already have moved to another location.
I agree that sniping is not that easy in this game but this has more to do with low bullet speeds and wide distances in this game.

The flash of red shows which direction shots are coming from, so whenever you die, you should have a good idea of where the kill shot came from.

I disagree with this. You get enough feedback from the game to know where the dude was when he killed you. If you're some what familiar with the map, paying attention to damage indicators and know the enemies weapons pros and cons you will be able to know where the shot came from.

The current dead feedback just doesn't cut it. Red flash indicators don't help you much if you die in an instance. Neither does a mini map full of red dots in a typical frantic fight and sound doesn't help too much either if it's all gunfire and explosives around you. It's just not enough for newer players to help them improve.

[Hmr85]

http://img.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/377875/legitimate%20strategy-700x392.jpg

[PredatorFour]

Yes its unpopular i.e. probably only you that wants it:)


SAY NO TO KILL CAMS!
SAY YES TO HOT PANTS!

[Crator]

The flash of red shows which direction shots are coming from, so whenever you die, you should have a good idea of where the kill shot came from.

^ This. I say no to the type of kill cam you are asking for as well. Just watch the hit detection indicator and next time you spawn look in that direction while hiding. Watch for the shooter in that direction and you'll find him. Simples....

[Hmr85]

I have to agree with everyone else. We had a huge discussion about this wayyyy back when during tech test and it was 20+ pages long. Kill cam is a absolute NO for me.

[ChipMHazard]

"Newbs should suffer" and "Good riddance" attitudes is bad for every multiplayer game and eventually lead to single server populated with hardcore nolifers with maxed out BR. Which is actually not bad for them but frustrating for everyone else. Like late PS1.

Agreed.

I can certainly see the point about giving players more information about what killed them and what they did wrong, besides just playing. Of course a lot of new players are going to be confused the first time they get drop podded in, at least it doesn't drop you in automatically anymore (?).
You drop in, get killed and the only information you have as to what killed you is the death screen. You don't want new players just quitting out of frustration.
I also agree that there are a lot of angles from where someone can kill you, a lot of angles. That of course is mostly about level design.

A killcam would make it harder for someone to camp on a tower, or in other hiding spots in bases. It would show you where exactly an infil sniped you from (Not sure that's even nessecary given how it's not that hard to figure out, given enough experience of course. Which new players probably don't have.) A killcam wouldn't nessecarily make someone able to avoid getting camped, just because you know what to look for doesn't mean you can do anything abou it.
It would also make silencers useless (Unless using it would remove the killcam) and make it a lot harder for groups to pull off sneak attacks.
It would make using trees or other places of cover where you can't freely move around a lot less valid.
I could see one thing becoming a real problem; the death cam being used as a reconnaissance tool, which might hurt outfit and squad gameplay.
If you're being farmed by an organized group or a zerg then knowing where you were killed from isn't going to be much of a help, then again you would probably already know where they are.

I don't see any really compelling arguments for the use of a killcam to provide players with more information about how they died, but I do agree that giving players more information would be a good thing as I see PS2 at times being a very frustrating experience, epsecially for new players.
So basicly, I somewhat agree with the premise but not the proposed solution. I don't see the positives of the killcam outweighing the negatives.

[camycamera]

i rarely have a hard time figuring out where i got shot from. if i get killed by a sniper without knowledge of its location, i think it would be pretty logical to not go to the spot i got killed from last time, and take precaution by moving fast and using cover.


also, tracer fire tells us allot of what(and where) is shooting me.

not to mention, i have not seen many people at all saying "who and what killed me? i want a killcam" at all, so i very much doubt it will be put in, especially with the large amount of backlash it received back during alpha tasting or whenever Higgles showed it off quite some time ago.

[AThreatToYou]

PlanetSide has always had one of the most massive entry barriers. I want to see that reduced; it really hurts the game. I will vote yes to kill-cams only on spotted enemies.

One time, I played without nanoweave. I got stomped. Hard. I had to ask myself, "Is this the game all those newbs/noobs play? I would hate it. I would quit." PlanetSide 2 is probably much more boring than it seems to a player who dies so fast because they don't understand the game yet. An implant that warns a player whenever they are being looked at would also go a long way, more for new players than veterans.

also, anything to reduce the amount of snipers in this game

[Ghoest9]

new worst idea ever


Totally break thre tactical aspect of the game a a minority of the new players will be happy.

[Rolfski]

Agreed.
A killcam would make it harder for someone to camp on a tower, or in other hiding spots in bases. It would show you where exactly an infil sniped you from (Not sure that's even nessecary given how it's not that hard to figure out, given enough experience of course. Which new players probably don't have.) A killcam wouldn't nessecarily make someone able to avoid getting camped, just because you know what to look for doesn't mean you can do anything about it. Exactly my point, Kill-cam doesn't necessarily prevent you from being camped in a tower. If anything, it teaches you the typical spots people can kill you from and helps you become a better tower player. And of course everybody in this forum truly hates this because we have all learned it the hard way. But that's exactly the point of a kill-cam: It provides a short cut for newer players too easier bridge the gap with BR100 players, which is what this game is in dare need of.

To us veterans this may all sound unfair but every month the skill ceiling in this game gets higher and higher. Starting as a new player has become many times harder since the game has launched. Not only because of the added content and complexity but mostly because the players you're up against now are way, way better. It already has gotten to a level that air has basically become a no-go zone now for anybody but top ace pilots.

If you're not giving newer players the tools to progress faster, than this game basically becomes a ghost town for hardcore players only.
In the end, kill cam really doesn't hurt hardcore veterans, they will get their kills anyway. Nor does it completely break the tactical aspect of this game thin foiled veterans want us to make believe. If anything, it discourages the horrible farming mechanics somewhat.


It would also make silencers useless (Unless using it would remove the killcam) No it wouldn't. Not showing up on the minimap still means you can shoot multiple targets while staying undetected for the other players.


and make it a lot harder for groups to pull off sneak attacks.
You will likely have spotted that squad anyway before dying but if kill-cam footage reveals a "shadow squad" it will likely be spotted on the mini map (red dots) or map (enemy 1-12 => 12 - 24) anyway. Not a game breaker in my book.


It would make using trees or other places of cover where you can't freely move around a lot less valid.
Why not? Staying concealed is still as important until you engage. You might actually argue that kill-cam adds a tactical element to the game that forces you to think before you engage: Am I going in and reveal myself or will I let this one slip and stay concealed?


I could see one thing becoming a real problem; the death cam being used as a reconnaissance tool, which might hurt outfit and squad gameplay.
Hardly likely. If you recon and die in front of an enemy Sunderer or squad, you probably have spotted it anyway before you died. Chances that a kill-cam will reveal any new, crucial information is slim at best and certainly not a game breaker. If anything, it promotes for teams to stay more mobile and use fire discipline if they want to stay hidden.


not to mention, i have not seen many people at all saying "who and what killed me? i want a killcam" at all, so i very much doubt it will be put in, especially with the large amount of backlash it received back during alpha tasting or whenever Higgles showed it off quite some time ago.
Believe me, this game has way too many "How the hell did he get me?" - moments for a kill cam to not have its use. I wasn't there in alpha but I doubt if kill-cam ever got a fair chance in this game then. It's got a COD stigma all over it and of course we all know how cool it is to shite on COD.

[Lonehunter]

Therefore, the highly unpopular kill-cam needs to return imo.
Everything you said before this line, really had nothing to do with this line.

I'm sorry but you are looking for a different game mate. Someone killing you 5 times inna row because you can't find them isn't "farming" here. If you think they're camping you have multiple options for radar detection through vehicles, and Infils can detect. Not every class/vehicle can do everything, so you have to be versatile or accept that certain things are for certain roles.

Camping sucks, in every other shooter it's considered cheap. But in Planetside there are spots covered in shadow, spots with a perfect camoflauge backdrop behind you. As an Infiltrator I camp constantly, the whole point of their class is gaining the advantage through stealth, and I love taking advantage of pissed off people who just keep charging the same area over and over.


I fully acknowledge the amount of information that comes through a proper kill cam showing a recording of the death either through the enemy's eyes or in 3rd person around him. But Planetside 2 is the ONLY MMO and FPS...a lot of people don't understand how normal FPS mechanics can hurt the MMO part. With a kill cam every single strategy would be revealed. You'd know where every sniper was hiding, how far every soldier was from you when he killed you, how many of his team where around him when he did it, you could even see bonus information like a Sunderer in the background behind a rock you couldn't see from your angle. My point is this isn't really a First Person Shooter, it's a First Person Wargame. It's an MMO, it takes navigation, exploration, and coordination to get your intel here.

Plenty of players are all ready improving every day. There are many top notch pilots/soldiers in different fields on my server. Just because it makes things easier for new players and hinders experienced players doesn't make it a good thing, you have to have balance and most people think we all ready have it. This was a huge topic in beta and it was discussed for weeks. What we have now is a final version of a few implementations I think.

[Rolfski]

Camping sucks, in every other shooter it's considered cheap. But in Planetside there are spots covered in shadow, spots with a perfect camoflauge backdrop behind you. As an Infiltrator I camp constantly, the whole point of their class is gaining the advantage through stealth, and I love taking advantage of pissed off people who just keep charging the same area over and over.


I fully acknowledge the amount of information that comes through a proper kill cam showing a recording of the death either through the enemy's eyes or in 3rd person around him. But Planetside 2 is the ONLY MMO and FPS...a lot of people don't understand how normal FPS mechanics can hurt the MMO part. With a kill cam every single strategy would be revealed. You'd know where every sniper was hiding, how far every soldier was from you when he killed you, how many of his team where around him when he did it, you could even see bonus information like a Sunderer in the background behind a rock you couldn't see from your angle. My point is this isn't really a First Person Shooter, it's a First Person Wargame. It's an MMO, it takes navigation, exploration, and coordination to get your intel here.


You're over-romanticizing MMO and stealth play. This is not really a traditional MMO with beautiful hidden secrets to explore that kill cam would brutally uncover. It's just a FPS with advanced levelling where kill-cam reveals skill, farming tactics and hiding spots, which is all a good thing.
Revealing skill doesn't mean you can copy it.
Revealing tactics equals the playing field somewhat, which is very badly needed in this game, plus it prevents farming somewhat.
Revealing hiding spots is a good thing as well because this game has literally millions of them, almost impossible to come by for new players if they have to discover these all on their own.
And in case it reveals a Sunderer, guess what? Next time make sure to don't be an idiot and shoot in front of a Sunderer. Btw I think Sunderers should have cloak but that's a whole different discussion.

This whole notice of kill-cam not allowing you to play stealthy and camp I just don't buy. There are a million places to hide and camp from, just move on to the next spot after shooting someone, which is something you should probably be doing in the first place if you want to play it safe, kill-cam or not.

[Carbon Copied]

Kill cam isn't needed if people are more aware of their surroundings: if I'm shot or moving across open ground I tend to think to myself "where would I be?" and 9 times out of 10 where I would be someone is or has tried their luck from; if they're not then it doesn't change anything because I've already checked a potential spot.

That aside though in a game with lasers, tracers and vapour trails do you really need that much more of a visual cue where you're getting shot from? There's visual cues and there's letting the game play itself for you with a big fat /engageeasymode; kill cam is the latter of the two..

[Taramafor]

And in case it reveals a Sunderer, guess what? Next time make sure to don't be an idiot and shoot in front of a Sunderer. Btw I think Sunderers should have cloak but that's a whole different discussion.


One flaw with your logic. The net's full of idiots. And newer people will defiantly be just that 'till they know better.

Sun hides behind rock. Sun deploys. New player opens fire from behind said rock alerting the enemy to his position. Now without killcam, that new person could move and get killed somewhere else and not have the sun detected. With killcam people would know.

So no. No killcam. Period. I've played enough games with that. Believe it or not stealth (and killing stealthy) is a (minor) part of the game and is a tactic like any other.

Person A kills from high angle. Person B sees on killcam. Person A had a nice drop on the enemy 'till then. Person A gets raped and dies.

Or how about getting shot by a tank and then seeing exactly where it is when you didn't see it? I don't see why the driver should be punished for driving good enough to not be seen and kill me (which has happened). You're not in a zerg 24/7 and the times that you're out of one a killcam will certainty be unfair for both sides. It would take away the fun factor of smaller engagements. Say what you will but smaller fights can and do happens and are no less fun (and for that matter not as difficult as larger fights most of the time which helps newer players).

I'm all for giving newer players a helping hand but this is not the way to do it. We have a VR. Let's use it for more then target practice. Have cover highlighted and what covering fire can do. Point out good vantage points and places of high cover where one can get a drop on an enemy. That kind of thing. Only by having these things pointed out can newer people get better. I've learned it myself as well as from other people.

In the end it's up to us, the players, how to help other players. I've seen elites kill of games with their noob none-friendly attitude. I've also seen games work out better because, guess what, people weren't being dicks and were actually helping each other and talking to each other without the noob/troll/insulting banter that goes on in other games. It's easy to try and find a quick fix but in the end we have to put in the effort for ourselves and for others to get the most out of this game.

A better approach would be to do more in VR then just shoot stuff. I've complained myself that there's no part that covers hacking or even what to hack which almost made me neglect infiltrator (no killcam will fix that). Nor are there spots pointed out which could be used for cover or how covering fire can be used. Nor is there a part for turrets, deployed or not (which ties in to covering fire nicely).

But this game is still being improved. Hopefully VR will improve and therefor help the newer players. What's really needed is all of this in VR and not just when a new character is made. It should be able to be accessed at any time.

[Baneblade]

The only good thing that a kill cam can bring is a slightly easier time of detecting hacking players.

And that is not worth the drawbacks.

[PredatorFour]

If they ever did bring this in (which would be absolutely stupid imo) then they should bring it in as an implant and make people sacrifice a really good alternative implant for the sake of it.

[Maidere]

I'm for it, but not gonna happen. Most of the people think that sniping from the cliff = being tactical.

[Taramafor]

I'm for it, but not gonna happen. Most of the people think that sniping from the cliff = being tactical.

If you die and they survive, it is.

I'm defiantly not a good sniper and I do get a touch annoyed when sniped from far away but they can touch me and I can't touch them because sniping's not my strong point. A tactic be definition is the ability to take advantage of a situation or to put the enemy at a disadvantage. Next you'll complain that engineer turrets aren't tactical because it's camping on a spot and giving them an unfair advantage.

And I don't see how a killcam would be tactical since it would be a pure game mechanic and certainty not realistic in any way in the warzone. It's cheap and it's lazy and more people would rage quid because of it if it's added.

However, while playing ghost recon future soldier a wonderful idea occurred to me. UAV drones. Have it for engineers only (or perhaps infiltrators as well) and you have an eye in the sky (of course, you can't do anything else while using the drone). And of course, it can only move so far before the signal is lost (to prevent overpowered spying). So basically, you get a tiny target and can see from really high up (so unless you're the best sniper on earth or a hacker the chances of it getting shot from far away are slim). You can't see behind rocks in the distance but you can see the terrain from a first/3rd person perspective. People can look around yet cover is still used as an advantage (unless seen coming out of it by the UAV). Also you should be able to spot with the drone, but defiantly no weapons on it. That would be op.

[Phantomdestiny]

hey people use silencer so you know people DO NOT detect them maybe to use tactics ? ; i don't care how much people will whine about weapons being OP this is not freaking call of duty.

[Rolfski]

One flaw with your logic. The net's full of idiots. And newer people will defiantly be just that 'till they know better. It's a valid point and that's why I'm in favour of making a Sunderer more idiot-proof by giving it cloak abilities. I consider Sunderers way too vulnerable atm (especially since the still OP Harasser) and therefore cloaking abilities wouldn't make it unbalanced.


Person A kills from high angle. Person B sees on killcam. Person A had a nice drop on the enemy 'till then. Person A gets raped and dies.
This is exactly the mechanic this game badly needs. You can have a drop on your enemy for one time only. After that, you move to your next camping position. If you however choose the farming route and stay, it becomes a risk vs reward story where every additional kill increases the risk of you being hunted and taken out: So no more 50+ farm kill streaks in a Prowler or Harasser.

It would take away the fun factor of smaller engagements. Say what you will but smaller fights can and do happens and are no less fun. I don't see how this would take out the fun factor in smaller engagements. If anything, it would make these small battles more mobile and therefore probably more exciting. You pop out, make a kill, move to the next location and repeat. Smaller engagements would probably be a way more dynamic affair with factions actively manoeuvring all the time to get a drop on the enemy.

We have a VR. Let's use it for more then target practice.
Here I agree. VR drastically needs to step up in its potential to prepare for real war: Moving targets, being able to pull other factions only your outfit mates can take down, etc.
By no way this is sufficient though to tone down the horrible farming mechanics in this game and the ever increasing skill gap.

In the end it's up to us, the players, how to help other players. Here I agree too and SOE should provides us tools to do that.
But the thing is that 80% of the new players probably just start as a lone wolf, expecting some instant BF3-like game play, get absolutely raped and never return again. The game in itself needs to have the mechanisms to encourage people to improve. Something the current death screen completely fails to do.

[Taramafor]

The main problem I see is that sometimes you HAVE to camp to defend points A B and C. Those points inside buildings have to be camped when there's more enemy out there then there is of you inside the building. The only alternative is being outside and exposed.

For example, one time we were fighting NC and Vanu at an air tower. The Vanu had entrenched themselves at a point in a small building and they held it for a good while.

Our only real tactic at that point was to use LA to get on the roof and take them by surprise. With kill cam you take away that surprise once the first shot is fired. You see EXACTLY how many people are on the roof.

It's no better for the Vanu either. Once someone inside the building shoots you get a good view at the inside and can see any turrets that haven't been seen yet or how many maxes there might be or where mines might be.

Maneuverability is an important tactic. But so is digging in. You can't punish one and favor the other or the game becomes unbalanced.

[Rolfski]

Manoeuvrability is an important tactic. But so is digging in. You can't punish one and favor the other or the game becomes unbalanced.Kill-cam doesn't change the digging in mechanic in any negative way. It only provides info to newer payers on how points are typically defended. As an experienced squad charging in, you already know what to expect. You can actually use this kill-cam mechanic to your advantage, as both attacker and defender, by going a completely unexpected route.

[Memeotis]

Maybe have a kill-cam from level 1-15? After which it disables permanently.

[Ghoest9]

You're over-romanticizing MMO and stealth play. This is not really a traditional MMO with beautiful hidden secrets to explore that kill cam would brutally uncover. It's just a FPS with advanced levelling where kill-cam reveals skill, farming tactics and hiding spots, which is all a good thing.
Revealing skill doesn't mean you can copy it.
Revealing tactics equals the playing field somewhat, which is very badly needed in this game, plus it prevents farming somewhat.
Revealing hiding spots is a good thing as well because this game has literally millions of them, almost impossible to come by for new players if they have to discover these all on their own.
And in case it reveals a Sunderer, guess what? Next time make sure to don't be an idiot and shoot in front of a Sunderer. Btw I think Sunderers should have cloak but that's a whole different discussion.

This whole notice of kill-cam not allowing you to play stealthy and camp I just don't buy. There are a million places to hide and camp from, just move on to the next spot after shooting someone, which is something you should probably be doing in the first place if you want to play it safe, kill-cam or not.


No - he like most people here appreciates why this game isnt COD.

You dont.


You are asking for a competely differnt game - I think the issue is you.

[Methonius]

Why do I get the feeling that Rolfski had some friends try the game and they got roflstomped and complained about no killcam.

[Taramafor]

Kill-cam doesn't change the digging in mechanic in any negative way. It only provides info to newer payers on how points are typically defended. As an experienced squad charging in, you already know what to expect. You can actually use this kill-cam mechanic to your advantage, as both attacker and defender, by going a completely unexpected route.

There's a difference between expecting and knowing.

[Edfishy]

I've wondered about just having the spinnable enemy character model (while remaining 'pinned') replay the last 5 seconds of movements that lead to your demise.

So you cannot see *where* he was, but you might be able to see what he was doing. "Oh he was crouched and waiting for me apparently before he came out threw some C4 on me!".

[Rolfski]

TBH, I expected to be completely verbally slaughtered at this point but I've yet to see a decent argument against this highly unpopular point of view.

[Sledgecrushr]

Like earlier posted, I would like the death cam to turn the direction that you were killed from. It doesnt need the up close view, or even see your killer if they are well concealed. A ps2 kill cam should give a little help in which direction you were killed. But not totally give your opponents position away.

[PredatorFour]

Why o why do we need this ?? you say to help new players against camping ? thats ridiculous in a game the size of this and considering how open it is. Any 'camper' worth their salt would of moved position anyway by the time the 'noob' got back to the same point.

[Wahooo]

I wasn't there in alpha but I doubt if kill-cam ever got a fair chance in this game then. It's got a COD stigma all over it and of course we all know how cool it is to shite on COD.

OK, how about this, I will shit on Kill Cam NOT because it is cool to shit on COD, BUT because the kill cam is one of the reasons I DO SHIT ON COD. They're bad and dumb down the game that fucking simple.

Whatever little tiny amount of help this could be to newbs who I guess must be incapable of learning how to develop awareness and need this kind of crutch, is FAR surpassed by the massive increase in knowledge that directly equals power that a kill cam gives to an already good player. That same kill cam you think is good for new players is going to get them wrecked by better players.

Hell a huge part of PS1's limited death cam (3rd person panning around your body) was to sacrifice one guy to run into a Gen hold or cap point to relay info on how many and what kind of troops are in there. Who gets more out of that kind of thing? A single new player that just took a WTF rocket to the face or the experienced organized squad?

[Emperor Newt]

This becomes even worse because farming is still by far the most game ruining mechanic in the game.
True. But sadly this is not going away until progression is no longer tied to kills. But I doubt they will take the time to redesign the whole cert gain mechanic this "late" into the lifecycle. So farming, sadly, is most likely going to stay.

[Rolfski]

Why o why do we need this ?? you say to help new players against camping ? thats ridiculous in a game the size of this and considering how open it is. Any 'camper' worth their salt would of moved position anyway by the time the 'noob' got back to the same point.
So basically you're saying this game is already a doomed farm fest and SOE should declare this game as lost forever?

[GreyFrog]

Farming is a problem that Kill Cam won't solve. It's a terrible mechanic in a game where tactics matter. Your opponent not knowing how or where you are killing them from is a major factor in holding points and capping bases.

Just because KC tells you where and what your opponent is doing won't stop the farming. Most farms are on spawn rooms, the guys in that spawn room know where the enemy is.

[Taramafor]

So basically you're saying this game is already a doomed farm fest and SOE should declare this game as lost forever?

So basically you're saying that the answer to zergs is a killcam?

You already admitted that a killcam will not change that in zergs.

Perhaps in smaller fights but why should every side be known where they are to the enemy if they find a good spot to get the drop and keep the enemy unaware of numbers in the area? A small squad can appear to be an army. Result of known numbers that appear to be more? Intimidation factor lost and other side storms in no longer afraid of being swarmed. It favors the attackers more then defenders and defending HAS to be done in this game at times.

If you want an idea of how many people there are in a building and want to know the locations then that's what the dart gun is for. Use it. Speaking of which, a killcam would make that less useful so another reason not to add it.

The way you argue your case is "look at who killed you. See their class. Know EXACTLY why you died" but we already get that. The only thing we don't see is the location and you want to be lazy and not make the effort to look for who killed you? Why not have a tank that automatically aims at the enemy while you're at it so you don't have to look around for armor?

[Ertwin]

I've wondered about just having the spinnable enemy character model (while remaining 'pinned') replay the last 5 seconds of movements that lead to your demise.

So you cannot see *where* he was, but you might be able to see what he was doing. "Oh he was crouched and waiting for me apparently before he came out threw some C4 on me!".

That's actually a decent idea that has none of the flaws of a kill cam.

[Timealude]

I dont see how adding a kill cam would help. You can die from pretty much anything in this game. If you get killed by someone with a shotgun, most likely they are moving and you couldnt have prevented it anyways.

[Ghoest9]

TBH, I expected to be completely verbally slaughtered at this point but I've yet to make a decent argument for this highly unpopular point of view.

I fixed that for you so that its truthful now.

[Wahooo]

We should also probably have the IFF's on all the time rather than spotting. That would help new players. OH, we should also have the IFF indicators visible through walls that would also help new players. OH OH OH... also the hit arc that we already have, should turn yellow if an enemy's gun is pointed at you.

Yeah... a little trolling but as far as i'm concerned not any different than kill cams.

[BlaxicanX]

Kill-cams aren't necessary because this isn't an arena shooter where killing individual people matters. You're walking down the road, your head explodes, the kill-cam shows that the guy who shot you is hiding in the cliffs above. Okay. Who cares? He's just one guy out of a hundred enemies in that base. You won't even have time to get a vendetta against that guy because you'll be too busy getting killed by his 50 allies who are right in your face. Even if you did have the time to hunt this lone camper, the chances are that he'll have either moved or have been killed by YOUR 50 allies by the the time you've respawned anyway. It's hard to be "sneaky" in planetside because 1. almost all of your shots are tracers, meaning any shot you make is going to be seen by 20 enemies , and 2. every shot you make paints you on the radar. So if you cap one guy from a distance, congratulations, there's three enemy infiltrators aiming at you now.

It's a pointless mechanic for this game.

[Rolfski]

Maybe have a kill-cam from level 1-15? After which it disables permanently.I could actually live with this idea as a compromise. I would make it level 1-20 though (or one weekend of intensive playing). The game still needs a way better death screen for everybody though. I personally liked the BF3 screen.


Farming is a problem that Kill Cam won't solve. Camping is a problem that Kill Cam won't solve.

For farming however, it becomes a risk vs reward game. You can rack up kills from your Prowler on that hill, overlooking that enemy Sunderer, but you know that if you don't stay mobile and move to another camping spot, you're going to be hunted down.

Kill-cams aren't necessary because this isn't an arena shooter where killing individual people matters. You're walking down the road, your head explodes, the kill-cam shows that the guy who shot you is hiding in the cliffs above. Okay. Who cares? He's just one guy out of a hundred enemies in that base. You won't even have time to get a vendetta against that guy because you'll be too busy getting killed by his 50 allies who are right in your face. Even if you did have the time to hunt this lone camper, the chances are that he'll have either moved or have been killed by YOUR 50 allies by the the time you've respawned anyway. It's hard to be "sneaky" in planetside because 1. almost all of your shots are tracers, meaning any shot you make is going to be seen by 20 enemies , and 2. every shot you make paints you on the radar. So if you cap one guy from a distance, congratulations, there's three enemy infiltrators aiming at you now.

It's a pointless mechanic for this game.
Kill-Cam is not meant as a personal vendetta machine because in that case you are correct. Kill-cam is meant as a personal awareness and feedback tool, giving you answers on those typical "What the hell killed me?" - situations, so you can learn from your mistakes. And for that, it is extremely useful.

So basically you're saying that the answer to zergs is a killcam? I never mentioned zergs.

I mentioned kill-cam as a tool:

to bridge the ever increasing skill gap, allowing players to learn from enemy:

techniques
tactics
positioning

to discourage farming

As a bonus, it helps against cheaters as well.


Perhaps in smaller fights but why should every side be known where they are to the enemy if they find a good spot to get the drop and keep the enemy unaware of numbers in the area? A small squad can appear to be an army. Result of known numbers that appear to be more? Intimidation factor lost and other side storms in no longer afraid of being swarmed. It favors the attackers more then defenders and defending HAS to be done in this game at times.

Bogus arguments, seriously. Everybody can already look at the map and get an estimation about how many enemies are in an area. Kill-cam won't change that.


If you want an idea of how many people there are in a building and want to know the locations then that's what the dart gun is for. Use it. Speaking of which, a killcam would make that less useful so another reason not to add it. Not true. Kill-cam is a time stamp, after which the enemy has probably already moved. A dart gun however, sensors player movement which is a whole lot different. Btw, if you want to stay undetected as a team in a building, you should not be shooting from that building in the first place.


The way you argue your case is "look at who killed you. See their class. Know EXACTLY why you died" but we already get that. The only thing we don't see is the location and you want to be lazy and not make the effort to look for who killed you?
Kill-cam is not about looking for who killed you. As said above, it's pointless as a personal vendetta machine. It's about giving away positions so you learn about camping spots and force the enemy to move to another camping spot after a kill.

[Taramafor]

I never mentioned zergs.

"farm fest" implies zergs does it not?

Bogus arguments, seriously. Everybody can already look at the map and get an estimation about how many enemies are in an area. Kill-cam won't change that.

As I said before, there's a difference between an estimation and constantly knowing. All you got to do with a kill cam is send someone into the building to know what's inside and where.

Not true. Kill-cam is a time stamp, after which the enemy has probably already moved. A dart gun however, sensors player movement which is a whole lot different. Btw, if you want to stay undetected as a team in a building, you should not be shooting from that building in the first place.

See above. Only instead of once it's used over and over and over. Never worry about dart gun ammo again.

Kill-cam is not about looking for who killed you. As said above, it's pointless as a personal vendetta machine. It's about giving away positions so you learn about camping spots and force the enemy to move to another camping spot after a kill.

Your only argument so far is to discourage sniping. You seem to think that adding kill cam will make them move. It won't. They're likely already moving anyway (if not in a tower). Besides, anyone with half a brain knows good sniping spots. Behind cover or high up, preferably both. Is it really so difficult for new players to understand that that we need to add a kill cam?

Other then knowing the location of someone that sniped you, what does kill cam have to offer? You got shot down by aircraft? Well, guess you didn't look up. Tank round? Obviously on the ground nearby somewhere. No wait, with kill cam I can see it's just gone behind that rock and I hadn't seen it when it fired. I now know where to flank the bugger.

Yea, I don't see this working.

[Wahooo]

Kill-cam is not about looking for who killed you. As said above, it's pointless as a personal vendetta machine. It's about giving away positions so you learn about camping spots and force the enemy to move to another camping spot after a kill.

What? You started saying it was as a tool for new players, but here it is what you are REALLY talking about is that you don't like a play style and would like to punish those players.

Slow clap...

time to move on.

[Canaris]

I think bro as you can see from the cross sample of players here on PS-U the killcam ain't popular and wouldn't get a very warm reception if this mini tsunami of hate is anything to go by ;)

Got to say I'm not a fan of them either and I was rather vocal in their removal during development. I just don't think they benefit a game like PS2.

[Shamrock]

I'm totally against the idea of kill cams, but I would welcome a temporary one from level 1 to 10 so new players would have a slight crutch helping them transition into the game.

[Rolfski]

"farm fest" implies zergs does it not?
Farming is not the same as zerging, you should know that by now.


As I said before, there's a difference between an estimation and constantly knowing. All you got to do with a kill cam is send someone into the building to know what's inside and where. Knowing exactly what's inside a building you can already do without a kill-cam: Just go to a building and look inside.


See above. Only instead of once it's used over and over and over. Never worry about dart gun ammo again.For that you need to keep dying again and again but here you actually do have a point for a possible exploit with a kill-cam. You could have your team mate constantly heal while you die over and over again to constantly give situational updates.

Not sure if that would be a game breaker though. Don't forget that UAV's are already in the making, which do exactly the same without the cumbersome dying.

Also, there are many ways to implement kill-cams. Everybody is assuming in this discussion that a kill-cam would completely give a way the surroundings of an enemy that shot you, revealing Sunderers, numbers of enemy in a building, etc. etc. This doesn't need to be the case. You can implement a kill-cam in a way that it only reveals the single person shooting.


Your only argument so far is to discourage sniping.
My argument is to discourage farming which is not the same as sniping as you know


You seem to think that adding kill cam will make them move. It won't. They're likely already moving anyway (if not in a tower). Besides, anyone with half a brain knows good sniping spots. Behind cover or high up, preferably both. Is it really so difficult for new players to understand that that we need to add a kill cam?

Other then knowing the location of someone that sniped you, what does kill cam have to offer? You got shot down by aircraft? Well, guess you didn't look up. Tank round? Obviously on the ground nearby somewhere. No wait, with kill cam I can see it's just gone behind that rock and I hadn't seen it when it fired. I now know where to flank the bugger.

You make it all sound like it's dead easy to figure out what and how you got killed but many times it's really not, especially as a new player. This game is too chaotic and vertical for that.

What? You started saying it was as a tool for new players, but here it is what you are REALLY talking about is that you don't like a play style and would like to punish those players.
Discouraging farming is a good thing in my book but other than that kill-cam is not about punishing play styles. You can still farm whatever you want, only now there's a risk attached to it.


I think bro as you can see from the cross sample of players here on PS-U the killcam ain't popular and wouldn't get a very warm reception if this mini tsunami of hate is anything to go by ;)
I wasn't expecting to win a popularity contest here.

Going to hardcore fps forum and proposing a newbie friendly COD feature is like praying for Jesus in a mosque. That doesn't mean we should steer away from the issue that this game is becoming ever more newbie unfriendly and that this is a problem for hardcore players as well.

[Gatekeeper]

I'm in favour of some form of kill cam overall. So, I've tried to summarise common objections to kill cams below, and then provide some counter-arguments, or ways of minimising these problems:

1) It would prevent snipers being effective by revealing their location.

As people have already pointed out at length in this thread, experienced players tend to have good situational awareness, and often being killed by a sniper (or seeing a team-mate die to one) is enough to give away the sniper's rough position. That doesn't make sniping obsolete, because the important part is getting the shot. After that, maybe you displace, maybe you just rely on the battlefield being too busy/dangerous for them to come get you, or maybe you just bet that you (or your buddies) will kill them if they do. Or maybe you're just somewhere they can't get to. Whatever.

The point being that snipers are never really completely hidden after they fire their first shot, and if the kill-cam is implemented in a careful way (revealing rough direction the shot came from, for example - rather than exact position) then it would help new players know where death is coming from, but wouldn't really change much else.

2) It would reveal exact numbers and disposition of enemy forces, especially at key locations like AMS Sunderers, choke-points or capture points.

Instead of a kill-cam that shows the exact position and surroundings of your killer, we could have a system where the camera just rotates towards them (perhaps with a small zoom), or maybe a 'victim cam' that shows you your last few seconds of life in slow-mo, and gives you a chance to see the shots coming in, or the mine you stepped on. Maybe both? Maybe an option? (which would let people just turn it off if they find it annoying).

Point is, if there's a problem with traditional kill-cams, that doesn't mean we can't add something to help new players learn the ropes.

3) As a veteran, I don't need a kill cam.

Although veterans would benefit less from a kill-cam, this isn't really an argument against them. If you can be found by veterans anyway, but new players will fall prey to you over and over, then all you're really doing is preying on the weak - and making their experience with the game a hell of a lot less fun in the process.

Is this the community we want to be? A bunch of veterans hiding in hard-to-find nooks, farming noobs and chuckling to ourselves about how clever we are as we drive them to other games?

4) It would reduce the game's skill ceiling.

While situational awareness and stealth are key skills in PS2, this wouldn't eliminate them (especially if the kill-cam is present in some limited form, as suggested above). Knowing (roughly) where the enemy was after you die is a world away from spotting them before they kill you.

Also, forcing ambushers and campers to displace or defend themselves more often just makes these more challenging, skilful tactics for veterans to employ. And doesn't it make sense for the skill burden to rest with us, rather than with new players?

5) The game is so easy to learn that there's simply no need to help new players.

If you think that, you're kidding yourself. Even if you found it easy to learn, a lot of players really don't. PS2 is a complicated game - try talking a new player through it some time, and you'll probably see what I mean. As veterans we should be finding ways of bringing new players in to the game, helping them to learn it and encouraging them to stay. Being elitist about it is ultimately self-defeating.

6) The game needs veteran players more than it needs new players, so helping new players at the expense of veterans is a bad idea.

We're all here because we came through those early battles and kept going, so we've all learned how the game works and we don't need help any more. But for every veteran PS2 player, there are several who tried it and found it confusing and frustrating and ultimately gave up. As we saw in PS1, whittling the population down little by little to an ultra-elite hard-core of veterans is not good for the game. We need fresh blood! Every multi-player game does.

Sure, lets not make changes that will drive off veterans in droves - but if we can come up with a compromise that makes the game less intimidating/frustrating for new players without ruining things for vets, then that's got to be a good idea.

tl;dr - Helping new players is good for everyone, so let's come up with a compromise solution that helps new players but doesn't ruin the game for vets.

[PredatorFour]

Camping is a problem that Kill Cam won't solve.



Are you for real ?????? Saying camping is a problem in an arena shooter i can perfectly understand but in a shooter where there is objectives on a massive scale?? It's insane to say camping is a problem in planetside!

"oh look at them campers holding the objective! We need to change that!" ..or
"look at them campers holding that bottleneck stopping our massive TR zerg from going through!"

It's like going back in time and assaulting a castle...."stop camping the walls we can't get in!"

Like someone said earlier this is a troll thread, i'm out! :groovy::groovy:

[Sunrock]

6) The game needs veteran players more than it needs new players, so helping new players at the expense of veterans is a bad idea.


I truly wish more people realized this.

Besides the transition from noob to veteran is not that hard and goes very fast if people better understood the value of joining established Outfits in the game. So if any one whats to do something to help the noobs help them organize. No game mech in the world can be better then players helping players to learn the game.

Are you for real ?????? Saying camping is a problem in an arena shooter i can perfectly understand but in a shooter where there is objectives on a massive scale?? It's insane to say camping is a problem in planetside!

"oh look at them campers holding the objective! We need to change that!" ..or
"look at them campers holding that bottleneck stopping our massive TR zerg from going through!"

It's like going back in time and assaulting a castle...."stop camping the walls we can't get in!"

Like someone said earlier this is a troll thread, i'm out! :groovy::groovy:

Yea those that seriously QQ over campers in PS2 have no fucking clue what they are talking about. I even wonder if any one can talk about sad topic with a strait face.

PS: Every game is not for every one. If we try to make every game likable by every one we will just end up making games that no one likes. So keep the kill-cam out of PS2 because we who play it does not like it and the reality is that value of it is very small to newbs anway.

[Roderick]

I have never been a supporter of the kill cam. It always reveals more than it ever should and just takes the "covert" experience out of an FPS game.

[Dragonskin]

This game needs kill cams as badly as it needs aimbot hackers.

[Angrytortoise]

Kill-Cam is a horrible idea, put plainly players should not be rewarded for having poor situational awareness. The "lets remove an aspect of combat for the benefit of new player adjustment" is just a bad line of thought; you could easily replace "kill-cam" with something like "autoaim" following that line of reasoning.

Besides you already have visual indicators as to where your being fired upon from via tracer fire/sound, and damage visual indication on your screen (red circle fragment damage indicator when you get hit which is common place in your vanilla shooter and anyone who's ever played a round of CoD should be familiar with). All the tools are there to be utilized; no point replacing them with an unnecessary crutch that removes or at least blatantly hampers legitimate tactical options in the game.

The only way kill cams would have a positive impact would be on a time delayed release where you could analyze your deaths after the fact, and for the lols factor on retarded deaths. somewhere between an hour and a day delayed so it doesn't give the viewer a tactical advantage in the immediate but honestly don't really think it's needed.

[Ertwin]

The only way kill cams would have a positive impact would be on a time delayed release where you could analyze your deaths after the fact, and for the lols factor on retarded deaths. somewhere between an hour and a day delayed so it doesn't give the viewer a tactical advantage in the immediate but honestly don't really think it's needed.

That would actually be really cool. It would cover all the reasons Rolfski has for wanting a kill cam, but with none of the downsides.

[Chaff]

.
If you want Killcam feedback. Perhaps it can be provided in an after-the-fact type manner....like two posts prior mentioned.....

....go to VR, sit in a "virtual theatre (with pop corn ?) and watch you previous death(s) since you logged on as your current character. Perhpas require the player to stay in VR another 5 minutes to prevent taking advantage of any killcam info. While in VR "Killcam Theatre", you are unable to access any voice, keyboard, communication....

Would something along this line work for the commuinity ?

...perhpas grant players under BR10 some minor-to-modest XP while watching ? Hell, a BR 100 could watch Killcam footage, but only as a learning tool.
.

[RSphil]

thats a no from me for kill cams. in a game where tactics are needed a kill cam will make tactics null and void. imho kill cams have no place in Planetside 2.

[Sunrock]

That would actually be really cool. It would cover all the reasons Rolfski has for wanting a kill cam, but with none of the downsides.

It would but it would mean SOE needs to pay for allot of new servers to store that info on too.... So I don't think it's realistic.

[Hamma]

Simple response from me: No.

We don't need it, it was in early on and the response was overwhelmingly negative so they removed it before we even played the game. I think that decision was for the best.

[Rolfski]

Are you for real ?????? Saying camping is a problem in an arena shooter i can perfectly understand but in a shooter where there is objectives on a massive scale?? It's insane to say camping is a problem in planetside!
You're right, camping is not a problem in this game until it becomes farming. This is the kind of camping I was referring to.

I have never been a supporter of the kill cam. It always reveals more than it ever should and just takes the "covert" experience out of an FPS game. As said above, there's a limit you can make to what a kill-cam can reveal and what for you as a veteran feels "covert" can just be a horrible frustrating experience for a newer player.

Kill-Cam is a horrible idea, put plainly players should not be rewarded for having poor situational awareness. The "lets remove an aspect of combat for the benefit of new player adjustment" is just a bad line of thought; you could easily replace "kill-cam" with something like "autoaim" following that line of reasoning.

Besides you already have visual indicators as to where your being fired upon from via tracer fire/sound, and damage visual indication on your screen (red circle fragment damage indicator when you get hit which is common place in your vanilla shooter and anyone who's ever played a round of CoD should be familiar with). All the tools are there to be utilized; no point replacing them with an unnecessary crutch that removes or at least blatantly hampers legitimate tactical options in the game.
You said it yourself, the game has already many artificial elements that aid you. Kill-cam is just another element in that row, which really makes me think why people hyper-react so much on this one.
What made kill-cam in COD such a traumatizing experience that people are so raging about it? For me personally, it was a great feature in COD that really improved my game play. It never destroyed my tactical play, never felt to me that I couldn't go stealth, never gave me the feeling it revealed my "secrets". If anything, it made me stay more mobile, which is not a bad thing.


The only way kill cams would have a positive impact would be on a time delayed release where you could analyze your deaths after the fact, and for the lols factor on retarded deaths. somewhere between an hour and a day delayed so it doesn't give the viewer a tactical advantage in the immediate but honestly don't really think it's needed.
I have been thinking about this idea as well. Black Ops 2 has a pretty nifty recording and camera feature that you can use to make your own cool, cinematic videos as well as analyzing your game play.

Problem is that the average, casual player probably doesn't bother to dive into a feature like this. He just gives this game a try, gets farmed all the time by hardcore vets that want this game become even more hardcore and quits in frustration.

[Wahooo]

WHO THE HELL ARE THE PLAYERS YOU ARE TRYING TO HELP AND WHY DO THEY MATTER?


Problem is that the average, casual player probably doesn't bother to dive into a feature like this. He just gives this game a try, gets farmed all the time by hardcore vets that want this game become even more hardcore and quits in frustration.

^^^^^
If they can't be arsed to use a feature to help them learn, and obviously dont' have the mental capacity to figure out how to stand back and watch for the massive bright tracers after they, or someone around them died, why do they deserve to be spoon fed such critical information?

Farming ok, camping ok... camping to farm not ok? You are making no sense. As a sniper I rely on the ability to sometimes get to a good spot where I CAN camp... if it is a good spot then I will be farming, but farming with a purpose. You know killing heavies with RL so my tanks are ok, killing snipers so my heavies with RL stay alive and shoot their tanks. Sometimes I go to great lengths to get to these spots and do what I can to try and stay hidden and keep people guessing. I play smart and do what I can to shoot first anyone I think might have the ability to find me... BEFORE they find me. To think my position is compromised the first time I kill someone? No thank you not for me.

For the players that REALLY need this as a feature as much as you want to say they do? I can't see them gaining as much as the players that don't need it to whom this type of things becomes a MAJOR advantage.

[Mastachief]

Wow this thread is still going and the op still has his fingers in his ears.

The players don't want or need it.

This was a purely self serving thread by a frustrated person who dies so much that he is angry he cannot figure out why he is dieing. Camp this camp that camp everything. This is planetside 2 the aim of the game is to camp... Territory capture and defence. Stop being butthurt and learn to play.

I can assure you that good players would find the killcam far more useful than newbies as a learn tool.

Step 1: Sacrificial lamb
Step2: x y z and c are medics they are in corners y u and i. Maxes are c g and h.
Step3: Conc nade in corne 1 and 2, LULZ, room clear point secured.

No matter what you do people that lack the skills required for this game will suck at it forever, why shaft everyone for scrubs that wont be staying around anyhow.

You are wrong give it up already you are just pissing people off

[Taramafor]

Let's get one thing clear. What you call "farming" is also known as a "kill zone". Solution? Don't be in the kill zone.

Of course if that kill zone is an air tower it does mean you're somewhat stuck but if you get bogged down by sniper fire then guess what, that makes the sniper useful. Add a killcam and snipers will snipe less because of that because their positions will always be known. Finding a good sniping spot and then getting to it can be a chore and the position shouldn't be given away to the enemy. If you're getting sniped, respawn, use cover and look around for high places. Chances are you see the sniper on a cliff and he's aiming at you right now. But it takes you at least 2 lives to do it (perhaps more but you WILL see the enemy snipers if you bother to LOOK).

What you want is to skip all of that and spoon feed people sniper locations. No. Thanks. And I say that as a bad sniper that's been forced to use my eyes to look out for them.

[Helwyr]

No!

And if you want my reasons against Kill Cams go look up the threads way back before launch when this terrible idea of Kill Cams was buried 6 feet under, decapitated, and staked through the heart. If that wasn't enough to see this monster never rise again you can see from this thread we're all waiting up top with gasoline just to be sure.

[Angrytortoise]

lol it's a good thing I get bored at the office. incoming wall of text haha.



You said it yourself, the game has already many artificial elements that aid you. Kill-cam is just another element in that row, which really makes me think why people hyper-react so much on this one.
What made kill-cam in COD such a traumatizing experience that people are so raging about it? For me personally, it was a great feature in COD that really improved my game play. It never destroyed my tactical play, never felt to me that I couldn't go stealth, never gave me the feeling it revealed my "secrets". If anything, it made me stay more mobile, which is not a bad thing.


Kill Camera is not just another "artificial element" akin to tracer fire or HUD damage indicators. The only one of the examples that I listed which I'd even really drop in the category of artificial interface is the damage indicators on your HUD but really that's just to compensate for the games inability to provide you the sensory information of where your getting shot. It has a clear purpose of filling the role of identifying an attacker via a physical indicator of getting hit, something you would be able to do in real life which you can't do in a videogame (ie ouch I got shot in the back of the leg so he fired from behind me) the game can't make me feel the ouch so it gives me the display; these are functions essential for simulating sensory information. a kill-cam doesn't add to sensory immersion it takes away from it.

Secondly, I don't really see how this is hyper/over reacting to the concept of kill-cams, a lot of people have given logical arguments why they think it's a bad idea; but I havn't seen too many people getting emotional over it or anything lol. It's not that they were mentally scarred by playing games with killcams, it's simply that they don't believe it belongs in Planetside and while you may have enjoyed the kill cam function and never found that it inhibited your gameplay experience doesn't mean that it doesn't affect others (hell I used to play a ton of CoD and I can think of thousands of times where I got an easy kill on an opponent who had just caught me by surprise because I saw where he was on the killcam); it's a fact people play differently and for different reasons; the kill cam is a feature that has a notable negative impact on some of these players while bringing very little in the way of necessary depth.

Finally you have to look at how it would affect competitive play; I mean to start with you have a feature that punishes a player for winning an engagement which in of itself is derp, and then you have removing tactical positioning and ambush techniques. In a game like Call of Duty where you're restricted to a self-contained 20ish minute match with sporadic spawn locations the gameplay is by necessity much more hectic and altering, your team of 6-9 players is almost never holding a static front, even at the pro level it's pretty much just a giant shitshow half the time so you're constantly relocating because the enemy spawns are constantly adjusting, it actively/intrinsically promotes a close quarters run & gun playstyle.

Planetside is a whole different ball game where you regularly have large static fronts where battles can last hours along a front that may only shift 50 meters from where it began and it has much deeper/long term strategic goals as well as room for varied styles of gameplay. Should a sniper who picks off some nosey infantry getting too close to a key unscouted sunderer position be a waste of time because he could see the sunderer on his screen? Kinda lame in my opinion.

As for you concern about new players.. Well I can understand them being confused about strategic objectives, how to spawn vehicles, and general unfamiliarity with how to interface with the environment/where to go etc..sure..but a kill cam won't solve that. As for the actual combat...pretty damn basic to be honest, there's a red team, a blue team, and a purple team, you have a gun, when you shoot at stuff it gets hurt, if I see a hail of bullets coming from a hill at me I know somebody in a hill is shooting at me and I better get somewhere he cant see me, get sniped by someone you can't see..ok I know that's not a safe place to stand...that's all basic common sense lolol, if that's whats holding back the player base you're referring to it's not the games fault. I've personally introduced a few people to PS2 and while they might take a while to get used to the gunplay/objectives/interface there really wasn't that huge of a curve.

[Taramafor]

lol it's a good thing I get bored at the office. incoming wall of text haha.



Kill Camera is not just another "artificial element" akin to tracer fire or HUD damage indicators. The only one of the examples that I listed which I'd even really drop in the category of artificial interface is the damage indicators on your HUD but really that's just to compensate for the games inability to provide you the sensory information of where your getting shot. It has a clear purpose of filling the role of identifying an attacker via a physical indicator of getting hit, something you would be able to do in real life which you can't do in a videogame (ie ouch I got shot in the back of the leg so he fired from behind me) the game can't make me feel the ouch so it gives me the display; these are functions essential for simulating sensory information. a kill-cam doesn't add to sensory immersion it takes away from it.

Secondly, I don't really see how this is hyper/over reacting to the concept of kill-cams, a lot of people have given logical arguments why they think it's a bad idea; but I havn't seen too many people getting emotional over it or anything lol. It's not that they were mentally scarred by playing games with killcams, it's simply that they don't believe it belongs in Planetside and while you may have enjoyed the kill cam function and never found that it inhibited your gameplay experience doesn't mean that it doesn't affect others (hell I used to play a ton of CoD and I can think of thousands of times where I got an easy kill on an opponent who had just caught me by surprise because I saw where he was on the killcam); it's a fact people play differently and for different reasons; the kill cam is a feature that has a notable negative impact on some of these players while bringing very little in the way of necessary depth.

Finally you have to look at how it would affect competitive play; I mean to start with you have a feature that punishes a player for winning an engagement which in of itself is derp, and then you have removing tactical positioning and ambush techniques. In a game like Call of Duty where you're restricted to a self-contained 20ish minute match with sporadic spawn locations the gameplay is by necessity much more hectic and altering, your team of 6-9 players is almost never holding a static front, even at the pro level it's pretty much just a giant shitshow half the time so you're constantly relocating because the enemy spawns are constantly adjusting, it actively/intrinsically promotes a close quarters run & gun playstyle.

Planetside is a whole different ball game where you regularly have large static fronts where battles can last hours along a front that may only shift 50 meters from where it began and it has much deeper/long term strategic goals as well as room for varied styles of gameplay. Should a sniper who picks off some nosey infantry getting too close to a key unscouted sunderer position be a waste of time because he could see the sunderer on his screen? Kinda lame in my opinion.

As for you concern about new players.. Well I can understand them being confused about strategic objectives, how to spawn vehicles, and general unfamiliarity with how to interface with the environment/where to go etc..sure..but a kill cam won't solve that. As for the actual combat...pretty damn basic to be honest, there's a red team, a blue team, and a purple team, you have a gun, when you shoot at stuff it gets hurt, if I see a hail of bullets coming from a hill at me I know somebody in a hill is shooting at me and I better get somewhere he cant see me, get sniped by someone you can't see..ok I know that's not a safe place to stand...that's all basic common sense lolol, if that's whats holding back the player base you're referring to it's not the games fault. I've personally introduced a few people to PS2 and while they might take a while to get used to the gunplay/objectives/interface there really wasn't that huge of a curve.

This. +infinity.

We get enough hand holding games and there's enough icons as it is (frankly, I'd like the option to disable some on my end). There's only so much hand holding that can be done before a game becomes less of a game and more of a show where all you end up doing is pushing a button for the next scene to play.

COD is NOT Planetside. Which would be why people here like to shit on it. One's a small squad that makes best use of maneuverability while the other makes use of a combination of maneuverability and digging in. Hence camping which is a tactic like any other. Somewhat cheap in games with smaller maps (COD for example) but with a map this big there's a lot of ground to cover. Try using other ground instead of going to the same spot where you're getting "farmed". Or in the case of a base, approach from another angel or with other people. One sniper can't beat a rush of 10+ troops. Which is why I say communication is key. And so is leadership. Make an effort to rally some people somewhere where there's trouble and they will follow most of the time.

[Mustakrakish]

I'm opposed to adding a kill-cam for many reasons.

First, there's the near-total destruction of stealth. I mean, let's think about this for a minute: any kind of ability that reveals enemy locations (e.g. Recon Dart, Proximity Radar) already requires hundreds of certs to be invested before it reaches usefulness. Adding something like kill-cam to the game does absolutely nothing to improve PS2's depth of gameplay or balance, and would instead undermine both of those things.

Second, PS2 isn't just an FPS: it's an MMO, too. Just like any other MMO, it has a learning curve and will require you to invest some time and (horror of horrors!) some thought into the game before you become good at it. Anyone expecting to jump into the game, learn everything there is to know in a day or two, and climb a mountain of pwned n00bcaeks straight to BR 100 will probably not enjoy PS2 enough to keep them interested anyway.

As far as learning the game and improving your skills goes, there are no substitutes for tutorials and the advice of other players. To me, it seems like kill-cam is just a shoddy attempt to sidestep the necessity of player interaction and compress the skill curve of the game.

If you want Killcam feedback. Perhaps it can be provided in an after-the-fact type manner....like two posts prior mentioned.....

....go to VR, sit in a "virtual theatre (with pop corn ?) and watch you previous death(s) since you logged on as your current character.

This, on the other hand, is an idea I could get behind.

[Dougnifico]

Ok...

I am indifferent to kill cams. There is only one constant for me. There needs to be a way to shut them off (such as a perk or implant). This allows snipers, cloakers, and all other affected parties to circumnavigate the extreme disadvantage this brings them. Other than that, kill cams really make no significant difference.

[Rolfski]

WHO THE HELL ARE THE PLAYERS YOU ARE TRYING TO HELP AND WHY DO THEY MATTER? Actually, these are the players that keep this game fresh and in development and prevent it from becoming a dreadful ghost-town for BR100's only: They are called New Players. You might start caring about them as well, unless you want this game to be dead within 2 years of course.

If they can't be arsed to use a feature to help them learn, and obviously dont' have the mental capacity to figure out how to stand back and watch for the massive bright tracers after they, or someone around them died, why do they deserve to be spoon fed such critical information? This elitist attitude against casual gamers that don't have the time to invest hundreds of hours in a game before getting the hang of it, is for sure the shortest route to a ghost town.

Farming ok, camping ok... camping to farm not ok? You are making no sense. Let me spell it out for you. Farming should be discouraged in it's current form: It's frustrating for new players and hardly teaches them anything, detracts from objective play and gives way to many rewards/certs with hardly any risks. If these conditions were to be fixed, farming shouldn't be an issue any more.

To think my position is compromised the first time I kill someone? No thank you not for me. Forcing you to stay relatively mobile might not play as bad as you think in a game that has a zillion camping possibilities.

I can't see them gaining as much as the players that don't need it to whom this type of things becomes a MAJOR advantage.
I see this argument a lot and it doesn't resemble my kill-cam experience. If anything, I've found myself skipping more frequently through kill-cam footage the better I became at a game. Over time, many kill-cam situations become instantly recognizable and doesn't require you to watch the whole footage.


You are wrong give it up already you are just pissing people off
If you lack the mental stability to stay in a constructive discussion, I suggest you stay away from it.

First, there's the near-total destruction of stealth. I mean, let's think about this for a minute: any kind of ability that reveals enemy locations (e.g. Recon Dart, Proximity Radar) already requires hundreds of certs to be invested before it reaches usefulness. Adding something like kill-cam to the game does absolutely nothing to improve PS2's depth of gameplay or balance, and would instead undermine both of those things. As told before, these tools have unique capabilities vs kill-cam and who says kill-cam needs to reveal "everything"? If anything, it balances the game against weaker/newer placers, which is much needed. Forcing you to stay more mobile and think harder before shooting/revealing doesn't kill depth in itself. You can still play the stealth game and likely you will come up new tactics to adept to this.

Second, PS2 isn't just an FPS: it's an MMO, too. Don't fool yourself by comparing PS 2 with traditional MMO's that typically adapt the the difficulty around you to what level you are. What makes PS 2 so brutal for new players is that it lacks such a mechanic. SOE developed this game with the idea that a BR100 should be max 20% stronger vs a new player. The reality of the learning curve however, probably makes a BR100 closer too 200% stronger vs a new player while still putting them in the same arena.

Ok...
I am indifferent to kill cams. There is only one constant for me. There needs to be a way to shut them off (such as a perk or implant). This allows snipers, cloakers, and all other affected parties to circumnavigate the extreme disadvantage this brings them. Other than that, kill cams really make no significant difference.
I think this might actually be a good idea. If you are totally convinced that a kill-cam will bring you at a severe disadvantage and you see no way around it, you can invest into a turn-off ability. However, if you don't feel it hampers your play style too much or see ways around it, then you use that slot for another perk/ability

[OCNSethy]

Firstly - No, to killcams... for all the reasons listed on the last 6 pages.

Secondly - So much love for snipers! I dont recall so much support for one of the most disliked classes since... forever :)

[Babyfark McGeez]

I don't have any objections to a killcam. If you constantly get instagibbed by jokers hiding in dark corners you deserve to atleast know from where that came.
Or lets put it this way; With all the cheesy tactics and cheap one-hit weapons a killcam providing some more info sounds like a fair counter, sort of.

I don't have any problem with the kill-cam-less game as it is though. I think the problem lies rather in the myriad cheesy instagib options avaible.

[almalino]

I was newbie to PS2 at the beginning and was not unhappy being killed constantly and not having kill cam. IMHO, no to kill cam.

Next step would be to enable auto aim for newbies because they cannot hit shit because they are newbies.

Actually, the whole discussion is useless because we do not have statistics on how many people decided not play PS2 because it is too hard for newbies. Is it 1, 2, hundreds, thousands? In last case kill cam might be usefull but we do not have that statistic.

[Baneblade]

If you constantly get instagibbed by jokers hiding in dark corners you deserve to atleast know from where that came.

Why? Why should the game reward your failure by punishing someone else's superior planning?

[Gatekeeper]

For the record, I completely agree with Rolfski, and I think he's making a lot of well-reasoned points in this thread. Unfortunately it seems that almost nobody is interested in actually discussing the pros and cons (or even reading posts in most cases), and instead most posts are either a simple "NO!" or a stream of ranting (with optional insults).

It's a shame we can't have a proper discussion about this, and unfortunately this kind of rage reaction from vets means we'll probably never see any development of this kind, regardless of the merits.

[ketarakh]

Next step would be to enable auto aim for newbies because they cannot hit shit because they are newbies.

Reductio ad absurdum. How cute.
Nobody asks for mechanisms that play for you, aim for you, run for you etc.
The intent is to provide players with some sort of feedback on what mistake they made that lead to them being shot (excluding leaving warpgate :lol:), to answer all those "WTF?! How?!".
Though I don't support killcams (at least COD-type killcams), I acknowledge this problem exists and caused by abysmally low TTK of some weapons.

[Ruffdog]

It's a shame we can't have a proper discussion about this, and unfortunately this kind of rage reaction from vets means we'll probably never see any development of this kind, regardless of the merits.

Everyone and their dog raged (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=39438&highlight=camera) about this back in March 2012 following the GDC reveal (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=39401&highlight=camera).


It got changed to what it is now and got universal backing.

[Dougnifico]

I think this might actually be a good idea. If you are totally convinced that a kill-cam will bring you at a severe disadvantage and you see no way around it, you can invest into a turn-off ability. However, if you don't feel it hampers your play style too much or see ways around it, then you use that slot for another perk/ability

Exactly. I'm not going to crusade for or against the mechanism. I just don't see it being an issue if a system such as this is in place.

[Wahooo]

Reductio ad absurdum. How cute.
Nobody asks for mechanisms that play for you, aim for you, run for you etc.
The intent is to provide players with some sort of feedback on what mistake they made that lead to them being shot (excluding leaving warpgate :lol:), to answer all those "WTF?! How?!".
Though I don't support killcams (at least COD-type killcams), I acknowledge this problem exists and caused by abysmally low TTK of some weapons.

Um... pausing to look around for what killed you and from where and paying attention to the big bright tracers from every weapon IS part of playing the game. Giving a kill-cam that does that for you is a mechanism to play for you.

[Angrytortoise]

(EDITED - I suck at quoting multiple statements)



It's a shame we can't have a proper discussion about this, and unfortunately this kind of rage reaction from vets means we'll probably never see any development of this kind, regardless of the merits.

This was discussed heavily on SoE boards in beta; the large majority of people rejected the concept. And people have given constructive information in this thread as to why they feel it's a bad idea, I wrote a long winded post myself, so to try and make out as if you're the only one trying to rationally discuss the topic is either obliviousness or trolling especially considering you yourself essentially didn't provide any more content than saying you agree with original poster (longer way of saying YES for killcams), and were sad people were responding with things like No! lolol



"This elitist attitude against casual gamers that don't have the time to invest hundreds of hours in a game before getting the hang of it, is for sure the shortest route to a ghost town."


This isn't about being an extremist hardcore gamer people simply don't want a killcam feature because they feel it will take away from the game experience or/and hurt a playstyle they personally enjoy. A discussion on a totally different webforum (SoE Planetside forums) came to the same conclusion months ago, so it's not like PSU is some vocal minority in this discussion.


"Let me spell it out for you. Farming should be discouraged in it's current form: It's frustrating for new players and hardly teaches them anything, detracts from objective play and gives way to many rewards/certs with hardly any risks. If these conditions were to be fixed, farming shouldn't be an issue any more."


In a game where the ultimate objective is territory control, fights are going to occur naturally at locations of strategic interest most of the time. How people participate and contribute to that fight is up to them. So killing people is almost never going to be counter productive to the overall goal. So unless you have defenders defending a non-relevant base (not able capture or something) and for some reason a bunch of enemies decide to go there too I don't see how "farming" can exist in PS2, and even less so how a Kill-Cam is in any way the solution to the root of a problem like that.

"Forcing you to stay relatively mobile might not play as bad as you think in a game that has a zillion camping possibilities."


This is basically just you saying this is the play-style I enjoy and want more to be more prevalent and truth be told I've been spending most of my time in this game as a scythe or a heavy recently so I'm almost never in one spot for very long myself but the fact that this play-style is enjoyable to us doesn't mean that we should shove it down everyone else's throat.


"As told before, these tools have unique capabilities vs kill-cam and who says kill-cam needs to reveal "everything"? If anything, it balances the game against weaker/newer placers, which is much needed. Forcing you to stay more mobile and think harder before shooting/revealing doesn't kill depth in itself. You can still play the stealth game and likely you will come up new tactics to adept to this."


So your saying that stealth tools in planetside 2 need to be altered so they're less heavily impacted by kill-cams, and that players should just adapt their own strategies to work around this feature?...a lot of work for a feature that very few people seem to want implemented in the first place.


"Don't fool yourself by comparing PS 2 with traditional MMO's that typically adapt the the difficulty around you to what level you are. What makes PS 2 so brutal for new players is that it lacks such a mechanic. SOE developed this game with the idea that a BR100 should be max 20% stronger vs a new player. The reality of the learning curve however, probably makes a BR100 closer too 200% stronger vs a new player while still putting them in the same arena."


What your talking about has nothing to do with battlerank, your talking about player/fps experience and game knowledge, this has nothing to do with the in game ranking system aside from the fact that most players of high battle rank have played the game longer. You could have someone who has never played PS2 before log on to a BR100's account and play and get totally smoked by a BR1 who has played a bunch of counterstrike or something. So you're mistaken, the difference between a BR100 and a BR1 is probably about 20%, what you seem to be asking for is that player-skill only have about a 20% impact in who wins an engagement and yes, player-skill does make a much larger than 20% difference.



I think this might actually be a good idea. If you are totally convinced that a kill-cam will bring you at a severe disadvantage and you see no way around it, you can invest into a turn-off ability. However, if you don't feel it hampers your play style too much or see ways around it, then you use that slot for another perk/ability


The entire concept of having to invest to disable this feature puts you at a disadvantage, you've now invested in something someone else hasn't had to leaving the other person free to invest in something else, all for a feature that negatively effects you more than this other player based on your play-style.

[Angrytortoise]

"deleted" -my fail attempt to fix the quotations from previous post

[ShadoViper]

I've wondered about just having the spinnable enemy character model (while remaining 'pinned') replay the last 5 seconds of movements that lead to your demise.

So you cannot see *where* he was, but you might be able to see what he was doing. "Oh he was crouched and waiting for me apparently before he came out threw some C4 on me!".

This would be good. However, everything else kill cam related is a NO from me.

Also good post tortoise.

[Wahooo]

Actually, these are the players that keep this game fresh and in development and prevent it from becoming a dreadful ghost-town for BR100's only: They are called New Players. You might start caring about them as well, unless you want this game to be dead within 2 years of course.

This elitist attitude against casual gamers that don't have the time to invest hundreds of hours in a game before getting the hang of it, is for sure the shortest route to a ghost town.


I care about new players, and I am casual, hardly hard core and very far from BR100. But this thing, you are describing the need for it as if these people have no capacity to learn on their own, or that they REQUIRE this information be spoon fed to them and that is somehow a g good thing.

I would counter that the new players that really need this are not the ones we need to focus on and that they are going to find another reason to up and quit as it is.

I also don't see how you can't get that this type of thing is so much more a powerful tool to those who already have the situational awareness. It is a shortcut to knowledge. No they might not need it and bypass it most of the time, but when it is going to be useful? It is going to be much more useful to those experienced hardcore vets you are trying to protect the newbies from.

I've said it repeatedly in this thread, I do stay mobile when it is called for. I also camp a good spot when it is called for. Generally there is much more effort and risk in getting to a good spot and these are places found by trial and error. There is plenty of risk from players who are aware.

[Babyfark McGeez]

Why? Why should the game reward your failure by punishing someone else's superior planning?

Yeah...superior planning...with these weapons and tools there ain't much of planning if you ask me.
I would see it more as a balance to the amount of cheap kill methods avaible. But as i said i don't advocate for killcams, i think the game is fine without one and i personally don't have any problems figuring out from where i just got killed. But i wouldn't object to having one either.
I just don't get the fuzz, some of you sound like you get all your kills from hiding in some dark corner with a sniper rifle and never, ever leaving lol.

Additionally i took the opportunity to bitch about the weapons in general some more. Yeahhh.

[Wahooo]

I just don't get the fuzz, some of you sound like you get all your kills from hiding in some dark corner with a sniper rifle and never, ever leaving lol.
.

No, not all my kills but when I want to do that sort of thing it seems adding a direct and significant counter to the ability when it isn't as easy to do as some people would like to think gets my feathers ruffled.

There is a reason LA's have sub-par long range weapons and the sniper class is the cloaker. Getting to a place to snipe is risky a lot of the time. You have to be a bit inventive if you want a really good spot you can stay hidden. It takes time and effort to find and get to these spots, and for that to be given up on the sake of it being somehow too hard to figure out where you got killed from? I don't like it.

[ketarakh]

Um... pausing to look around for what killed you and from where and paying attention to the big bright tracers from every weapon IS part of playing the game. Giving a kill-cam that does that for you is a mechanism to play for you.

It's ok when you see those tracers and other stuff but what about situations when you simply don't? When enemy takes stealthy approach, kills you in less than 1 sec and from the position where you can't see him.

[Ertwin]

It's ok when you see those tracers and other stuff but what about situations when you simply don't? When enemy takes stealthy approach, kills you in less than 1 sec and from the position where you can't see him.

You'd still get the hit indicator telling you where the hit came from, followed by the kill screen telling you what killed you.

[Taramafor]

You'd still get the hit indicator telling you where the hit came from, followed by the kill screen telling you what killed you.

I get killed by headless guys sometimes. Honestly, the death screen forgets heads. :eek:

Still see the weapon though. Kind of an indication to change the way you move if it's a sniper (I swear, zig zagging randomly in the open has saved my neck so many times).

The problem with kill cam is this. It won't just show a direction, it will also point out the exact height. So by looking at the screen after getting killed and you see a small yet tall platform, you already know the exact position of that sniper. Something that should be noticed by the player looking in the direction they got hit from, which gives the sniper that crucial time to get in some more shots. I already get shot in the back by other infiltrators that have made an effort to do that. In that time I get around 3-5 kills. With a kill cam, I'd be lucky to get 2 (especially since I'm NOT a pro). Person gets shot. Person sees me on screen. Even in the distance an infiltrator on a vantage point is noticable unless cloaked. What kill cam would do is FORCE snipers to cloak or move after every kill or be seen right of the bat. When a heavy (or any other class for that matter) can get a good 3 in the same amount of time it takes for a sniper to kill one and relocate? Ask yourself which one would be "farming" more.

Also, enemy infiltrators will know where to snipe. Which of course leads to our infs sniping back. And then it's only infs sniping infs since their locations are (at least for the most part) always known.

Let me try to give an example of what we have now and what kill cam would do with the fewest words possible.

What we have now.

Hey Joe, I got sniped. In that general direction. Rage.
Yea, I see two vantage points. Guess I better scout them both out.

What kill cam would do.

Hey Joe, the center of the screen is pointing at that small hill over there.
Oh, he must be just behind it then. I'll flank him and kill him in the next 10 seconds.

Doesn't just affect infs either. Hit and run tactics at close range with any class will be ruined as well. Once you get killed the cam points in players direction. LA that had killed you on the ground is now shown to be on the roof because, guess what, he did EXACTLY what you want people to do. He MOVED and is now getting punished for it.

[Baneblade]

I just don't get the fuzz, some of you sound like you get all your kills from hiding in some dark corner with a sniper rifle and never, ever leaving lol.

I spend 90% of my play time in my Vanguard. My Vanguard has the stealth module, I tend to flank or engage behind enemy lines, and I run AP 99% of the time. So yeah, I don't need even more ways for the enemy to decode my position.

[Wahooo]

What we have now.

Hey Joe, I got sniped. In that general direction. Rage.
Yea, I see two vantage points. Guess I better scout them both out.

What kill cam would do.

Hey Joe, the center of the screen is pointing at that small hill over there.
Oh, he must be just behind it then. I'll flank him and kill him in the next 10 seconds.

Doesn't just affect infs either. Hit and run tactics at close range with any class will be ruined as well. Once you get killed the cam points in players direction. LA that had killed you on the ground is now shown to be on the roof because, guess what, he did EXACTLY what you want people to do. He MOVED and is now getting punished for it.

This is very similar to the argument I put out back in Alpha when the kill cam was proposed.
Now in regards to the argument at hand as it being a tool for newbs. Noob gets sniped kill cam shows some weird vantage point, noob respawns and looks around for that vantage point and sees a couple different possibilities but isn't sure where and says to himself "how does someone actually get up there?" and gets sniped while looking for the sniper in the wrong spot.
VET: Gets sniped, knows exactly where he was sniped from, from experience in the game combined with the kill cam and re-snipes the sniper or calls in buddy who is in a lib or a tank that wouldn't have thought about looking in that crevice.

People here saying kill cam is ok because it disrupts those who rely on all those cheap kill methods ... REALLY? And getting to take your revenge with the knowledge gained from something like a kill cam wouldn't be cheap?

[Rolfski]

I was newbie to PS2 at the beginning and was not unhappy being killed constantly and not having kill cam. IMHO, no to kill cam.
. Problem is that situation has become worse for new players than when you started 49 ranks ago and this gap in increasing by the month.
If you don't introduce mechanics to bridge the gap somewhat then this game is becoming a hardcore ghost town.

Why? Why should the game reward your failure by punishing someone else's superior planning? Superior experience you mean, that becomes increasingly difficult for newer players to overcome to a non-frustrating level as the game grows older, bigger and more complex.

Everyone and their dog raged (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=39438&highlight=camera) about this back in March 2012 following the GDC reveal (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=39401&highlight=camera).

It got changed to what it is now and got universal backing.

Exactly what you said, many people were literally raging about it, instead of constructively discussing it. Lots of mindless "This is not COD/BF3!" arguments in that discussion. Also noticeable is that many rejected the kill-cam in that discussion because it was horribly implemented and didn't teach new players anything, which is true. You could hardly speak of a decent kill-cam in that reveal, it was incredibly rough around the edges.

And because it was badly implemented and unpopular back then doesn't mean you shouldn't re-evaluate it any more. That's just short-sighted. The state of the game has hanged drastically in the mean time.

Btw: One remark in that discussion stood out really for me. One guy said he liked the kill-cam in COD because it made dying a lot more fun. I can completely relate to that. Making dying a lot more fun in a game goes a long way of taking away a lot of the frustration. In this game dying is probably the worst experience of any shooter I've ever played.


This isn't about being an extremist hardcore gamer people simply don't want a killcam feature because they feel it will take away from the game experience or/and hurt a playstyle they personally enjoy. I was responding to an elitist argument here about "people lacking mental capability"


So unless you have defenders defending a non-relevant base (not able capture or something) and for some reason a bunch of enemies decide to go there too I don't see how "farming" can exist in PS2, and even less so how a Kill-Cam is in any way the solution to the root of a problem like that. I suggest you wake up, there's an insane amount of non-objective driven mindless killing just for the sake of farming XP in this game and I already explained how a kill-cam could discourage that somewhat.


This is basically just you saying this is the play-style I enjoy and want more to be more prevalent and truth be told I've been spending most of my time in this game as a scythe or a heavy recently so I'm almost never in one spot for very long myself but the fact that this play-style is enjoyable to us doesn't mean that we should shove it down everyone else's throat.
Game design is about steering player behaviour and this is not the same as shoving anything in some ones throat: Players could still choose to stay immobile with a kill-cam either by using cover, stay concealed/don't engage or making kill-cam off a perk slot as has been suggested.


So your saying that stealth tools in planetside 2 need to be altered so they're less heavily impacted by kill-cams, and that players should just adapt their own strategies to work around this feature?...a lot of work for a feature that very few people seem to want implemented in the first place.
They're literally tons of ways to implement kill-cams in a game and make stealth play still viable and fun. This whole stigma of "kill-cams destroy stealth game" is just way too short sighted.


What your talking about has nothing to do with battlerank, your talking about player/fps experience and game knowledge, this has nothing to do with the in game ranking system aside from the fact that most players of high battle rank have played the game longer. You could have someone who has never played PS2 before log on to a BR100's account and play and get totally smoked by a BR1 who has played a bunch of counterstrike or something. So you're mistaken, the difference between a BR100 and a BR1 is probably about 20%, what you seem to be asking for is that player-skill only have about a 20% impact in who wins an engagement and yes, player-skill does make a much larger than 20% difference
Not sure what your point is. BR not 100% always being related to skill/experience is not the point. The point is that differences have become way bigger than the 20% this game was originally designed for: It's literally gearing out of control. Air play now inaccessible for most players because of elite pilots totally raping the sky is a good example of this.


The entire concept of having to invest to disable this feature puts you at a disadvantage, you've now invested in something someone else hasn't had to leaving the other person free to invest in something else, all for a feature that negatively effects you more than this other player based on your play-style. That is how specialization works, you make choices. It's the same how slots work in a game.


What kill cam would do.

Hey Joe, the center of the screen is pointing at that small hill over there.
Oh, he must be just behind it then. I'll flank him and kill him in the next 10 seconds.
What kill cam would actually do is that the infiltrator would cloak towards a new camping spot that overlooks his old one so he can gun down any one stupid enough to come to his last location. It's called tactics.

[Ertwin]

A kill cam would also reduce the effectiveness of a small squad against a zerg. A couple of months back my squad leader was able to get a beacon on a really tall rock outcropping. Once we dropped in on it as engineers and heavies, we were able to stop a TR tank zerg without getting spotted for a good 5 minutes. The zerg had no idea where we were shooting from, but a couple of people were paying attention, and we got hit by light assaults.

That wasn't a loctation where we could "just relocate" A kill cam would have prevented that from working near instantly.

[Taramafor]

That is how specialization works, you make choices. It's the same how slots work in a game.


Once you add in a pure game mechanic that offers no realism whatsoever that someone has to waste certs or money on, the game WILL die.

Under NO circumstances must you pay to REMOVE something that you don't want. That IS shoving it down our throats.

I give up. You obviously don't care about the majority of players, vets and noobs alike. Most of which are obviously against it.

As for you killcam not showing where cover arguments stands, the cam will show the cover. Ergo, person is behind said cover.

You seem to think that kill cam can work if done in a certain way, but in all ways it shows the location of who killed you. Just because you and some other guy on another game found it fun to die with that doesn't mean others playing the same game do either.

As for sniping, I already said that not everyone is an efficient sniper. A noob will get 1-3 kills before dying as it is. With killcam, they'd be lucky to get 2. Now a pro sniper on the other hand can get a few more and rightly so. Getting a look around a battlefield might not be easy with them around, but it's perfectly doable as long as you use cover. If you see a trail coming from that hill the moment you poke your head out then you found the location. Not smart enough to keep eyes up on hills going though a pass before dying? Your fault. Not the snipers. Respawn and look around on the high ground.

I will NOT have spoon fed information and revealed locations in this game and if anything like that is ever implemented, I'll stop playing for sure. Because it's not THAT difficult to find out if you make the effort to look around and learn over time. Something I enjoy doing myself and I make every effort to perform recon when I can. If new players aren't willing to make that commitment, then frankly, they don't have the attention span to play the game. Or don't make time to play the game enough to learn from their mistakes.

Now if you can get a kill cam implemented that doesn't have a negative effect on the enemy, by all means, make it yourself and let people test run it. The only possible way a kill cam MIGHT work is a time delay before seeing it (The VR movie idea someone mentioned). Perhaps listing all possible deaths in the last hour and giving the player the option to watch it. That however would need more internet usage of which not everyone has to spare. Same goes for recording on this game too so unfortunately, not everyone can learn by watching how they play.

I can understand you want to give newer players a helping hand, but there's helping and just plain hand holding.

[Angrytortoise]

I was responding to an elitist argument here about "people lacking mental capability"

Sorry I caught you out of context, it just seemed to be a theme from certain people in this thread that assumes people don't want a kill camera because they're elitist or a hardcore fps gamer which I wanted to reiterate is not the case, and that it's simply a feature which the majority people of many differing situations felt didn't add to the enjoyability or depth of the game or take it in a direction they found pleasing.

Also..
From what I gathered he wasn't trying to insult the new player base, he was implying that the people you are trying to represent with this argument do not encompass the entirety of the new player base, or even a large majority but instead consist of people of incompetence. (he's welcome to correct me if I interpreted that wrong)


I suggest you wake up, there's an insane amount of non-objective driven mindless killing just for the sake of farming XP in this game and I already explained how a kill-cam could discourage that somewhat.

This has not been my experience. Sure you will have people push on places like that base below Regent Rock on the way to Peris Amp that people will end up pushing on even though it's not capturable now and again but that's more of a spill over from a major push and isn't a continuous grind fest forever, it usually tapers off as the main conflict moves on. Also it's not like these people are forever bound to spawn at that base and if they don't know any better because they're new players why would kill cams solve this? The much better solution would be to clarify the spawn system and make the objectives more apparent/easy to understand not to go and show them their killers screen every time they run out and die.


Not sure what your point is. BR not 100% always being related to skill/experience is not the point. The point is that differences have become way bigger than the 20% this game was originally designed for: It's literally gearing out of control. Air play now inaccessible for most players because of elite pilots totally raping the sky is a good example of this.

Firstly, my point was obvious, you had stated a BR100 was approx 200% more powerful than a BR1, I was stating and clarifying since you had failed to do so that Battle rank had absolutely nothing to do with you're argument aside from being a by-product of a fair amount of high skill players, and further clarifying that it was player skill's impact in the game and not cert points which you took issue with.

This alters the motivations of your entire argument for why kill cam should be implemented. It's the difference between saying kill camera's help players who don't play FPS's learn the game mechanics and saying kill camera's help players who don't play FPS's compete against people who spent hours and hours playing at it. Sony is pushing PS2 as a potential esport so implementing a feature with the intent to use it to lower the skill ceiling of the game is unlikely.

As far as the air game is concerned I agree that it's very unfriendly to new pilots and it's certainly amplified by the fact that it's a vehicle tree with a very high skill ceiling due to the high mobility/high damage/relatively fragile & unforgiving nature of aircraft..not to mention resource costs making it hard for new pilots to get the airtime they need to improve; but this is an issue which has been addressed by the devs so that more new pilots can spend a longer time flying, and not one which a kill cam is going to remedy.


That is how specialization works, you make choices. It's the same how slots work in a game.

Here you completely missed the point of what I said. I already explained exactly why this was not simply specialization. You just told someone that their playstyle now also comes at the price of a suit slot. Someone who plays more aggressive and mobile now has a suit slot advantage over you because kill camera has less of a detrimental effect the way they play. No this is just you wanting to remove certain strategies/tactics/combat elements from the game because you don't like them.


What kill cam would actually do is that the infiltrator would cloak towards a new camping spot that overlooks his old one so he can gun down any one stupid enough to come to his last location. It's called tactics.

No that's called metagame for kill cam, and you can have metagame (predicting enemy action) and deploy tactics of all manor without having a kill-camera to tell you where your enemy was when he shot you in the head.

Anyways feel I've more than said my piece on this subject, and bored or not this thread is getting kind of repetitive so I think I'll leave it with this..

While I feel that watching a failed engagement from the victors perspective can have positive impact on improving your play a kill camera watchable immediately, or shortly after dieing is not the right method of implementation and that it would cause more harm than good. The time it would take to implement this feature over the multitude of other feature's I feel this game would benefit from gives it extremely low priority compared to something like optimization, resource revamps, and other new content the dev team could be working on.

[Baneblade]

Superior experience you mean, that becomes increasingly difficult for newer players to overcome to a non-frustrating level as the game grows older, bigger and more complex.

You do know that kill cam only makes it easier for vets, right? A newbie isn't even going to know what to do with the information.

I'd rather keep kill cam out and simply promote people developing situational awareness.

[Sunrock]

Do you really think that newbs are that retarded Rolfskis and that they will stay that noobish for more then a few hours? Yes sure there are maybe 1 in 1000 but do you really think we should change the game because of that 1 guy?

[PredatorFour]

Do you really think that newbs are that retarded Rolfskis and that they will stay that noobish for more then a few hours? Yes sure there are maybe 1 in 1000 but do you really think we should change the game because of that 1 guy?

He is right! Also we were ALL noobs once .... was it that hard ???? really ???

No. It wasn't.

[Wahooo]

I was responding to an elitist argument here about "people lacking mental capability".

IT WASN"T AN ELITIST ARGUMENT, YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING NEW PLAYERS LACK THE MENTAL ABILITY TO LEARN ON THEIR OWN.

I'm asking you if they are so brain dead as to need this "feature" is it really going to help them?

You have continued to avoid many of the arguments in this thread and go back to the points you consider emotional and biased. teh OMG! COD stuff has hardly been mentioned by anyone but you, yet you still think the only reason people don't want it is to hate on COD. As I said pages ago, I don't hate kill cam because of COD but part of what I don't like about COD is the kill cam.

Further, it seems more and more you don't want to admit this isn't about helping noobs. You say that, then go on to say how this is an anti farming or camping step. Buck up and understand a lot of people play games for the dangling carrot. Hell I know some guys I play games with the can't stand a game that doesn't have achievements and if they are playing a game with achievements they just whore those like it is the purpose of the game. People play for different reasons, and if someone wants to see how fast they can get auraxium kills on every weapon in the game there really is NOTHING WRONG with that. It isn't playing wrong, it doesn't hurt the game, infact it really has no effect on other players if you have an organized squad/platoon and doing what you want to do in game. Blaming others for your lack of fun isn't going to be fixed like this.

And again, vets and those with better awareness and FPS experience are going to get more out of this than new players, AND in fact those new players who do get a few kills are going to be at a BIGGER disadvantage against better players with a kill cam.

Most of the hardcore "farming" isn't really going to change. It happens in biolabs and places the kill cam isn't going to help, unless you are talking about AV turrets and sniping and in that case you are completely neutering those people which YOU might be alright with but should not happen.


TLDR;
1. Not wanting Kill Cam has nothing to do with COD rage.
2. Your reasoning seems thinly veiled on helping new players, where it is actually just more personal.
3. Vets and those who are more aware will benefit much more than new players, and probably to the new players demise. How does Killcam help new players break into the ESF game?
4. It really does nothing to stop farming where the REAL farms happen.

More to the point, you been around long enough I think a lot of us assumed you are not the noob you are talking about. I think I was wrong on that point. So please stop telling us how to play sniper when you have near zero experience with the class.

[scufmark]

I'm all down for Killcam, but I'd rather see it implemented as a "How you died from the enemies POV" sort of cam. You see there scope and them shoot you dead. That's about it.

A traditional killcam is a no go for me, I don't like the idea of someone seeing their enemy's position in any way really. As a player who has spent a good portion of his time as Inf, I have learned that people who go after Infiltrators often die in their attempt of revenge.

In regards to revenge, let it go. Because seriously, how many times have you tried hunting down that sniper, who is often behind their friendly lines, and you get mowed down? I mean, come on. Killcam is just a motive for people to enact revenge in my opinion. That's all I've ever noticed from it quite honestly.

Everyone has their own opinion, I think Killcam has some good and bad. But for me, I'd rather not see a traditional Killcam. It ruins the point of sniping. When I find my bush, and get all snuggled in, it's not my fault someone can't see me when they die. If they take the same route, they should expect the same outcome. They need to change tactics. Yes, I try to snipe, cloak and move. But sometimes, a spot is just so nice you don't think moving is worth it. That's when the counter-snipers start sending rounds down range and you book it.

[Rolfski]

A kill cam would also reduce the effectiveness of a small squad against a zerg. A couple of months back my squad leader was able to get a beacon on a really tall rock outcropping. Once we dropped in on it as engineers and heavies, we were able to stop a TR tank zerg without getting spotted for a good 5 minutes. The zerg had no idea where we were shooting from, but a couple of people were paying attention, and we got hit by light assaults.

That wasn't a loctation where we could "just relocate" A kill cam would have prevented that from working near instantly.
Shooting down from a top of a cliff on a zerg is a typical situation were newer players (often part of a zerg) can quickly learn from a kill-cam how important checking all your angles in this game is. Nothin wrong with that imo. Sure they know now where they get shot from (that's the point of kill-cam) but you still control the high ground in a relatively safe position and you're still stopping that zerg.

Once you add in a pure game mechanic that offers no realism whatsoever that someone has to waste certs or money on, the game WILL die. Believe me, this game will die faster at the rate the skill ceiling is making the game increasingly more frustrating for new players. And don't give me the realism argument because nothing is realistic in this game and if anything, analyzing where you get shot from is a way more realistic military technique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang_(countermeasure)) than camping over and over from the same spot.


Under NO circumstances must you pay to REMOVE something that you don't want. That IS shoving it down our throats. Non-argument. I don't want bullet damage either, they're shoving it down my throat. Guess what, I can cert into nano weave armor to take some of that away.


Now if you can get a kill cam implemented that doesn't have a negative effect on the enemy, by all means, make it yourself and let people test run it. Well, that's the real problem here. Too many of the veteran hardcore players are just never not prepared to give up anything of their insanely OP position if that helps the game for all players. You saw that with the reverse thruster discussion, it's not different with the kill-cam discussion. And it's exactly this hopelessly short-sighted vision that will die out the game.


This (farming, R.) has not been my experience.
Why do you think they put walls around the bases on Esamir? What is the idea you think behind dome shields they want to implement? Why did the Fury, Marauder and every splash damage dealing weapon got severely nerfed since launch? Why did they change the XP kill reward system for newly spawned players? Why did they overhaul the spawn room designs? Farming has been one of the biggest issues of this game since launch that is still not solved.


This alters the motivations of your entire argument for why kill cam should be implemented. It's the difference between saying kill camera's help players who don't play FPS's learn the game mechanics and saying kill camera's help players who don't play FPS's compete against people who spent hours and hours playing at it. No it doesn't alter the motivation at all actually.
Experienced FPS player or not, this game should be easy to learn but hard to master for everybody. Going from zero to mediocre skill plateau where 80% of the players sit, should be a smooth ride. Going from mediocre to elite skill, however, should be an insanely long and steep traject (high skill ceiling) that will make you in the end only 20% stronger vs mediocre players, not 200% as is now the case. Kill-cam will help new players getting to the 80% plateau, after that it won't help them getting to the elite level. It will help somewhat however, in toning down the elite player skill vs reward output from 200% to an acceptable 20% level.


No this is just you wanting to remove certain strategies/tactics/combat elements from the game because you don't like them. Farming should not be promoted in this game. That's not just because I don't like it. As I told you above, there's a reason why they put these walls on Esamir. If you still want to farm, then giving up a perk slot is a very reasonable price to pay imo. In the end, you still have a choice.


No that's called metagame for kill cam.
It's called counter play in this video actually and demonstrates that counter strategies for mechanics like kill-cam or spotting can make a game a lot more interesting for everybody than just sniping or farming the heck out of people and making only one side happy:

Extra Credits: Counter Play - YouTube

You do know that kill cam only makes it easier for vets, right? No, it doesn't and I already explained why that is.


Do you really think that newbs are that retarded Rolfski and that they will stay that noobish for more then a few hours? By far the most difficult thing to learn in this game is positioning/situational awareness. You will never learn that in hours, not even in months. There's just way too much map content, angles of attack, chaotic battle flow and weapon types in this game for any but the most hardcore dedicated players to overcome that and it's getting worse by the month. That's exactly why we need playfield leveling tools for this like kill-cam.


TLDR
1. Not wanting Kill Cam has nothing to do with COD rage. I was referring to the alpha/ tech-test discussion were kill-cam got rejected. There was a lot of COD rage in that discussion.


2. Your reasoning seems thinly veiled on helping new players, where it is actually just more personal. I'm not aware of any secret agenda on my side but feel free to disbelieve me. I just want this game to be a good experience for everybody: whether you're new, casual, veteran or hardcore. Right now this game is only getting better for hardcorce veterans, who have a loud enough voice in forums like this to block any direction in this game they don't like. This worries me a lot. Newer, casual gamers don't come to this forum and discuss 8 pages over features that might help them. They just get frustrated, quit and never come back.


3. Vets and those who are more aware will benefit much more than new players, and probably to the new players demise. How does Killcam help new players break into the ESF game?I already explained on the first one. And kill-cam will not help much in the ESF game but it will help leveling the playing field on the ground. The current ESF game shows us what will happen if the strong get stronger to a level that there's no room anymore for the weaker to enter. You don't want this to happen to your ground game as well or this game WILL die.


4. It really does nothing to stop farming where the REAL farms happen.It might not stop farming (not sure what will ever stop farming in this game) but it should have a general discouraging effect.


In regards to revenge, let it go. Because seriously, how many times have you tried hunting down that sniper, who is often behind their friendly lines, and you get mowed down? I agree. Kill-cam is a horrible revenge tool, especially in a game like this, if that is what you use it only for. If you use it however, to learn from your death and make sure you don't do it again, then it is a very helpful tool imo.

[Baneblade]

No, it doesn't and I already explained why that is.

If you call that an explanation, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you hit your head with a trebuchet counter weight.

[Wahooo]

If you call that an explanation, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you hit your head with a trebuchet counter weight.

Common thing through this whole thread really.

'it works in COD but this is not COD, it is a totally different game' He's fine with that as an argument against having K/D but for some reason can't see why it would apply here.
In COD there are random spawns, the guy you just killed may spawn right behind you, though the pro-campers in a lot of instanced shooters know where the spawn locations are and set up so than can take people down there. You have a few chaotic moments to learn the map, discover where stuff is, and try and figure out how to get to weird vantage points. All within the game when you are trying to kill more than be killed.
In Planetside? The map is always there, you can choose a time when no one is around that area and explore it. You dismissed this as not a typical MMO because there was nothing to explore. You are flat out wrong there is a lot to explore. That is how people found the BFR garage, not a place you run into by fighting. And able to get ESFs inside biodomes, you don't learn that during a fight, and all of the different places sunderers have been parked that the devs have needed to come back and add bollards and lower roofs and stuff. These are all things that you cannot do in an instanced shooter and why a kill cam helps. I've spent so much time trying to figure out how to get certain places in this game and the number of deaths from suicide on a flash or falling off cliffs it is silly.

'Kill cam would give X information to experienced players' 'No... you already have radar, or experience or tracers or awareness...' ???? WTF you just countered the argument against kill cam by saying there are better ways of finding out the same info? But yet it is still needed????

Then telling everyone how to play sniper when he's basically never done that.
Then talking about how kill cam would prevent people farming with prowlers and harassers. Really the tank with lockdown is supposed to be mobile? And kill cam does what exactly to counter a harasser? If anything it leads to more confusion to a new player because the harasser is never stationary... like ever.


Long and the short of it is Rolf I re-read everything you've written in this thread, and other than the sentiment that new players need a bit better experience, I disagree with everything you've said... EVERYTHING. There have been well reasoned arguments, you've dismissed them or simply don't understand the true impact.

The biggie for me right now in this, is that you are not understanding how this helps experienced FPS players with good awareness who may or may not be vets of this game more than the new player. I don't care about the new player learning my 'secrets' my worry as a sniper has nothing to do with that, it is the good player I fear, the one YOU say is going to ignore the kill cam. We've proposed several different scenarios where the kill cam provides crucial info to aware or experienced players and you counter it with ~'no there is already THIS in game that tells you everything.' ???
Basically telling us that all of the mechanics that are in game already are superior for gaining tactical knowledge... yet a kill cam is needed for new players to gain tactical knowledge... and that it benefits new players more than vets because there is already better ways of gaining info in the game :confused::rolleyes:
Information is power, and someone with more information is going to utilize that power better, the kill cam for what little good it might do to new players is power that experienced players will use better. This widens the gap between new and experienced more than closes it.

[Ertwin]

Shooting down from a top of a cliff on a zerg is a typical situation were newer players (often part of a zerg) can quickly learn from a kill-cam how important checking all your angles in this game is. Nothin wrong with that imo. Sure they know now where they get shot from (that's the point of kill-cam) but you still control the high ground in a relatively safe position and you're still stopping that zerg.



It was only a relatively safe position because nobody knew we were there, once we were discovered, we were quickly flushed out. A kill cam would have immediately rendered that position useless.

You're saying that people can already guess what's inside a dug in position without kill cam, so kill cam is useless for information, but there is a huge world of difference between guesswork and knowing for sure.

You say that if you want to stay hidden with a kill cam, just focus on staying hidden, and move when you shoot. However you're forgetting that you can be revealed by someone else's kill cam. Kill cams show way too much, and as much as it helps the newbies, it helps the vets a lot more.

Furthermore, the majority of the camping/farming is around the spawn room. How is a kill cam going to help newbs there?

[Badjuju]

Common thing through this whole thread really.

'it works in COD but this is not COD, it is a totally different game' He's fine with that as an argument against having K/D but for some reason can't see why it would apply here.
In COD there are random spawns, the guy you just killed may spawn right behind you, though the pro-campers in a lot of instanced shooters know where the spawn locations are and set up so than can take people down there. You have a few chaotic moments to learn the map, discover where stuff is, and try and figure out how to get to weird vantage points. All within the game when you are trying to kill more than be killed.
In Planetside? The map is always there, you can choose a time when no one is around that area and explore it. You dismissed this as not a typical MMO because there was nothing to explore. You are flat out wrong there is a lot to explore. That is how people found the BFR garage, not a place you run into by fighting. And able to get ESFs inside biodomes, you don't learn that during a fight, and all of the different places sunderers have been parked that the devs have needed to come back and add bollards and lower roofs and stuff. These are all things that you cannot do in an instanced shooter and why a kill cam helps. I've spent so much time trying to figure out how to get certain places in this game and the number of deaths from suicide on a flash or falling off cliffs it is silly.

'Kill cam would give X information to experienced players' 'No... you already have radar, or experience or tracers or awareness...' ???? WTF you just countered the argument against kill cam by saying there are better ways of finding out the same info? But yet it is still needed????

Then telling everyone how to play sniper when he's basically never done that.
Then talking about how kill cam would prevent people farming with prowlers and harassers. Really the tank with lockdown is supposed to be mobile? And kill cam does what exactly to counter a harasser? If anything it leads to more confusion to a new player because the harasser is never stationary... like ever.


Long and the short of it is Rolf I re-read everything you've written in this thread, and other than the sentiment that new players need a bit better experience, I disagree with everything you've said... EVERYTHING. There have been well reasoned arguments, you've dismissed them or simply don't understand the true impact.

The biggie for me right now in this, is that you are not understanding how this helps experienced FPS players with good awareness who may or may not be vets of this game more than the new player. I don't care about the new player learning my 'secrets' my worry as a sniper has nothing to do with that, it is the good player I fear, the one YOU say is going to ignore the kill cam. We've proposed several different scenarios where the kill cam provides crucial info to aware or experienced players and you counter it with ~'no there is already THIS in game that tells you everything.' ???
Basically telling us that all of the mechanics that are in game already are superior for gaining tactical knowledge... yet a kill cam is needed for new players to gain tactical knowledge... and that it benefits new players more than vets because there is already better ways of gaining info in the game :confused::rolleyes:
Information is power, and someone with more information is going to utilize that power better, the kill cam for what little good it might do to new players is power that experienced players will use better. This widens the gap between new and experienced more than closes it.

I'm with you 100%. There perceived benefit that a kill cam may have for new players is very small and not comparable to all the negatives that come with it. There are also far better ways for new players to gain knowledge if they are looking for it. Streams and YouTube guides for example provide way more help than a kill cam ever will and are very popular these days. I know the counter argument is not everyone chooses to use resources like that, but those people are probably not going to spend time evaluating what took place in the kill cam either.


Kill cams are not some god send for new players, sorry Rolf. Case and point COD. The kill cam has been in the game for how many generations and the situational awareness of the general player base is terrible. Situational awareness is something comes with practice and experience. It will be strengthened much more by actively watching better players, or simply making the effort to pay attention to what you are doing and then asking yourself what you did wrong when you died. You don't need a kill cam 99% of the time to do that. There is no need to give out real time information which reveals all kinds of information.

[Wahooo]

I'm with you 100%. There perceived benefit that a kill cam may have for new players is very small and not comparable to all the negatives that come with it. There are also far better ways for new players to gain knowledge if they are looking for it. Streams and YouTube guides for example provide way more help than a kill cam ever will and are very popular these days. I know the counter argument is not everyone chooses to use resources like that, but those people are probably not going to spend time evaluating what took place in the kill cam either.

OH my yes... I had totally meant to say just this.

Those players who don't want to use resources to learn are going to quit anyway. They are not going to be retained and come and go and are always fodder.
The ones who may get frustrated and leave BEFORE they get a chance to learn? Yes I agree they need something. Tutoring outfits, tutorial videos.

The complaint that the skill gap between high and low is too great is hard to deal with. yes it is large but a lot of vets know this. That is why there are so many instructional youtube videos. Instanced shooters? most videos are either hackers or just high twitch playser waving epeen. The example about ESF pilots not wanting a change to their flight mechanics? well there are several videos from some of the best pilots in the game trying to TEACH how to fly like them. You don't see this in instanced shooters. You do see it in Planetside.

[Ruffdog]

Just wondering: are you guessing, or have you got first hand accounts of such lamenting of said frustrations? Quitting because of rubbish frame rate or cheating scumbags I can buy. People ive recommended to have 100percent quit because of the frames. Not one has got moody because they got got from a bad angle or a high br may have dominated them.
I cannot buy what you're saying.

[Timithos]

Though I find killcams a little bit too much for this game, I think than newbies must have some sort of info on how and from where they were shot. For example when you die and while you are falling on the ground your camera turns for 2-3 seconds in the direction where the guy that killed you was standing. Some sort of advanced "hit direction detector" UI thingy.

I kind of like this where instead of the camera panning upwards over your corpse, it pans in the direction of the damage. You still get a dim screen and a kill screen overlay that doubly obscures the enemy you're trying to look at. Snipers are still pretty darn safe, and splash damage is going to give you all kinds of false camera directions. Plus the enemy player that does the majority of damage will at times be masked by the enemy that gets the kill shot.

[Rolfski]

If you call that an explanation, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you hit your head with a trebuchet counter weight.
Maybe your enlightened being then can explain me why newer players would rather get exploited from a kill cam system than learn from it because I have a hard time seeing that.

If BR 100's get killed, they just know 90% of the time what killed them and from what angle. They just hit enter and skip the kill-cam footage most of the time. For them, kill-cam is occasionally useful to sharpen the extra 1% on their skills. Newer players however, should relatively learn a lot more from it.


In COD there are random spawns, the guy you just killed may spawn right behind you, though the pro-campers in a lot of instanced shooters know where the spawn locations are and set up so than can take people down there. You have a few chaotic moments to learn the map, discover where stuff is, and try and figure out how to get to weird vantage points. All within the game when you are trying to kill more than be killed.
In Planetside? The map is always there, you can choose a time when no one is around that area and explore it.
This is an illusion, seriously. In COD and BF3, there are plenty of ways to learn the map without getting in the thick of a fight. These maps are relatively small, designed for a specific battle flow and are reasonably predictable. It can be learned reasonably easy and if anything, you don't really need kill-cam in these games. Still, kill-cam is widely accepted in these games. Not sure if you have seen the latest Gamescom BF4 MP footage but the kill-cam in that upcoming title is very obvious (at 7:35 for instance):

Kill-cam BF4

In PS2 however, learning this is almost impossible to do. You can fly around and explore MMO style forever (seriously, who does that in a shooter?), but getting a hang of all angles and camping spots is just impossible to learn for anyone, not willing to spend at least 20 full days into this game. How realistic is that for an average player? This game is just way too big, way too chaotic and way too unpredictable.
Even kill-cam won't fix this 100%, but at least it helps you as a newer player to become more aware of your surroundings. As BR 100 you already knew this. You won't get any uber power out of a kill-cam that lower skilled players won't get. This whole "vets get more advantage of it" is just a false argument from players being afraid to loose their edge.

It was only a relatively safe position because nobody knew we were there, once we were discovered, we were quickly flushed out. A kill cam would have immediately rendered that position useless. I disagree. A good set-up launcher position on a high cliff takes a dedicated, organized team effort to take out. Sure, you must have heard these stories of squads on a cliff destroying everything coming out of the SE Indar warpgate, taking forever for an entire faction to properly respond to it.


Furthermore, the majority of the camping/farming is around the spawn room. How is a kill cam going to help newbs there? Newbie error no 1 is thinking you are safe in front of an enemy spawn room, so kill-cam will for sure teach this instantly. The real value of kill-cam when it comes to farming is in the other farming situations, which are numerous: Getting shot by tanks when in a tower, getting libbed/lol podded, get farmed by harasser, get sniped by AV turrets from impossible distances, etc. etc.


There are also far better ways for new players to gain knowledge if they are looking for it. Streams and YouTube guides for example provide way more help than a kill cam ever will and are very popular these days. I know the counter argument is not everyone chooses to use resources like that, but those people are probably not going to spend time evaluating what took place in the kill cam either.
Well, here is exactly your problem. Any threshold you raise for people to learn the game intuitively and "in your face" is not going to work for 80% of the target group this game is after to maintain a healthy player base.
Kill-cam is by no means ideal but direct feedback about your death is for sure a better feedback tool for casual players than forcing them into watching youtubes.

And there's always the "make dying fun" factor, which is imo very important for any casual or beginning player. And kill-cam is for sure a better way to make dying fun in this game than the horrible depressing death screen we have right now.
Btw, this is also the reason why I strongly oppose the useless KDR stat, as it makes dying even more depressing for most players, but this is a whole different discussion.


Kill cams are not some god send for new players, sorry Rolf. Case and point COD. The kill cam has been in the game for how many generations and the situational awareness of the general player base is terrible.
Exactly my point. Kill-cam is the very least they should do to improve overall situational awareness, because right now it is downright atrocious and one of the Achilles heels of this game. Kill-cam may not be the god send but it belongs to the very hygienics they should fix to give average players at least some notion about what the heck is going on.

This game NEEDS to attract some of the "casual" COD/BF3 player base in order to survive, like it or not. Relying on them to learn from YouTube or at least investing 200+ hours into this game, in order to get something of a grasp of it, is nowhere going to cut it.

Just wondering: are you guessing, or have you got first hand accounts of such lamenting of said frustrations?
As I told in the opening post, being kinda admin of the Dutch PS2 community, I get a lot of feedback from frustrated people (pm or in forum). It's not the biggest registered issue because frankly, you typically won't see casual players on forums, but it's for sure a frequent complaint.

Edit: I edited some text to make it more clear because people took it out of context for trolling reasons

[Sledgecrushr]

IF a killcam would help to retain players then Im all for it.

[Taramafor]

Believe me, this game will die faster at the rate the skill ceiling is making the game increasingly more frustrating for new players. And don't give me the realism argument because nothing is realistic in this game and if anything, analyzing where you get shot from is a way more realistic military technique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang_(countermeasure)) than camping over and over from the same spot.

Non-argument. I don't want bullet damage either, they're shoving it down my throat. Guess what, I can cert into nano weave armor to take some of that away.

Seriously? That's your argument? Bullet's ARE realistic. They WILL kill you. In or out of games. Just as much as someone standing in a corner when you blindly charge into a room. A killcam might help show people in corners in this game but when they play others they'll be so used to it that they'll neglect to check those corners. Who's fault is that? By your logic it's the person being smart enough to camp a corner who could easily be blown up by a grenade (or flashed then mowed down). What you're talking about is adding a purely visual game mechanic and forcing people to cert into REMOVING it. Nanoweave is an ADDITION (also this game wouldn't EXIST without bullets). So don't give me that "none realistic" bull. Even spawning has some degree of realism in this game since there's the lore about it (could as easily be another soldier instead of the same one regardless) Plus it's a tried and true game mechanic that doesn't have any negative impact whatsoever (not including spawn room camping and such which can be fixed with some sort of spread out/switch of locations).

Also, what's your proof that people are rage quitting because they don't have the intelligence to learn simple rules of engagement? The game's not that difficult. You do the tutorial. You drop pod. You have a gun. And if you get killed in a room and didn't see anyone, well I tell myself to check the corners. My own dumb fault for rushing in like an idiot.

The only "learning curve" is all the stuff that gets certed into. But there's clear explanations of what weapons are good at. HE is for infantry. AP is for armor. Etc. That and repairing/reviving and hacking. A killcam does not show people how to do any of that (training/VR really needs to get people to use those). I put that as a higher priority frankly.

I haven't seen an under populated map in... Well... Ever. Seems to me people get by just fine with the tools they have.

I give up. Trying to talk sense into you is like trying to explain to a 1 year old advanced math.

[Baneblade]

If BR 100's get killed, they just know 90% of the time what killed them and from what angle. They just hit enter and skip the kill-cam footage most of the time. For them, kill-cam is occasionally useful to sharpen the extra 1% on their skills. Newer players however, should relatively learn a lot more from it.

If I had access to a kill cam, I'd be studying the shit out of it every time and using that information to send more newbies footage of myself cutting through them like a hot knife through butter. Just because you imagine yourself some champion of newbiedom, doesn't make you any less wrong about how established players will use kill cam.

Even PS1's death cam was far too useful to a vet.

We are better off without both. Develop situational awareness or don't, but don't think for a minute that a kill cam will help a newbie more than a vet.

[Sledgecrushr]

If a kill cam would make a newb feel more comfortable and increase player retention then this would be a good thing. So far for what we have it looks like keeping new players has been an issue.

[Wahooo]

This is an illusion, seriously. In COD and BF3, there are plenty of ways to learn the map without getting in the thick of a fight. These maps are relatively small, designed for a specific battle flow and are reasonably predictable. It can be learned reasonably easy and if anything, you don't really need kill-cam in these games.

In PS2 however, learning this is almost impossible to do. You can fly around and explore MMO style forever (seriously, who does that in a shooter?), but getting a hang of all angles and camping spots is just impossible to learn for anyone, not willing to spend at least 20 full days into this game. How realistic is that for an average player? This game is just way too big, way too chaotic and way too unpredictable.
Even kill-cam won't fix this,

http://img.pandawhale.com/66299-Mal-Reynolds-Firefly-speechles-iEFf.gif

[Taramafor]

Thank you! Finally, proof that he's full of it and has no idea what he's talking about.

[Ruffdog]

Ok new guys probably need to realise that they are unlikely to go anywhere they want tearing up ass. The order of the day when you're new, especially now with the large degree of vets, is to concentrate on support to build up certs to build fighting classes. I think a lot of complaints will be from people who enter a 1v1 and hardly ever come out on top. Kill cam probably won't help here.
And really how often do you die to snipers when infils can pack an smg? And if you die to one of those blighters you just gotta shrug.
Get them to look up YouTube. There are videos galore. Wrel, itzmurda, zoranthebear have put hundreds of hours of time into ps2 into helping you stay alive and get more from this game.


But we really don't want a killcam

[Ertwin]

If BR 100's get killed, they just know 90% of the time what killed them and from what angle. They just hit enter and skip the kill-cam footage most of the time. For them, kill-cam is occasionally useful to sharpen the extra 1% on their skills. Newer players however, should relatively learn a lot more from it.


This entire thread is full of people saying that 90% of BR 100s will study the kill cams for tactical advantage. Meanwhile you're going, nope they'll just skip over it.

Perhaps listen to the experienced players. They know what they're talking about when they say the kill cam gives away too much information.

[Rolfski]

Seriously? What you're talking about is adding a purely visual game mechanic and forcing people to cert into REMOVING it. Your logic is false but also irrelevant because it's based on the effect of something that gets added afterwards. Guess what, they added scope sway afterwards to 6x and NV scope. They're going to add look-to-lock effects to Strikers. Tons of "negative" mechanics get added afterwards, it's called balancing. You might not like this particular mechanic (nobody liked the added scope sway as well) but at least the proposal here is to give you an option to bail out of it, therefore giving you a choice. You won't get that choice with the upcoming Striker changes.


The game's not that difficult. You do the tutorial. You drop pod. You have a gun. And if you get killed in a room and didn't see anyone, well I tell myself to check the corners. Don't dumb down this game because you now better than this. Maybe everybody can fire a gun but getting your surroundings in this game is hard. Way too hard: Almost no predictable game flow, low TTK, fast battle shifting, extremely vertical, way too many angles of attack, extremely chaotic, insane amount of map content, etc. This game is a situational mess and does a very poor job of aiding/teaching players on a tactical level to make sense of it.


The only "learning curve" is all the stuff that gets certed into. But there's clear explanations of what weapons are good at. If your really think that this is all the learning curve in the game, then you need get your self checked, seriously. I'm not even going to counter-argument on this one.


Trying to talk sense into you is like trying to explain to a 1 year old advanced math.Keep it constructive pls or I won't even bother going into your comments.

If I had access to a kill cam, I'd be studying the shit out of it every time and using that information to send more newbies footage of myself cutting through them like a hot knife through butter.
BR 100's already cut through newbies like a hot knife through butter. If they ever get killed by one, I doubt if kill-cam will learn them much from it.
Kill-cams give feedback to people who die. New players die a lot more and will therefore get a lot more feedback from kill-cams than BR100's.

If a BR100 dies, kill-cam will probably more often teach him on how to deal with somebody equally or better skilled, because that's likely the person who killed him.

Thank you! Finally, proof that he's full of it and has no idea what he's talking about.
Fixed the original text for ya to make it more clear. If you have trouble keeping this discussion constructive, I suggest you bail out of it. This tone of voice doesn't add anything to a discussion that tries to address a serious issue in the game.



And really how often do you die to snipers when infils can pack an smg? And if you die to one of those blighters you just gotta shrug.
Get them to look up YouTube. There are videos galore. Wrel, itzmurda, zoranthebear have put hundreds of hours of time into ps2 into helping you stay alive and get more from this game.
As I told before, kill-cam is not about countering sniping, it's about improving situational awareness in general. I also explained that youtubes are not for casuals. This important target group for this game simply doesn't bother searching for them. If this game is not giving them a satisfactory sense of progression from all their numerous deaths IN the game, then they just bail out and SOE has lost another customer.

This entire thread is full of people saying that 90% of BR 100s will study the kill cams for tactical advantage. Meanwhile you're going, nope they'll just skip over it. Whether they check kill-cam footage or not doesn't matter for reasons I explained above.


Perhaps listen to the experienced players. They know what they're talking about when they say the kill cam gives away too much information.
I have learned a lot about some (not all of them) "experienced players" is this forum over the course of time. As much as they are passionate about this game, they also tend to be short-sighted and irrational about it. Case in point: Check my "evil" sig.

[Taramafor]

Your logic is false but also irrelevant because it's based on the effect of something that gets added afterwards. Guess what, they added scope sway afterwards to 6x and NV scope. They're going to add look-to-lock effects to Strikers. Tons of "negative" mechanics get added afterwards, it's called balancing. You might not like this particular mechanic (nobody liked the added scope sway as well) but at least the proposal here is to give you an option to bail out of it, therefore giving you a choice. You won't get that choice with the upcoming Striker changes.

Weapons. Realism. No killcam in life. Etc. Oh wait, you said nothing in this game is realistic. How silly of me to use such logic.

As for your sig, it indicates you have a problem with zergs (which can be a problem at times) but nothing communication and listening on their part won't solve. I managed to rally a zerg to an area earlier when a base was in trouble which called for backup. We all had fun kicking NC dog butt (no offense guys) No camping there. No killcam. Moving from one base to another.

As for situational awareness, it's easy enough after fighting at a base enough times. One base will have terminals on a roof, another will have it indoors only. Killcam does not show this. Getting involved in a not too large fight in the area (or god forbid, NO fight) and scouting around does. I should know, I've done it. I've made an effort. I'm enjoying the game because of that effort (that REALISTIC effort I might add).

But of course only your opinion matters and you'll counter this at every turn. So with that I bid you good day. And good day to this thread. If I stay much longer I risk saying something I might not entirely regret.

[Baneblade]

BR 100's already cut through newbies like a hot knife through butter. If they ever get killed by one, I doubt if kill-cam will learn them much from it.
Kill-cams give feedback to people who die. New players die a lot more and will therefore get a lot more feedback from kill-cams than BR100's.

If a BR100 dies, kill-cam will probably more often teach him on how to deal with somebody equally or better skilled, because that's likely the person who killed him.

Look, the bottom line is that a veteran player will understand what is in the kill cam far more than a newbie will. By the time the newbie knows what to do with what he is seeing, he is no longer a newbie and doesn't need the kill cam anyway.

You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

[Ghoest9]

You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

No hes trying to fix a very specific problen.

One or a few of his friends wont play PS2 because there is no kill cam.

[Ghoest9]

And of course there is the issue that if you are frequently dying to sniper and ambushers - you kind of suck in general.

Dont stop moving - unless you are doing a specific task(like hacking) or you are trying to snipe yourself. but no one needs to snipe - its only marginally useful.

[Calista]

Can we get 3rd person infantry in the game also?

[GOLDENxEAGLE]

I gues it would be fun to see for theone who gets kill but not for the person if he tries to sneak around

[Baneblade]

No hes trying to fix a very specific problen.

One or a few of his friends wont play PS2 because there is no kill cam.

The best fix for that problem is to stop associating with the shallow end of the gene pool.

[Wahooo]

Don't dumb down this game because you now better than this. Maybe everybody can fire a gun but getting your surroundings in this game is hard. Way too hard:
We need other ways of dumbing it down like kill cam.


I have learned a lot about some (not all of them) "experienced players" is this forum over the course of time. As much as they are passionate about this game, they also tend to be short-sighted and irrational about it. Case in point: Check my "evil" sig.

or in other words... 'I write my opinion on teh internets so I am smarter than all of you trolls.'

[JohnnyRicardo]

Somehow I feel perfectly safe that we wont see any sort of kill-cam in this lovely game of ours.

[almalino]

If c'kill cam introduced only for newbies till rank 20 this still can be used by veterans. For example they will create a special low ranked character and join their squad just to inform them where the enemy is using kill cam.

[Rolfski]

Weapons. Realism. No killcam in life. Etc. Oh wait, you said nothing in this game is realistic. How silly of me to use such logic.
As for your sig, it indicates you have a problem with zergs (which can be a problem at times) but nothing communication and listening on their part won't solve. Which part of "Check my "evil" sig." didn't you understand?


As for situational awareness, it's easy enough after fighting at a base enough times. One base will have terminals on a roof, another will have it indoors only. Killcam does not show this. Getting involved in a not too large fight in the area (or god forbid, NO fight) and scouting around does. With situational awareness I don't mean using kill-cam as a scouting-only tool to spot every place on the map. It's more about getting an idea about typical angles and situations people are getting the drop on you.


You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. For you this doesn't exist as you obviously don't care about the ever increasing skill gap for newer players. Well maybe it's time to put down your short-sightedness and start caring, because in the end it will affect you as well.


or in other words... 'I write my opinion on teh internets so I am smarter than all of you trolls.'In other words, you need to start thinking before blindly raging on kill-cam. There are tons of different ways to implement this and the whole notion of "kill-cam completely destroying tactical play" is just a cultivated myth amongst COD/BF3 bashers that doesn't hold any ground.

If c'kill cam introduced only for newbies till rank 20 this still can be used by veterans. For example they will create a special low ranked character and join their squad just to inform them where the enemy is using kill cam. In that case it would be smarter for them to join the enemy with their alt-characters and exactly call out their position/movement/strength over TeamSpeak/Mumble to their outfit mates.

[Kail]

I do apologize if this has been brought up, I skimmed the thread. I don't think a kill-cam is useful because the situations in which it provides meaningful information are actually quite small.

Engagment sizes:

Small (6 people or less total): Useful
Medium (Around a squad or two): Could be useful
Large: Not very useful, too much incidental fire
Zerg (48+ each side): Not useful, too much incidental fire


Cause of death:

Infantry-died-to-vehicle: A kill-cam of the vehicle doesn't provide anything more useful than knowing you were hit by a dalton/prowler/harasser. Vehicles are already quite obvious
Vehicle-died-to-anything: Sure, I get some "wtf just hit me" moments, but by and large you're not confused about why your armor just exploded, and "the straw that broke the camel's bacK" is usually the least important shot there was from the perspective of figuring out what you did wrong or how to improve.
Infantry-died-to-infantry: Has some useful situations.


So the only really useful situations for a kill-cam is small to medium engagements of infantry. Which are the situations where stealth and tactics matter most, and what is hurt the most by a kill-cam.

I completely understand the frustration for new players trying to figure out what happened, but what you want to teach won't come from a death cam like it does in smaller FPS games. Something that would work a lot better would be to show your character, with red markers showing where and what damage hit you. Seeing you took 80% damage from the side via a grenade and then 1 headshot from the back gives the player far more feedback about -why- they died (or seeing that you got shot by 6 different people - probably a good indication you're standing somewhere out in the open)

[Ertwin]

As for your "there's too many angles of attack, it's hard" arguement, there's really only 3. Above, Below, and Even. All the new players have to do is be aware that.

As people have said, there's plenty of tutorials on youtube, and on the fourms. If someone is having trouble adjusting to the learning curve, they can either ask someone in game for help, or look at tutorials.

You countered that they don't want to do that because they're casual players. Well that's the crux isn't it. If they can't be bothered to help themselves by accessing the tools already available, adding a kill cam won't help them either.

It's not to much to ask new players to invest some time in learning the game. If they don't care enough about the game to look at the bevy of tutorials or ask for help, they likely don't care enough about the game to stay long term anyway.

That isn't elitism, or a screw the casuals attitude, it's simply the truth. If they aren't already doing even the bare minimum to learn the game, a kill cam won't help them either.

[Wahooo]

As for your "there's too many angles of attack, it's hard" arguement, there's really only 3. Above, Below, and Even. All the new players have to do is be aware that.

As people have said, there's plenty of tutorials on youtube, and on the fourms. If someone is having trouble adjusting to the learning curve, they can either ask someone in game for help, or look at tutorials.

You countered that they don't want to do that because they're casual players. Well that's the crux isn't it. If they can't be bothered to help themselves by accessing the tools already available, adding a kill cam won't help them either.

It's not to much to ask new players to invest some time in learning the game. If they don't care enough about the game to look at the bevy of tutorials or ask for help, they likely don't care enough about the game to stay long term anyway.

That isn't elitism, or a screw the casuals attitude, it's simply the truth. If they aren't already doing even the bare minimum to learn the game, a kill cam won't help them either.


I don't know how many different ways or times we can say the same thing. But this is a pretty good summary of the thread.

I AM NOT CONCERNED ABOUT SOME NEW PLAYERS LEARNING MY 'SECRETS' AND KEEPING AN EDGE. IVE SAID THIS REPEATEDLY BUT YET YOU ROLF KEEP TELLING ME WHAT YOU THINK I MY THINKING IS. I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT DONT NEED A CRUTCH TO HAVE OR DEVELOP SITUATIONAL AWARENESS USING IT AGAINST ME.

Maybe Planetside as an idea is just destined to be a niche game. A big complaint about PS1 was that it was so new player unfriendly, and in PS2 there was a large focus on dumbing down... er altering the game to reduce the entry barrier. Personally I think at release they failed miserably with that, no tutorial and drop pod into the biggest fight possible more often than not behind enemy lines. But there really is only so much you can do, and the game itself IS chaotic, frenetic mess. Noises all over and vehicle shells from who knows where, and light assaults and harassers buzzing in and out and SMG infils and 1hk snipers.
Long and the short of it, we want a game that IS a challenge to master, fun BECAUSE of the challenge, fun BECAUSE of the WTF moments, fun BECAUSE of the chaos. Most of us remember being new. I remember being new in PS1 when most players had already been playing for a few years. I remember playing for hours and having KD's of ~ 5/75. But continuing because the massive fight the combined arms, the movement across such a huge and varied landscapes. It took me years to get MEDIOCRE at that game, and this one. I'm NOT a good player, i'm mediocre at best, but what I can say is that looking around, taking in the scenery, and taking a few minutes to watch a battle or investigate the scenery is of major importance and simply rushing out into a battle is only going to get you killed over and over again. A kill cam doesn't solve that, maybe part of the tutorial should be simply a warning this is NOT the same shooter you are used to. If you go rushing out to run and gun you will die in horrible ways, wait and look and think about where you are going first.

You through this entire thread have really failed to show us a benefit of a kill cam other than:
It might help some new players develop some situational awareness, of some specific situations.

Yet, you've ignored the negatives that it gives MORE power and information to experienced players. Your "nope it won't I stopped watching it in BF/COD" is hardly a counter to the MANY people in this thread agreeing with the thought and my main concern. EVERYONE in this game dies to WTF moments. Even BR100's die in ways that surprise them and they don't really know what happened. But you know what? They don't rage quit over it, maybe they think about it and if it happens again THEN they will probably figure it out.

I don't know who these people are you talk about that need the kill cam to learn to look up or turn around but the way you have described the people and situations a kill cam would be beneficial... I (and a lot of the responders here) really fail to see how it would help them . Meanwhile, those who don't need it (you know the big bad experienced players) would be able to use it to a pretty much get more power. Knowledge is everything in this game.

So, a kill cam is either of no use in 95% of the deaths in this game or it is really only of benefit to the more experienced and knowledgeable players who you are worried protecting the noobs from.

So no it isn't blind dismissing of killcam. It isn't BF/COD rage (honestly in this whole thread there has been like 2 posts that were of that sort.
There are tons of different ways to implement this and the whole notion of "kill-cam completely destroying tactical play" is just a cultivated myth amongst COD/BF3 bashers that doesn't hold any ground.
In what way has this been argued from a bashing COD/BF3 standpoint? It hasn't. People are saying there are reasons it is in COD/BF3 and see why but these are different games and different paces, and a killcam DOES have a negative effect on PS2 tactical play. IT DOES HOLD GROUND you are talking to experienced players all of whom are not concerned about new players learning most of the people in this thread WANT more people in game, WANT new players to learn. It means bigger, better, more challenging fights. BUT we don't want our capable enemies to be given that kind of tactical knowledge about us.
Whatever way you implement the kill cam. It either has no real benefit, so then WHY? implement? or it gives too much info so it is a bad idea to implement.

[Memeotis]

How about a feature that allows you to 'save' killcam, but only allows you to access the clip an hour later?

[SerethiX]

How about a feature that allows you to 'save' killcam, but only allows you to access the clip an hour later?

Sounds better than every other suggestion to kill cams.

It should be possible to record the combat data on PC, not the video footage, and replay it in a special client for it, where you can view it from every POV and free camera angles, to analysis tactics and maneuvers.

The record could "easily" be done by recording the network stream, or am I wrong?

SerethiX - www.serethi.de

[Baneblade]

For you this doesn't exist as you obviously don't care about the ever increasing skill gap for newer players. Well maybe it's time to put down your short-sightedness and start caring, because in the end it will affect you as well.

I don't think you normally care either, but someone you want to play PS2 rage quit over something that was likely innocuous, so you figured you would try a Children's Crusade. Well, the Moors don't care who you send, you still aren't welcome in Killcamlessland.

[Rolfski]

I do apologize if this has been brought up, I skimmed the thread. I don't think a kill-cam is useful because the situations in which it provides meaningful information are actually quite small.

Engagment sizes:

Small (6 people or less total): Useful
Medium (Around a squad or two): Could be useful
Large: Not very useful, too much incidental fire
Zerg (48+ each side): Not useful, too much incidental fire


Cause of death:

Infantry-died-to-vehicle: A kill-cam of the vehicle doesn't provide anything more useful than knowing you were hit by a dalton/prowler/harasser. Vehicles are already quite obvious
Vehicle-died-to-anything: Sure, I get some "wtf just hit me" moments, but by and large you're not confused about why your armor just exploded, and "the straw that broke the camel's bacK" is usually the least important shot there was from the perspective of figuring out what you did wrong or how to improve.
Infantry-died-to-infantry: Has some useful situations.


So the only really useful situations for a kill-cam is small to medium engagements of infantry. Which are the situations where stealth and tactics matter most, and what is hurt the most by a kill-cam.

I completely understand the frustration for new players trying to figure out what happened, but what you want to teach won't come from a death cam like it does in smaller FPS games. Something that would work a lot better would be to show your character, with red markers showing where and what damage hit you. Seeing you took 80% damage from the side via a grenade and then 1 headshot from the back gives the player far more feedback about -why- they died (or seeing that you got shot by 6 different people - probably a good indication you're standing somewhere out in the open)
In large, chaotic fights it is still useful because it gives you better understanding of the tactical situation (like getting flanked). Also, there tends to be a lot more farming going on in big fights and kill-cam can prevent in running into the same farm twice.
And in infantry vs vehicles situations, it's particularly helpful against tank farms.

As for your solution to focus on your character instead of the enemy after you die, I consider that kill-cam as well. As I said, there are tons of ways to implement kill-cam.

As for your "there's too many angles of attack, it's hard" arguement, there's really only 3. Above, Below, and Even. Mathematics doesn't agree with you. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle)


As people have said, there's plenty of tutorials on youtube, and on the fourms. If someone is having trouble adjusting to the learning curve, they can either ask someone in game for help, or look at tutorials.
Good game design shouldn't rely on external sources to make you a better player.



Long and the short of it, we want a game that IS a challenge to master, fun BECAUSE of the challenge, fun BECAUSE of the WTF moments, fun BECAUSE of the chaos. A challenge to master, fine. But it also needs to be easy and fun to get into and right now, the game is neither of that. As a new player, you just die and die over again, looking at some depressing death screen that teaches you nothing, nor does it make your death more fun or entertaining. And the depressing and useless KDR staring at you doesn't help either. It's just bad game design.


Yet, you've ignored the negatives that it gives MORE power and information to experienced players. Told you before. That's simply not true. New players die a lot more, therefore watch a lot more kill-cam and therefore learn at a much faster pace.
BR 100's die occasionally and when they do, they most of the time already know what killed them. Occasionally it actually teaches them something and therefore they learn at a much slower pace.

This is exactly what a kill-cam intends to do: It levels the playing field and makes dying a lot more fun and rewarding.

[Ertwin]

Good game design shouldn't rely on external sources to make you a better player.


I've been playing video games for 26 years, up until the internet was a thing, they always had manuals, you know, an outside source. For a console game or a single player game you could make an argument that looking things up online shouldn't be mandatory due to no guarantee of internet.

However PS2 is an online game, everyone who plays it has internet access, and no excuse not to look for help online if they need it. Consider the online resources as a detailed extended manual.

But if you choose to ignore that, you completely skipped over the fact that new players can ask for help in game (in game resource) There are lots of players who are more than willing to help out newbies with everything you claim they need a kill cam for.

But you can argue that they don't want to/shouldn't have to do X, Y, or Z all day, but the point remains that if they don't care enough to do XYZ, a kill cam isn't going to be a magical cure all.

[Ruffdog]

I also explained that youtubes are not for casuals. This important target group for this game simply doesn't bother searching for them. If this game is not giving them a satisfactory sense of progression from all their numerous deaths IN the game, then they just bail out and SOE has lost another customer.

Good game design shouldn't rely on external sources to make you a better player.

Then what if the player get links to these tutorials from SOE when downloading the 8 gigs or whatever it is now? If casuals can't be arsed to see them then, they are lost from the start.

It also really needs to be more emphasised that:


You WILL die a lot.
This is not important, life is cheap. Sometimes you have to die.


If they don't get a buzz the first time they suicide-charge a cap point alongside some buddies and kick out another faction, then they should stick to pwning in COD and BF. That's not being elitist; this game's not for everyone and it should stop dumbing down to pretend that it is.

[Ertwin]

Links on the launch page works, I think they had a few when the game first launched.

[Klypto]

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics.

I'm sorry what? There should be camping in this game. Lots of it. There are snipers. That's what they do.


If baddies can't handle it they definitely shouldn't be playing.

[Ertwin]

I'm sorry what? There should be camping in this game. Lots of it. There are snipers. That's what they do.


If baddies can't handle it they definitely shouldn't be playing.

Or you know, there's the whole defending cap points. Being punished for doing one of the primary goals of the game is the height of stupidity.

[Wahooo]

You through this entire thread have really failed to show us a benefit of a kill cam other than:
It might help some new players develop some situational awareness of some specific situations.


A challenge to master, fine. But it also needs to be easy and fun to get into and right now, the game is neither of that. As a new player, you just die and die over again, looking at some depressing death screen that teaches you nothing, nor does it make your death more fun or entertaining. And the depressing and useless KDR staring at you doesn't help either. It's just bad game design.

Told you before. That's simply not true. New players die a lot more, therefore watch a lot more kill-cam and therefore learn at a much faster pace.
BR 100's die occasionally and when they do, they most of the time already know what killed them. Occasionally it actually teaches them something and therefore they learn at a much slower pace.

This is exactly what a kill-cam intends to do: It levels the playing field and makes dying a lot more fun and rewarding.

Where does KDR stare you in the face? It isn't on the kill screen, it isn't on the HUD. If you hit tab it is there as just another part of your play session stats. It can be a nice metric of how you are playing for the day, it can be ignored or it can be stared at lovingly while you stroke your own epeen. It is hardly an issue and having it there hardly takes away from the enjoyment of a bad player.

EVERYONE in this game dies a lot. Even someone that has a 4 or 5 KDR dies. And as I just pointed out and you ignored EVERYONE dies to WTF moments, and as I pointed out repeatedly yet you still don't seem to grasp a better player who already has the situational awareness is going to gain more, and utilize the kill cam better than the noob. New player has an AA max and happens to get into a good area flanking all the ESFs focusing on a battle. Gets a kill on a vet, who has reduced timer and knows the map. Vet comes back and kills that AA nest. No way the same thing is reversed with a new pilot vs a vet with AA, BUT that vet in the ESF will be able to come back and hammer a vet in the AA utilizing the kill cam.

Dieing more often isn't helped by a killcam when it is only some situational times that teach you about your death.

How exactly does a kill cam make dieing fun? There are silly deaths, team mate shoots down a lib and the shrapnel falls on you or running in an outfit convoy and get knocked sideways and roll down a cliff in a sunderer killing a whole squad, kill cam does what?
I don't see that from the BF killcam you posted a page ago that turns and highlights the guy that killed you, how does that make dieing fun?


You through this entire thread have really failed to show us a benefit of a kill cam other than:
It might help some new players develop some situational awareness of some specific situations.

[Taramafor]

Let's not forget ALL THE FRIENDLY FIRE AND RUNNING OVER TEAM MATES! Looking at idiots that aren't aware of their surroundings would make me more depressed for sure, and a killcam wouldn't solve anything there because there's already a BEEP with a message.

Just had to get that out there. >_>

[Rolfski]

However PS2 is an online game, everyone who plays it has internet access, and no excuse not to look for help online if they need it. Consider the online resources as a detailed extended manual.
It's critical for appropriate learning mechanisms to be provided within the game itself if you want to attract a more casual gamer, which is definitely a target audience for this title. Especially if it's F2P. Most people have less patience with free titles and can't be bothered with YouTube tutorials. If the experience is frustrating, they just uninstall it an move on to the next shooter.
Ask Higby how many customers PS2 lost because of not having an in-game tutorial, despite providing a whole YouTube guide series. He will tell you that the in-game tutorial did wonders for player retention, which is key in a F2P business model.


If they don't get a buzz the first time they suicide-charge a cap point alongside some buddies and kick out another faction, then they should stick to pwning in COD and BF. That's not being elitist; this game's not for everyone and it should stop dumbing down to pretend that it is.
For this game to survive they just can't rely on a niche hardcore player base that slowly dies out over time as PS1 did. F2P means you need lots of players all the time. As much as you might despise the COD/BF crowd, for SOE they're definitely a target audience.

I'm sorry what? There should be camping in this game. Lots of it. There are snipers. That's what they do. Kill-cam doesn't stop you from camping. You either stay on your camping spot and accept the risk of people coming after you (which can be used as a baiting tactic in itself) or you move to the next camping spot.

Or you know, there's the whole defending cap points. Being punished for doing one of the primary goals of the game is the height of stupidity. If you defend a cap point you're most likely to do that from a well known position, covered by cross fire from your team mates. Kill-cam isn't going to change that. Knowing where the defending enemy is doesn't automatically mean you can easily take him out. Good defence typically involves holding on to a position the enemy is aware of and keeps throwing forces at. Hardly any "punishment" there.


Where does KDR stare you in the face? It isn't on the kill screen, it isn't on the HUD. If you hit tab it is there as just another part of your play session stats. It can be a nice metric of how you are playing for the day, it can be ignored or it can be stared at lovingly while you stroke your own epeen. It is hardly an issue and having it there hardly takes away from the enjoyment of a bad player.Believe me, KDR DOES take away a lot of enjoyment from the game. I've seen every outfit I'm in getting corrupted by it at some point but let's leave that to another discussion.


New player has an AA max and happens to get into a good area flanking all the ESFs focusing on a battle. Gets a kill on a vet, who has reduced timer and knows the map. Vet comes back and kills that AA nest. No way the same thing is reversed with a new pilot vs a vet with AA, BUT that vet in the ESF will be able to come back and hammer a vet in the AA utilizing the kill cam.

The upcoming resource changes (no timers any more) will make it so that the new pilot can take quick revenge as well.
Nine out of ten times you already knew where that AA nest was before you died. In case you did not you can likely detract it from the dead marker on the map and the red hud flashes direction.
As has been argued in this topic before, kill-cam is not a good revenge tool because revenge generally being pointless in this game. Game play is generally to hectic and fluent for that. Chances are the front line is already moved by the time you revisit that AA nest or the enemy has now air of its own to prevent you from taking revenge.
If you shoot down an ESF you can anticipate him revisiting your position and have a trap for him ready next time. Every BR can figure that out so no kill-cam advantages for vets here.



Dieing more often isn't helped by a killcam when it is only some situational times that teach you about your death.It is actually. Dying more often with kill-cam means more often you will be provided with information that teach you about situational awareness. There's just no denying that.


How exactly does a kill cam make dieing fun? There are silly deaths, team mate shoots down a lib and the shrapnel falls on you or running in an outfit convoy and get knocked sideways and roll down a cliff in a sunderer killing a whole squad, kill cam does what?
I don't see that from the BF killcam you posted a page ago that turns and highlights the guy that killed you, how does that make dieing fun?
Anything besides the horrible death screen we have now will make dying more entertaining and rewarding. No matter how you implement a kill-cam, it couldn't be worse than what we have now.

Let's not forget ALL THE FRIENDLY FIRE AND RUNNING OVER TEAM MATES! Looking at idiots that aren't aware of their surroundings would make me more depressed for sure, and a killcam wouldn't solve anything there because there's already a BEEP with a message. You can always skip the kill-cam footage. No need to get depressed by it.


You through this entire thread have really failed to show us a benefit of a kill cam other than:
It might help some new players develop some situational awareness of some specific situations.
This is more than enough motivation to reconsider kill-cam. New player satisfaction and retention is absolutely key to sustain a F2P business model. Especially when this entire thread has failed to show any severe disadvantage of kill-cam.

[Thunderhawk]

Wibble


*This post has as much sense as the original Topic.

[Wahooo]

Funny how the counter to the examples of how kill cam information could be used by vets or those that have awareness is to show kill cam isn't needed.

[Rolfski]

Funny how the counter to the examples of how kill cam information could be used by vets or those that have awareness is to show kill cam isn't needed.
If anything, these examples show that the whole notice of OMG-vets-will-profit-more-than-newbs-and-kill-cam-will-ruin-the game is just a hypocrite, bloated myth, typically cultivated by short-sighted vets that in reality show no interest in new players at all, besides game mechanics increasing their edge on them so they can easier stomp them into the ground until this game becomes an inaccessible ghost town.

More instant, comprehensible and intuitive feedback about your failings is desperately needed in a game with such an increasingly steep learning and skill curve.
Kill-cam could be a very valuable tool for that but it should not be the only tool . Tons of other mechanics should (and will) be changed to make the game easier to get into, like: In-game mission system, more in-game tutorials, better target practising at VR, easier outfit recruiting, better stat system, better social tools etc.

[Phantomdestiny]

If anything, these examples show that the whole notice of OMG-vets-will-profit-more-than-newbs-and-kill-cam-will-ruin-the game is just a hypocrite, bloated myth, typically cultivated by short-sighted vets that in reality show no interest in new players at all, besides game mechanics increasing their edge on them so they can easier stomp them into the ground until this game becomes an inaccessible ghost town.

More instant, comprehensible and intuitive feedback about your failings is desperately needed in a game with such an increasingly steep learning and skill curve.
Kill-cam could be a very valuable tool for that but it should not be the only tool . Tons of other mechanics should (and will) be changed to make the game easier to get into, like: In-game mission system, more in-game tutorials, better target practising at VR, easier outfit recruiting, better stat system, better social tools etc.

look we are tired of hearing about kill cams okay , they hurt tactical outfits . i myself use a silencer (and so does the rest of my squad) .what's the point of it if someone can just see me after i killed him and then alert everyone of my squad's position. Kill cams give too much of an advantage and there is a good damn reason we asked to get rid of them in alpha seriously Rolfski enough is enough let's move on to something else because clearly most of us don't agree with you

[PredatorFour]

End thread.. don't post anymore.... put it on a boat and let it drift away whilst set on fire... Give this thread the burial it deserves... let it sail into obscurity into necroland...:)

[Taramafor]

let it sail into obscurity into necroland...:)

Stop posting in it then. :evil:

[kubacheski]

End thread.. don't post anymore.... put it on a boat and let it drift away whilst set on fire... Give this thread the burial it deserves... let it sail into obscurity into necroland...:)

Yea but there's a kill cam on that boat so we all can still see it after its gone.

Seriously tho, removal of kill cams will be listed as an "optimization" for better performance. of the game, not you snooping ghosts trying to get a leg up.

[Rolfski]

look we are tired of hearing about kill cams okay , they hurt tactical outfits . As has been argued before, it's a myth. If anything, it adds new tactical options.


i myself use a silencer (and so does the rest of my squad) .what's the point of it if someone can just see me after i killed him and then alert everyone of my squad's position. This argument has also been beaten before, look it up the topic. Stealth tools are still perfectly viable with kill cam.


Kill cams give too much of an advantage and there is a good damn reason we asked to get rid of them in alpha Again, this was discussed before in this topic. The whole alpha discussion was largely a joke and the state of the game has been clearly changed in the mean time.

seriously Rolfski enough is enough Then don't bring up the same flawed arguments over and over again. Either bring in a new angle in the discussion or just don't bother with it if you're tired of it.

This whole collective blind kill-cam hate is more about elitest sentiments than it is about proper game design if you ask me. Especially when read some of the ridiculous non-constructive remarks in this topic.
It kinda reminds me of this whole OMFG-the-game-is-dumbed-down-into-oblivion! bitter vet rage we had going on this forum a year ago. People just too blind with anger to be open to rational arguments or open for seeing the big picture.

[Ertwin]

if you ask me.


Nobody did.

[Blynd]

As has been argued before, it's a myth. If anything, it adds new tactical options.

This argument has also been beaten before, look it up the topic. Stealth tools are still perfectly viable with kill cam.

Again, this was discussed before in this topic. The whole alpha discussion was largely a joke and the state of the game has been clearly changed in the mean time.

Then don't bring up the same flawed arguments over and over again. Either bring in a new angle in the discussion or just don't bother with it if you're tired of it.

This whole collective blind kill-cam hate is more about elitest sentiments than it is about proper game design if you ask me. Especially when read some of the ridiculous non-constructive remarks in this topic.
It kinda reminds me of this whole OMFG-the-game-is-dumbed-down-into-oblivion! bitter vet rage we had going on this forum a year ago. People just too blind with anger to be open to rational arguments or open for seeing the big picture.

Look if someone wants a killcam so badly go play bf3 in nolb mode or cod or tf2 bf3 was only any good on hardcore servers with no killcam as it spoils the game as people know where your set up.

Anyway its all moot its not coming back so stfu about it we don't want it in this game. my 13 year old has no issue with the learning curve of the game and when he was 7 he also had no issue with the learning curve of planetside 1.


End of story.


Good night


And if you don't like it roflski just shut up about it before hammma brings the hamma down and closes this thread (prays for it to happen )

[Mastachief]

As has been argued before, it's a myth. If anything, it adds new tactical options.

Utter bollocks, any tactical outfit worth it's k/d will tell you, you are full of shit.

This argument has also been beaten before, look it up the topic. Stealth tools are still perfectly viable with kill cam.

More rubbish, using a silencer to mask where you are oh wait "guys hes in that corner in building x i can see him on kill cam" 6 guys descend on him

Again, this was discussed before in this topic. The whole alpha discussion was largely a joke and the state of the game has been clearly changed in the mean time.

Yeh it hasn't

Then don't bring up the same flawed arguments over and over again. Either bring in a new angle in the discussion or just don't bother with it if you're tired of it.

The arguments presented by 99% of the people posting in this thread are against killcam and perfectly sound only you are having issue with this because you are pushing your own agenda that is driven by the fact that after playing this game for more than a year your situational awareness still sucks so you are seeking a crutch to further your desire to make it EASY. Nothing will fix this issue for you as good players will always make better use of the tools at their disposal

This whole collective blind kill-cam hate is more about elitest sentiments than it is about proper game design if you ask me.

This is a case of you being unable to accept your idea is a bad one.

Especially when read some of the ridiculous non-constructive remarks in this topic.

People have provided you with plenty of constructive comments based on a variety of experience and gameplay types, you again choose that anything that does not conform to your ideals is "ridiculous non-constructive"

It kinda reminds me of this whole OMFG-the-game-is-dumbed-down-into-oblivion! bitter vet rage we had going on this forum a year ago. People just too blind with anger to be open to rational arguments or open for seeing the big picture.

Blinkers on yet again



This game is one that is supposed to have a learning curve, it is supposed to have some complexities. Learn the game or go back to callofbattleduty1337 round based FPS games, the tools are there for people to use if you lack the intelligence or motivation to use those tools you have no right to ruin it for everyone else.

It was massively unpopular with the playerbase and still is.

[Baptist]

Sorry I haven’t read all the posts in this thread, but since I log into this forum every day I kinda half expected this thread to be over a week ago, Its obvious from what I have read that a large percentage of the player base would be against this, hell I even have guys in my Outfit who are against the idea of hit indicators, never mind Kill Cam.

Myself I’m not that extreme, in regards to Kill Cam however I would be against it coming into the game as it would take away from the immersion that Planetside offers, If I get killed by a Tank or sniper, I rarely, not never but rarely do I not know roughly the direction the incoming fire originated from, which enables me to bark orders for my squad to get eyes on that Target and locate it.

This is another small but fun aspect of the game, I’m working with my guys on an objective and problem solving, Kill Cam would take away from this, granted new players might not have the backup from a group playing and communicating, but that’s up to them to Join an Outfit.

Instead of asking SOE for new features which help the Lone Wolf, we should be asking for more Outfit support, hell even an in game mailing system would be higher on my wish list.

Well done rolfski on fighting your corner but in my opinion you should chalk this one up to I agree to disagree.

[Phreec]

I'm glad SOE is at least somewhat fighting the tide here.

Call of Duty has gone to shit. Battlefield has gone to shit. There's just too many shooter franchises that have been dumbed down and filled with such crutches to appeal to every god damn monkey that manages to turn on their console and find a Shooter to play. I sincerely hope Planetside doesn't follow the same road any further than what it already has...

[Rolfski]

This is another small but fun aspect of the game, I’m working with my guys on an objective and problem solving, Kill Cam would take away from th/is It's a bullshit myth, believe me. I've been playing shooters since the first MOH and I have since then seen this whole anti kill-cam argument over the years developing in some e-peen crap.

[Ertwin]

It's a bullshit myth, believe me. I've been playing shooters since the first MOH and I have since then seen this whole anti kill-cam argument over the years developing in some e-peen crap.

Just because something hasn't happened to you personally doesn't make it a bullshit myth. This entire thread you've dismissed every argument against kill cam because either you don't have enough experience to use the advantages it gives, or simply because it's an argument against kill cam.

However just because you haven't personally witnessed something or can't take advantage of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's as if you were playing quake, and were saying rocket jump should be removed or made into a simple button press (or TF2 if you're age deficient) just because it's difficult, and you and your friends can't do it.

Rocket jumping provided a learning curve, I never mastered it, and I played quake for years. However I was still able to play, and do well without rocket jumping. I never once considered (until now) that they could just make a button you press to instantly rocket jump. However if they did that to make rocket jumping easier for the newbies, the folks who were really good at rocket jumping already would still be better at it, and would do it faster and more efficiently than any newbies it might help.

Planetside 2 is the same. Yes there's a learning curve, but it's there for a reason. It's easy to get into but difficult to master. That's the point. A game isn't fun if it's too easy because there's no sense of accomplishment. If the game shows you everything you do wrong (at the expense of a majority of the stealth play, which you'll learn when you have more experience at an open world mmofps as opposed to the regular FPS games you're used to) you'll never get that awesome feeling of figuring things out for yourself.

If you're always shown what others are doing, and copying them, you'll never try something new that nobody has tried before. Not having a kill cam allows new players to learn and improve the overall strategies, which yes as a result makes the learning curve a bit harder, however that's not a bad thing. You don't have to climb to the top of the curve. All a causal player has to do is play the game, there will be people to urge the new players to attack or defend bases, there will be people to help them on the way. Without kill cam, players can climb the learning curve at their own pace, and choose how far up they want to go. There's no shame in staying near the bottom just shooting everyone who isn't wearing the same colour armour as you.

A kill cam might act an elevator for the lower part of the learning curve, but it damages the higher parts, the stealth gameplay is at the very least damaged, and the learning curve turns into a cliff towards the top as those who are good at quickly gaining information from kill cams completely leave those who believe that kill cams don't reveal anything useful in the dust.

So why not allow the helping hands of other players assist the new players up the learning curve rather than damaging it by installing a lift.

[Blynd]

Kill cams are a bad idea end of argument

[Mastachief]

It's a bullshit myth, believe me. I've been playing shooters since the first MOH and I have since then seen this whole anti kill-cam argument over the years developing in some e-peen crap.

I've been playing shooters since before doom... wait yeh thats not relevant.

This is about planetside 2 and you are wrong and have no substantial planetside experience to back up your claims.

[CrankyTRex]

I'm kind of impressed this thread is still going.

Kill cams are an unfortunate crutch that really don't belong in any FPS in which a player can respawn, but this one especially.

The problem with dying in this game is not that it's difficult to figure out what did the killing or where it is, but that it's fast and frequent due to mechanics that encourage farming.

The only thing I'd be in favor of in terms of additional post-kill info would be one-liners (presumably text) about what happened. They could be either simple "You just got sniped" or they could be fun and whimsical "Way to stop that tank round with your face!"

[PredatorFour]

I too can't believe this thread is still going, such ridiculous claims for it to be in the game. *grabs popcorn*

[Falcon_br]

I'm kind of impressed this thread is still going.

Kill cams are an unfortunate crutch that really don't belong in any FPS in which a player can respawn, but this one especially.

The problem with dying in this game is not that it's difficult to figure out what did the killing or where it is, but that it's fast and frequent due to mechanics that encourage farming.

The only thing I'd be in favor of in terms of additional post-kill info would be one-liners (presumably text) about what happened. They could be either simple "You just got sniped" or they could be fun and whimsical "Way to stop that tank round with your face!"

10 pages and didn´t comment anything.
The idea is so stupid that I really don´t understand why this topic was not closed on page 2. I was avoiding to come here, because every time I read it, I lose faith in humanity.
Please, make it stop!

[Baneblade]

I'm kind of impressed this thread is still going.

It's still going in the sense that it is Homer Simpson in a boxing ring and hasn't remember to get knocked out yet.

[CrankyTRex]

It's still going in the sense that it is Homer Simpson in a boxing ring and hasn't remember to get knocked out yet.

Hehe, true, but you gotta admire somebody willing to invest that much time into being wrong.

[Wahooo]

but you gotta admire somebody willing to invest that much time into being wrong.

That is SIG worthy

[CrankyTRex]

That is SIG worthy

Feel free to use it. :)

[almalino]

I like to sneak as an infiltrator into heavily defensed base and start killing defenders from the back hiding in dark places. This is a great tactics to help my platoon to attack the base.

Kill cam will eliminate this tactical game play altogether. And please, do not advise me to move all the time. It is not possible to do in a base where enemies are everywhere, so I need to hide.

So, no to kill cam.

[tricome]

No it's for kiddie shooters like cod and bf lets just keep it there. OP you want a killcam then play cod or bf stop trying to dumb PS2 down to their level.

It's just something new players will have to learn like we ALL did. I know thats a dirty word for you instant action, add running n gunning cod types but there you have it.

[Rolfski]

I like to sneak as an infiltrator into heavily defensed base and start killing defenders from the back hiding in dark places. This is a great tactics to help my platoon to attack the base.

Kill cam will eliminate this tactical game play altogether. And please, do not advise me to move all the time. It is not possible to do in a base where enemies are everywhere, so I need to hide.

So, no to kill cam.Kill-cam "eliminating this tactical game play altogether" is simply not true. You can still camp in your hidey hole but now you have a few tactical options to consider:

Take the risk that people come not after you. This is actually a viable risk to take as the game is generally too fluid, hectic and fast paced for people to go on a revenge mission. By the time your enemy has respawned and moved himself to your position, good chances are the tactical situation has already drastically changed to make such a mission viable in the first place.
Anticipate people taking revenge on you and have your AP mines planted along the route to your spot. Using the same kill-cam against your enemy "exploiting" it and instead killing him twice can be a very rewarding tactic.
Relocate to have a fire line on your last position, again to use kill-cam as a tactic, or just to re-engage is just an easy thing to do in this game. No matter how you look at it, the scale of this game is so big that you always have a different camping spot easily available to you, even in cramped tower fights.

No it's for kiddie shooters like cod and bf lets just keep it there. OP you want a killcam then play cod or bf stop trying to dumb PS2 down to their level.

It's just something new players will have to learn like we ALL did. I know thats a dirty word for you instant action, add running n gunning cod types but there you have it.
This exactly illustrates why the whole kill-cam discussion has deteriorated over the years in some epeen crap.

It's precisely this stunning arrogance and hardcore gamer elitism that has rotten not only this but other communities as well. No matter how you look at it, COD and BF are great multi-player fps series that have become popular for a very good reason. Bashing it because it make you feel more superior is telling more about you than about these games.
Kill-cam did not "ruin" COD, nor did it "ruin" BF and there's really no reason to assume it will "ruin" PS 2.

Hehe, true, but you gotta admire somebody willing to invest that much time into being wrong.
I was actually thinking exactly the same thing about all these flawed anti kill-cam sentiments that so far have all been counter-argued.

In the end btw it's not about a kill-cam feature. You can actually implement kill-cam in such a way that it would not give away your exact position at all, which would instantly kill 90% of all the rage against it in this topic.

If we forget kill-cams for a second: What is really underlying this discussion is the need for in-game mechanics that will help new and casual gamers overcome the ever-increasing skill gap a bit and make the game less of a frustrating experience for them.
And I'm kinda disappointed to see (although totally to be expected on a hardcore newbie-unfriendly vet forum like this) that people fail to see this need.
Instead they come up with all kinds of flawed arguments like "we had to learn it the hard way too", "look it up if you want to improve", "ask others to get better", "we don't need no dumbing down for COD kiddies".

Don't get me wrong: There's nothing wrong with a steep learning curve or a high skill ceiling. But for this game to not end as an inaccessible, BR100-only ghost town or Eve Online-like rocket science nerd-only resort, you need to make sure that:

Getting into it is a fun and rewarding process that doesn't require outside help. Right now it's really not. The depressing death screen is only one aspect that needs to be improved. And as much as this game relies on teamwork and tactics/strategies that can be looked up on Youtube, most people still start as a casual lone wolver and don't bother with external tutorials. .
Gaining skill vs reward is not a linear curve. The game was designed for a fully certed-out player to be only 20% better vs a new player, which is certainly not the case if you take game experience into account. Air being a good example of this. There shouldn't be a limit to what you can improve upon in this game but the dominance it will give you over newer or casual players should follow a diminishing curve.

[Wahooo]

I was actually thinking exactly the same thing about all these flawed anti kill-cam sentiments that so far have all been counter-argued.

Nothing flawed about the anti-kill cam sentiments, and they have been counter opinion'd by you and only you. You have really failed to propose a valid counter argument to most of the points brought up, and more often than not argue yourself in a circle demonstrating how worthless the kill cam might be, then go find one of the FEW rage posts, or if there hasn't been one bring up the threads from a year ago. Kill cam is a flawed mechanic and simply doesn't belong. This isn't elitist or hard core, it is just someone who enjoys some of the cat and mouse elements of the game. The reason I like to play against other people rather than PVE shooters.

In the end btw it's not about a kill-cam feature. You can actually implement kill-cam in such a way that it would not give away your exact position at all, which would instantly kill 90% of all the rage against it in this topic.
And eliminate its usefulness... THIS is how you argue in circles. You propose different contradictory solutions. A kill cam that shows what? Enough information that a newb learns but not enough information that a skilled/aware person benefits more? That cannot exist. No matter what you do with it, it is either useless or MORE usable by the one with more information and in both ways something that punishes much of what I actually find fun to do in this game.

I'm not hard core. I'm not elitist. I worry about the players who are already better than me being able to gain more information from when/if I kill them. I am already worried about them. It is not flawed or wrong for me to think this is more information than I want to give up about when/where I am.

There is plenty of concern and care about the new player experience. Many vets and high BR players share that concern. But do you know what is never brought up in those discussions and with reason? A kill cam. It is a bad idea and you should feel bad about continuing to try and opoionate for it.

[Taramafor]

Take the risk that people come not after you. This is actually a viable risk to take as the game is generally too fluid, hectic and fast paced for people to go on a revenge mission.

Soo... You want kill cam so people can get revenge?

Anticipate people taking revenge on you and have your AP mines planted along the route to your spot. Using the same kill-cam against your enemy "exploiting" it and instead killing him twice can be a very rewarding tactic.

Yep. Revenge. And baiting. Using kill cam. I love how you try to use logic to state killcam can avoid doing this yet claim outright it's what you want from it.

Kill-cam did not "ruin" COD, nor did it "ruin" BF and there's really no reason to assume it will "ruin" PS 2.

Actually, it did. It was put in, didn't work, then taken out. No one wanted it.

[CrankyTRex]

Forgive me for cherry picking some of your response, but this thread is long enough as it is.


I was actually thinking exactly the same thing about all these flawed anti kill-cam sentiments that so far have all been counter-argued.


There's a difference between countering an argument and simply refusing to accept it as true.

As numerous posters have demonstrated, the kill cams offer far more benefits to people who already know the game than to those who don't, so if your goal is to close the skill gap, then a kill cam is clearly not the solution.

As I pointed out in my earlier post, the skill gap problem isn't about not knowing where you were killed from, but the mechanics that not only encourage, but actually require, farming which in turn make death too fast and frequent to give new players some time to look around and learn their way.


In the end btw it's not about a kill-cam feature. You can actually implement kill-cam in such a way that it would not give away your exact position at all, which would instantly kill 90% of all the rage against it in this topic.


There's absolutely no point to it if it doesn't give away the position of the killer. We already have a screen that tells you who and what killed you, the only point of a kill cam is to show you where they were at the time.

This is how it's clear you've lost the argument, because you're arguing you don't need the thing you want.


Instead they come up with all kinds of flawed arguments like "we had to learn it the hard way too", "look it up if you want to improve", "ask others to get better", "we don't need no dumbing down for COD kiddies".


Only flawed in their lack of tact, if anything. The best way to learn your way in a game like this is not a kill cam, but to play the game, watch videos of other people playing the game, and get advice from people who do know the game.

[Ertwin]

Kill-cam "eliminating this tactical game play altogether" is simply not true. You can still camp in your hidey hole but now you have a few tactical options to consider:

Take the risk that people come not after you. This is actually a viable risk to take as the game is generally too fluid, hectic and fast paced for people to go on a revenge mission. By the time your enemy has respawned and moved himself to your position, good chances are the tactical situation has already drastically changed to make such a mission viable in the first place.
Anticipate people taking revenge on you and have your AP mines planted along the route to your spot. Using the same kill-cam against your enemy "exploiting" it and instead killing him twice can be a very rewarding tactic.
Relocate to have a fire line on your last position, again to use kill-cam as a tactic, or just to re-engage is just an easy thing to do in this game. No matter how you look at it, the scale of this game is so big that you always have a different camping spot easily available to you, even in cramped tower fights.



Point 1: It's not just the person you killed you have to worry about. There is in game voice messaging, so any time you kill anyone with kill cam enabled, you can safely assume everyone in the area knows your position. People will hunt down infiltrators like it's an Olympic sport.

Point 2: AP mines are a limited resource, and not really a good counter when you're spotted.

Point 3: You said "relocate" when the person you're talking to specifically said that moving isn't a viable option...

[tricome]

This exactly illustrates why the whole kill-cam discussion has deteriorated over the years in some epeen crap.

It's precisely this stunning arrogance and hardcore gamer elitism that has rotten not only this but other communities as well. No matter how you look at it, COD and BF are great multi-player fps series that have become popular for a very good reason. Bashing it because it make you feel more superior is telling more about you than about these games.
Kill-cam did not "ruin" COD, nor did it "ruin" BF and there's really no reason to assume it will "ruin" PS 2.

Thats your opinion which your entitled to.

However I disagree and say killcam did ruin both of those games and now there nothing more than kiddie shooters dumbed into oblivion to appeal to the masses.

You won't change my opinion no matter what wall of text you post.

[Blynd]

You will never get the community to back kill cams because they are a lazy way of playing you dont really learn anything about the game from them just where the guy who killed you is.

[Muldoon]

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

[Blynd]

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

If that were the case then restricting them for BR1-5 would be enough to get people to get the hang of things any further use is plain game breaking.

[ChipMHazard]

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

I agree that they are indeed, like both you and Rolph state, very good tools for teaching new players how to play, although I still don't want them in the game "permanently". I would really like to see you guys work out something that helps improve the new player experience as I keep seeing new players who just get killed over and over without really knowing where from (Mostly because I'm a right camping bastard). I would be fine with seeing something along the lines of what Blynd, and maybe others, suggested.
Is this something you guys have been discussing around the office?

[Wahooo]

Sure a kill cam CAN help new players learn a bit. But is it "Desperately Needed"?

There are a lot of things that are needed, like a way to get new players into mentor type outfits/platoons. There is a list of new player helpers already started, something from the game's side to help the new players connect with coaches. Of all of the aspects this game has that are more complex than a "traditional" shooter exactly where you died from is pretty low on the list for what new players need to know.

I remember reading a guide for the original Rainbow Six, as I tried the multi-player and got wrecked so bad. They basically said think about real life if you want to survive. If you just saw a teammate (or two) get shot standing at a window are you really going to go over an poke your head out that window to see what killed them? Of course not.

See what I see from a lot of new players is, not only do they go marching up to that window to see what is out there, it wasn't after a teammate died but after THEY died. Get shot, then go back to that same spot and stand still and look around. Really? I'm supposed to agree to a kill cam because people like that are quitting from getting killed over and over? Kill cam isn't really going to help them, they are still going to get killed over and over just with more variety.

My 7 year old daughter gets it. She may not be that great at doing it, but she saw me die last night and said "Daddy you weren't doing like you told me. You stopped moving and weren't looking all around."

MAYBE I could concede to giving it to new players up to BR5 or so, but that sucks too will those players that relied on it rage when it goes away? Those who need a crutch don't walk very well without it.

[Muldoon]

Is this something you guys have been discussing around the office?

Not since beta.

[retief]

Suggestion: add a "killcam" located on your corpse that is looking in the direction of the damage that killed you with no zoom. Basically, you see the same view you would have gotten had you been looking directly at whatever killed you. The camera does not move or follow your killer.

At close range, if the guy that killed you hasn't moved, you see who killed you (this shouldn't be a problem -- if the guy is standing in the open after shotgunning you, he isn't trying to be sneaky). You can definitely tell if there is a guy camping a corner or the top of a rock. Against explosives, you see where the explosive was (you don't see the person who planted the explosive or the person who set it off). Against a sniper, you see the general area that the sniper killed you from, but since the view is from the location you died and is at normal zoom, you won't know exactly where the sniper is, and you certainly don't follow the sniper if he relocates. Overall, you get the same information that you would have gotten had you been looking in the right direction and saw the shot's tracer. Presumably, good players are already looking in the right direction, so it doesn't help them at all. However, it gives newer players an idea about where they should be looking.

Overall, it penalizes the "find a good hiding spot and get a 20 man killstreak because no one looks up" playstyle and helps newer players figure out where they are being killed from without giving players who are smart enough to look in the right direction any more information.

[Rolfski]

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

We actually had quite some useful suggestions throughout this topic to get around the issues these hardcore vets have, like making kill-cam available for newer players only.

Problem so far is that:

People don't seem to care that much, at least in this forum, about improving the new player experience. Personally, I see this learn-it-the-hard-way-or-take-the-high-way mentality as one of it's biggest threats for the long-term survival of PS 2. An Eve Online-like skill wall just won't work for a relatively light weight game as PS2 imo.
Many hardcore players are just blind raging spastic and plain allergic for any form of kill-cam. The amount of non-constructive, downright hostile and borderline insulting comments I so far have had to be put up with in this discussion (mind you, this is supposed to be a "friendly" and "mature" community), should be a good indicator for any SOE announcement on a kill-cam feature.

So as much as I agree with you for it being a potentially excellent learning tool, I also don't expect SOE to have the balls for it to reconsider it.
Unless you get back-up from the hardcore community first, that is.

What I do hope to get out of this discussion though, is some openness and willingness for tools & mechanics that help close the ever-growing skill gap somewhat for newer and casual players.

[Wahooo]

[LIST]
People don't seem to care that much, at least in this forum,
Bullshit. Have you ever visited the new player questions forum? A lot of help there. Currently there are several threads around the same age as this one ABOUT helping new player. Because we think kill cam is crap, has nothing to do with how I feel about helping new players, nor most of the people in this thread.
Many hardcore players are just blind raging spastic and plain allergic for any form of kill-cam. The amount of non-constructive, downright hostile and borderline insulting comments I so far have had to be put up with in this discussion (mind you, this is supposed to be a "friendly" and "mature" community), should be a good indicator for any SOE announcement on a kill-cam feature.
[/LIST
Bullshit again. There has hardly been any blind rage nor that much insult considering your inability to actually have a point through this whole mess. I've played games with them, I just don't like them, I have reasons for not wanting it in this game, which i've listed repeatedly. The best youve been able to come back with is to tell me i'm wrong? WTF At this point you I think you ARE trolling for insults to make yourself feel better congrats for that, you've succeeded. I just haven't typed 90% of what i've wanted to say when it comes to that.

I can't believe I keep coming back to this thread.

[Ertwin]

Problem so far is that:


The problem so far is that every time anyone suggests a solution that isn't kill cam, you dismiss it out of hand. It is pretty clear that kill cam isn't an acceptable solution to any of the problems you've brought up, so start looking for other solutions rather than flogging the meat off the dead horse.

[Lucidius]

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

Why not make them exclusively available to low BR characters or players with new SOE/PS2 accounts?

[Baneblade]

Why not make them exclusively available to low BR characters or players with new SOE/PS2 accounts?

Because then the foot is in the door for it to be pushed further. Why invent a game mechanic that will only make it harder for new players to learn the game and puts them right back where they started when they 'graduate'.

[Rolfski]

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

[monkjunk]

Kill cams kill tactical sniping, and that is it. I often use a silenced longshot bolt action for overwatch/flanking/scouting. I use the longshot because it has a high standard muzzle velocity, so when it is silenced it is still relatively high. Even so, mid-long range silenced sniping is a whole new game. Even a 50m distance between two different targets can mean that you cannot take both instantly, as you must zero in for each one individually due to the large amount of drop compared to the standard amount. Drop is not consistent either, so although you'll eventually work in an eye and be able to go "Two mildots should be enough... *Bang*...... got 'em!" alot of the time you'll need a test shot at something away from but at the same distance as the target to see where you need to aim. So, silenced sniping has not just got a 100 cert cost, but requires you to learn how to snipe all over again, and when you work for so long to be proficient at moving unseen and sniping with a silenced weapon, having a target come up behind you for no other reason than he saw you on the kill cam is real bullsh*t.

Now, I don't normally camp. Sometimes I do so I can recline back and essentially play "duck hunt", because that slow paced gameplay can be fun at times, but on a whole I don't normally do it. My original outfit, Omega Company, focused on small squad work, and now in AG7 we're implementing the same ideals. Normally when we'd attack, say, an amp station we'd go for the targets that were out of the way or unexpected, perhaps a shield generator on the opposite side of the base. So, out of my four man squad three would go in the room and overload whilst I would move between overwatch positions, staying at each for maybe a minute or more, depending on what angles I have and how many targets I can see.
http://gyazo.com/bec01fa9c1c161c98fc32806483f7a6f.png
Remembering that I hardly ever get seen and I use a silencer, I generally only die when I run into an enemy whilst on the move who I can't take down with my commisioner or I move into the room because my team got downed. Also remember that I often stick to positions for a minute or so, although I am constantly moving between them. If they were to implement kill cams, someone who would otherwise not have detected me due to my use (and subsequent training) of a silencer and hiding/stealth techniques would be able to get the jump on me because they saw me on the camera. Tell me that's fair. Tell me that although I went to all this effort to stay hidden, not engage targets until I had a clear shot, learn how to snipe all over again and find a nice concealed spot to stay in for about a minute before moving, it's fair that he knows all the ins and outs of my current position.

Kill cams killed sniping in BF3. It would happen all the time. you get sniped, you see where he was so you grab a jet or something and go rip his ass up. It nerfed snipers even more than they had been already, and the BF# sniper class was already pretty terrible.


You want to balance kill cams? Give the killer the exact position of the kill-ee in relation to him/her for the next 5 minutes after they spawned. Although this would be unbalanced... But the one who has been killed knowing the exact position of the killer is not?




EDIT: Also, sneak attacks do not have to be a one use thing. If you snipe someone from 5m away and they don't see you, chances are they'll think it was a distance shot and look elsewhere. A kill cam would show them that no, in fact you were right behind them.

[Baneblade]

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

Empirical evidence is not evidence.

[CrankyTRex]

Empirical evidence is not evidence.

It's funny because if it were evidence, it would be evidence that there's no reason to implement a kill cam. If it doesn't give away the position of the attacker, it isn't going to help the kill-ee any, and therefore is unnecessary.

[GreyFrog]

Kickban Roflski*, send him a video of how you did it and see if he learns >:D

*This is not a srs bzns post.

[Mastachief]

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

Cool story bro, tell it again.

Public BF3 doesn't have tactical play, it's a round based clusterfuck.

How about picking a comparable game... like PS1. As i've already told you you lack the ability to understand what you are seeing on killcam and take advantage of it, lots of us do not have this failing. You may consider this "elitist" but you are not a good FPS player so your opinion on these sorts of matters has little credit, capable/good fps players have none of the issues you have been trotting out in this thread they put the effort in to learn and self improve this is what a fps game is all about, it is supposed to be challenging.

Have fun in BF4.

[skwerlman]

Perhaps if you were to limit kill cams to non-stealth attacks. For instance, if you've spent the certs to silence your weapon, then you shouldn't have your position given away by a kill cam. But if you kill someone with an assault rifle without a silencer, I think a kill cam is still reasonable. And if you further reduce kill cams to new players, then there's no real disadvantage to the hardcore community. Unless they're afraid of being killed by a br1.

[Violin]

You may consider this "elitist" but you are not a good FPS player so your opinion on these sorts of matters has little credit, capable/good fps players have none of the issues you have been trotting out in this thread they put the effort in to learn and self improve this is what a fps game is all about, it is supposed to be challenging.

+1
And thank you for saying it, because this is literally the thought that crosses my mind everytime I read one of Rolfski's post on any subject.

[VaderShake]

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

LOL...in BF3 the maps are so small and their are so few players even without a kill-cam it's really easy to figure out were the enemy is at, the kill cam just confirms it in BF3......not to mention with destruction you can eliminate most cover so it becomes event easier to know where the enemy is and where they will come from.

BF3 is dumbed down beyond belief and I expect more of the same from BF4 which is why I will pass on it..

[VaderShake]

put the effort in to learn and self improve this is what a fps game is all about, it is supposed to be challenging.

Have fun in BF4.


This.....

I often chuckle at these type of threads since I have been gaming for over 30 years and games were never easier to figure out than they are now. I would like to see some people try and figure out old school games like Maze-A-Tron, DiscWorld, and Contra (Without the Code)...all this without the collective brain of the internet to help either.

Grow a sack and get better...that's my advice...

[Rolfski]

Public BF3 doesn't have tactical play, it's a round based clusterfuck.
Sorry to hurt your ego but this game is as much of a clusterfuck as BF3. Tactical play in this game is rarely about single player positions that might be "given away". Not unlike BF3, battles are generally too chaotic, hectic and flow too quickly to make kill-cam anything of a game-breaking issue.


As i've already told you you lack the ability to understand what you are seeing on killcam and take advantage of it, lots of us do not have this failing. You may consider this "elitist" but you are not a good FPS player so your opinion on these sorts of matters has little credit, capable/good fps players have none of the issues you have been trotting out in this thread they put the effort in to learn and self improve this is what a fps game is all about, it is supposed to be challenging.

Your short-sighted arrogance amuses me and I feel sorry for you that you need to get your self-esteem out of BR and KDR, but at the end of the day a few BR 100 no-lifers is NOT what keeps this game going.

Sorry to burst your bubble but SOE has a business to run here. For this game to succeed on the long run it needs to be equally fun and rewarding for new-comers and casuals as well. You cannot just place NBA all-stars and amateurs on the same basketball field like this game does and expect that everything will work out just fine.

There's nothing wrong with an insane high skill ceiling (it keeps players like you running), but if that means that you literally need to spend hundreds of hours in order to have anywhere near a fun and rewarding time (which is now the case with air), then there's something terribly wrong with game design.
Whether you like kill-cam or not, this game needs skill gap-bridging mechanics. Catering it to BR 100 hardcores only is a one-way ticket to commercial failure.

+1
And thank you for saying it, because this is literally the thought that crosses my mind everytime I read one of Rolfski's post on any subject.
Thank you for your kind words and compliments. You are really doing your "respected" outfit a favour.

[Blynd]

Oh god please can someone close this thread. The op is ion lala land. Kill cams won't be intoduced so get over it.

Again please mods close this thread cause its beyond a joke now.

[Mastachief]

Sorry to hurt your ego but this game is as much of a clusterfuck as BF3. Tactical play in this game is rarely about single player positions that might be "given away". Not unlike BF3, battles are generally too chaotic, hectic and flow too quickly to make kill-cam anything of a game-breaking issue.

Try playing along side a proper team rather than a zerg and you will see the difference... you won't understand it but you'll see it.



Your short-sighted arrogance amuses me and I feel sorry for you that you need to get your self-esteem out of BR and KDR, but at the end of the day a few BR 100 no-lifers is NOT what keeps this game going.

This is a computer game, it has no bearing on my self esteem. I feel for you if it effects you so badly. BR100 is not a marker on a lack of life or KDR, and again you are wrong here the pursuit of br100 and those that have attained it has and does keep this game running as generally these and the people putting up the cash and driving the development to keep this game challenging enough to justify a 10year life cycle and constant development.

Sorry to burst your bubble but SOE has a business to run here. For this game to succeed on the long run it needs to be equally fun and rewarding for new-comers and casuals as well. You cannot just place NBA all-stars and amateurs on the same basketball field like this game does and expect that everything will work out just fine.

This is where you completely don't get it, any and i do mean any FPS player worth their salt (oh look move mouse click button... profit) that are prepared to apply an IQ off 110+ can pick up this game and through a little effort jump in for free and enjoy the game with decent performance metrics (kdr 1.0+ and spm of 100+). Within a week or so of average playing time (2hours per session) will improve their metrics by a substantial margin. Then through looking listening and maybe a little searching (you know effort) they will improve a little bit more. Why should we cheapen the game for all the players that fall into the wide open pool from average to good to excellent to cater to the small group of people that are lazy here today gone tomorrow ADHD sufferers that will come and go without spending a dime.

There's nothing wrong with an insane high skill ceiling (it keeps players like you running),

There is no high skill ceiling, this is not arma. Planetside 2 is a very forgiving arcade spray and pray shoot em up. At best it's medium.

but if that means that you literally need to spend hundreds of hours in order to have anywhere near a fun and rewarding time (which is now the case with air)

Again not the case, an hour spent on youtube and 3hours spent practicing will get you to a good level in the air. Also people are getting their nerf to air to air combat skill.

, then there's something terribly wrong with game design.
Whether you like kill-cam or not, this game needs skill gap-bridging mechanics. Catering it to BR 100 hardcores only is a one-way ticket to commercial failure.

Again with the BR100 thing, it's just a number. There are plenty of terrible br100's. Skill gap bridging, FACEPALM. "Hi noob101 sorry that dude that is better at this game than you owned your ass here have this crutch feature to get the one up on him next time" yeh that sounds like a game that will last for years to come...


Thank you for your kind words and compliments. You are really doing your "respected" outfit a favour.

And around we go again. Give it up our points are very real and very valid yours are not. You disregard any and all comments from players of all skill / playstyles because they don't fit in your deluded little ideal to create a carebear environment in what is supposed to be a visceral FPS experience. You cannot have both worlds and maintain the persistent nature of the game.

The only thing that should have heavy time investment (dev) is the intro training environment and scenarios. Compliment these with artwork that provides direction in bases that direct people to key features such as jump pads, control points and spawns etc.

[Calista]

Oh god please can someone close this thread. The op is ion lala land. Kill cams won't be intoduced so get over it.

Again please mods close this thread cause its beyond a joke now.

I agree. Even SOE dev said it wasn't coming back so why is this thread still going?

[Violin]

Thank you for your kind words and compliments. You are really doing your "respected" outfit a favour.

Well first off, I was simply agreeing with the other person that called you out.

Secondly, I speak for myself and myself alone, my outfit has nothing to do with my thoughts on you.

And lastly, if you really want to bring outfits into this, I am sure all three of the respected outfits* you belong to are really proud of this 15 page shitshow you have created. Personally though I wouldn't hold it against them, because clearly on this matter you are speaking for yourself, which the last 15 pages have proven :rofl:.

*notice the lack of quotations, as in I am being sincere, those of us with an ounce of sense in us realize that any outfit with staying power in this game is worthy of being respected, and in that regard 666, GOTR and BRTD have certainly earned my respect.

[Rolfski]

I agree. Even SOE dev said it wasn't coming back so why is this thread still going?

I was wondering that as well tbh. My last response was more than 2 weeks ago and I've long made my point, but somehow people keep coming back with all kinds of 12 year old epeen bullshit, suggesting that you need at least to have BR 100 and a KDR of 3+ or so in order to be "credible" and take part in a fps discussion. Biggest pile of crap I've ever heard, seriously.

By taking a stance for casual/newer players in a hardcore community, I wasn't exactly expecting any popularity prizes. But the arrogance and disrespect I've been put up so far, even surprises me.

So Chip, please close this thread. Apparently, discussing on this forum is only allowed for "credible" people with a high enough KDR that have popular opinions.

[Wahooo]

I was wondering that as well tbh. My last response was more than 2 weeks ago and I've long made my point, but somehow people keep coming back with all kinds of 12 year old epeen bullshit, suggesting that you need at least to have BR 100 and a KDR of 3+ or so in order to be "credible" and take part in a fps discussion. Biggest pile of crap I've ever heard, seriously.

By taking a stance for casual/newer players in a hardcore community, I wasn't exactly expecting any popularity prizes. But the arrogance and disrespect I've been put up so far, even surprises me.

So Chip, please close this thread. Apparently, discussing on this forum is only allowed for "credible" people with a high enough KDR that have popular opinions.

Casual doesn't mean bad.

I'm casual, you are bad.

Credibility comes from not being a dumb ass. You lost a lot of credibility through this thread.
You have contradicted yourself countless times. You have failed to say anything other than talk about obviously limited personal experiences as examples and call it a counter argument, then come back with an air of arrogance to tell others they don't know what they are talking about when they clearly have a ton more experience on these matters.

It boils down to a few things here. You have been arrogant, ignorant and stubborn through this whole thread. Maybe if you were stubborn but get off your high horse and not post with such a belittling attitude you may get a better response. But the fact remains everything you've posted has been done in a manner that says "I'm smarter and I know better, despite your experiences."

At this point I could actually give a fuck about kill cam. I don't care about how much or little people play or how good at the game others are. The person that I've gotten to know through this thread that is Rolfski is a person, that if they offered me a beer I'd probably turn it down because I really can't imagine being around him for any length of time. I've read this entire thread a couple times, and again recently, and I STILL disagree with absolutely everything Rolf has said.

[ChipMHazard]

This thread has run its course. I'm disappointed that this discussion turned this personal. Closing down.