DashRendar
2013-09-01, 05:00 PM
Welcome, this will be a thread for discussing the further niching of the NC as a faction and making the NC frontline the relevant and reckoning force it should be (while not being OP. Nobody likes being OP, nobody likes getting nerfed after being OP, I am also not nobody) the intent here is balance. NC Empire Specific design is in general far too situational, and not really strong enough in its designed niche to justify using for very long, this needs to be fixed. This will NOT be a thread for debating whether the NC needs a revamp or not. This will NOT be a thread for discussing the areas where NC is well thought out and functional. This thread will be for the open discussion of addressing long standing issues with the NC backline and ES design as it pertains to both being effective and being fun to use. I'm going to be talking a lot about "crowd control" because lets face it, fighting in crowds is the major selling point of this game, and the NC are the worst at it on all fronts, which makes them the worst at the intended game... Now read my brethren (and ladies), for this will not be over quickly, and you will not enjoy this.
The Vanguard: a great 1v1 tank in low pop situations, but has the least crowd control capability of any of the in game tanks and can't farm. Even the Lightning has better crowd control because it has faster firing rate and more DPS and is fast enough to escape if things turn bad, it doesn't "need" a shield like the Vanguard does because a Vanguard can't escape from a bad situation, it has to stay and fight or die. The ML85 Enforcer is a good AV weapon that patches the holes in the damage of the main gun in AV, but it's terrible at killing infantry following the nerf. The Vulcan doesn't share this problem. You'll be a smart Vanguard driver if you equip the NS Halberd instead, because it increases your effectiveness in both AV and AI. Why should NC be the only faction that can't kill infantry well?
Here are some charts of player performance for all MBT cannons. I want to play a game... find the NC.
HE: https://docs.google.com/a/klyptotec...3A71RTVddGRsSGtLeFVzdlByXzhkcFRobE9SVk E#gid=0
HEAT: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsdF3A71RTVddDdXTnVyN3pyQXBHdzR0STB2SUJyb mc#gid=0
AP: https://docs.google.com/a/klyptotec...3A71RTVddGRPN0NjRk5yWktlV0Ntanc2MGhjWl E#gid=0
Suggestions:
-Make the Enforcer 1 shot infantry again, it's the only way to make the Vanguard scary to the enemy without OPing it in AV by changing the main gun and it would still require teamwork and skill. Currently, the Vulcan has the same or better TTK than the Enforcer on infantry out to a decent range while the Enforcer is more situational than the Vulcan because it's as hard to use well as the Halberd, but not really effective enough in either role to really justify taking.over the Halberd. Once you have time and certs invested into your Vanguard and a reliable gunner, the Halberd will outperform the Enforcer in every role.
-Alternately instead of changing the Enforcer, the main gun blast radius inner/outer could be increased for HEAT/HE rounds, as Vanguard HEAT/HE rounds obviously underperform and could use some help in that department. Although this still doesn't change the fact that the Enforcer is A. not very NC by design and B. increasingly less competitive as you become more proficient with tanking in general.
-The C85 is completely useless, but neither myself nor anyone else has ever had an idea as to how to improve it to a place where it is useful. It is bad design and unless it gets a lockon mechanic or turns into a hitscan laser railgun type thing, it will always be useless and outclassed by the NS AI weapons.
Aside from this the Vanguard is fine, it's got a powerful but balanced main gun and it is well designed and functional in its intended niche. More NC things should play out like the Vanguard does, although I do think that the Vanguard shield should have a cert upgradable HP like the Aegis shield has. For instance, the final level is exactly as it is on live right now, but the first level only gives half the HP of the live shield and it cascades from there. The shield is unbugged now, so something like this can make sense now, and I don't think you will piss off many NC, but it will quiet many TR/VS.
The Reaver: used to be a good 1v1 ESF for the pilot skilled enough to minimize all of its built in downsides in order to capitalize on its short list of advantages. Even during that period it was still a less capable craft because the other fighters could do more to help the fight instead of just ganking some lone undefended flier, but following the Rotary rebalance, it just has far too many downsides and really no mechanical advantage. It's a glass cannon without the cannon part. The Reaver is the slowest, largest, loudest ESF which is really only viable at taking out Libs and Galaxies because ESF combat now is too risky and you don't have the mechanical advantage at close range anymore, which was what the entire Reaver design was hinged on for months, it NEEDED that edge because it was its only edge to speak of that wasn't outclassed by the other two craft. It used to have superior health pool = lost. It used to have faster AB top speed and momentum to engage/disengage from a losing battle = lost. It used to have a superior Rotary which offered it a higher EFFECTIVE health than the other two ESFs at the very least to overshadow its deep downfalls = lost. What does it have now? Use the phrase "vertical thrust" and I'll punch you, because you don't understand how air fights actually play out.
Here is a link showing the current ESF balance and how it relates to performance in real game type situations:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoT5EmuChzPcdHRMUm5pVFFqMzdhblJSM2U3UEppS Gc#gid=0
Here are some pictures showing the Reavers major drawback that is its leading cause of poor performance in large crowd fights and is currently unbalanced:
http://i.imgur.com/tUEFI6O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Pib7qxG.png
Suggestions:
-Give the Reaver (and Scythe) more reserve ammo for their Rotary. There is no reason why TR should be the only ESF with ample reserve ammo, even my Vortek with some pretty expensive reserve certs has to find a reload pad after every dogfight engagement because you never know what you will be up against next, and ~200 shots in reserve after a dogfight just doesn't cut it. This means many NC air units are constantly leaving the fight and weakening their front line staying power.
-Possibly increase the Reavers' armor again like it used to be in Beta. The Vanguard has more armor than the Magrider/Prowler and nobody complains about it, so it really seems like the Reaver wants this as well. Doesn't have to be a whole lot, just enough that it will patch some design holes in the Reaver that are currently unbalanced (Hitbox size, slow speed, low agility). Now that the Rotary guns have been "normalized" it's time that the ESFs themselves receive the same tuning, the Reaver is really the only one that needs some touching up IMO, and I think this would be a great way to do it.
NC Max: a great 1v1 Max with (you guessed it, the least crowd control). An NC Max must be fully certed before it's even viable in its niche by design, however when it is viable its action is like a lightswitch and it actually gains its close range superiority finally, that only cost what, 5000 certs with no real driving motive? So the NC Max gains the ability to put down a single enemy Max very quickly if he can close the gap to just outside melee range without dying, very fun to do. What kind of situation do you see a single undefended enemy Max alone in a room with nothing else around him? Uh huh, thought so. Tiny magazines, long reloads, and the burden of closing the gap while taking fire is all working against the NC Max. Forget about "superiority" here for a minute, the amount of situations where the NC Max is able to contribute to the cause of taking territory for your team is much lower than the others because of its severely limited crowd control capability. Max AV = Comets > Fractures >>> Falcons = Ravens.
Suggestions:
-Make NC Max AV weapons more competitive. The Ravens aren't great, but I feel like they are more or less functional for such an easy to use weapon, they're fine. The Falcons need help. The Falcons on Test Server have buffed projectile velocity, and this is a great step in the right direction for the NC Max, however, it's not all that is needed. The Falcons should keep their convergence issues rather than become "point and win" because being harder to use is sort of an NC thing and I like that. The Falcons should hit harder though, and they're inferior to the other Max AV weapons which are also easier to use. This is not balanced. Falcons have a longer TTK vs. an enemy Max than either the Fracture or the Comets, and the Falcons viability greatly drops off with range while the aforementioned two do not. To balance this situation, the Falcon should be buffed so that it 1 shots infantry with a direct hit but that the Flak armor changes posted to the Test server will negate the OHK on infantry. This should bring the Falcons more in line with the other Max AV weapons and this is much more possible now than it was before due to the Flak changes that are incoming. Now if you complain about being OHK, you were wearing the wrong suit so it's your problem. That's it, more result for the effort put in and the NC Max will be more balanced.
-NC AI Max is fine, do not discuss.
-The NC Burster performance still stinks and the others are more powerful for really no justifiable reason, but I don't have any suggestions to improve this aside from buff the Reaver. Leave the other factions to use their EZ mode AA Bursters while NC will attain air superiority through skill. NC is the "hardest faction to use well" give us the results to go along with the effort put in. That's all I have to say about that. Reread the Reaver section if you have any further questions.
Phoenix: This is not a great rocket, it has nothing "great" about it that is not overshadowed by something else in game. Its camera guided projectile is currently just a gimmick for people who are not capable of learning projectile flight patterns. The Phoenix rocket is so slow that a stock Sunderer will outrun it, and its 300m effective range only compounds with that to make the practical uses of the Phoenix very limited indeed. It seems the actual situations where you would need or desire a camera guided rocket are shut out by default. It has the lowest damage output of any rocket type in the game because the rocket does not even begin its reload sequence until the rocket hits, runs out of range, or is aborted mid flight. Phoenix rocket doesn't even destroy an infantry terminal in one rocket, every other rocket in the game does. Where is my incentive to use this rocket? Hard to use, situational, weak, outclassed by the Lancer/Striker/Deci/Anni. It should not OHK infantry again, though for having to sacrifice that aspect when choosing a rocket, it should perform well enough in AV that it is worth the sacrifice. Currently, it is not.
Suggestions:
-EITHER - make the Phoenix rocket have a faster projectile like the new Falcons just got but keep the 300m limitation, the speed will make the rocket more effective within its pathetic range - OR - add an alternate fire mechanic for the Phoenix that acts more like the Max mounted Ravens, keeping the low maneuverability and slow speed of the camera guided rocket, but abolishing the range limitation IN THIS MODE, so that it functions like a shoulder mounted AV Mana turret. Before you call OP, the Phoenix is still weaker than the AV Mana turret per shot landed, has less DPS because the AV Mana reloads (cools down) immediately after firing while the Phoenix doesn't begin to reload until after the projectile hits a target. Further, the other ESRLs are more or less at this level of effectiveness, so having NC attain this level would just bring things into a logical balance.
Harasser: The ML85 Enforcer is a decent AV weapon, the C85 is s***. The NC Har doesn't match up to the Vulcan/Marauder Har of the TR. The Saron Har may share the same issues as the NC Har, but at least the VS get the PPA Har, which gives them a role that NC doesn't get. You will find NC Harassers equipping Halberd or Fury mostly because our ES guns are too situational.
Suggestions:
-Read the above suggestion for improving the Vanguard. Make the Enforcer less situational.
-Fix the C85 Modified to give the NC Har a new role.
Infantry: NC Infantry combat is fine, do not discuss. NC have the best selection of sidearms and a great selection of primaries that are both functional in their niche and balanced. I wish more of the NC were well thought out in this same manner. I'd prefer if the Reaper DMR/AC-X11 didn't have such slow projectiles to balance their difficulty of handling, but it's such a small issue that it's an afterthought compared to the large issues with NC equipment previously mentioned.
These suggestions are just to get this conversation started and offer some ideas for improvement while not making NC OP. Please discuss and contribute in a positive way, trolling or discussion of closed topics will be ignored.
Thank you,
-DashRendar
The Vanguard: a great 1v1 tank in low pop situations, but has the least crowd control capability of any of the in game tanks and can't farm. Even the Lightning has better crowd control because it has faster firing rate and more DPS and is fast enough to escape if things turn bad, it doesn't "need" a shield like the Vanguard does because a Vanguard can't escape from a bad situation, it has to stay and fight or die. The ML85 Enforcer is a good AV weapon that patches the holes in the damage of the main gun in AV, but it's terrible at killing infantry following the nerf. The Vulcan doesn't share this problem. You'll be a smart Vanguard driver if you equip the NS Halberd instead, because it increases your effectiveness in both AV and AI. Why should NC be the only faction that can't kill infantry well?
Here are some charts of player performance for all MBT cannons. I want to play a game... find the NC.
HE: https://docs.google.com/a/klyptotec...3A71RTVddGRsSGtLeFVzdlByXzhkcFRobE9SVk E#gid=0
HEAT: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsdF3A71RTVddDdXTnVyN3pyQXBHdzR0STB2SUJyb mc#gid=0
AP: https://docs.google.com/a/klyptotec...3A71RTVddGRPN0NjRk5yWktlV0Ntanc2MGhjWl E#gid=0
Suggestions:
-Make the Enforcer 1 shot infantry again, it's the only way to make the Vanguard scary to the enemy without OPing it in AV by changing the main gun and it would still require teamwork and skill. Currently, the Vulcan has the same or better TTK than the Enforcer on infantry out to a decent range while the Enforcer is more situational than the Vulcan because it's as hard to use well as the Halberd, but not really effective enough in either role to really justify taking.over the Halberd. Once you have time and certs invested into your Vanguard and a reliable gunner, the Halberd will outperform the Enforcer in every role.
-Alternately instead of changing the Enforcer, the main gun blast radius inner/outer could be increased for HEAT/HE rounds, as Vanguard HEAT/HE rounds obviously underperform and could use some help in that department. Although this still doesn't change the fact that the Enforcer is A. not very NC by design and B. increasingly less competitive as you become more proficient with tanking in general.
-The C85 is completely useless, but neither myself nor anyone else has ever had an idea as to how to improve it to a place where it is useful. It is bad design and unless it gets a lockon mechanic or turns into a hitscan laser railgun type thing, it will always be useless and outclassed by the NS AI weapons.
Aside from this the Vanguard is fine, it's got a powerful but balanced main gun and it is well designed and functional in its intended niche. More NC things should play out like the Vanguard does, although I do think that the Vanguard shield should have a cert upgradable HP like the Aegis shield has. For instance, the final level is exactly as it is on live right now, but the first level only gives half the HP of the live shield and it cascades from there. The shield is unbugged now, so something like this can make sense now, and I don't think you will piss off many NC, but it will quiet many TR/VS.
The Reaver: used to be a good 1v1 ESF for the pilot skilled enough to minimize all of its built in downsides in order to capitalize on its short list of advantages. Even during that period it was still a less capable craft because the other fighters could do more to help the fight instead of just ganking some lone undefended flier, but following the Rotary rebalance, it just has far too many downsides and really no mechanical advantage. It's a glass cannon without the cannon part. The Reaver is the slowest, largest, loudest ESF which is really only viable at taking out Libs and Galaxies because ESF combat now is too risky and you don't have the mechanical advantage at close range anymore, which was what the entire Reaver design was hinged on for months, it NEEDED that edge because it was its only edge to speak of that wasn't outclassed by the other two craft. It used to have superior health pool = lost. It used to have faster AB top speed and momentum to engage/disengage from a losing battle = lost. It used to have a superior Rotary which offered it a higher EFFECTIVE health than the other two ESFs at the very least to overshadow its deep downfalls = lost. What does it have now? Use the phrase "vertical thrust" and I'll punch you, because you don't understand how air fights actually play out.
Here is a link showing the current ESF balance and how it relates to performance in real game type situations:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoT5EmuChzPcdHRMUm5pVFFqMzdhblJSM2U3UEppS Gc#gid=0
Here are some pictures showing the Reavers major drawback that is its leading cause of poor performance in large crowd fights and is currently unbalanced:
http://i.imgur.com/tUEFI6O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Pib7qxG.png
Suggestions:
-Give the Reaver (and Scythe) more reserve ammo for their Rotary. There is no reason why TR should be the only ESF with ample reserve ammo, even my Vortek with some pretty expensive reserve certs has to find a reload pad after every dogfight engagement because you never know what you will be up against next, and ~200 shots in reserve after a dogfight just doesn't cut it. This means many NC air units are constantly leaving the fight and weakening their front line staying power.
-Possibly increase the Reavers' armor again like it used to be in Beta. The Vanguard has more armor than the Magrider/Prowler and nobody complains about it, so it really seems like the Reaver wants this as well. Doesn't have to be a whole lot, just enough that it will patch some design holes in the Reaver that are currently unbalanced (Hitbox size, slow speed, low agility). Now that the Rotary guns have been "normalized" it's time that the ESFs themselves receive the same tuning, the Reaver is really the only one that needs some touching up IMO, and I think this would be a great way to do it.
NC Max: a great 1v1 Max with (you guessed it, the least crowd control). An NC Max must be fully certed before it's even viable in its niche by design, however when it is viable its action is like a lightswitch and it actually gains its close range superiority finally, that only cost what, 5000 certs with no real driving motive? So the NC Max gains the ability to put down a single enemy Max very quickly if he can close the gap to just outside melee range without dying, very fun to do. What kind of situation do you see a single undefended enemy Max alone in a room with nothing else around him? Uh huh, thought so. Tiny magazines, long reloads, and the burden of closing the gap while taking fire is all working against the NC Max. Forget about "superiority" here for a minute, the amount of situations where the NC Max is able to contribute to the cause of taking territory for your team is much lower than the others because of its severely limited crowd control capability. Max AV = Comets > Fractures >>> Falcons = Ravens.
Suggestions:
-Make NC Max AV weapons more competitive. The Ravens aren't great, but I feel like they are more or less functional for such an easy to use weapon, they're fine. The Falcons need help. The Falcons on Test Server have buffed projectile velocity, and this is a great step in the right direction for the NC Max, however, it's not all that is needed. The Falcons should keep their convergence issues rather than become "point and win" because being harder to use is sort of an NC thing and I like that. The Falcons should hit harder though, and they're inferior to the other Max AV weapons which are also easier to use. This is not balanced. Falcons have a longer TTK vs. an enemy Max than either the Fracture or the Comets, and the Falcons viability greatly drops off with range while the aforementioned two do not. To balance this situation, the Falcon should be buffed so that it 1 shots infantry with a direct hit but that the Flak armor changes posted to the Test server will negate the OHK on infantry. This should bring the Falcons more in line with the other Max AV weapons and this is much more possible now than it was before due to the Flak changes that are incoming. Now if you complain about being OHK, you were wearing the wrong suit so it's your problem. That's it, more result for the effort put in and the NC Max will be more balanced.
-NC AI Max is fine, do not discuss.
-The NC Burster performance still stinks and the others are more powerful for really no justifiable reason, but I don't have any suggestions to improve this aside from buff the Reaver. Leave the other factions to use their EZ mode AA Bursters while NC will attain air superiority through skill. NC is the "hardest faction to use well" give us the results to go along with the effort put in. That's all I have to say about that. Reread the Reaver section if you have any further questions.
Phoenix: This is not a great rocket, it has nothing "great" about it that is not overshadowed by something else in game. Its camera guided projectile is currently just a gimmick for people who are not capable of learning projectile flight patterns. The Phoenix rocket is so slow that a stock Sunderer will outrun it, and its 300m effective range only compounds with that to make the practical uses of the Phoenix very limited indeed. It seems the actual situations where you would need or desire a camera guided rocket are shut out by default. It has the lowest damage output of any rocket type in the game because the rocket does not even begin its reload sequence until the rocket hits, runs out of range, or is aborted mid flight. Phoenix rocket doesn't even destroy an infantry terminal in one rocket, every other rocket in the game does. Where is my incentive to use this rocket? Hard to use, situational, weak, outclassed by the Lancer/Striker/Deci/Anni. It should not OHK infantry again, though for having to sacrifice that aspect when choosing a rocket, it should perform well enough in AV that it is worth the sacrifice. Currently, it is not.
Suggestions:
-EITHER - make the Phoenix rocket have a faster projectile like the new Falcons just got but keep the 300m limitation, the speed will make the rocket more effective within its pathetic range - OR - add an alternate fire mechanic for the Phoenix that acts more like the Max mounted Ravens, keeping the low maneuverability and slow speed of the camera guided rocket, but abolishing the range limitation IN THIS MODE, so that it functions like a shoulder mounted AV Mana turret. Before you call OP, the Phoenix is still weaker than the AV Mana turret per shot landed, has less DPS because the AV Mana reloads (cools down) immediately after firing while the Phoenix doesn't begin to reload until after the projectile hits a target. Further, the other ESRLs are more or less at this level of effectiveness, so having NC attain this level would just bring things into a logical balance.
Harasser: The ML85 Enforcer is a decent AV weapon, the C85 is s***. The NC Har doesn't match up to the Vulcan/Marauder Har of the TR. The Saron Har may share the same issues as the NC Har, but at least the VS get the PPA Har, which gives them a role that NC doesn't get. You will find NC Harassers equipping Halberd or Fury mostly because our ES guns are too situational.
Suggestions:
-Read the above suggestion for improving the Vanguard. Make the Enforcer less situational.
-Fix the C85 Modified to give the NC Har a new role.
Infantry: NC Infantry combat is fine, do not discuss. NC have the best selection of sidearms and a great selection of primaries that are both functional in their niche and balanced. I wish more of the NC were well thought out in this same manner. I'd prefer if the Reaper DMR/AC-X11 didn't have such slow projectiles to balance their difficulty of handling, but it's such a small issue that it's an afterthought compared to the large issues with NC equipment previously mentioned.
These suggestions are just to get this conversation started and offer some ideas for improvement while not making NC OP. Please discuss and contribute in a positive way, trolling or discussion of closed topics will be ignored.
Thank you,
-DashRendar