Are claymores too visible?

[Taramafor]

Been giving this some thought. In terms of damage the mines seem fine (equal anyway). But let's face it, a bouncing better on the floor in a Vanu base is a hell of a lot harder to see then a claymore planted anywhere as there's that big green light lighting it up for all to see. Not a problem in zerg fights as people tend not to be as observant but it can be a disadvantage in smaller engagements or when slowing down indoors and seeing a big green light before you even round that corner or go down that road, a weakness absent from other mines.

So do you think claymores are too visible? And if so what can be done to help balance this out? Extra damage? More being able to be planted? Replaced with another type of mine? Extended blast damage?

[Wahooo]

Actually if the mines are going to be as generic as they are and not be a bit fancier in their faction specificness I'd like to see all three as NS weapons.

Bouncing Betty basically what it is now.
Prox mine cut the damage in 1/2 and let us carry more
Claymores directional charge, but up the damage quite a bit so a non-flak heavy with shields dies but flak rank 5 infil (who would do that) can survive but just barely.

ONLY allow 1 type of AI mine to be deployed at a time, BUT let them stay out until I deploy another. ie if I drop my prox mines but then change loadouts and have claymores the prox mines stay until detonated OR I deploy a claymore, then they go away.

[Varsam]

The short answer is yes.

[Mustakrakish]

Claymores are fine as-is. The green lasers don't even render if you're playing the game with graphics settings on the lower end, and in terms of color scheme they blend in with buildings about as well as the VS and NC mines do.

Just be smart about where you place them. I mean, c'mon. Sticking a Claymore in the middle of a doorway isn't going to fool anyone.

[Wahooo]

Just be smart about where you place them. I mean, c'mon. Sticking a Claymore in the middle of a doorway isn't going to fool anyone.

This is actually the point. Bouncing Betties and Prox mines require a lot less thinking about where to lay them to be effective and claymores require a lot less awareness to notice them.

[Taramafor]

Claymores are fine as-is. The green lasers don't even render if you're playing the game with graphics settings on the lower end

Afraid you lost the argument at that point. Playing the game on max settings. Why should I have an edge over someone with lower graphics? There's already a white outline on infiltrators if you're playing on low (so I've heard anyway). And sad to say I've actually stumbled on a bouncing betty in the middle of the doorway because I didn't see it 'till I was on top of it (floor had a similar color). Claymores are like a Christmas tree. How many indoor green areas are there?

And since we're discussing all three mines, let's try to think of way to alter the other two as well to make them more unique to the factions. Just keep in mind that the key word is balance. Maybe we can lighten the load off the devs a bit by doing some of the work for them.

[Wahooo]

And since we're discussing all three mines, let's try to think of way to alter the other two as well to make them more unique to the factions. Just keep in mind that the key word is balance. Maybe we can lighten the load off the devs a bit by doing some of the work for them.

I personally don't know how to make them more unique AND balance them. Which is why I suggested making them all common pool. The starter ones could be like they are with some tweaks then, the others available similar to ES sniper rifles-ish, how the starter ones are fairly different but you can pick up what is essentially the exact same weapon as the other empire has.

[Rumblepit]

Claymores are fine as-is. The green lasers don't even render if you're playing the game with graphics settings on the lower end, and in terms of color scheme they blend in with buildings about as well as the VS and NC mines do.

Just be smart about where you place them. I mean, c'mon. Sticking a Claymore in the middle of a doorway isn't going to fool anyone.



lmao Fine the way they are?....... Coming from a NC..... Look at the OD stats on mine kills per week and then tell me its because the TR don't know how to set mines.

Long story short
NC betty gets a avg 80k kills a week

VS prox gets a avg 90k kills a week

TR claymore gets a avg 35K kills a week


The image in the attachment was done before the last buff to the claymore, proxy is in purple and that is its lethal blast radius, betty is in blue ,and that its lethal blast radius,claymore is in red,and that its lethal blast radius.
It has since been extended to the bettys lethal blast radius. The graph on the right shows the area where the claymore damage drop off starts. Even after the buff we still have 20 to 30 % less of a lethal blast area.

Lets not even talk about the fact that its the only AI mine that has to be placed and not thrown ,or the fact that its the only AI mine with a profile that cause it to stand up on the floor,or the fact that the VS and the NC have been able to see the lasers on our claymores since day one, or the fact that they added more lights to the claymore when they put lights on the proxy and betty ..... We dont even have to bring up any of that... The Oracle of Death numbers tell the tale of how gimp the claymore is.

Oh yea i forgot about this, check out the stats on kill% on the different mines, you will see the prox and the betty have a much higher avg than the claymore.... Hit detection on the claymore has been a mess since day one. I still see it everyday, players running past claymores and they dont do any damage or dont even go off at all.I have never ever seen a prox or a betty not go off, or fail to do damage.

Im all for NS mines.... Im f ing sick and tired of my broken claymores.

[Bulltahr]

I wouldn't want to swap my claymores for the others, directional is a very powerful tool if you think outside the square. I use them a lot as an infil, and get around a 45% strike rate.
Would prefer they leave the lights off, (Real ones don't have them) but placement is key as those lights are their archilles heel.

[OCNSethy]

I wouldn't want to swap my claymores for the others, directional is a very powerful tool if you think outside the square. I use them a lot as an infil, and get around a 45% strike rate.
Would prefer they leave the lights off, (Real ones don't have them) but placement is key as those lights are their archilles heel.

C'mon Bulltahr... you gotta share :)

Where do you place them.. whats your trick? :D

[Taramafor]

but placement is key as those lights are their archilles heel.

You do realize that they curve, indicating which direction they are facing even without the lights, right? Just stick a symbol on the front (the letters TR maybe) that isn't bright and presto.

[Snipefrag]

Claymores are garbage, i started on a video a month or so back showing how often they dont go off properly.. Like, 40% of the time they were failing to do ANY damage, i never bothered publishing it. Maybe i should to get some momentum behind the 'fix the claymore' campaign.

[ChipMHazard]

I think one of the problems with the mines is that they are all designed to kill. Since two of them are basicly the same and the third is different in how it works this obiously leads to balance issues.
If SOE really wants each faction to have different mines, then how about making it so one faction gets an EMP mine, another gets a concussion mine and the third gets killing/flash mines. Could make the claymore the killing mine and just leave it as it is.

[PredatorFour]

Claymores arn't so visible when that pesky TR puts them facing into the spawn room and kills you inside the spawn room. Some useful info there terrans:cry:

[ringring]

Going from the ratio of kills I get to the number of claymores I lay I would say the answer is no.

[Taramafor]

Going from the ratio of kills I get to the number of claymores I lay I would say the answer is no.

Unfortunately, your ratio doesn't match up to everyones.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Arp9yneyL3DndE00d3hva1lSZmtQc21fU1hZX0cxQ mc#gid=0

NC betty 84084

VS prox 97648

TR claymore 38887

I got to say, the reason I DIDN'T go for claymore and went for anti tank mines instead is because they're more visible. Even without the light they're still taller then the other mines, meaning you don't have to look at the floor to detect them. Maybe an extended detection/blast in the direction of the light would help balance it and put it on par with the other mines.

[Carbon Copied]

Personally I'd prefer to have access to claymores as an NC engineer (or a choice between) - most of the time I'm looking to damage players enough for the heavies to mop up after and stall the advance; I don't feel the betties match up in how discretely you can locate them. Then again maybe I just don't care about kills.

[Reithan]

If the overall AREA hit by the mines was all the same, that would be great. As it stands right now, as far as I can tell by the graphics posted earlier in this thread, between the betty and the prox, one is actually larger, though they have pretty much the same functionality, meaning the smaller one is OBJECTIVELY worse, and the claymore is like 1/4 the size of the other AND taller, AND has glowing lights, making it OBJECTIVELY a laughingstock. That said, I STILL get kill about 45-50% of the time with mine, so people need to watch where they're going.

[Canaris]

well the way I look at it is, they gave the VS & NC great anti-personnel mines and gave us a real shitty one, then they gave us the Striker to make up for it, so on balance we're square :D

[SerethiX]

Canaris. You are so fucking damn right XD

But also it is my experience, it's harder to avoid Betty's and the other shitty mines, if you play on low, it doesn't matter, but mid to high it is mostly the light that says, hi, don't go there, I'm a mine...

Try one time to play on low, you see infis a lot easier and the mines are almost invisible ..

P.s. the NC and vs mines glitch trough stairs!

SerethiX - www.serethi.de

[Bulltahr]

C'mon Bulltahr... you gotta share :)

Where do you place them.. whats your trick? :D

PM sent, now if you use any of those tricks then you must join the Drunken Legion when you are ready to join an outfit. Once a member I will give you some more to use.;)

We need more BR50 players as it is.

[OCNSethy]

PM sent, now if you use any of those tricks then you must join the Drunken Legion when you are ready to join an outfit. Once a member I will give you some more to use.;)

We need more BR50 players as it is.


Thanks for the PM and Ive sent you one back.

Im happy to join up - who to I talk too?

[Bulltahr]

Thanks for the PM and Ive sent you one back.

Im happy to join up - who to I talk too?

Click on my sig block to get to our website, in-game look for Boots or myself Bulltahr1

I'm on in mornings ATM .

Link not working, sorry,
go here:http://www.drunkenlegion.co.nz

[KesTro]

I'll have to disagree about being able to see infils on low easier. I was playing on low for awhile to be fully efficient. (Switched back after a month because I'm a sucker for graphics). I can see infils on max setting WAY easier than I ever could on low. I can spot 'em a good 70 yards out if they're moving a lot. Anywhere within 30 yards and they may as well not even be cloaked..

That however is a problem with infilatrators all together. This still won't stop smart infils though.

[MGP]

Long story short
NC betty gets a avg 80k kills a week

VS prox gets a avg 90k kills a week

TR claymore gets a avg 35K kills a week

That's only because NC and VS players are MLG PROs, and TR are skilless noobs. Come on, everyone knows that!

[ringring]

Well claymores beams have been changed in the latest patch. They are very low key now.

I'm not sure but I think the claymore itself stands up higher (unsure).

[MGP]

Well claymores beams have been changed in the latest patch. They are very low key now.

I'm not sure but I think the claymore itself stands up higher (unsure).

Yep. It does. It was "suitcase on the ground" before. Now it's "suitcase on a stick". Also i've noticed what friendly players walking over claymores now hit them causing them to switch direction they're pointing. Not sure if it's only graphic glitch or does it affect blast zone too.
And yet, enemies still can just sprint past lasers, to avoid taking damage.

That being said, i'm not all against TR having more powerful but directional AI mine instead of omni-directional with weaker blast. IF they can make it work!

[OctavianAXFive]

I hate landmines in FPS games. I want to rant about it but I think it will be like yelling at the wind.

If it were up to me they wouldn't be in the game at all. They're just annoying these days. The mines I usually die to were left by infiltrators in a half abandoned base when my guard is down. That or I know pilots like to leave landmines around towers because it's usually an extra free kill while they're flying around.

Wait no I'm starting to rant, gotta stop myself and just be concise.

Landmines would not be missed if they were removed. They don't change the tide of battle, they just sometimes get the player who puts them down a free kill. Meanwhile the person who dies gets frustrated because you died without fighting anyone. There's no stimulation from landmines. I play to test myself against other players, not crawl around with a knife and a prayer.

Does a giant field of landmines set to deny or slow enemy movement sound cool? Yes, it kind of does. But in practice, it's not really a viable strategy (in game).

C4 gets a pass because it's remote detonation so a player has to see the enemy to blow them up. I'm not a fan of the C4 carpet bomb but it's a necessary evil and you can actively do something about it.

My gripe against landmines carries over into the larger conversation about "fire and forget" weaponry and why in video games it's just so bloody stupid and antithetic to fun.

:rant:

[Zadexin]

I wouldn't mind the lasers so much IF THE DAMN THINGS ACTUALLY WENT OFF! I've seen nc just go Trolloling right over claymores and nothing, its crap. Granted I still use the crap out of them because, well, its all we have got and its a free dead guy when they DO work.
But 9/10 people see them and shoot them before going boom.

How to fix them:
Option 1 - Turn off the stupid green lasers and just make glowy dots on the case like EVERY OTHER FACTION.
OPTION 2 - make the detection range for the mine longer by 1-2 meters and make the directional blast proportionally longer (longer NOT bigger, ie the mine can spot you from farther away and the same damage travels farther)
OPTION 3 - instead of a blast make it shoot pellets out like a shotgun round and fly until it hits something like an actual ranged weapon. That way if you shoot it standing in front, you get a nasty surprise. Makes mining doors useful again.

[GreyFrog]

They seem fixed in the latest patch for me.

They have the same blast range of 6m but maintain damage out further IIRC.

The green lasers are not very obvious anymore, I can put them next to doorways now without issues.

As for not going off, this isnt unique to the claymore. I've run past plenty of betties that don't go off but trigger for the 3rd of 4th person to come through the door. I've also noticed tank mines not triggering. Don't know about US servers but Briggs has been laggy as shit lately so maybe its related.

[ringring]

They seem fixed in the latest patch for me.

They have the same blast range of 6m but maintain damage out further IIRC.

The green lasers are not very obvious anymore, I can put them next to doorways now without issues.

As for not going off, this isnt unique to the claymore. I've run past plenty of betties that don't go off but trigger for the 3rd of 4th person to come through the door. I've also noticed tank mines not triggering. Don't know about US servers but Briggs has been laggy as shit lately so maybe its related.

Yea, it's similar to sometimes when you shoot people but they don't take damage.

[Taramafor]

It was "suitcase on the ground" before. Now it's "suitcase on a stick".


Just saw the damn things. What's the point of making the light less visible if they're just going to put them high up? It's basically screaming "Look at me, I'm a mine!" I don't care what excuse they cook up, other mines have no lights to show off they're just 'round a corner and they're defiantly not high up. They either need to state point blank that TR are bad with mines but good with something else while still maintaining balance in the game on a whole (starcraft does that pretty neatly) or just fix the damn things to be, well, more like mines that one can not easily see.

[Reithan]

I'm okay with them being more visible, if we get some other bonus instead. Like, extend the kill range or do more damage, or carry more of them, or arm faster, or whatever.

[OCNSethy]

Yeah, saw a couple of NC betties under the capture point at Ti Alloys last night, as I ran in the door.

'Is that a little yellow light on the ground?" Yep - a couple of Fracture rounds took care of them.

[Taramafor]

Yeah, saw a couple of NC betties under the capture point at Ti Alloys last night, as I ran in the door.

'Is that a little yellow light on the ground?" Yep - a couple of Fracture rounds took care of them.

Good for you. I on the other hand have gotten capped on stairs because of betties on them. At that angle they're much harder to spot. Try hiding a claymore on stairs.

[GreyFrog]

TBH claymores need to be placed a little differently to betties now but I'm getting many more kills.

They do get their higher damage extended out further in the blast radius than betties, I believe they are just about fixed.

The problems with claymores are down to client side hit detection and server lag not triggering/damaging enemies properly. Fix these and the whinges about claymores would be greatly reduced.

[OCNSethy]

Good for you. I on the other hand have gotten capped on stairs because of betties on them. At that angle they're much harder to spot. Try hiding a claymore on stairs.

I thought it was pretty boss coz I usually dont see them and like you, hear the beep and goodnight.

Point being our claymores stick out like dog testicals and are much harder to use.

[Gammit10]

Yes, definitely

[ringring]

I thought it was pretty boss coz I usually dont see them and like you, hear the beep and goodnight.

Point being our claymores stick out like dog testicals and are much harder to use.

I wouldn't say it's rocket science.

Today I triggered a BB, luckily I had just seen it and backed away so I survived. That's the first time I saw the 'popping up in the air' animation - pretty cool.

[Kalee J]

I have a suggestion I've not seen yet in this thread. How about we just rotate the mines 90 degress so it lays flat instead of on a stick? Could also rotate the breams 90 degrees so they project outward along the ground. That might help the visibility problem somewhat and bring it closer in line with the other mines.

[Sunrock]

I'm okay with them being more visible, if we get some other bonus instead. Like, extend the kill range or do more damage, or carry more of them, or arm faster, or whatever.

Same here. 6k damage and 4 meter range would be good. That way you can kill a max with full flack and put it beside the entrance so no one can sneak by it or see it first if they are coming from the wrong direction, or right direction depending what faction you play.