Bio Lab rework by Clegg

[Carbon Copied]

https://twitter.com/Arclegger/status/380027926181187584

More clutter to make the bio lab "more fun"... great fix... yeah.

Quote from reddit:
Indeed it is, we've separated the fighting between the top and bottom layers. That capture point below was always a pain to defend since you could get attacked from every which way without any solid cover.

A few other changes are happening but I don't want to spoil everything.

These changes are going to have to be pretty amazing to surpass a handful of new random assets and a toggle bridge.

[KesTro]

Eh.. A step in the right direction but I personally think Bio-Labs will need a lot more work than some added cover here and there. Especially with the lattice now in place the whole area inside the Bio-Lab needs to be increased in size by around 50% or double, maybe add a third layer or something. As it is now far too often it becomes too congested inside a single building.

[ringring]

Meh I often find them fun, I hoped they're not ruined he doesn't use the Amp Stations as exemplar.

[GreyFrog]

Why the fuck aren't these bases multi levelled with cap points and gens on each level? Why dont we fight from the top down/bottom up? How hard it is to give base caps some fucking progression?

Level 1 - Shield Gen to level 4
Level 2 - SCU shield gen
Level 3 - Spawn room & SCU
Level 4 - Shield between levels 1 & 2
Level 5 - Air pad etc.

Scatter cap points through the levels.

Lets make base caps a little more interesting FFS.

[camycamera]

next clegg, show me underground ps1-like spawn rooms.

just don't clegg it up.

edit:
Why the fuck aren't these bases multi levelled with cap points and gens on each level? Why dont we fight from the top down/bottom up? How hard it is to give base caps some fucking progression?

Level 1 - Shield Gen to level 4
Level 2 - SCU shield gen
Level 3 - Spawn room & SCU
Level 4 - Shield between levels 1 & 2
Level 5 - Air pad etc.

Scatter cap points through the levels.

Lets make base caps a little more interesting FFS.

they should throw you onto the base design team.... i want to see something like this.

[Carbon Copied]

Why the fuck aren't these bases multi levelled with cap points and gens on each level? Why dont we fight from the top down/bottom up? How hard it is to give base caps some fucking progression?

Level 1 - Shield Gen to level 4
Level 2 - SCU shield gen
Level 3 - Spawn room & SCU
Level 4 - Shield between levels 1 & 2
Level 5 - Air pad etc.

Scatter cap points through the levels.

Lets make base caps a little more interesting FFS.

I'm still hopeful; maybe they'll have run out of crayons to eat when checking into some patch notes down the line :)

[GreyFrog]

they should throw you onto the base design team.... i want to see something like this.

Hah :) Thanks.

I'm just pissy cause I really like the game, but sometimes the devs are so damned short sighted.

[Crator]

I do like the area that got attention in that pic though. It was way too open b4.

[camycamera]

Hah :) Thanks.

I'm just pissy cause I really like the game, but sometimes the devs are so damned short sighted.
yeah, hopefully one day we will have non-retarded spawn rooms :lol:

[BlaxicanX]

Why the fuck aren't these bases multi levelled with cap points and gens on each level? Why dont we fight from the top down/bottom up? How hard it is to give base caps some fucking progression?

Level 1 - Shield Gen to level 4
Level 2 - SCU shield gen
Level 3 - Spawn room & SCU
Level 4 - Shield between levels 1 & 2
Level 5 - Air pad etc.

Scatter cap points through the levels.

Lets make base caps a little more interesting FFS.

Oh God, yes. Been arguing for this for awhile.

With tech-plants especially, I've always wondered what the point was of putting in this HUGEFUCK courtyard type thing on the third floor, only for there to be... literally nothing of importance there. I mean seriously, aside from the noobs who think that the AA/AV guns on the top floor are useful, there is NOTHING to do on the upper two levels of the tech-plant. What's the point in even having four floors if the cap for the base is on the second floor?

I whole heartedly agree that we need some kind of "progression" cap system. Yes I know, everyone hates Battlefield 3 for some reason, but fuck it, they have an assault/defend system that WORKS. Rather than have just one cap in the middle of the damn building, a tech-plant or amp station should have one cap or vital system at each floor. Not only would that improve the battle-flow, but it would also make it easier for defenders, because once the attackers start pushing for the fourth floor cap, their supply-lines will be stretched from the sunderer all the way at the bottom floor, while the defenders are spawning damn near right on top of the cap.

[Obstruction]

the problem with that area shown is not having cover down there, but rather in trying to fight across that catwalk and never being able to leave the first building because you're getting noob toob farmed from an angle you can't defend yourself against.

biolabs need to have more attention paid to battle flow. as they stand they are each a different type of clusterfuck with one lattice link having a viable approach, and the other feeding a killfarm.

[ChipMHazard]

Hoping that they've taken notes from Figment's Biolab design ideas.

[Gammit10]

Why the fuck aren't these bases multi levelled with cap points and gens on each level? Why dont we fight from the top down/bottom up? How hard it is to give base caps some fucking progression?

Level 1 - Shield Gen to level 4
Level 2 - SCU shield gen
Level 3 - Spawn room & SCU
Level 4 - Shield between levels 1 & 2
Level 5 - Air pad etc.

Scatter cap points through the levels.

Lets make base caps a little more interesting FFS.

This would be awesome.

[stargazer093]

so any chance of removing all those stupid invulnerable teleportation rooms?

[ringring]

I don't know. For me this addresses the wrong problem.

Where a Bio Lab fight goes wrong is where defenders are unable to get out of the teleporter room and get out from the air pad. When this happens there is no fight, it is simply a camp.

On the other hand when folk are able to get from there then the fight begins.

Part of the reason for this is that there are few routes into the dome, generally 1 teleporter and one airpad. Sometimes the links provide two teleporters.

Now if we compare this to the PS1 Interlink and remember ps1 was less lethal with regards to ttk, there was acces via the backdoor, the front door, the upper double doors and the upper side door.

Once you fought your way into the main room the access to lower levels where via the main stairway and the door often called 'rabbit hole' which connected up close to the back door access.

So, even the famed PS1 base that produced the nickname ' Interfarm' had more access.

A simple solution to provide more access points would be to link up the Bio Lab outpost bases within the lattice. Whether that will work or not I am unsure.

However, whatever the end result is it should provide good fights both in high pop situations and also in low pop ones and not favour one over the other. Presently low pop fights can be good, let's not lose those.

NB: thinking in those terms I don't find these changes relevant at all. That space is not a problem and neither is fighting over those bridges.

[Calista]

Pretty sure no one gives a shit!

[Rivenshield]

Meanwhile, every single fight everywhere else ends in a five-ten minute vehicular siege of the spawn-outhouse....

Why dick around with the biolab? I honestly don't understand this crap.

[Sunrock]

Yea the Bio Labs are fine as they are... And the new suggestions will just make scatter MAXes rack up higher kill streaks. At least now when it's little open you can take them down at range.

[Hamma]

Clegg is making many changes, he also posted a pic of a big change on the road to Hvar on Indar.

[Timealude]

Why the fuck aren't these bases multi levelled with cap points and gens on each level? Why dont we fight from the top down/bottom up? How hard it is to give base caps some fucking progression?

Level 1 - Shield Gen to level 4
Level 2 - SCU shield gen
Level 3 - Spawn room & SCU
Level 4 - Shield between levels 1 & 2
Level 5 - Air pad etc.

Scatter cap points through the levels.

Lets make base caps a little more interesting FFS.

im sure it has something to do with everyone having to render all that stuff on multiple levels...but eh...im just taking a guess at it.

[Bulltahr]

Meanwhile, every single fight everywhere else ends in a five-ten minute vehicular siege of the spawn-outhouse....



Agreed, but I blame the players and not SOE, the tools are there to communicate and ask for reinforcements , or organized air strikes, but elsewhere on the map the rest of the faction is busy ghost capping............

[typhaon]

I wish PS2 would take the approach that it sounds like EQN is taking...

Just give US the tools... we'll make some fantastic maps.

[Carbon Copied]

I just don't get the feeling they know what they should be doing half the time. You can argue this "fixes a problem" but lets look longer term towards continental lattice: how does this make bio lab fights any more fun, improve flow, improve against spawn camping, fix spawn location functions or solve the problems we have now let alone when potentially in excess of 500 players are dropping on a single location?

Answer: It doesn't. What it does do is follow the same knee jerked lack lustre change that follows most "lets make it fun" change.

Once again it's shitty little band aids instead of tackling (or even acknowledging in the first place) problems that repeatedly get flagged up directly. The assets look randomly placed and totally out of context other than to cause the "barrier". At least make an attempt at the suspension of disbelief with where and what you're using, as it is you might of as well recycled crates for obstacles as they make about as much sense as these head high barriers.

Experts at creating deathmatch arenas, not experts at creating logical levels and integrated designs.

[ringring]

Bring back the router!

[Hamma]

I wish PS2 would take the approach that it sounds like EQN is taking...

Just give US the tools... we'll make some fantastic maps.

Some fantastic maps that will run at 12 FPS

There's a reason we don't have the tools it's because we have no clue what we are doing. :P EQN is a different animal all together.

[typhaon]

I'd venture to say it wouldn't be too hard for SOE to supply the parameters and whatever other knowledge was necessary for designing a functional map.

Would they all be great? No. But... as we see with just about every other example of a game making its development tools available to the players - you'll see a lot of substandard work... but you'll also find a good chunk that is as good, if not better than what's currently being put out by the pros.

For all we know - maybe that IS the long-term plan.

[Dodgy Commando]

I don't know. For me this addresses the wrong problem.

/snip

NB: thinking in those terms I don't find these changes relevant at all. That space is not a problem and neither is fighting over those bridges.

You are severely exposed out there, especially considering there's a cap point that needs to be held for a certain amount of time. Even if this doesn't resolve the underlying issues as you say, its still an improvement.

[Babyfark McGeez]

Some fantastic maps that will run at 12 FPS

There's a reason we don't have the tools it's because we have no clue what we are doing. :P EQN is a different animal all together.

Yeah, because nobody in the community at all would be able to make maps. Just like in skyrim, or the unreal series, quake series, etc. etc. Players just can't make maps, right?
Or like the models in this very game. Surely nobody here would be able make content... DUDE! That doesn't make any sense.

Now there is indeed a reason we are not making maps for this right now, because unlike the games i mentioned PS2 uses quite big ass maps which simply take ages to make and therefore it would be unfeasible to let players participate in this process.
But saying we're too stupid to make maps for this is quite honestly insulting.

[Zadexin]

Why the fuck aren't these bases multi levelled with cap points and gens on each level? Why dont we fight from the top down/bottom up? How hard it is to give base caps some fucking progression?

Level 1 - Shield Gen to level 4
Level 2 - SCU shield gen
Level 3 - Spawn room & SCU
Level 4 - Shield between levels 1 & 2
Level 5 - Air pad etc.

Scatter cap points through the levels.

Lets make base caps a little more interesting FFS.

This is exactly what I am always saying. give me MORE things to blow up. More objectives to cap. Keep your stupid cover and shields and indestructible boxes and all that other crap.

This game is going in the exact OPPOSITE direction of every major fps out there. Everybody else is adding destructable EVERYTHING. PS2 is adding pointless half walls and magic barriers. I don't know about anybody else but I like fighting over realistic functional terrain. When I see stuff like a double line of half walls just dropped into the middle of a biolab corridor I think, oh look, its a paintball field.

The net result, there is going to be a landmine at every corner and shotguns on every enemy. Yay diversity!

[Root Hade]

Yeah, because nobody in the community at all would be able to make maps. Just like in skyrim, or the unreal series, quake series, etc. etc. Players just can't make maps, right?
Or like the models in this very game. Surely nobody here would be able make content... DUDE! That doesn't make any sense.

Now there is indeed a reason we are not making maps for this right now, because unlike the games i mentioned PS2 uses quite big ass maps which simply take ages to make and therefore it would be unfeasible to let players participate in this process.
But saying we're too stupid to make maps for this is quite honestly insulting.

....What? He was talking about making optimized designs on a budget? He doesn't doubt the quality at all

Originally Posted by Hamma View Post
Some fantastic maps that will run at 12 FPS


Can you read lol?

[Zadexin]

I just don't get the feeling they know what they should be doing half the time. You can argue this "fixes a problem" but lets look longer term towards continental lattice: how does this make bio lab fights any more fun, improve flow, improve against spawn camping, fix spawn location functions or solve the problems we have now let alone when potentially in excess of 500 players are dropping on a single location?

Answer: It doesn't. What it does do is follow the same knee jerked lack lustre change that follows most "lets make it fun" change.

Once again it's shitty little band aids instead of tackling (or even acknowledging in the first place) problems that repeatedly get flagged up directly. The assets look randomly placed and totally out of context other than to cause the "barrier". At least make an attempt at the suspension of disbelief with where and what you're using, as it is you might of as well recycled crates for obstacles as they make about as much sense as these head high barriers.

Experts at creating deathmatch arenas, not experts at creating logical levels and integrated designs.

Another great post.
To me this just seems like the developer was playing in a biolab and kept getting sniped while capping the point and thought "No Way, I'm too good for this to happen. I'll just fix this little problem and now nobody will ever get sniped again!" As if this was ever a problem to begin with.

Out of all the MASSIVE gameplay and design issues and suggestions I have NEVER seen a post that said "What we really need is MORE walls INSIDE a biolab!".

[ChipMHazard]

I just don't get the feeling they know what they should be doing half the time. You can argue this "fixes a problem" but lets look longer term towards continental lattice: how does this make bio lab fights any more fun, improve flow, improve against spawn camping, fix spawn location functions or solve the problems we have now let alone when potentially in excess of 500 players are dropping on a single location?

Answer: It doesn't. What it does do is follow the same knee jerked lack lustre change that follows most "lets make it fun" change.

Once again it's shitty little band aids instead of tackling (or even acknowledging in the first place) problems that repeatedly get flagged up directly. The assets look randomly placed and totally out of context other than to cause the "barrier". At least make an attempt at the suspension of disbelief with where and what you're using, as it is you might of as well recycled crates for obstacles as they make about as much sense as these head high barriers.

Experts at creating deathmatch arenas, not experts at creating logical levels and integrated designs.

I agree and I can't help but ponder why SOE still thinks that small tweaks (Which don't even necessarily address the problem) to larger issues is a good idea, they're taking the same approach to the ZOE from what we've been told. That also doesn't fill me with any degree of confidence. One would think that they would understand this, especially after the lesson they learned with optimization.

I also agree with the sentiment that bases should look like a place where people work and live, not just like an arena. Arena design is suited for MLG/competetive play, but I prefer immersive and believable level design for my day-to-day MMORPGFPS (If you can call PS2 that) gameplay.
As such I would prefer it if they spend the time doing what needs to be done instead of trying to alleviate the problem.

[Babyfark McGeez]

....What? He was talking about making optimized designs on a budget? He doesn't doubt the quality at all



Can you read lol?

Ok? Together with the "we have no clue what we are doing" comment that wasn't what i was getting from that post. How are maps that run at 12 fps fantastic anyways? They may LOOK fantastic, yeah. But i see (fps) optimization as part of the mapping process, and i don't see why a paid mapper would be better at that than a non paid mapper when given the right tools.

If i simply misunderstood hammas post, i apologize. But i would then argue in my defense that it wasn't worded very well. :p

[Carbon Copied]

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/381201744509673472

Approaching with caution.

[ringring]

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/381201744509673472

Approaching with caution.

I saw that and I await more news with a certain amount of trepidation.