Community Clash Recording TXR and MERC vs NNG and TGWW

[Hamma]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/news-community-clash-txr-and-merc-vs-nng-and-tgww-3073.htm

PlanetSide 2 Community Clash TXR and MERC vs NNG and TGWW - YouTube

[Dreadnaut]

Oh snap...

[Hamma]

Indeed. :P

[PoplicoDamn]

Dayum

[snafus]

Will be a fun match. I look forward to engaging their air wing.

[Hamma]

Yea will be interesting to see how a mostly air outfit is able to effect the fights.

[Snipefrag]

Looking forward to it.

[SolLeks]

Will be rooting for TRG and merc, go give them hell.

[Sardus]

My money is on the Connery TR folks :D

[Sardus]

Will be rooting for TRG and merc, go give them hell.

You mean TXR (although if they need me to sneak a few people in there I will) ;)

[Sledgecrushr]

I think tr is going to notch a victory here.

[Rumblepit]

Gonna give them hell thats for sure,and we are gonna try to put on a good show as well.Best of luck to NNG ,and TGWW

[Plasmaszap]

double post

[Plasmaszap]

Looking forward to it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPaGxSgbArM


http://greatwhitewhales.com/ps2stats/sig.php?username=plasmaszap&background=vs1&text=light&item_id=5224&item_name=C150%20Dalton&bump=4

[kidriot]

Gonna be rooting for TXR + Merc as well. Conneryyyy!

[Hamma]

Tonight is the night! Be sure to tune in at 8PM CDT.

[Sardus]

DO IT! hopefully test server works LOL

[Sledgecrushr]

This is going to be one helluva fight.

[EVILPIG]

So, is this going to remain pure as scheduled, or will other outfits be involved?

[Kalee J]

Let's go TGWW!

[Hamma]

So, is this going to remain pure as scheduled, or will other outfits be involved?

It's going to be the four outfits involved at this time, only way it would change is if for some reason they could not field enough but we don't foresee that.

Just over an hour and a half from now!

[Hamma]

Great matchup tonight recording should be up soon.

[Malorn]

Hurry up and post it! I was unable to watch, really excited to see it!

And nobody spoil the ending until I get a chance to see it!

[Larington]

Twitch auto recording here:
http://www.twitch.tv/agntv/b/465010875

[Rothnang]

I thought it was an interesting match. What really stuck out to me was how much damage those Liberators were inflicting on the TR, and how little they did to contest them.

I went into watching this thinking that the TR had a huge advantage because they were fighting an outfit that is pretty much the de facto Liberator outfit of PS2, and I thought it was going to be pretty easy to get TGWW completely out of their element with some well placed AA and fighter attacks. The exact opposite happened, TGWW was able to do what they do best essentially unmolested for the whole bout.

The TR opened with a huge number of Mosquitos, but they were destroyed in short order. TGWW simply had more highly trained pilots, so the air war tipped their way rather rapidly. At this point TR basically conceded air superiority to the Vanu completely in both halves of the match, which proved to be a fatal mistake. There were some single Skyguards and Bursters being deployed, but at no time did the TR organize any real air denial, which cost them dozens of Sunderers and thereby crippled their mobility.

Another thing I found noteworthy was that throughout the entire match I didn't see a single MBT being deployed, and Lightnings were all Skyguards. There really seems to be not much room for tanks in high level play at this point.

The ground game was pretty much spot on for both sides. It was hard to follow what exactly was going on (This kind of thing really needs a tactical map where you can see everyone moving around), but you could tell that both outfits were hitting the right targets. NNG showing their typical utilitarian play style, going exactly where they can do the most damage with the least amount of effort, and the TR making several amazing pushes despite taking heavy fire from Liberators.

Ultimately it was the VSs ability to bring in air support at any base that was under threat that tipped it their way.

[Koadster]

At the end breakdown.. Luperza saying how the VS used proxies to cover control points and never having seen that happen before.. Yeah well if SOE fucking changed the claymores, maybe TR could do that to. Hopefully from seeing something like this they will fix them.

[Rolfski]

The air dominance on Nexus in this game worries me (although I acknowledge that squad deploy/beacon deploy weren't implemented in this game), because air is not something you can easily apply as a tactic.

It takes hundreds of hours to become anywhere near a competitive pilot and there are only a few outfits in the game that can sustain a competitive air wing. Which means this whole competitive thing can potentially become completely dominated by a few air ninja outfits that are out there.

[TorinPS]

It takes hundreds of hours to become anywhere near a competitive pilot and there only a few outfits in the game that can sustain a competitive air wing. Which means this whole competitive thing can potentially become completely dominated by a few air ninja outfits that are out there.

So.. for a competitive air game, you think inexperienced people should be able to compete? If 25% of your allotted players can be allocated to air, you're good. If you can't get 25% of your players either interested in the air game or willing to practice and learn it well, what does that say about the outfit?

Every competitive combined arms game (Battlefield) has always had an element of air superiority. Given how important it is to winning conflicts, how can a 'competitive outfit' even consider neglecting it?

If you ask me, an outfit without a competitive air wing is not a competitive outfit. There are plenty of good pilots on all servers, though usually spread out around various outfits, 1 or 2 pilots each. If someone were to want to play competitively, they would need to recruit.

Edit: It also doesn't help that SOE has made AA so powerful that new people are highly discouraged from even getting into the air game to begin with. Most people who are still doing it, have been doing it practically from day 1, and are too stubborn to give it up.

[Sledgecrushr]

Its my opinion that AA is very weak. Im not a good pilot at all and I havent died to ground based aa in wuite some time. Burster range is very short and skyguards are easily killed by air. Meanwhile you are running aa its all kind of a one trick pony, mostly ineffective against everything else. Yes in the nexus right now if you rule the air you will win the game.

[Hamma]

Yea you can find the recording on twitch at least until we get a YouTube version up typically on Fridays.

[snafus]

Its my opinion that AA is very weak. Im not a good pilot at all and I havent died to ground based aa in wuite some time. Burster range is very short and skyguards are easily killed by air. Meanwhile you are running aa its all kind of a one trick pony, mostly ineffective against everything else. Yes in the nexus right now if you rule the air you will win the game.

Though it is 100% true if you own the air in the Nexus the fight is over with. The main issue isn't the effectiveness of AA as it can dominate when deployed correctly. The issue with the Nexus is the base design and geography are absolutely in favor of air. On almost every base it is near impossible to do anything without air being able to absolutely control the fight. And even if you do pull heavy AA the high passes and mountains that separate the map allow for air to do sweeping passes while taking minimal damage.

[TorinPS]

Its my opinion that AA is very weak. Im not a good pilot at all and I havent died to ground based aa in wuite some time. Burster range is very short and skyguards are easily killed by air. Meanwhile you are running aa its all kind of a one trick pony, mostly ineffective against everything else. Yes in the nexus right now if you rule the air you will win the game.
You need to distinguish between AA in the greater PS2, and AA on the nexus. Given the compact terrain, the mountains surrounding every base, AA is by it's nature very limited.

AA in the greater PS2 is very powerful right now, especially against Liberators.

AA on the Nexus is limited by the finite assets (people, resources) able to be dedicated to AA, and still be able to compete in taking points, etc.

AA on the Nexus is mostly as it should be: an air-based endeavor. The only true counter to air, is air. If you cannot compete in the air, you lose the air battle. If you cannot compete on the ground, you lose the ground battle. To be competitive, you need to be able to do both.

[Aarth]

Its my opinion that AA is very weak. Im not a good pilot at all and I havent died to ground based aa in wuite some time. Burster range is very short and skyguards are easily killed by air. Meanwhile you are running aa its all kind of a one trick pony, mostly ineffective against everything else. Yes in the nexus right now if you rule the air you will win the game.

You have flown for a total of 8 hrs and killed a total of 8 people. Either you have not flown in an actual fight, instead just flying to bail out at a target site, or AA/Air defense has been extremely effective against you.

AA is quite effective although less mobile then air. Skyguards while killable are very threatening to to air and quite deadly in the hands of a good gunner, properly organized they can move well with armor (repair/ammo sundies help to). AA turrets are similar though stationary. Bursters also work well at pushing air off the point though they don't have the area denial that Skyguards can grant. Lock-ons of course round this out and are a very low cost way of pushing away the sky. Of course with all of this, coordination in a fire team with AA greatly magnifies its effectiveness.

The best way with dealing with air is either other air, or a well coordinated well practiced AA fire team. Ad Hoc AA units will do just fine in general but versus well trained air squads you need to have well trained AA squad at the very least.

[Sledgecrushr]

I watched the CC and it seemed to me that aa is almost completely ineffective in the nexus. Tgww and nng were able to keep a sizable airball up the entire fight. I did see txr and exe try to make a dent several several times but ground based aa was not up to the task.

[TorinPS]

A handful of people doing ground AA is not going to be able to deter 4 libs and like 10 ESFs.

The ground AA was a sporadic DB MAX, or a single skyguard, or 2 or 3 guys with Strikers.

Given the amount of terrain that can be used as quick cover, you need to really make a concerted effort, not some half-hearted attempt.

But really, the only true counter to air is other air. If you want to deal with air, and can't do it with air, you're going to lose the war of attrition.

[Karzi]

I watched the CC and it seemed to me that aa is almost completely ineffective in the nexus. Tgww and nng were able to keep a sizable airball up the entire fight. I did see txr and exe try to make a dent several several times but ground based aa was not up to the task.

AA on nexus is fine how it is because Nexus is SO SMALL. It took 30 seconds to get with my scythe the the other WG , if it weren for all those mountains there wouldnt be any Air game in the nexus because of the insane AA positions there.
4 AA turrets right next to each other? Deadly you cant kill that with Air , support it with 2 more skyguards and you have a no fly zone .
Yes its right in front of your WG so it only helps you when you got pushed back to their which is perfectly fine.

If you got pushed back there and you need the AA , that it means that you are loosing but you get home advantage of your WG. But after that line you have to do everything with YOUR ressources. Those islands were made for MLG that means that they need to be balanced and that means that they dont support scrub play . With scrub play i mean people realing on Lock ons with a big range on open field to deal with enemies , which is the situation on the live server . It is really open , AA turrets are a high positions with a good view so they can shoot you for 1000 meters , which is almost the entire nexus.

[Kount]

Controlling the Air in the Nexus seems to be a theme with the last two CC events. AA in this environment (48v48) cannot effectively come from ground units, and must come from Air assets themselves. On the live servers you are able get yourself a critical mass of bodies able to dedicate themselves to AA (burster nest, striker nest, etc.) while in these matches every ground body is pulling double duty dealing with infantry and armor. You cannot effectively place the amount of bodies you need on the ground to combat the Air Threat and must maintain that superiority through your own Air assets.

As was pointed out last night by myself and others, the nexus is a little too big for 48v48. The geography is pretty awesome and bases well thought out, however there are just too many bases. Some suggestions if it stays at 48v48 would be to drop the base number to 5 or just have the platoons fight down a single lane. Since programming bases out is of the question, until you get a 96v96 you really only need to use one lane. Would keep the pace of the battle frantic and show of outfit(s) skills in their chosen specialty.

[EVILPIG]

The lack of Beacon or Squad Deploy strengthens air dominance. I'd like to see those functions added back in.

[Rolfski]

So.. for a competitive air game, you think inexperienced people should be able to compete? If 25% of your allotted players can be allocated to air, you're good. If you can't get 25% of your players either interested in the air game or willing to practice and learn it well, what does that say about the outfit?

Keep in mind that Community Clash is intended for every outfit, not just the esport ones. Knowing that your outfit will be dead in the water on Nexus if you don't sustain at least a wing of BR 100 reverse thrusting ninjas, is not exactly a tempting invite to participate in these Community Clash series.

On a competitive map, air should be a valid tactic but never the only one as now seems to be the case here (although it's a bit early for final conclusions). That's just boring to watch and bad game design. Any tactic needs a counter and atm AA seems too weak on this particular map to be an effective counter.


Every competitive combined arms game (Battlefield) has always had an element of air superiority. Given how important it is to winning conflicts, how can a 'competitive outfit' even consider neglecting it?
Games like Battlefield series only allow for a few vehicles in the game, which prevents all kinds of balancing issues Planetside 2 had from the start.
Vehicle play in this game is just way too different from any other game because of its scale.


If you ask me, an outfit without a competitive air wing is not a competitive outfit. There are plenty of good pilots on all servers, though usually spread out around various outfits, 1 or 2 pilots each. If someone were to want to play competitively, they would need to recruit.

This exactly illustrates why the air game is so broken atm. The skill vs reward balance is completely whacked. If you don't spend 500+ hours into flying, you simply have no place in the air which is ridiculous, even for esports outfits. Knowing that you have to rely on recruiting outside to stay competitive is too much of a threshold, even for them.
It's ok for this game to have an insanely high skill ceiling but it should never result in insanely high rewards like this match painfully made clear.
A top ace 1000+ hours pilot should only be 20% stronger vs a mediocre pilot, not 2000%.

[necrate]

A top ace 1000+ hours pilot should only be 20% stronger vs a mediocre pilot, not 2000%.

What makes you say that it isn't already like that? 20% is generous given the current state of the game. Saying that you need 500+ hours to be competitive is ridiculous. Don't use such hyperbole when trying to make a serious argument.

Also, without some sort of smart matchmaking system there will always be a significant likelihood of uneven matches in terms of practice and experience. In this case it was a good match and it was almost tied up at one point. That shows that the strategy used by the winning side was not without its glaring flaws.

[TorinPS]

Keep in mind that Community Clash is intended for every outfit, not just the esport ones. Knowing that your outfit will be dead in the water on Nexus if you don't sustain at least a wing of BR 100 reverse thrusting ninjas, is not exactly a tempting invite to participate in these Community Clash series.
It is true, which is why it seems that RC has been attempting to pair people up based on this reality. Why FC faced TIW, etc.

You can't of course everyone to be a good pairing. You could argue that last night's pairing was not the best, but it wasn't horrible. MERC has some good pilots, I know our comms reflected a constant push to kill SNAFU, which was a difficult endeavor. I'm sure future match-ups will give some additional analysis to the air side of things, as it is important.

On a competitive map, air should be a valid tactic but never the only one as now seems to be the case here (although it's a bit early for final conclusions). That's just boring to watch and bad game design. Any tactic needs a counter and atm AA seems too weak on this particular map to be an effective counter.
I'd argue that on a competitive map, combined arms is the only valid tactic. You need to be able to win all aspects of the fight, to win the overall battle. If you lose the air fight, everything else falls apart. Just like if you 'drew' on the air fight, but lose the ground fight. Air has a counter, air. This is actually how PS2 was designed from the beginning, and it is only the mass proliferation of easy-to-use AA and the droves of people spamming skill-less weapons that creates the environment you see on public servers. When you limit the game to a finite amount of people on both sides, that becomes a more reasonable share of the equation. AA has been 'put in its place', to where it is really only effective over the base it is employed (not 3 hexes away like it is on the public servers), so if you are going to pull it, you need to pull a substantial enough amount to actually fight it. Want to kill 4 ESFs and 2 Liberators shelling your spawn? You better be planning to pull like 8 DB MAXes or multiple 3+ Skyguards in short order. Or your own ESFs.

But you can't rely on the pubbie masses to do the job for you. This was always the issue with AA early on in PS2, and why it got buffed so much to where it is now. People always assume someone else will do it. But when you're playing 48 v 48, there is nobody to do it for you. And when you don't do it yourself, you suffer the consequences.

A lot of the previous RCCCs have been very focused on infantry gameplay confined to a single base. That's all fine and dandy, but then you get battle islands, and open it up to 48v48 gameplay. These maps were designed with the core principles of PS2 combined arms play in mind. You get air superiority, you can pull ground vehicles and push with infantry onto points. You want to change that status quo? You start with the air.

Games like Battlefield series only allow for a few vehicles in the game, which prevents all kinds of balancing issues Planetside 2 had from the start.
Vehicle play in this game is just way too different from any other game because of its scale.
In a way yes, but in a way no. Yes, you're usually limited to a handful of aircraft, 2-4. You also only usually play with 12 or so people, so it's about the equivalent split. Sure, you could pull 48 aircraft, but you wouldn't get anything done. While there are not a finite amount of vehicles (except as limited by resources) to use, there is a finite amount of people you can dedicate to them, and still be able to take bases.

This exactly illustrates why the air game is so broken atm. The skill vs reward balance is completely whacked. If you don't spend 500+ hours into flying, you simply have no place in the air which is ridiculous, even for esports outfits. Knowing that you have to rely on recruiting outside to stay competitive is too much of a threshold, even for them.
It's ok for this game to have an insanely high skill ceiling but it should never result in insanely high rewards like this match painfully made clear.
A top ace 1000+ hours pilot should only be 20% stronger vs a mediocre pilot, not 2000%.
That is definitely an opinion. There are infantry equivalents of the ace vs. mediocre pilot scenario, and they are so significantly better than it isn't even a reasonable pairing. People who are so better in tanks than other people, that they have absolutely no chance to lose.

Flying is one of the highest skill cap activities in the game, and the people who got good at it, are the ones who spend very significant time doing it. If you want to go up against 15 guys who have spent thousands of hours doing nothing but flying, you need to bring the same thing.

Air in PS2 has become mostly a joke, because the number of people on the ground pulling AA at random, vastly outnumbers the people with the interest, motivation and willpower to keep trying at the air game. The air game is rough. Practically everything can kill you, especially at ranges you have no ability to retaliate. Very few people overall are dedicated enough to stick to it. The people who are, get really good at it, and compared with the average player with 100 hours in an ESF, are significantly better as a result.

Air superiority is a key aspect of the overall flow of battle, this is how the game was designed. If you want to use a soft counter (G2A) to win that battle, you need to allocate pretty damn significant resources to it, or don't bother. If you can't use your hard counter (air) to counter other air, then consider yourself outmatched.

This is where it will be key for the RCCC and MLG (if they ever amount to anything) to pick proper matchups.

If MLG ever does become a thing, people playing in that competitively will be faced with the exact same scenario.

And if you nerf air because of the Nexus, then air becomes even more useless in the 'public PS2 world'.

[Rolfski]

What makes you say that it isn't already like that? 20% is generous given the current state of the game. Saying that you need 500+ hours to be competitive is ridiculous. Don't use such hyperbole when trying to make a serious argument. 2000% stronger is just another way of saying that you literally stand no chance, not even a little one as good pilot vs a top ace pilot, which is absolutely true for the current state of the air game.

And yes, you really need hundreds of hours to get to that level. To illustrate, I suggest you watch the channel from a player called MattiAce (http://www.youtube.com/user/MattiAceGaming/videos), who spends a significant part of his time on PTS only to train his skills vs other ace pilots.


In this case it was a good match and it was almost tied up at one point. That shows that the strategy used by the winning side was not without its glaring flaws.
I agree and I think its too early to draw to conclusions already that air is too powerful on that map. I can think of a few counter tactics myself I didn't see TR performing in that mach, but air dominance is for sure something to watch out for.


And if you nerf air because of the Nexus, then air becomes even more useless in the 'public PS2 world'.

I never suggested air to be nerfed, only for levelling the playing field a bit more so mediocre pilots (which is 80+ % of the player base) can have a fun and meaningful time in the air as well.
The upcoming ESF changes, which forces you to choose between reverse thrusting capability (after burner tanks) vs extra armament, look promising in that regard.

[TorinPS]

I never suggested air to be nerfed, only for levelling the playing field a bit more so mediocre pilots (which is 80+ % of the player base) can have a fun and meaningful time in the air as well.
The upcoming ESF changes, which forces you to choose between reverse thrusting capability (after burner tanks) vs extra armament, look promising in that regard.
This has been a long-running question: How do you make air more balanced so mediocre pilots can contribute to an air battle filled with top level pilots?

Nobody has an answer. Probably because the answer should be: You can't, because they shouldn't be able to.

What you're suggesting is like saying some friends who fool around and play basketball after work together should be able to have a meaningful and fun time against an NBA all-star team. Nope.

[necrate]

2000% stronger is just another way of saying that you literally stand no chance, not even a little one as good pilot vs a top ace pilot, which is absolutely true for the current state of the air game.

This is not true at all. I think the assessment of being 20% better is more accurate in the current game, although it is still vague to use a number to argue qualitatively. A top pilot will be able to win against much less experienced pilots almost every time in a duel. That does not mean that you stand no chance, because you still can do a good amount of damage against the pilot before you die. Because this game is not about single duels, but rather quite the opposite, it makes sense that a group of top pilots could perform as well as a group of good pilots with 20% more numbers.

And yes, you really need hundreds of hours to get to that level. To illustrate, I suggest you watch the channel from a player called MattiAce (http://www.youtube.com/user/MattiAceGaming/videos), who spends a significant part of his time on PTS only to train his skills vs other ace pilots.

To outclass nearly everyone else in the game, yes you will probably need to spend hundreds of hours. This is because others will continue to get better as time goes along and you need to keep up. Why shouldn't a guy who spent that much time practicing and making an effort to get better actually be better as a result? However, that is not what you argued previously.

You said, "If you don't spend 500+ hours into flying, you simply have no place in the air", and I replied that this is simply not true. To be competitive you don't need to spend nearly that much time. I would say 30-40 hours of flying (against other pilots! not rocket podding) is sufficient to make you a decent pilot. I hope you understand that there is a spectrum of skill and that not everyone is like MattiAce. You are assuming that everyone in the sky has spent hundreds of hours dogfighting, but from my experiences those people probably only make up close to 1% of people I've fought.

[snafus]

I think you guys are getting a little out of hand trying to use the Nexus fight as an argument for over all aircraft balance in PS2. Fighting on the Nexus is night and day difference then your usual play on live server. And you should not take what happens there as evidence of anythings power in the live game.

But on a second note I would like to propose an idea that could make the Nexus a more enjoyable ground focused fight. I have had the pleasure to participate in two 48VS48 matches on the Nexus and both times the deciding factor of the match is air and air alone. This cannot be the case if we want to have a healthy and competitive future for PS2. No one aspect should hold that much sway over the match.

I wish to propose that we enact a new rule of only allowing one squad of air per team to be active. This is by no means an attempt at watering down the tactical options of the matches but actually giving more. By enacting this one squad of air only teams will have to implement the best squad make ups of LIB to ESF ratios. This will also encourage a more consistent air fight during the match as your platoon will be able to supply you with ESF for the entire match.

The other positive attribute created by this change is simply allowing ground to be more relevant. By forcing teams to only have 12 players airborne you will still have a chance to progress the fight even if you lack Air superiority. Though the air wing will still be a devastating factor in the fight it wont be at the degree of match ending power air has now on the Nexus. I feel this will force more skilled combat from the air wings and allow the ground battles to ensue which will be the key factor in encouraging a growing viewership of Competitive PS2 play.

[necrate]

I wish to propose that we enact a new rule of only allowing one squad of air per team to be active. This is by no means an attempt at watering down the tactical options of the matches but actually giving more.

I just wanted to note that this does not make any sense. The same options available with the limitation are also available without it. This makes the new set of options a subset of the old options. Then note that without the limitation you could potentially have one more Liberator than with the limitation. This makes the options available under the proposed limitation a strict subset of the old.

This could be a potential separate ruleset that they could implement for outfits who want stricter rules on force makeups or are looking for a different kind of combat than otherwise possible. I don't know if they would want to make the effort to enforce this rule because it would require many details and plenty of overhead.

[PredatorFour]

If your a top ace fighter pilot who is willing to put the time in you SHOULD hands down shit on a mediocre pilot who is half arsed at flying his fighter. None argument IMO.



Nexus is interesting as you can have a massive air battle in the skies whilst the ground troops march underneath, i think it will make for some great strategies and fights.

[Violin]

I just wanted to note that this does not make any sense.....lolwut?

I just wanted to note that what Snafus said made a ton more sense than whatever you just rambled on about. :doh:

Hats off to NNG and TGWW for bring home the W for the VS. Looking forward to a chance at a match on the Nexus looks like a blast.

[TorinPS]

I wish to propose that we enact a new rule of only allowing one squad of air per team to be active. This is by no means an attempt at watering down the tactical options of the matches but actually giving more. By enacting this one squad of air only teams will have to implement the best squad make ups of LIB to ESF ratios. This will also encourage a more consistent air fight during the match as your platoon will be able to supply you with ESF for the entire match.
I see this as further disadvantaging the side with a lesser skilled air squad. If you are allowed 12 people in the air at any given time, and your 12 people cannot compete, you outright lose the air battle. You don't have the option of putting 24 people in the air to try to counter it, you just lose the air battle. And IMO, 12 people in the air is still more than plenty to handle 48 people on the ground. 1 Liberator is still ample to hold down a spawn when they don't have to worry about air threats. Basically this turns all air vs air battles into strictly a matter of skill and the 'right' air squad loadout. (lib/esf balance) Not that this is particularly bad, it just gives even fewer options to outfits with less experienced air squads.

[snafus]

I see this as further disadvantaging the side with a lesser skilled air squad. If you are allowed 12 people in the air at any given time, and your 12 people cannot compete, you outright lose the air battle. You don't have the option of putting 24 people in the air to try to counter it, you just lose the air battle. And IMO, 12 people in the air is still more than plenty to handle 48 people on the ground. 1 Liberator is still ample to hold down a spawn when they don't have to worry about air threats. Basically this turns all air vs air battles into strictly a matter of skill and the 'right' air squad loadout. (lib/esf balance) Not that this is particularly bad, it just gives even fewer options to outfits with less experienced air squads.

And that is a fact that cannot be avoided until they fix base design. But by reducing the air wings to one squad it still leaves the ground to have some semblance of a chance to succeed even without air superiority.

Yes a squad of aircraft can still dominate on the nexus, but it brings it down to a point where ground can at least move up on one side of the map if your air focuses A2G. Currently the Nexus is purely decided by air combat. There are no other tactics to win on this map pure and simple.

We as a community need to set a standard to limit the zerg factor of air other wise it will be the only combat to happen at competitive levels. It is completely unacceptable that the infantry or ground fight is the back seat compared to the air fight. We have to find a way to balance this out otherwise you wont get the viewership by simply watching air zergs duke it out for 10 mins. Followed by the winner camping the loser with libs for the remainder of the match.

[Sledgecrushr]

Under the current conditions Snafus has a fine idea. By limiting air in the nexus this should lead to a more enjoyable well rounded viewing experience.

[Lepalose]

I see this as further disadvantaging the side with a lesser skilled air squad. If you are allowed 12 people in the air at any given time, and your 12 people cannot compete, you outright lose the air battle. You don't have the option of putting 24 people in the air to try to counter it, you just lose the air battle. And IMO, 12 people in the air is still more than plenty to handle 48 people on the ground. 1 Liberator is still ample to hold down a spawn when they don't have to worry about air threats. Basically this turns all air vs air battles into strictly a matter of skill and the 'right' air squad loadout. (lib/esf balance) Not that this is particularly bad, it just gives even fewer options to outfits with less experienced air squads.

But this explains why it gets out of hand. Pulling 24 aircraft to deal with 12 so that you can dominate the air would work, yes. But then pulling 36 aircraft to deal with 24 is more effective too.

So then why not just put 44 people in aircraft and have 3 infiltrators on the ground to do the ghost capping? Because honestly in the current state, that is a stronger force then actually dedicating any more forces to ground battles.

But some of this is broken mechanics currently on Nexus. When you are not in the base hex of one you own, you cannot spawn back at any other base. That means lots of redeploys to the WG, pulling resources again to get to somewhere new. Oh, and if you don't have the air superiority? Then you are going to be attacked coming out of WG. Galaxies will definitely die, sunderers most likely as well. So your mobility is extremely limited. Combine it with the lack of spawn beacons & squad deploy, it quite simply means that either you control the air or you spend most of your resources trying to get to a location you need to be from WG.

Moreover, because air dominance allows for easier mobility, in combination with this issue with spawning at bases behind you, you cannot set up a defence - that means basically to defend bases like Nexus Secure essentially becomes an attack against your own base.

Further, to answer everyone saying we pulled sporadic AA, I would argue multiple times in both my squad and in another squad did we have people go full AA. Did we have resources for Skyguards & AA MAXes everytime? No, definitely not. AA grounder missile just can't make up the difference against skilled pilots. Indeed, AA ground based units were simply a deterrent against the air, and completely ineffective. But the issue is that while this AA is needed, it is a huge resource pull. This means that if you lose the air, not only have you lost air resources (the most effective resources against fighting air), you also burn all other resources doing deterrence.

To speak of the base design, there is essentially one base (Nexus Omega/Alpha) that largely limits air's effect on the game. All other bases require infantry to move with almost no cover from air from point to point. For example, Bitter Gorge can basically be completely dominated by air as the points are basically exposed to it. Defending becomes less about engaging other infantry forces and more about scrambling to avoid air-to-ground fire on your way to point.

In addition, there is literally no where you can protect sunderers from air at most bases. That means if you do not have air dominance, you get one shot to hold point if attacking.

These reasons stated (poor and limited spawn mechanics, AA as a deterrent for these sized battles, open base & map designs that allow air to dominate ground forces) I believe that my hyperbole of 44 air, 3 infiltrator strategy could actually be viable in the current state of these matches, with the current form of the Nexus, with the balancing of weapons.

Is this a complaint? Well, partially. I love all aspects of PS2 gameplay, and I feel that allowing air to be the only deciding factor in these matches would be poor for highlighting all the other kinds of gameplay that PS2 offers. That said, air battles are epic and air dominance should have an effect on battles on the ground.

Of course, this could flow into a discussion about weapon-platform balance that we could also have, particularly about the multi-purpose role of all aircraft in the game, but I will leave that for another time.

[Rolfski]

What you're suggesting is like saying some friends who fool around and play basketball after work together should be able to have a meaningful and fun time against an NBA all-star team. Nope.
Actually yes, because these casuals are playing on the same daily basketball field/server as the NBA players in this game. If you let these NBA stars completely destroy every casual that enters the basketball field, then guess what? Casuals will stay away and your basketball game becomes a ghost town, just like air is atm in the game. They designed basketball leagues for a reason you know.

If you design a game where you put casuals/mediocre players in the same environment as uber-skilled hardcore pro's/no-lifers (mind you, not every game does that), than you better come up with mechanics that ensure everybody will have a good time or this game will die out.

Because this game is not about single duels, but rather quite the opposite, it makes sense that a group of top pilots could perform as well as a group of good pilots with 20% more numbers. This is somewhat true. If anything, the current air game has forced players to stick together. On an individual 1 vs 1 level, which is often the case on off-hours, you still won't stand a chance vs a top ace though. There's simply no room for lone-woving any more in the air, which is not good. You hear even top pilots complaining about it.


I would say 30-40 hours of flying (against other pilots! not rocket podding) is sufficient to make you a decent pilot. Not on my server. I've spend double that amount in my mosquito (fair to say, it includes rocket podding) but the moment I lift off on Miller, some Artorius, Justicia or MattiAce type will instagib me within a minute after arriving on the battlefield, guaranteed. Needless to say, I stopped any serious flying ages ago. Any game that forces you into some boring training (VR/PTS) environment for serious hours in order to have even remotely fun, has design issues. No matter how you look at it.

I think you guys are getting a little out of hand trying to use the Nexus fight as an argument for over all aircraft balance in PS2. Fighting on the Nexus is night and day difference then your usual play on live server. And you should not take what happens there as evidence of anythings power in the live game. I disagree. Like other games, competitive play functions as a microscope for balance issues and PS2 is not any different in this regard.
Nexus so far has painfully shown how broken the air game is (be top ace or be gone) and artificial rules like your proposal might actually end up being necessary to keep the competitive game alive for the time being.

[Aarth]

Actually yes, because these casuals are playing on the same daily basketball field/server as the NBA players in this game. If you let these NBA stars completely destroy every casual that enters the basketball field, then guess what? Casuals will stay away and your basketball game becomes a ghost town, just like air is atm in the game. They designed basketball leagues for a reason you know.

This is a show match, they didn't align the relative skills perfectly and can't. In order to do that you need an extensive set of matches to show who fits in what leagues. It would be like Das Anfall or Future Crew going up against a similar sized infantry crew, if that crew is mediocre it will be a blow out. We aren't proposing that only a subsection of infantry 12 v 12 are the only amount allowed to fight any any one point on the map are we? The point is 12 top pilots will still blow out 12 semi prepared pilots. We can not force the game to equalize skill between two evenly numbered groups, that more then anything will ruin a game long term.

[Rumblepit]

We knew going in what air dominance meant on nexus , Everything...No need for armor, no need for infantry, and no need to capture any bases. Once you have the air you own the map. Its that simple.

We were short pilots going in,but we had a backup plan. Well until the rules were changed at the last min per request of NNG and TGWW. We could have brought in a bunch of pilots from Connery to help out with the air that we knew they would have ,but we dont roll like that. It also was stated in the rules that this wasn't allowed.

We played by the book ,and we lost to NNG ,TGWW ,and the pilots they brought in from other outfits on Matherson.

At the end of the fight I said Good Game. Knowing what i know now I retract that statement.

Why bother making rules if you dont enforce them?

[Plasmaszap]

We played by the book ,and we lost to NNG ,TGWW ,and the pilots they brought in from other outfits on Watterson.

?

Not sure if trolling or completly of the track.

Waterson pilot ? Seriously ?

[Dreadnaut]

...until the rules were changed at the last min per request of NNG and TGWW. We could have brought in a bunch of pilots from Connery to help out with the air that we knew they would have ,but we dont roll like that. It also was stated in the rules that this wasn't allowed.

We played by the book ,and we lost to NNG ,TGWW ,and the pilots they brought in from other outfits on Watterson.
Rules changed at the last minute? What rule was that?

Are you referring to the Squad Beacon rule? We were told we would have beacons and that about 10 players from each outfit would get bumped to BR 10. Then we were later told that beacons were broken and could not be used. We changed our plans to accommodate for no beacons and had 2 days to prepare and cert'd Ejection Seat Libs with plans on how to drop people etc.

DAY OF the match, they tell us, "Oh btw, beacons now work". We planned for 2 days on how to operate without beacons, so I voted 'no' on allowing beacons.

What pilots did we use from Waterson? Enlighten me. Or are you referring to Mattherson?

If you think that what you saw is any different from what you'll see in a top tier MLG match you are quite mistaken. Our air force is very very good, but I have no doubt there are better.

Wanna know what rule I asked for everyone to agree on before the match that got shot down?? "No A2A missiles".

We wanted a skilled fight in the air, and we were told no by the TR side. That's ok, my guys didn't want lockons and no one had to even be told not to use them. Had anyone pulled lockons I would have booted them from the platoon.

[Rumblepit]

lol my bad,,, that was a typo,,,, I meant to say Matherson.... Do you want to name the pilots you brought over? and explain why you broke the rules? Or are you going to deny to it?

Last min change was spawn beacons,,,, you guys didnt want them at the last min so we couldn't use them.

We were told that we were allowed the have 10 players with beacons when they went over the rules. May not seem like a big change ,but to a infantry outfit in a air game they mean everything.

FYI when you search for outfit stats you can see which players joined on what dates;)

[TorinPS]

Phrygen of BWC posted something along this exact same lines not 15 minutes ago, and I'll post here exactly what I posted there:

"I think you're hideously misrepresenting what is going on. You do realize that like 90% of the people in TGWW play 2 or all 3 factions, right? You do realize that those same people are also in QRY?

Same group of people make up multiple outfits on multiple factions. NNG asked TGWW to team up with them, and we did. TGWW and QRY are very similar in player composition. If QRY competes, you're going to see like 90% of the same people.

QRY isn't gone, but some of the key players (Naterian, Corewin, Rudelord, Thundahawk) have been playing other games lately, and came back to PS2 to play something competitive.

TGWW/QRY/Mattherson Pilots have been recruiting for many months now. You may not realize it, but this has been in the works since MLG 'came onto the scene', in hopes of making a seriously elite air group for competition.
What happened last night was a realization of that effort. We didn't recruit people last minute from other factions/outfits, we simply got everyone to log on at once and play in RCCC, something we've been planning and working towards for a long time."

A group of about 30 really good pilots and Liberator gunners have been playing together for many months now. A lot of us play all 3 factions, some just 2. We're in the same outfits on other factions as well. We've been planning and working with each other, recruiting towards this effort for 3-4 months. We didn't just snag some people from other factions/outfits to make some ringer squad for RCCC. We've been playing together and building up to this, in order to do exactly what we did: bring a critical mass of great air players to the competitive scene.

We did that. We didn't break any rules, these people have been with us all along. It is pretty lame that you use some misinformation fed to you by who-knows, in order to throw some mud on what was otherwise a good match.

Last min change was spawn beacons,,,, you guys didnt want them at the last min so we couldn't use them.
It is not that we didn't want them, it is that we had no one who could use them. Everyone was under the impression that SOE would be able to level 10 people from NNV to level 10, so they could use beacons. At the last minute, SOE said they couldn't, which left NNG with 0 people who could drop beacons. As a result, RCCC, not 'us' ruled that it was only fair to not allow beacons. Next time, things will probably be different, people will have time to level up before the match, and it won't be a big deal. But if beacons were allowed, it would have been something that you guys had, and you guys only.

[Rumblepit]

Phrygen of BWC posted something along this exact same lines not 15 minutes ago, and I'll post here exactly what I posted there:

"I think you're hideously misrepresenting what is going on. You do realize that like 90% of the people in TGWW play 2 or all 3 factions, right? You do realize that those same people are also in QRY?

Same group of people make up multiple outfits on multiple factions. NNG asked TGWW to team up with them, and we did. TGWW and QRY are very similar in player composition. If QRY competes, you're going to see like 90% of the same people.

QRY isn't gone, but some of the key players (Naterian, Corewin, Rudelord, Thundahawk) have been playing other games lately, and came back to PS2 to play something competitive.

TGWW/QRY/Mattherson Pilots have been recruiting for many months now. You may not realize it, but this has been in the works since MLG 'came onto the scene', in hopes of making a seriously elite air group for competition.
What happened last night was a realization of that effort. We didn't recruit people last minute from other factions/outfits, we simply got everyone to log on at once and play in RCCC, something we've been planning and working towards for a long time."

A group of about 30 really good pilots and Liberator gunners have been playing together for many months now. A lot of us play all 3 factions, some just 2. We're in the same outfits on other factions as well. We've been planning and working with each other, recruiting towards this effort for 3-4 months. We didn't just snag some people from other factions/outfits to make some ringer squad for RCCC. We've been playing together and building up to this, in order to do exactly what we did: bring a critical mass of great air players to the competitive scene.

We did that. We didn't break any rules, these people have been with us all along. It is pretty lame that you use some misinformation fed to you by who-knows, in order to throw some mud on what was otherwise a good match.


It is not that we didn't want them, it is that we had no one who could use them. Everyone was under the impression that SOE would be able to level 10 people from NNV to level 10, so they could use beacons. At the last minute, SOE said they couldn't, which left NNG with 0 people who could drop beacons. As a result, RCCC, not 'us' ruled that it was only fair to not allow beacons. Next time, things will probably be different, people will have time to level up before the match, and it won't be a big deal. But if beacons were allowed, it would have been something that you guys had, and you guys only.

Did they not say only OUTFIT MEMBERS ARE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE? So what your telling is ,because you guys play with these people in a alliance it makes it ok for you to break the rules???

We were all told on the same day that beacons were allowed, the next day we had our guys on test getting br 10 so we would have our beacons. Which are a very tactical tool for infantry to have. So because you guys are slackers we were denied a very important part of our infantry tactics.

call it what you want, call me a poor sport, at least I play by the rules.

We are in a alliance too ,TTA . There are tones of pilots in our alliance that are much better in the air than me ,and if I knew it was ok to bring any player on our server than I would have been happy to sit back ,and give my spot to one of many ace pilots on Connery.But we play by the book, and if this was a real competitive match you would have been disqualified for cheating..... Thats all im saying...

You brought in players from other outfits after you were told not to. You dicked around until game day ,and never got beacons for your guys ,and you screw us out of ours because your slackers...

I wonder if the RCCC would rule it unfair that you guys brought in players from other outfits?

You broke the rules set by RCCC.

[TorinPS]

Did they not say only OUTFIT MEMBERS ARE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE? So what your telling is ,because you guys play with these people in a alliance it makes it ok for you to break the rules???
Let me quote some clarification made by RCCC about this rule for you:

3.This rule was intended to stop outfits from pulling a number of "ringers" from whatever outfit to participate even if they don't normally play together.

We absolutely did not do that. We normally play together, the formality of an outfit invite does not change that.

(quote is from Torkz, here (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/ccdy6me?context=3))

We were all told on the same day that beacons were allowed, the next day we had our guys on test getting br 10 so we would have our beacons. Which are a very tactical tool for infantry to have. So because you guys are slackers we were denied a very important part of our infantry tactics.
Our guys were told SOE could bump our people to level 10, then at the last second (when we had no time to do anything about it), they said "no wait, we can't". What would you expect us to do?

call it what you want, call me a poor sport, at least I play by the rules.
You are a poor sport, and we played by the same rules too. If you're too oblivious to understand the rules, don't blame it on us.

We are in a alliance too ,TTA . There are tones of pilots in our alliance that are much better in the air than me ,and if I knew it was ok to bring any player on our server than I would have been happy to sit back ,and give my spot to one of many ace pilots on Connery.But we play by the book, and if this was a real competitive match you would have been disqualified for cheating..... Thats all im saying...
Bringing 'any player on our server' that you don't actually play with, woudl have been against the rules. These are our guys, we've played with these guys for months. For the sake of whiny little girls, we added them to the outfit at the last minute to try to quell some of this retardation before it inevitably started. Apparently some people can't help themselves/

I wonder if the RCCC would rule it unfair that you guys brought in players from other outfits?
I don't know, why don't you ask them? I hope you do, so they can clarify the spirit of the rule for you (I quoted them above doing that already), and you can get this saltiness out of your system.

[Rumblepit]

Let me quote some clarification made by RCCC about this rule for you:

3.This rule was intended to stop outfits from pulling a number of "ringers" from whatever outfit to participate even if they don't normally play together.

We absolutely did not do that. We normally play together, the formality of an outfit invite does not change that.


Our guys were told SOE could bump our people to level 10, then at the last second (when we had no time to do anything about it), they said "no wait, we can't". What would you expect us to do?


You are a poor sport, and we played by the same rules too. If you're too oblivious to understand the rules, don't blame it on us.


Bringing 'any player on our server' that you don't actually play with, woudl have been against the rules. These are our guys, we've played with these guys for months. For the sake of whiny little girls, we added them to the outfit at the last minute to try to quell some of this retardation before it inevitably started. Apparently some people can't help themselves/


I don't know, why don't you ask them? I hope you do, so they can clarify the spirit of the rule for you (I quoted them above doing that already), and you can get this saltiness out of your system.

I think adding them to outfit at the last minute was a poor attempt to cover your ass. Im sure the RCCC guys are looking into it already. LOL few of those guys are NC, they dont even have VS accounts that I can see. Dose rule 3 include people you play against? Because I know some Badass pilots in FC ,NUC,and 00 that I play against that would have loved to get some of that action last night.

[TorinPS]

I think adding them to outfit at the last minute was a poor attempt to cover your ass. Im sure the RCCC guys are looking into it already. LOL few of those guys are NC, they dont even have VS accounts that I can see. Dose rule 3 include people you play against? Because I know some Badass pilots in FC ,NUC,and 00 that I play against that would have loved to get some of that action last night.

It a minor manner of speaking, yes it was, as an attempt to pre-emptively quell this sort of thing you are doing. Regardless, we followed the rules, as clarified by Torkz.

I hope they do look into it. I hope they 'rule' on it. I hope that when Dreadnaut or whoever else gives them the lowdown, they are going to tell you exactly what I did, that we followed the rule.

Everyone who played with us, has been playing with us for quite some time. There is not a single person we played with that are NC only, and don't have VS account. If you really think so, please tell me a name.

If you want to recruit better pilots into MERC, be my guest.

[Rumblepit]

It a minor manner of speaking, yes it was, as an attempt to pre-emptively quell this sort of thing you are doing. Regardless, we followed the rules, as clarified by Torkz.

I hope they do look into it. I hope they 'rule' on it. I hope that when Dreadnaut or whoever else gives them the lowdown, they are going to tell you exactly what I did, that we followed the rule.

Everyone who played with us, has been playing with us for quite some time. There is not a single person we played with that are NC only, and don't have VS account. If you really think so, please tell me a name.

If you want to recruit better pilots into MERC, be my guest.

We are not about to stoop to your level and recruit so called "better pilots" 24 hrs before a event/ competitive match. Even if Torkz said it was ok, which I doubt.If you tried this shit in a MLG match they would never allow you to compete again.

[TorinPS]

Well, I tried. I guess english isn't your native language, because you don't apparently comprehend it super great.

[EVILPIG]

and the drama ensues

[Rumblepit]

Not trying to take anything away from you guys. You had a badass air wing that clinched the win for you. Its just a shame some of them were not members of your outfit.It was stated that was against the rules, but you guys got the go ahead from torkz. I just don't see that as a win in my book. You had to stack to beat us.

Opinions vary.....

[Phrygen]

Phrygen of BWC posted something along this exact same lines not 15 minutes ago, and I'll post here exactly what I posted there:


Though i believe we resolved any confusions between myself and Torin over on Reddit, I just wanted to state for the record here that I did not imply that NNG/TGWW cheated or used ringers for their match. The top mattherson pilots have multiple character for the different factions and are often members of the same outfits.

What i wrote initially was "TGWW doing serious recruiting of the top NC and TR pilots on Mattherson. Very good for TGWW. I'll miss the QRY powerhouse though :(." I stand by that comment, the reality is the QRY is rarely seen in the air anymore on mattherson like during the summer, and TGWW has had new pilots join them in the last few weeks. That doesn't mean that a player who is a member of QRY cant also be a member of TGWW and NNG.

[TorinPS]

Not trying to take anything away from you guys. You had a badass air wing that clinched the win for you. Its just a shame some of them were not members of your outfit.

That isn't the purpose of the rule. The purpose was to prevent people who never play together, from recruiting simply for the event. We've played with these guys all along. Some of them were in TGWW before we started getting all the commitment, some of them were in NNG, all of them we've played hundreds of hours together.

Torkz said that was in the spirit of the rule. That's why we didn't feel like we needed to change our roster. We added them to the outfit as a technicality. Ask any of them though, they've all been playing with us for many months.

[TorinPS]

Though i believe we resolved any confusions between myself and Torin over on Reddit, I just wanted to state for the record here that I did not imply that NNG/TGWW cheated or used ringers for their match. The top mattherson pilots have multiple character for the different factions and are often members of the same outfits.

What i wrote initially was "TGWW doing serious recruiting of the top NC and TR pilots on Mattherson. Very good for TGWW. I'll miss the QRY powerhouse though :(." And while i stand by that comment, the reality is the QRY is rarely seen in the air anymore on mattherson like during the summer, and TGWW has had new pilots join them in the last few weeks.
Yes, agreed. I regret calling Phrygen out, I misunderstood his post. Was overly defense after this. Sorry, again. :P

[Rumblepit]

That isn't the purpose of the rule. The purpose was to prevent people who never play together, from recruiting simply for the event. We've played with these guys all along. Some of them were in TGWW before we started getting all the commitment, some of them were in NNG, all of them we've played hundreds of hours together.

Torkz said that was in the spirit of the rule. That's why we didn't feel like we needed to change our roster. We added them to the outfit as a technicality. Ask any of them though, they've all been playing with us for many months.


Well then in the spirit of the rule I guess I can say all the players ,outfits ,and factions from Matherson that participated in the event last night did well.

They should just rename this clash to Txr and Mercs vs Matherson

[Phrygen]

Yes, agreed. I regret calling Phrygen out, I misunderstood his post. Was overly defense after this. Sorry, again. :P

Again, no worries.

And before I leave this forum which I so rarely frequent ( I really should come by here more often:love:) I will simply say that the real issue here seems to be that the rules never specified how many outfits a player could be member of. Planetside 2 has a long history of faction loyalty, but the pilots of ps2... well they don't really care much for faction loyalty, at least on mattherson. They are more loyal to one another.

Obviously in an officially sanctioned MLG match, one would assume a player could only be a member of one team, but for initial stress tests and exhibition scrims with rather undeveloped rule sets, such a rule doesn't really need to be in place.

[snafus]

That isn't the purpose of the rule. The purpose was to prevent people who never play together, from recruiting simply for the event. We've played with these guys all along. Some of them were in TGWW before we started getting all the commitment, some of them were in NNG, all of them we've played hundreds of hours together.

Torkz said that was in the spirit of the rule. That's why we didn't feel like we needed to change our roster. We added them to the outfit as a technicality. Ask any of them though, they've all been playing with us for many months.

Here is the big problem I see with all this TorinPS. I regularly fly with almost all of the aces on Connery during cross faction play. I have even had alts in some of my favorite enemy outfits to fly with them. To be honest I have played with almost all of those guys for the past year of PS2.

Now with your logic it is OK If they were to join MERCS right before a match goes live. It would also be OK if I made an alt and joined any of the enemy outfits before they compete due to the fact I have played with them so much.

The issue here is we shouldn't be encouraging 4th faction play styles into a supposed competitive fight. If I knew it was bring your cool kids friends kind of match I could have indulged you to your hearts delight.

I won't call you guys cheaters or take away from your win as you boys earned it. But we do need to clarify this issue here and now and *** it in the butt as this seems to be a problem that can and will be exploited to stack teams in the future.

[TorinPS]

Clarification:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/ccdy6me?context=3

And I honestly expect this level of consolidation to occur the more competitive things get. NUC has been doing it, officially adding people to the outfit, for quite a while now. They have a formidable list of pilots already in the outfit. The only difference between us and them, is we didn't bother 'making it official' for all of them until shortly before the event. But, as that was not a necessity to meet the spirit of the rule, we only did it to attempt to quell some of the hatred we're so used to getting.

Edit: And in the long term, we'll probably reform under another Outfit (with an established infantry based group) to get everyone under one roof. May not be TGWW, but it'll be the same people. We're just being malleable with the letter of the law, and if it changes that literally everyone needs to be in the outfit, it will be done.

[Rumblepit]

Clarification:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/ccdy6me?context=3

And I honestly expect this level of consolidation to occur the more competitive things get. NUC has been doing it, officially adding people to the outfit, for quite a while now. They have a formidable list of pilots already in the outfit. The only difference between us and them, is we didn't bother 'making it official' for all of them until shortly before the event. But, as that was not a necessity to meet the spirit of the rule, we only did it to attempt to quell some of the hatred we're so used to getting.

The problem is its a honor rule, it cant really be enforced.Says it right on that link.

hon·or·a·ble
ˈänərəbəl/Submit
adjective
1.
bringing or worthy of honor.
synonyms: honest, moral, ethical, principled, righteous, right-minded;
antonyms: crooked, deplorable

Some people will do anything to win.

[snafus]

Clarification:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/ccdy6me?context=3

And I honestly expect this level of consolidation to occur the more competitive things get. NUC has been doing it, officially adding people to the outfit, for quite a while now. They have a formidable list of pilots already in the outfit. The only difference between us and them, is we didn't bother 'making it official' for all of them until shortly before the event. But, as that was not a necessity to meet the spirit of the rule, we only did it to attempt to quell some of the hatred we're so used to getting.

Then it needs to be set in stone that once a player chooses a team they cannot participate in another competitive team or faction. What is the point of having a faction based team if I can swap to any outfit or team I play with regularly?

And that Reddit post seems to push the issue that you should not be using non outfit based members as team members. Though it is written rather oddly and I would like if Torkz could clarify the issue further.

[Rumblepit]

Clarification:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/ccdy6me?context=3

And I honestly expect this level of consolidation to occur the more competitive things get. NUC has been doing it, officially adding people to the outfit, for quite a while now. They have a formidable list of pilots already in the outfit. The only difference between us and them, is we didn't bother 'making it official' for all of them until shortly before the event. But, as that was not a necessity to meet the spirit of the rule, we only did it to attempt to quell some of the hatred we're so used to getting.

The problem is its a honor rule, it cant really be enforced.Says it right on that link.

hon·or·a·ble
ˈänərəbəl/Submit
adjective
1.
bringing or worthy of honor.
synonyms: honest, moral, ethical, principled, righteous, right-minded;
antonyms: crooked, deplorable

Some people will do anything to win, and they just hope we are better than that. Sad thing is , most are not.

Friendly words of advice....You should lead by example.You have a good thing going over there ,and if you keep it up your going to lose it.

[TorinPS]

"This rule was intended to stop outfits from pulling a number of "ringers" from whatever outfit to participate even if they don't normally play together."

We all normally play together. End of story.

[retrogreq]

Co-founder of TGWW here. I just read through most of this, and I want to clear up a few things. The people that are being referred to over and over as "ringers" or whatever (corewin, naterian, arcfault, thundahawk, rudelord) are HARDLY new to TGWW. Most of them stick to a different faction for whatever reason, but they all fly with TGWW any time they play vanu, and we fly with their respective outfits (QRY for NC, or whatever TE's air wing was called for TR...rarely flew over there). arcfault was with/a part of TGWW almost from the start, but he flew on his TR most of the time when we got going, so his VS character just never joined our outfit. Corewin*, Nate*, Thunda, and Rude are all NC characters, and we fly with them as QRY on NC. Thunda's VS character has been in TGWW for some time now, and i think rude's has as well. Corewin has flown with us many times on VS, and his alt has been in our outfit for at least 4 months, maybe longer (I remember inviting him myself after he switched from his NC to his VS to fly with us after getting dalton'd one too many times.)
*used to be TR with TE

Long story short, is we didn't have a perfect "label" to go under, but this group of pilots has been an "outfit" for over 9 months now.

[TorinPS]

Then it needs to be set in stone that once a player chooses a team they cannot participate in another competitive team or faction. What is the point of having a faction based team if I can swap to any outfit or team I play with regularly?

And that Reddit post seems to push the issue that you should not be using non outfit based members as team members. Though it is written rather oddly and I would like if Torkz could clarify the issue further.

If this was actually MLG, where something was on the line, more akin with other high level eSports, then yes, I'd completely agree.

But for RCCC and this developing environment, I'll just quote Phrygen of BWC, who stated it quite well:

"I think its important for everyone to remember these are just scrim games, and whats most important is testing how competitive or structured PS2 battles will play out. Anyone who has done a scrim on test server knows how awkward it can be at times.

Being overly judgmental of outfits and players is not healthy for the overall goal of competitive PS2, but again if we consider the long run, there are very significant issues that will need to be addressed and resolved in order for PS2 MLG to be viable, let alone successful."

Personally, if I played against you on 5 different teams, I wouldn't have any issue with that. I know my personal situation, I routinely play every faction. I would not consider it out of the realm of possibility that I would play in a scrim match for a different faction, with a different outfit and the same people. Very few of the top tier pilots on Mattherson have any faction loyalty at all. Mostly all of us want to play competitively. We don't know exactly where we would land if we had to pick a single faction or outfit permanently, and until then, we're just sticking together, playing in the outfits we're in.

I don't see why so many people get hung up on the faction loyalty thing. It serves no purpose other than tying you down and preventing you from being flexible and finding the best fit for you. I can guarantee if all the people I always play with did that, a third of us at most would be playing together, if that. Most of us would probably have quit the game if not for this group.

Anyways, I'm ranting.

This will all get further clarified, to a T. Some people will be happy with the ruling, hopefully most, and inevitably some people will be bent out of shape about it. So it goes.

[Rumblepit]

Co-founder of TGWW here. I just read through most of this, and I want to clear up a few things. The people that are being referred to over and over as "ringers" or whatever (corewin, naterian, arcfault, thundahawk, rudelord) are HARDLY new to TGWW. Most of them stick to a different faction for whatever reason, but they all fly with TGWW any time they play vanu, and we fly with their respective outfits (QRY for NC, or whatever TE's air wing was called for TR...rarely flew over there). arcfault was with/a part of TGWW almost from the start, but he flew on his TR most of the time when we got going, so his VS character just never joined our outfit. Corewin*, Nate*, Thunda, and Rude are all NC characters, and we fly with them as QRY on NC. Thunda's VS character has been in TGWW for some time now, and i think rude's has as well. Corewin has flown with us many times on VS, and his alt has been in our outfit for at least 4 months, maybe longer (I remember inviting him myself after he switched from his NC to his VS to fly with us after getting dalton'd one too many times.)
*used to be TR with TE

Long story short, is we didn't have a perfect "label" to go under, but this group of pilots has been an "outfit" for over 9 months now.

Sounds like you guys have some great comradery over there.Pilots on Connery are the same way, but we were told Outift members only and we followed those rules.

I think you guys just set a president for CC. Server vs Server everyone is invited since we have all played together at some point since launch. That is in the spirit of the rule right?

[retrogreq]

Sounds like you guys have some great comradery over there.Pilots on Connery are the same way, but we were told Outift members only and followed those rules.

I think you guys just set a president for CC. Server vs Server everyone is invited since we have all played together at some point since launch.

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. As torin said earlier, competing in organized matches wasn't just a spur of the moment thing for this exact group of pilots...we didn't just grab the best pilots from mattherson this past week and be like "hey, wanna go do some MLG pro shit?" No. We talked about this a long time ago. this EXACT group of guys. JUST because we didn't all join one outfit on one specific faction, you are getting upset/saying its a new precedent...it simply isn't. We didn't have the exact right group of people on the right faction in the correct outfit till whenever torin said they were invited (I haven't actually played in a while, been busy with work), but if you look at QRY's current roster, I'm pretty sure everyone in there is in the stream, and has been for MONTHS. The only exception may be Aarth...I'm not sure if his NC is in QRY.

[Jax Blake]

Like always when it comes to rules and laws and how people interpret them it's never the same and as a result our two outfits interpreted the specific rule in question in two completely different ways. From this point forward MERC will have it's in house counsel go over all rules with the match officials so that the word cheater need not ever be used and in fact as of this post we are asking AGN whether it be Torkz, Hamma, Noxx, or Derringer to come into this very thread and clarify it for everyone to read and to also update the community clash rules so that this issue never need be discussed again.

Please do not quote a reddit post from three days ago as we are both in disagreement as to what that means. We are asking that the officials from AGN come into this thread and set the record straight now as to what it means to be a full time member of an outfit. The pilots that you regularly play with and were brought into TGWW and who did a phenominal job; can they play with ANY other outfit besides TGWW? Whatever the AGN officials come up with stands and this ends here and now and forever.

MERCS would like to thank TXR for inviting us to the match and thank NNG / TGWW for the good fight and of course thank the AGN team for putting all of this together.

[Rumblepit]

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. As torin said earlier, competing in organized matches wasn't just a spur of the moment thing for this exact group of pilots...we didn't just grab the best pilots from mattherson this past week and be like "hey, wanna go do some MLG pro shit?" No. We talked about this a long time ago. this EXACT group of guys. JUST because we didn't all join one outfit on one specific faction, you are getting upset/saying its a new precedent...it simply isn't. We didn't have the exact right group of people on the right faction in the correct outfit till whenever torin said they were invited (I haven't actually played in a while, been busy with work), but if you look at QRY's current roster, I'm pretty sure everyone in there is in the stream, and has been for MONTHS. The only exception may be Aarth...I'm not sure if his NC is in QRY.


Ahhhh I understand, because you guys all over the place ,unorganized and playing different factions in different outfits its ok.

Hey spirit of the rule right?

[TorinPS]

I only quoted it because it has been the only feedback on the subject from a member of the RCCC staff. I've got no qualms with them getting knee deep into this little fiasco and setting the record straight, once and for all.

This issue needed to be ironed out sooner or later, as it is only a matter of time that it happens again. (we were already in talks with an NC infantry outfit on pairing up with them on our NC alts, to do another round of RCCC)

RCCC is great. I love this shit. I want as much of it as I can. If they want to deem that I'm only allowed to play for one outfit, fine. As I read it, they were much more generic about the requirement. I welcome some clarification, so I can at least know who I should be doing further recruitment for and training with.

Edit: Hopefully I've clarified all I need to. I look forward to hearing more on this from the RC staff, so I don't ever have to listen to butthurt whiners like Rumblepit again. Seriously dude, it's ok. Going to step away from this thread, this forum warrior-ing across 3 websites is getting exhausting.

[retrogreq]

I only quoted it because it has been the only feedback on the subject from a member of the RCCC staff. I've got no qualms with them getting knee deep into this little fiasco and setting the record straight, once and for all.

This issue needed to be ironed out sooner or later, as it is only a matter of time that it happens again. (we were already in talks with an NC infantry outfit on pairing up with them on our NC alts, to do another round of RCCC)

RCCC is great. I love this shit. I want as much of it as I can. If they want to deem that I'm only allowed to play for one outfit, fine. As I read it, they were much more generic about the requirement. I welcome some clarification, so I can at least know who I should be doing further recruitment for and training with.


This, and what Jax said. I think he hit the nail on the head, because I would see no reason why most of our TGWW guys couldn't work with QRY if they did one of these. Some clarification is needed, methinks.

[Rumblepit]

This, and what Jax said. I think he hit the nail on the head, because I would see no reason why most of our TGWW guys couldn't work with QRY if they did one of these. Some clarification is needed, methinks.

Outfit members only .... Im still unclear on how this can be misunderstood :doh:
I have heard it all in this thread now.

What players from other outfits and factions????
They been in our outfit for along time!!!
We only added them 24 hrs ago to avoid drama!!!
We are in different outfits but we have been playing with them for 9 months!!!!
We misunderstood the rules!!!

Did I forget any?

Read the rules again, and think about what the honor system is.

As for RCCC ...Its easy to make rules,but upholding them is the hard part.If you plan to continue these events you need to be able to manage them. As of now the rules mean nothing to these people. like they said its not mlg ,and this kind of thing will happen over and over again until it is addressed.

[TorinPS]

Outfit members only .... Im still unclear on how this can be misunderstood :doh:

Well, you were the one getting bent out of shape that 4 of the people who played were added in the past 72 hours. So if it was really that straight-forward, why did you bring it up in the first place?

I have heard it all in this thread now.

What players from other outfits and factions????
They been in our outfit for along time!!!
We only added them 24 hrs ago to avoid drama!!!
We have been playing with them for 9 months!!!!
We misunderstood the rules!!!

Did I for get any?

Read that again, and think about what the honor system is.

Ugh, just not even worth it anymore. Brush up on your reading comprehension son, you're driving the thinking men a little crazy with your drivel.

[Selentic]

Here is the big problem I see with all this TorinPS. I regularly fly with almost all of the aces on Connery during cross faction play. I have even had alts in some of my favorite enemy outfits to fly with them. To be honest I have played with almost all of those guys for the past year of PS2.

The difference here is that these are air exclusive outfits, that are made up of almost the exact same people across each faction, and is very likely to be our MLG lineup of air players. This is not Merc compared to Future Crew or NUC, don't try and treat it as such.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/selentic/Emotes/downsdance.gif

I'm having a lot of trouble deciding whether your three five page tangent here is more embarrassing or not than Jax's little meltdown in the TIW vs FCRW match. Either way, I'm really impressed at how salty you are over a non issue in a scrim that has no bearing on anything, please continue.

[Shortwave]

Ladies and Gentlemen, a break in your internet argument here please.

NON PAID SPOKESMAN ALERT: I used to be in Mercs but had to take a break from the game when I was attacked by a horse on my farm and lost the use of my right hand. Just saying in the mindset of transparency, they booted me about a month or so ago I think for non activity.



BACK TO THE POST

I see this thread spiraling out of control, kind of like the plot line of The Little Mermaid 2


You had a princess and a prince, trying to protect their daughter from the second cousin twice removed of the villain from the first movie. Everyone is all up in each others face, you have a retarded seagull and McFish sandwich teaming up with an angry crab to do side quests, plenty of musical numbers and a thrilling conclusion brought to a conclusion in classic Disney straight to movie style in where the daughter is finally allowed to make her own decision about her future and she decides to become a mermaid , like her mother before her.

I see two sides of an argument here yelling screaming etc about a game.

Two sides, the game


Folks, the game here, is the daughter from the Little Mermaid. We all want the best for our daughter (IE the game hence we support a clearly fashion challenged Smedly at SOE Live) but instead of helping the game progress, IE have FUN at the game, we are here arguing back and forth.

You all take a step back from the edge of the ocean here and start enjoying this game again.

And now back to your regularly scheduled troll v troll argument.

[Rumblepit]

Ladies and Gentlemen, a break in your internet argument here please.

NON PAID SPOKESMAN ALERT: I used to be in Mercs but had to take a break from the game when I was attacked by a horse on my farm and lost the use of my right hand. Just saying in the mindset of transparency, they booted me about a month or so ago I think for non activity.



BACK TO THE POST

I see this thread spiraling out of control, kind of like the plot line of The Little Mermaid 2


You had a princess and a prince, trying to protect their daughter from the second cousin twice removed of the villain from the first movie. Everyone is all up in each others face, you have a retarded seagull and McFish sandwich teaming up with an angry crab to do side quests, plenty of musical numbers and a thrilling conclusion brought to a conclusion in classic Disney straight to movie style in where the daughter is finally allowed to make her own decision about her future and she decides to become a mermaid , like her mother before her.

I see two sides of an argument here yelling screaming etc about a game.

Two sides, the game


Folks, the game here, is the daughter from the Little Mermaid. We all want the best for our daughter (IE the game hence we support a clearly fashion challenged Smedly at SOE Live) but instead of helping the game progress, IE have FUN at the game, we are here arguing back and forth.

You all take a step back from the edge of the ocean here and start enjoying this game again.

And now back to your regularly scheduled troll v troll argument.

:rofl:lmao your to f ing funny man.....

[ArcFault]

I'm not even sure where to begin on this considering a huge swath of TGWW pilots are on the QRY Roster.

If there's any issue that is unclear, it is the fault of the rules, not the outfits who followed them in good faith. Torin sought clarification of a vague rule and received an official clarification from RC_Torkz. (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/ccdy6me?context=3) With the clarification from the ruling body, which supersedes arbitrary interpretations of the original rule and vague handwaving at eHonor by Mr Rumblepit, TGWW rightfully and properly moved forward.

As one of the Reddit r/planetside moderators, my VS alt, which I haven't used in months is, of course, in the TEST outfit. When I did sign into my VS alt, I was flying around in a Scythe with the members of TGWW (We can get notarized statements if necessary). Is it not understandable why I would not want to formally leave TEST even though I didn't regularly play with them? However, for the sake of formality when Dreadnaut (who has been a proud member of QRY for a long time now) asked that I formally join TGWW before the event to minimize any confusion, I did so. There is absolutely nothing improper about that and falls within the framework of the rules and the subsequent clarification.

TGWW/NNG acted in good faith and any perceived impropriety is just that, perceived. If there is any issue that is/was unclear then the Rules should be adjusted going forward to be more concise.


Mr Rolfski is essentially arguing for a lower skill cap in a competitive(!) mode, in a game with an already, by design, low individual skill cap - the nonsensicality of which is truly mind blowing.


Regarding Air being the OP Solo Deciding Factor on Nexus with 48v48+ - I wish that a particular outfit that geared themselves out specifically to counter vehicles still played and was interested in these MLG/Competitive events to dismiss this notion.


MLG Highlight Reel lol (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqsmlXa16hU&feature=player_detailpage#t=16)

[Dreadnaut]

Jaamaw came to me and asked, "We're doing the Community Clash and it's going to be 48 VS 48 on the Nexus and I'd like your air crew to join us. I have 36 and need a full squad of your guys . This will be a fun scrim". Jaamaw and I have been working together for months on Mattherson in an unofficial capacity (usually via in game command chat/voice) and even shared some good laughs at SOE Live. He actually got accused of hacking twice while gunning for me on SOE's PC's.

I was excited to be involved because as the leader of a small air cav outfit I knew we couldn't compete with such small numbers on our own only from the air. I never once read any rules about the event until I was linked them during a TS chat with the leaders of all four outfits and Torkz. I just knew Jaamaw wanted me and my guys to support NNG. We support NNG regularly on Mattherson and it's a blast. I've never even watched one of the CC events but had heard good things Deringer, Torkz, and others were doing.

The instant I was asked I knew the exact crew of guys I wanted to bring. I knew the Liberator crews down to their exact load outs and exactly who my scythe pilots would be and who would be doing the talking. No one would using A2A missiles which I asked to be included in the rules but we could not all agree on that. C'est la vie. Any pilot worth his salt knows A2A missiles are zero skill and lame.

Most of my outfit plays multiple factions. Some are dedicated VS like Aarth and some play NC/TR also. In fact, a lot of them played TR before they went to NC. One reason we play multiple factions is to play AGAINST each other. You don't get better by playing scrubs so when we fight against our own guys we're flying against some of the best. I'm scared of my own guys in the air and playing against them makes me better.

I was told late that we all had to be in the same outfit and most were but a few weren't so we had to add them late. Again I never read the rules and figured I would be told anything I needed to know in our meeting on TS. This 'rule' was not brought up in the TS meeting.

We've been discussing our 'team' a lot since the MLG talk has ramped up and many of us have been flying together since launch on multiple factions. When VS is way over pop we go play TR/NC, and the other way around.

As far as the scrim goes, most of TGWW hadn't even seen the nexus till the night of the match yet MERC/TxR had already scrim'd on that map. To say we were at a disadvantage is an understatement.

This was a scrim, not an MLG match, and to see this whining is absolutely ridiculous. Someone could have come to me directly as the leader of TGWW but instead you take up your issue on a forum which is childish.

It is my fault and no one else's for not reading the rule set ahead of time. We showed up completely blind on a map most had never seen to fight a fun scrim. Had I known about the 'outfit only' rule I would have invited the ones without outfit tags right away. There are several guys in TGWW that aren't MLG ready and are still working on their flying skills. The guys you saw are my crew and that's the simple fact. If we fight in a scrim again you're going to see the same guys except this time we'll actually be prepared. If you think that scrim was dominated by my air crew, wait till it happens again and we're actually prepared.

We didn't have a single practice, we hadn't seen the map, we've never once had a scrim anywhere, at any time, and our entire strategy was in one tiny graphic that I made to show where people should stand in the warpgate. We didn't even know the names of the bases so we numbered them the same as your keypad. You'd hear guys on TS yelling, "GO TO BASE 7!!"

Wanna know our secret tactic? "Kill SNAFU/NAPOOPAN/MAGNIFISCENT first, don't over commit, listen to Nate, don't talk too much." Imagine how different it would be if we actually had time to practice...or better yet, had actually seen the map.

I sincerely apologize personally to MERC/TxR for not having my 'crew' all with outfit tags before I was even asked to be involved in the event. Had I known ahead of time there would be no confusion. I had a couple guys that didn't even have the test server installed till the day of the event. My gunner had zero resources so if we died he couldn't pull us another Liberator and didn't have any consumables. 2 of my guys had uninstalled PS2 until such time as we needed them for an event. They're so sick of Strikers and bad frames they'd rather play other games until the ESF update and optimization pass.

So let's end the whining now. The team you saw was my Competitive TGWW Air Crew and that's a fact.


Look forward to doing it again and showing people what we're really capable of.


* Please excuse any typo's as I did this from my mobile device *

[Jax Blake]

Thank you for clarifying the point from the TGWW point of view. If any of this came off as an excuse as to why we didn’t win the community clash then the message has been lost in translation since the overwhelming answer from the people in my outfit is that we lost the air battle and thus lost the match. Three or four people don’t win or lose an air battle when that many planes and random fire is involved no matter the weapon systems used.

The issue that I and a few others would like to hear directly from the Community Clash organizers about now pertains to what does a full time outfit member mean? Is it someone who regularly plays IN your outfit or someone who regularly plays WITH your outfit? The answer to that question can then brought up on the .CC forums which is where is where competitive questions at whatever level (MLG/Scrim/Etc.,) are better suited for discussion.

[retrogreq]

Outfit members only .... Im still unclear on how this can be misunderstood :doh:
I have heard it all in this thread now.

What players from other outfits and factions????
They been in our outfit for along time!!!
We only added them 24 hrs ago to avoid drama!!!
We are in different outfits but we have been playing with them for 9 months!!!!
We misunderstood the rules!!!

Did I forget any?

Read the rules again, and think about what the honor system is.

As for RCCC ...Its easy to make rules,but upholding them is the hard part.If you plan to continue these events you need to be able to manage them. As of now the rules mean nothing to these people. like they said its not mlg ,and this kind of thing will happen over and over again until it is addressed.

Torin is right, you aren't even worth it any more.


Also, if this were MLG, this would be a non-issue. Rosters are generally locked 24 hours before a match, and they don't give a shit who you add/remove, or what clan or outfit they are in, as long as they wear the proper tags when the match starts, and they were added to the roster at least 24 hours prior. (source, 3 years of competition with TWL, Cevo, and MLG.)

[Violin]

MLG Highlight Reel lol (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqsmlXa16hU&feature=player_detailpage#t=16)


Anyone that can 1v1 debris and come out on top is MLG ready.

[Hamma]

The recording will be up a bit later today.

We strive to do our best with the rules for Community Clash but sadly, it remains a work in progress and things tend to fluctuate. Add to that the often unexpected conditions that occur on the test server.

As far as rosters and players, as the organizers there is not a ton we can do about this sort of thing. It's a community event, meant to be fun and we have no real need or reason to verify players beyond what their in game characters names are. We will have a little more control over it with a Private Server but in the end we have to rely on the outfits to police themselves and play honorably.

That being said, I thought it was a great matchup and TGWW has proven their chops in the air.

In the meantime let's try and keep things civil and remember this is for fun, there's no cashola involved or rewards for the winners.

[Sledgecrushr]

It would seem that the results of this community clash are tainted. Maybe there should be a rematch.

[GraniteRok]

IMO, the air lock down by the VS made the match pretty boring in several places. Not sure exactly why the TR were unable to effectively counter; maybe resource limitation, maybe they were being taken out out of camera view. Many ground attempts by the TR were quickly eliminated by VS air. Boots on the ground and all out infantry fights make a better show. Again, my opinion and just a spectator.

[retrogreq]

It would seem that the results of this community clash are tainted. Maybe there should be a rematch.

While we don't think anything is tainted, TGWWs would be more than happy to oblige.

[retrogreq]

IMO, the air lock down by the VS made the match pretty boring in several places. Not sure exactly why the TR were unable to effectively counter; maybe resource limitation, maybe they were being taken out out of camera view. Many ground attempts by the TR were quickly eliminated by VS air. Boots on the ground and all out infantry fights make a better show. Again, my opinion and just a spectator.

No offense, but that was the fault of the camera crew. One of them admitted in the stream he didn't have a clue about air, and didn't know how to film it properly...one of the other broadcasters jokingly said to follow the explosions. Simple solution would be to have a new cameraman that knows how the air game works, and can effectively film that aspect of it. I assure you, it is VERY entertaining. (check youtube for any of our TGWW vids, or any NUC, QRY, Ironfist, ETC vids).

[kidriot]

I'm gonna give my thoughts on the issue (for whatever they're worth). Bear in mind I have no control over the rules of Community Clash. I only provide articles and reviews on the subject.

To expect one person - in this case Torkz - to properly scout out outfits that are going to participate in the CC, every week, to ensure outfits are fielding primary members is absurd. Community Clash runs on a minimum of resources. One person writes the rules and one person enforces them during a match. Stack community stuff (that's done for free and willingly!), family, work and even play time, not to mention other responsibilities on top of outfit scouting is expecting a lot from 1-2 people. It requires a team of people to stay on top of this and I don't even think MLG will be fielding that team to ensure the stability of the matches.

The primary issue I'm seeing with the people TGWW fielded is they weren't viewed as primary characters in the outfit. They're a group of friends who bounce factions and outfits because they all play similar styles instead of being one outfit who focuses on one faction. You can't blame them if they want to fight people of their caliber in the air for creating such a situation on Mattherson, but I can see where problems might arise. The only plausible way this could or could not be acceptable is if there was an official ruling by MLG (governing body) and SOE (designer). This won't happen for a very long time.

Community Clash is a community run effort by very few people to ensure a quality, stable and entertaining platform for outfits to run competitive matches. Competitive in this sense of the word simply means that - competition. There are no rewards for winning a Community Clash. You could even say that the matches aren't 100% fair because spawn beacons and squad deploy aren't working and I'd agree with you, but we're not the makers of the game only players. So what options do we have? Should we postpone all further Comm Clash matches until this gets worked out? No, because we could be waiting a long time and the arguments presented in this thread are proof that people want to compete. People want to fight outfit vs outfit, not because there's future glory or money or prizes to be won, but because we're competitive players by nature and we like the thrill of the challenge.

If I were in TGWW's shoes I'd have done the same thing. Bring my 12 best friends that not only play with us on a consistent basis, but play against us when we want to feel challenged in the air. They could have simply invited the "ringers" to the outfit a few days before and it would qualify those people as outfit members, even if they were a low BR. Can every outfit do this? Yes. Should every outfit do this? No. The only reason it worked in TGWW's favor is because they've all worked together before. It wasn't a spur of the moment decision. TGWW has stated they knew exactly who to bring to the match which gives the impression that some experience and preparation went into the CC. If it had been cross server people joining, say for example, FC decides to fight for NNG then I'd have to call those players ringers in the true sense.

Some outfits run a strict policy regarding membership. Your character in the outfit must be your primary character. We ran Recursion like that when we started to get more recruits and NUC runs like that. Do Recursion and NUC have players in other factions? Yes, but they're not their primaries. Some outfits are run like communities where it's acceptable to have members in various outfits and the outfit runs like a hangout - where people can play there when they wish. TGWW seems to run like that and there's nothing wrong with it. You can't expect all outfits to have the same structure. If you all agree that all outfits shouldn't be forced to run the same way then you'd have to agree that what TGWW wasn't wrong.

What prevents outfits from simply getting the best players on the server to fight under one banner for a CC? Simple: teamwork and cohesion aren't guaranteed simply because you have the top killers on a server. In TGWW's case of bringing in friends it worked, because they have the experience of playing together, in other cases it would be an absolute disaster.

The last CC wasn't tainted at all. Mistakes were made on both sides and TGWW capitalized on the TR outfits not protecting their most precious resource in The Nexus: their Sunderers. How you go about protecting the Sunderers and ensuring you have forward spawns is up to the individual outfits. The TR got outplayed in the air and paid for it dearly. It was a close game till the later part of the second half when VS began to run away with it. It was due to the freedom allowed to the Liberators because TR wasn't able to fight them in the sky. If you argue those points then you're arguing something completely different than the primary issue. The primary issue being discussed is, "What makes an outfit an outfit?"

The answers for that question vary and in varying allow for more expectations and potential for dynamic play on both live servers and especially in The Nexus where there's no outside influence.

People get testy when they lose. They sometimes get bitter and that's ok, but it shouldn't devolve into the shit flinging I've read in these forums.

Let me ask you guys this, if TR had won do you think the arguments posted in this thread would even exist? Go back to the drawing board, learn what you can from this match and move forward. That's what winners do every time they lose.

[TorinPS]

Let me ask you guys this, if TR had won do you think the arguments posted in this thread would even exist? Go back to the drawing board, learn what you can from this match and move forward. That's what winners do every time they lose.

Nope. In fact I think I can speak for most of us (TGWW) when I say that I'm looking forward to the outfit that can beat us handily in the air. I know NUC has a lot of good Liberators (pilots and gunners) and some good ESF pilots. I am very interested to see how we will stack up in a 48v48.

We've been longing for some serious competition for a while now. We end up playing cross-faction against each other simply for a challenge, because when we roll together in public PS2, it's just a joke. I'm not trying to brag, but we throw too much skill and experience, and the average players just don't deal with it. 'Air zerg' is what it feels like, and half of us get bored, log out of VS, and log onto TR or NC to be competition.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is here. We fielded the guys we've been expecting to field for months now. We won a scrimmage. There will be many others. We didn't go around bragging about anything, flaunt anything. A very select few in MERC tried to rub our win in the mud, because they are sore losers. I don't blame all of MERC. I can understand legitimately the complaints. I can comprehend how it might appear sketchy. But to us, we just played with the guys we have played with for a great many months. Everything was on the up and up. I was looking forward to some interesting discourse/analysis on the topic, then this shit.

C'est la vie and all, I just hope we, as a community, can get past this petty sore loser bickering shit. We'll gladly go up against any outfit in Planetside 2, hopefully next time people won't be bitching when we field the same 15 guys.

[Hamma]

Recording is live.

PlanetSide 2 Community Clash TXR and MERC vs NNG and TGWW - YouTube

[EVILPIG]

Stacking is stacking. It doesn't matter if outfits are bringing in players because they play together often. If it's to become the norm to bring in whoever you need, then these matches should not be advertised as "X outfit vs Y outfit" any longer, as they are not true representations of such.

[Sardus]

I look at the air thing from a different perspective.

Every enemy player in the air is one less player on the ground. You have the numbers advantage when it comes to holding indoor points. Even if they have the hard spawn in a tower or something, and you don't.

Getting there is the trick. If you're able to get to the target and bring your A game of medics and engineers, you don't need that Sundy spawn. You just hold the point with the higher infantry/max leverage.

Doesn't always work of course. But that's what I often do. It forces them to either come out of the air vehicles (because even if you kill them they will just pull another), or lose the ground game.

[retrogreq]

Stacking is stacking. It doesn't matter if outfits are bringing in players because they play together often. If it's to become the norm to bring in whoever you need, then these matches should not be advertised as "X outfit vs Y outfit" any longer, as they are not true representations of such.

That boils down to what you define as an "outfit". Semantics.

The MLG precedent is pretty obvious if you read the rule-set on the MLG website. Some of the time-frames are different in TWL or cevo (24 hours prior to the match vs 6 hours), but all the rules for roster changes are the same. I think most of these complaints are coming from people unfamiliar with how competition, teams, ladders, and things like that actually work. If/when the actual ladder starts, and it isn't just scrims, QRY, Notorious, and TGWW would pick one of these tags to represent, and all fight together. You won't be seeing both/all in the same ladder (unless teams get narrowed down to under 4-8 per side, then we would likely fight under different tags to keep things interesting.)

[EVILPIG]

That boils down to what you define as an "outfit". Semantics.

The MLG precedent is pretty obvious if you read the rule-set on the MLG website. Some of the time-frames are different in TWL or cevo (24 hours prior to the match vs 6 hours), but all the rules for roster changes are the same. I think most of these complaints are coming from people unfamiliar with how competition, teams, ladders, and things like that actually work. If/when the actual ladder starts, and it isn't just scrims, QRY, Notorious, and TGWW would pick one of these tags to represent, and all fight together. You won't be seeing both/all in the same ladder (unless teams get narrowed down to under 4-8 per side, then we would likely fight under different tags to keep things interesting.)

First of all, this isn't MLG. Second, it doesn't matter what I define an "outfit" is, PS2 does that for us.

I'm not knocking anyone here, I just don't believe these matches should be advertised as particular outfits, if the outfits involved are just going to grab the best players they can from others. As in your MLG example, name the team and note which outfits are involved.

[retrogreq]

First of all, this isn't MLG. Second, it doesn't matter what I define an "outfit" is, PS2 does that for us.

I'm not knocking anyone here, I just don't believe these matches should be advertised as particular outfits, if the outfits involved are just going to grab the best players they can from others. As in your MLG example, name the team and note which outfits are involved.

This is a scrim to test how this map would behave in an MLG ladder, is it not?


You need to re-read the thread, we didn't just grab the best players we could find from other outfits. You simply sound like you don't know what is going on.

[Sledgecrushr]

This is a scrim to test how this map would behave in an MLG ladder, is it not?


You need to re-read the thread, we didn't just grab the best players we could find from other outfits. You simply sound like you don't know what is going on.

This is an outfit vs outfit competition. The problem is you brought people into your outfit the last minute as ringers to be more competitive. I bet you guys like to pad your stats by shooting through spawn room shields too.

[EVILPIG]

This is a scrim to test how this map would behave in an MLG ladder, is it not?


You need to re-read the thread, we didn't just grab the best players we could find from other outfits. You simply sound like you don't know what is going on.

The mistake is on your end. I am not talking about you or any particular outfit. I have stated my opinion on stacking teams.

[retrogreq]

This is an outfit vs outfit competition. The problem is you brought people into your outfit the last minute as ringers to be more competitive. I bet you guys like to pad your stats by shooting through spawn room shields too.

The mistake is on your end. I am not talking about you or any particular outfit. I have stated my opinion on stacking teams.

From comments like the one above, I'm sure you can see how I would be defensive. Sorry Pig.

[EVILPIG]

From comments like the one above, I'm sure you can see how I would be defensive. Sorry Pig.

It's cool *brohug*

[Haemoglobin]

Edit: Edited to let my outfit leaders comment in an official capacity

[Dreadnaut]

I bet you guys like to pad your stats by shooting through spawn room shields too.
This is the kind of petty bullshit that doesn't need to exist. You don't know shit about my outfit and don't pretend to think you do.

My CAS30 penetrates spawn shields like a boss as well as my Shredder gunner, right???

Why does 666th keep an asshole like you around? Doesn't sound like something they would tolerate.

[Lepalose]

I look at the air thing from a different perspective.

Every enemy player in the air is one less player on the ground. You have the numbers advantage when it comes to holding indoor points. Even if they have the hard spawn in a tower or something, and you don't.

Getting there is the trick. If you're able to get to the target and bring your A game of medics and engineers, you don't need that Sundy spawn. You just hold the point with the higher infantry/max leverage.

Doesn't always work of course. But that's what I often do. It forces them to either come out of the air vehicles (because even if you kill them they will just pull another), or lose the ground game.

Your third paragraph was the issue we had. After the air was under VS control every push we did, even to defend bases, we had to go back to warpgate and pull resources to get back into the fight. Not only for Sunderers & Galaxies (which both would be hit or destroyed before moving out past the first line of bases) but also for the AA resources to deter their air.

Definitely a huge drain on resources and time to do this considering the current form of the Nexus' spawn mechanics, as well as having no spawn beacons or ability to squad deploy.

Getting an infantry force set up anywhere becomes a matter of attrition from air attacks, as there is not any safe locations for sunderers, or, broadly, from spawn room to capture points when defending.

On Live, that is something we do quite often too Sardus, but on Nexus it plays out very differently.

[EVILPIG]

Edit: Deleted due to request


Just to play Devil's Advocate, you said that the rules set is vague and I don't see anything vague about this:

Player Makeup:

1) All members must be a full time member of the outfit they are representing for the event.


My opinions here are not comment on anything that occurred during any particular match, but stacking an outfit with players who are not usually members of said outfit is pretty lame and the reason I don't think these matches should be labelled as "outfit vs outfit" if it continues. Just provide an honest roster of who's playing and call it such.

Some have said that none of it matters, it's just for fun, blah blah blah, but it does matter. There is a winner and a loser and that information is being tweeted and posted by SOE. If it's not an honest representation of said outfit, it should not be presented as such. I think it's fairly obvious that it all matters if outfits feel a need to stack in the first place.

[Dreadnaut]

Definitely a huge drain on resources and time to do this considering the current form of the Nexus' spawn mechanics, as well as having no spawn beacons or ability to squad deploy.

Getting an infantry force set up anywhere becomes a matter of attrition from air attacks, as there is not any safe locations for sunderers, or, broadly, from spawn room to capture points when defending.

On Live, that is something we do quite often too Sardus, but on Nexus it plays out very differently.
I agree with you 100%, yet we all had the same issues to deal with. No one had the use of squad deploy or beacons and to hear people complain about not having that worked both ways. I wish squad deploy and beacons had been working but once we were told beacons would not work, we made a game plan based off of that information (Liberators certing Ejection seat, etc). When we were told 60 minutes prior to the match that beacons would in fact work, I voted to not use them based on our new plan that we put in place. To revert to an old plan with less than an hours notice wasn't something I was at all interested in doing.

We came up with a plan and it worked based on the current rule set and the map. Our plan just worked out better than your plan, that's all. I don't think any less of MERC/TxR for losing a silly scrim, we just happen to have won that night.

Elaborate plans will always fail and the K.I.S.S. principle will always be the best option. That was our super secret plan, "Keep It Simple Stupid". As I stated before, it was literally, "Kill SNAFU first, Kill NAPOOPAN second, kill MAGNIFISCENT third, then focus fire everyone else. Be very very aggressive at the start. Be smart, listen to Nate, otherwise don't speak. Listen for the Sunderer strike calls...spawn points win matches, DO NOT let the enemy spawn, force resource drain, whatever it takes, DO NOT let a Sunderer live."

I don't believe that having beacons or squad deploy would have had any different effect on the outcome of the match, but that's just coming from the confidence level in my guys.

What we know after this match:
Resources need to be replenished at 1/2 time. Absolutely no reason to punish a team in round 2 for having a bad round 1.
All resource gain should be MUCH higher so people aren't stranded so early on

[Dreadnaut]

Stacking is stacking. It doesn't matter if outfits are bringing in players because they play together often. If it's to become the norm to bring in whoever you need, then these matches should not be advertised as "X outfit vs Y outfit" any longer, as they are not true representations of such.
Except we didn't stack our team.

I'm a member of TGWW on VS on Mattherson
I'm a member of QRY on NC on Mattherson
I'm a member of TGRW on TR on Mattherson

This game wouldn't be any fun for me if I was stuck playing 1 faction. I'd have quit a LONG time ago. I just prefer to play VS because the majority of my friends when I started the game went to VS. Now I couldn't tell you where the majority of my friends play, because it's everywhere, on all factions, on multiple servers.

I also play 3 other characters on different servers (Connery/Waterson) with names I don't share so I can play without people hunting me specifically because that happens enough as it is right now. Some of you may not even know it's me, in your outfits, playing right along side you and always typing because 'my mic is broken...'. There are times when I just want to play, and not be bothered.

The guys that play with us do the same thing, they play multiple factions, and when they play VS, they play with us. This is our team.

What MERC/TxR saw was maybe 80% of the guys we've got slated for our competitive team, and they're very solid. We haven't yet finalized our competitive roster but it's only going to get better with several more very skilled players who want to compete but don't have a team to compete with. The same 12-16 pilots can't always be available for every single match so we need the right numbers so that every time we're called upon we're read.

I don't care what faction my teammates have their highest BR character on, if they have the skill and want to compete with us, it doesn't matter. We have some low level guys that are awesome that we have to pull aircraft for on the regular while they level up, but they are no less a member than I am with 1000 hours on my VS toon. The guys that play with us are only competing on VS at this time. To my knowledge there isn't anyone on our roster that's on another competitive team playing matches like the Community Clash. If there are, it's news to me.

[Sledgecrushr]

This is the kind of petty bullshit that doesn't need to exist. You don't know shit about my outfit and don't pretend to think you do.

My CAS30 penetrates spawn shields like a boss as well as my Shredder gunner, right???

Why does 666th keep an asshole like you around? Doesn't sound like something they would tolerate.

Dude you dont have to get so defensive. I just figured since your team had pulled guys from other outfits and factions to play in this single outfit competition that you were all dirty cheating bastards. Obviously this isnt the case. For you an "outfit" is more of a general idea. And this "outfit" can span many outfits. I understand your logic. You werent cheating, you were just using the resources of this greater outfit that you say you have.

[TorinPS]

Stacking is stacking. It doesn't matter if outfits are bringing in players because they play together often. If it's to become the norm to bring in whoever you need, then these matches should not be advertised as "X outfit vs Y outfit" any longer, as they are not true representations of such.
There is 'Stacking' and then there is 'STACKING'.

Every competitive team I know of, 'Stacks' to the greatest extent possible. 'Stacking' can be loosely defined as recruiting the best people possible to create the strongest team possible. In professional sports, this is done via a draft. Every team aims to create the most potent roster possible, stacked with the most talent possible. In Planetside, this is mostly assumed that higher level competitive teams have recruited, if not actively (hey you are good will you join my outfit?), at least passively. (people wanting to join because they are good and you are good, etc.) TGWW had a mix of both over the many months we've been playing as an outfit. There were a handful of people that always played with us, on VS or NC or TR, and were simply not formally added to the outfit. As talks of competitive gameplay came about, we all basically committed to being on the same team. That team turned out to be TGWW.

Then there is 'STACKING', which is the act of creating the most powerful team possible, not over time, not through functional recruiting efforts, but some essentially 'back-room' or 'under-handed' "hey, come join our outfit for a day so you can be a ringer for us". This usually involves knowing all the best people and being 'in good enough' with them that they would be willing to 'go undercover' and join your team in an effort to create an overpowered team for no other purpose than having an overpowered team. This is the type of deceitful roster building that the RCCC rule was aiming to eliminate. This is absolutely not what TGWW has been doing, at all.

NUC has been 'Stacking' for quite some time. They recruit a lot of the best people on Waterson, TR, NC or VS, get them to join NUC as a permanent member. They've got a lot of great players. When NUC played in the RCCC, nobody bitched and moaned about them having recruited a bunch of good people.

We only caught this drama because:

1) Some dudes in MERC and/or TXR were butthurt about a scrim loss, and it's easier to blame someone else than acknowledge reality. To be fair to like 99% of them, this was definitely an exception.
2) We only technically added people to the TGWW outfit at the last minute, in an attempt to make it within what we perceived as some people's inevitably interpretation of the rule. We've all played together for a long time, and have been a competitive group for many many months. We just only recently formalized it by making sure everyone was technically an outfit member.

If you think part 2 is 'STACKING', then I'm sorry you can't come to terms with reality.

[EVILPIG]

Giving that I have only stated my general opinion on the issue of stacking and I have not directed anything at any particular outfit, I fail to see why some here continue to be defensive and take my comments as directed at them. The rules are also very clear and some of these attempts to justify what may or may not be legitimate are, while entertaining, sad.

As I said, if outfits are going to just bring in whoever they feel they need to stack their team for a match, I don't think the matches should be presented as just those outfits.

Additionally, I will add a disclaimer that this is not directed towards any particular outfit, but is my opinion on the matter. I require no defensive replies and welcome any open debate on the issue. I have seen nothing in this thread that can justify what is basically "barrowing" talent to increase your odds of winning. I do have to ask why outfits cannot just show up and represent themselves in the name of fun?

[TorinPS]

We did just show up and represent ourselves in the name of fun. Nobody was 'borrowed' from another outfit.

You say you are not directing this at anyone, and asking why we are getting defensive. The answer is, because for the past 24 hours, we've had to defend ourselves against claims made that we are cheating, breaking the rules, etc. It has been clarified by RCCC that we were not, or at least the rule was not meant to be binding like that.

We brought our competitive group to the match under the TGWW tag. Vast majority of people had it, the few that had no outfit, but played with us, we gave them the tag as a formality. Some people saw this as 'STACKING', we see it as playing with people that 'should' have been in the outfit all along.

I personally agree that 'STACKING' is bad. I don't see any issue with 'Stacking' aka Recruiting. If you want to make a competitive outfit, you recruit or accept in, good people. When you have to play competitively, you pick a good, competitive roster. That's all we did, and we got shit for it.

[EVILPIG]

I personally agree that 'STACKING' is bad. I don't see any issue with 'Stacking' aka Recruiting. If you want to make a competitive outfit, you recruit or accept in, good people. When you have to play competitively, you pick a good, competitive roster.

This is all you needed to post. As I said, I am not speaking of you or anyone else. I am speaking of the issue.

[Dreadnaut]

We brought our competitive group to the match under the TGWW tag. Vast majority of people had it, the few that had no outfit, but played with us, we gave them the tag as a formality. Some people saw this as 'STACKING', we see it as playing with people that 'should' have been in the outfit all along.
Many of them WERE in the outfit, and I booted them out because they were sub BR 60 and I was seeing how high our outfit ranking would go on PSU without the lower level members. You don't recruit the best players by having your outfit appear at bottom of the list because you only run 30ish members. I'd take some skilled BR 30's over many many BR 100's I see that only got that high as a ScatMax or a Zepher whore before the nerf. Battle Rank means NOTHING except in this silly ranking that happens on stats websites.

So, it's all my fault, I'm the selfish asshole that wanted to see my outfit at the top of the leaderboards so I kicked out all the lower level members to trim the outfit down to approx 32-36 members. The same low level guys were STILL flying with us regardless of having or not having the TGWW tag.

It was stupid formality I had to reinvite them for the event, and I'll likely kick them out of the outfit again so our rank goes back up to where it should be. Why do you ask? Because right now rank is ONLY determined by average Experience which is a reflection of Battle Rank.

It's arbitrary, it's dumb, but that's what's going on behind the curtain.

[Phrygen]

We did just show up and represent ourselves in the name of fun. Nobody was 'borrowed' from another outfit.

You say you are not directing this at anyone, and asking why we are getting defensive. The answer is, because for the past 24 hours, we've had to defend ourselves against claims made that we are cheating, breaking the rules, etc. It has been clarified by RCCC that we were not, or at least the rule was not meant to be binding like that.

We brought our competitive group to the match under the TGWW tag. Vast majority of people had it, the few that had no outfit, but played with us, we gave them the tag as a formality. Some people saw this as 'STACKING', we see it as playing with people that 'should' have been in the outfit all along.

I personally agree that 'STACKING' is bad. I don't see any issue with 'Stacking' aka Recruiting. If you want to make a competitive outfit, you recruit or accept in, good people. When you have to play competitively, you pick a good, competitive roster. That's all we did, and we got shit for it.

I think its a shame that TGWW and QRY are getting so much flak for this, but it not to be completely unexpected. Had i not played for a month and saw the names of players in the clash, I would have thought "why are there NC and TR playing with TGWW" even though i know those players have alts. Its a natural reaction, but is being followed by overly negative and accusatory responses directed towards a small group of people.

NUC, FTC, DVS, DA etc have been recruiting top talent from other factions and servers since the game started. Good on them. Mattherson top pilots have been forming a community for the last year. Good on them as well.

The larger issues that should be view from this clash are things like: How imbalanced teams negatively affect the play and spectating experience, the potentially imbalanced power of air in 48v48 match ups, the size of the nexus, resource systems in nexus etc.

The thing that concerns me is that, if you look at mattherson for example, all the best pilots are basically a tight knit group, and eventually they will have to choose a team for MLG in theory. The result of all that talent going to one place, is that i can not think of another team on mattherson currently that could field 48 people and compete in the nexus against FTC,NUC etc, without using these same pilots.

When you look at other E-sports, the competitive scene may in fact be made up of 50-150 players spread out on all the teams in the league, and that is for games with very large player bases. PS2 needs 48 people just to make one team. When all the best players decide to play on the same few teams, the reality is that there may be no one left to play against them. Of course this is all theory currently, but that is my greatest concern. When i view DA's stat site and i see that MLG score, i don't get offend or impressed (as others have described their reactions). I see the basis of a salary cap for teams, though i highly doubt anyone will accept that.

[Selentic]

I'm not sure how much more I can stand to see it be explained that, "that is our mlg lineup, that has been our planned mlg lineup for months, and this match was what finally got everyone together", before I just fucking lose my mind. Are there seriously that many tears over us winning a scrim that has no bearing on anything, because this is just getting sad.

[Deringer]

No offense, but that was the fault of the camera crew. One of them admitted in the stream he didn't have a clue about air, and didn't know how to film it properly...one of the other broadcasters jokingly said to follow the explosions.

We have names dammit!

*Runs off crying to his room*

[TorinPS]

Damnit retrogreq, now you made Deringer sad.

[Phrygen]

I'm not sure how much more I can stand to see it be explained that, "that is our mlg lineup, that has been our planned mlg lineup for months, and this match was what finally got everyone together", before I just fucking lose my mind. Are there seriously that many tears over us winning a scrim that has no bearing on anything, because this is just getting sad.

So before I ask this question, i'm going to say again, for the record, i have no issues with how the RCCC went or with the players that were included. I also don't think that TGWW should be accused of foul play.

That said, here is the question. Does the "mlg lineup, that has been our planned mlg lineup for months" have a name, a roster of character names (rather than player names), or a faction? Generally those are the things that define a team. Just seems to me like some of those decisions have yet to be made for some of the pilots, and while that is completely understandable, it can result in confusion by other community members.

[Karzi]

TL DR after 3 pages of Merc and the other outfit ( see already forgot the name) of whining "MIMIMIMIMI you brought better pilots" i had enough.
wow , you guys really think that mlg gives a damn about factions? You really think that? Not at all. You think that faction should stop of teams forming up? You really think that?
Not at all. I play with the whales and other air player all over mattherson because i am not bound by a faction to choose to play for , i chose to play for who i want to , doesnt matter if they are vs nc or tr .
And dont try to blame your ass beating on the fact that we brought other piltos in . You kids pulled like 20 to 30 mossies with lock ons , forming an giant air zerg which was no fun at all , getting owned by better pilots and you could have brought in anybody you want , wouldnt have made a difference.

You got beaten by the better players and now you try to cry about it. GG , way to be a competive player.
Here is how MLG is gonna be :
Teams will form up under one Name , a Faction BUT it wont be limited to join from other people of other factions. It would be stupid because as well as in proffesinal sports , there is a player "trading /swapping "between teams , doesnt matter what SOE says , MLG has the last word or there just wont be a competive PS2.
Mlg is not about feeling and "honor" MLG is about the best team fighting the best team , and if you dont like it , dont worry my sponsor " Uninstall wizard" will help you there.
Can you now grew some balls and enjoy your tomcats on your "1337" server? K thanks bai


@RCCC , get somebody on the Reachcast for air commentary , and get a thrid observer cam up for that.
You had 1 for the north side one for the south side , but just for air combats , and well you guys dont understand much from air ( no offense).
There was a situation when there was really good fight going on , but the cam was on 1 TR guy ghost capping a base , while planes blew up above them.

But just dont get MattiAce , kid is a bad pilot who only puts his easy wins on youtube , neither me cause i am rated IAMLASK for insane and most likely a serial killer.

[TorinPS]

But just dont get MattiAce , kid is a bad pilot who only puts his easy wins on youtube , neither me cause i am rated IAMLASK for insane and most likely a serial killer.

Agreed, most likely a serial killer.

[Rumblepit]

TL DR after 3 pages of Merc and the other outfit ( see already forgot the name) of whining "MIMIMIMIMI you brought better pilots" i had enough.
wow , you guys really think that mlg gives a damn about factions? You really think that? Not at all. You think that faction should stop of teams forming up? You really think that?
Not at all. I play with the whales and other air player all over mattherson because i am not bound by a faction to choose to play for , i chose to play for who i want to , doesnt matter if they are vs nc or tr .
And dont try to blame your ass beating on the fact that we brought other piltos in . You kids pulled like 20 to 30 mossies with lock ons , forming an giant air zerg which was no fun at all , getting owned by better pilots and you could have brought in anybody you want , wouldnt have made a difference.

You got beaten by the better players and now you try to cry about it. GG , way to be a competive player.
Here is how MLG is gonna be :
Teams will form up under one Name , a Faction BUT it wont be limited to join from other people of other factions. It would be stupid because as well as in proffesinal sports , there is a player "trading /swapping "between teams , doesnt matter what SOE says , MLG has the last word or there just wont be a competive PS2.
Mlg is not about feeling and "honor" MLG is about the best team fighting the best team , and if you dont like it , dont worry my sponsor " Uninstall wizard" will help you there.
Can you now grew some balls and enjoy your tomcats on your "1337" server? K thanks bai


@RCCC , get somebody on the Reachcast for air commentary , and get a thrid observer cam up for that.
You had 1 for the north side one for the south side , but just for air combats , and well you guys dont understand much from air ( no offense).
There was a situation when there was really good fight going on , but the cam was on 1 TR guy ghost capping a base , while planes blew up above them.

But just dont get MattiAce , kid is a bad pilot who only puts his easy wins on youtube , neither me cause i am rated IAMLASK for insane and most likely a serial killer.

I assume you are one of the many players from the Matherson outfits that participated the other night.

Well we were all given the same rules.10 Beacons allowed,no leaving to go to hossin for resources, outfit members only,and so on and so forth.

We bothered to follow these rules, others shat all over them.

There is no denying the devastating damage the matherson outfits brought to the air.I cant really tell from the footage and I was on the ground ,but I know what I heard on coms ,and our guys were having a hell of a time in the air against the matherson server.

I knew going in who ever won the air won the match.Its just how it is on nexus atm. Thats why the devs were talking about a revamp of the map, adding shields domes to the bases, more cover,even the removal of air all together on the battle islands .Needless to say I was there hoping of seeing a good infantry fight,and I found myself bored most of the time because everyone was in the air.What it comes down to is I wasted my time playing against a server there cares nothing for rules and has no honor.

As for better pilots??? I dont even know what a good one looks like. I spend more time in a drop pod than I do a mossy.lol.

Like I said we were all given rules to follow.

If they wish to continue events like this they need to stand by the rules they make ,and enforce them. Otherwise I dont see a long list of outfits waiting to get on CC.

Like Evilpig said, might as well change the name to Server Clash, anything goes.

[retrogreq]

,no leaving to go to hossin for resources


I have heard this accusation 3 times now. This is such bullshit. WE DIDN'T GO GET MORE RESOURCES, WE MANAGED THEM BETTER THAN YOU.

At the start of each round, the ground guys pulled ALL of our air a vehicle, then even MORE ground guys pulled BACKUPS of those vehicles, and parked them in assigned spots in the WG. Our pilots didn't even use ANY of their resources till they died for a 3rd time in each round.

There, the secret is out of the bag. We are better strategists.

[Rumblepit]

I have heard this accusation 3 times now. This is such bullshit. WE DIDN'T GO GET MORE RESOURCES, WE MANAGED THEM BETTER THAN YOU.

At the start of each round, the ground guys pulled ALL of our air a vehicle, then even MORE ground guys pulled BACKUPS of those vehicles, and parked them in assigned spots in the WG. Our pilots didn't even use ANY of their resources till they died for a 3rd time in each round.

There, the secret is out of the bag. We are better strategists.

LOL wow I was not making any such accusation. I was simply going threw some of the rules we went over. The "So on and so forth" should have implied that to the layman.... lol Your awfully defensive.

I said you guys were stacking.... Glad to see you guys finally stopped denying that.Its a start.

[TorinPS]

LOL wow I was not making any such accusation. I was simply going threw some of the rules we went over..... lol Your awfully defensive.

Your guys made those accusations though. "They must have gone to hossin for resources between rounds". "There is no way they could have that many air resources"

Also, for the record, we had 12 aircraft in the air. Not 24 or whatever your guys were claiming.

Beacons were unfortunately not allowed, because of a last minute snafu (ha!) with the rules, that left our guys at level 1 and unable to deploy them. If we had been told ahead of time that nobody was going to level our guys up, and we needed to do it on our own, we would have. Beacons were disallowed because only your guys had them.

Yes, you got screwed because of no beacons, no squad deploys, unable to keep sundies up, the deck was stacked against you from the start. Shit happens. RCCC is improving. Man up, get better, try again. Rules will improve, etc.

We played with dudes from our outfit. If you want to bitch and moan about bullshit technicalities in an attempt to twist it to make us look like we cheating, do it with your outfit mates, they are the only ones hearing that shit.

Retrogreq let it out of the bag. Our air guys weren't pulling aircraft until their 2nd or 3rd deaths. We had plenty to spare. Most of our squad was at 750 resources for the whole match, and coming out of the break practically everyone was maxed out. When you stay in the air, don't die, don't burn resources on second/third pulls, and kill people in air hexes, you get and keep resources. We knew this was a pivotal goal for the match, and we followed it. We pulled back when we were overcommitting, we intentionally avoided unnecessary deaths.

You guys have made plenty of accusations about how we cheated, and while I wanted to avoid any chest beating, you keep pushing the issue.

We had better guys in the air, and we beat you. Simple as that.

I don't know how many times you guys said "They had 25, 30 people in the air", etc. No, that was you guys. We had 16 guys in 12 aircraft, and we played it smart. We've got great pilots, and we came out on top.

Stop trying to make this out to be something it isn't. You're a butthurt sore loser.

You lost a scrim. Big deal. Man up, move on. The more you drag this shit out, the dumber you look.

Edit: If by stacked, you mean we've been recruiting good people for months, yeah, you got us.

Edit 2: I really don't know why I even recognize these posts and justify them with a reply. I'm done with this scrub.

[retrogreq]

LOL wow I was not making any such accusation. I was simply going threw some of the rules we went over. The "So on and so forth" should have implied that to the layman.... lol Your awfully defensive.The "So on and so forth"

I said you guys were stacking.... Glad to see you guys finally stopped denying it.Its a start.

I've moved on from the stacking thing, I know we didn't do anything wrong there.


We have been accused twice today of going to hossin at halftime to get resources, so I assumed that's what you meant when you started listing rules.....I thought you meant those were rules we have broken.

[Rumblepit]

I've moved on from the stacking thing, I know we didn't do anything wrong there.


We have been accused twice today of going to hossin at halftime to get resources, so I assumed that's what you meant when you started listing rules.....I thought you meant those were rules we have broken.

Why would someone suspect that?I assume it's because they think since you broke one rule why wouldn't you break another.

This is what happens...No trust....

[Rumblepit]

Your guys made those accusations though. "They must have gone to hossin for resources between rounds". "There is no way they could have that many air resources"

Also, for the record, we had 12 aircraft in the air. Not 24 or whatever your guys were claiming.

Beacons were unfortunately not allowed, because of a last minute snafu (ha!) with the rules, that left our guys at level 1 and unable to deploy them. If we had been told ahead of time that nobody was going to level our guys up, and we needed to do it on our own, we would have. Beacons were disallowed because only your guys had them.

Yes, you got screwed because of no beacons, no squad deploys, unable to keep sundies up, the deck was stacked against you from the start. Shit happens. RCCC is improving. Man up, get better, try again. Rules will improve, etc.

We played with dudes from our outfit. If you want to bitch and moan about bullshit technicalities in an attempt to twist it to make us look like we cheating, do it with your outfit mates, they are the only ones hearing that shit.

Retrogreq let it out of the bag. Our air guys weren't pulling aircraft until their 2nd or 3rd deaths. We had plenty to spare. Most of our squad was at 750 resources for the whole match, and coming out of the break practically everyone was maxed out. When you stay in the air, don't die, don't burn resources on second/third pulls, and kill people in air hexes, you get and keep resources. We knew this was a pivotal goal for the match, and we followed it. We pulled back when we were overcommitting, we intentionally avoided unnecessary deaths.

You guys have made plenty of accusations about how we cheated, and while I wanted to avoid any chest beating, you keep pushing the issue.

We had better guys in the air, and we beat you. Simple as that.

I don't know how many times you guys said "They had 25, 30 people in the air", etc. No, that was you guys. We had 16 guys in 12 aircraft, and we played it smart. We've got great pilots, and we came out on top.

Stop trying to make this out to be something it isn't. You're a butthurt sore loser.

You lost a scrim. Big deal. Man up, move on. The more you drag this shit out, the dumber you look.

Edit: If by stacked, you mean we've been recruiting good people for months, yeah, you got us.

Edit 2: I really don't know why I even recognize these posts and justify them with a reply. I'm done with this scrub.


LOL F U and F your air, I could give a rats ass what went on up there.lol look at my stats, im not even a pilot. The only thing the air was fighting over was the right to farm what ever is on the ground with impunity . Congratz to you and all matherson outfits that helped make that happen.

Frankly im just disgusted I wasted my time on you people lol

[Selentic]

Why would someone suspect that?I assume it's because they think since you broke one rule why wouldn't you break another.

This is what happens...No trust....

You can stop behaving like a disingenuous little fuck, we already know that a handful of you were accusing us of, among other things, going to hossin during the half time for resources.

Either way, I'm quite impressed, you single-handedly have managed to have such an amazing meltdown that you made jax's tiw vs fcrw one look tame by comparison.

[Rumblepit]

You can stop behaving like a disingenuous little fuck, we already know that a handful of you were accusing us of, among other things, going to hossin during the half time for resources.

Either way, I'm quite impressed, you single-handedly have managed to have such an amazing meltdown that you made jax's tiw vs fcrw one look tame by comparison.

Still not sure what you are referring to lol, jax's melt down??

I would have had a melt down if your infantry kicked our ass. I might have even quit the game, but they were more of a nuisance than a challenge .
I dont care about what happen in the air, this isn't about winning or loosing , its about following rules. Comon kido, get your shit together and try to keep up, thats what this thread is about.


"we already know that a handful of you were accusing us of, among other things, going to hossin during the half time for resources"???? Where did you gather this bad intel ? Matterson server?Nobody said anything about you guys going to hossin at half time in this thread .But the way guys are talking about it ,and being so defensive makes me think about it.

I wouldn't put it past any of those matherson boys to do such a thing.... Not saying thats what happen...

Did you guys go to hossin at halftime?It was strange to see all those gals at the end of the video, I thought our boys put a pretty good dent in your resources,guess not.

[Selentic]

Where did you gather this bad intel ? Matterson server?Nobody said anything about you guys going to hossin at half time in this thread

And I never said anything about in this thread bro.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3332789/misc/meltdown1.mp3

Still want to keep playing dumb?


Still not sure what you are referring to lol, jax's melt down??

I would have had a melt down if your infantry kicked our ass.

Uhm, hate to break it to you, but you've managed to keep this thread going for about seven pages now, where you've done nothing but embarrass yourself, your outfit, and quite frankly, anyone in this community who wants ps2 to develop a serious comp scene. I'm pretty sure that qualifies B)

[Naterian]

After listening to that youtube video and all that complaining I want to throw down now and shut these punks up for good so they have no pathetic excuse to clinge to.

If it's not because of spawn beacons then it's because of the map, if it's not the map it's because we team stacked if it's not that we team stacked it's because we cheated, WHAT A JOKE.

Please, rally up Connery's finest so we can get Mattherson's finest and absolutely steamroll over you fools and shut you up for good.

PFFFTTT I'm ready for some competition, LETS GO.


P.S. Jax reminds me of myself lololol

[Rumblepit]

Ill Ask again. Did you guys go to hossin at half time? Its a pretty straight forward and simple question.
What is it to pull a gal 450??? Like I said I wasn't in the air. They didn't take any of your guys down to 0 air resources?
I was pulling air for our flyers and I was out in the beginning of the second round lol

[Naterian]

Ill Ask again. Did you guys go to hossin at half time? Its a pretty straight forward and simple question.

NO

....

[retrogreq]

NO we did NOT go to hossin

My guys: We have nothing to prove, lets not reply to this guy anymore...okay? He doesn't represent their outfit as a whole, and we don't need to be bashing on them for just 1 person's actions. Requesting/talking about a rematch is one thing, but bashing them is another.

On the other hand, I'm not your mother.

[Soquez]

Ill Ask again. Did you guys go to hossin at half time? Its a pretty straight forward and simple question.
What is it to pull a gal 450??? Like I said I wasn't in the air. They didn't take any of your guys down to 0 air resources?
I was pulling air for our flyers and I was out in the beginning of the second round lol

Oh man. Dude between the audio and your posts, this thread has been so very comedic.

On a more serious note, thanks to the PSU for getting this all put together. I had a lot of fun and look forward to future competitions with whatever "title" you put on them.

Peace

[Dreadnaut]

Still not sure what you are referring to lol, jax's melt down??

I would have had a melt down if your infantry kicked our ass. I might have even quit the game, but they were more of a nuisance than a challenge .
I dont care about what happen in the air, this isn't about winning or loosing , its about following rules. Comon kido, get your shit together and try to keep up, thats what this thread is about.


"we already know that a handful of you were accusing us of, among other things, going to hossin during the half time for resources"???? Where did you gather this bad intel ? Matterson server?Nobody said anything about you guys going to hossin at half time in this thread .But the way guys are talking about it ,and being so defensive makes me think about it.

I wouldn't put it past any of those matherson boys to do such a thing.... Not saying thats what happen...

Did you guys go to hossin at halftime?It was strange to see all those gals at the end of the video, I thought our boys put a pretty good dent in your resources,guess not.
You're no longer even worth acknowledging or responding too and I'm rather shocked your outfit mates haven't told you to stop posting yet.

You're an absolute joke. Listen to that audio file yet? Aren't you in that same TS channel?? You heard it first hand...

Look forward to seeing MERC/TxR on the battlefield again and don't worry, I won't hold your entire outfit accountable for your asinine comments. I can't say that for the rest of my outfit tho, a bunch of them aren't as nice as I am and don't take too kindly to the accusations of cheating and getting resources on a different continent. They want a rematch like yesterday and I don't think you'll enjoy it much...

It's time for TGWW to exit this thread.

[Soquez]

You're no longer even worth acknowledging or responding too and I'm rather shocked your outfit mates haven't told you to stop posting yet.

You're an absolute joke. Listen to that audio file yet? Aren't you in that same TS channel?? You heard it first hand...

Look forward to seeing MERC/TxR on the battlefield again and don't worry, I won't hold your entire outfit accountable for your asinine comments. I can't say that for the rest of my outfit tho, a bunch of them aren't as nice as I am and don't take too kindly to the accusations of cheating and getting resources on a different continent. They want a rematch like yesterday and I don't think you'll enjoy it much...

It's time for TGWW to exit this thread.

Agreed.

[Changes]

Leader from TXR here.

We had a killer time in our Community Clash battle against NNG and TGWW. We were amazed by the skill shown by the enemy air squads that clearly was pivotal in the Vanu win.

We originally agreed to play this clean, plain and simple. We even mentioned how we would not do things like stream sniping. We all agreed in a TeamSpeak channel to play it clean. Here is our perspective about the controversies that followed our match:


--------------------------------------------------

Let's start out with the real story about the spawn beacons rule change:

When we originally met we agreed to additional rules:
1. Spawn Beacons WILL be allowed
2. Warp Gate swap at halftime
3. If Sudden Death: Pistols and Knives only in addition to sudden death rules

(originally posted on http://planetside.cc/forum/competitive-community-discussions/match-discussions/923-community-clash-4-txr-merc-vs-nng-tgww-nexus-48vs48-new-ruleset on 09-23-2013, 05:23 PM)

At our first meeting we agreed that we would have 10 people from each side granted BR 10 by a developer so we could cert into spawn beacons.

We were notified on Sept. 24th 11:48am by @ps2commclash the following: "FYI, I talked to Maggie today and the br leveling for squad beacon is a no go this week. Sorry guys" I responded by saying "Shit Ok. We will do the Old fashion way then." I clearly stated we would be responsible for leveling ourselves up to BR 10 "the old fashion way" on test server in order to procure our own ability to cert into spawn beacons.

TXR and MERCs did not find out about the no spawn beacons until 45min before the match when I happen to stumble upon a comment in the Community Clash Reddit thread. At our pre-op meeting we asked if NNG and TGWW would still honor the spawn beacon agreement. Dreadnaut and Jaamaw both were quick to deny us. We now can clearly see why after their show of force in the air. Without spawn beacons we would be forced to only be able to spawn from deployed Sunderers, which with air domination could be quickly disposed of.

--------------------------------------------------

Shortly afterwards I heard rumors of "ringer" pilots that TGWW brought into. That being said, here we go:

A simple question needs to be answered. Did you bring in people who are not in your outfit "full time"?


According to CC ruleset:
Player Makeup:
1) All members must be a full time member of the outfit they are representing for the event.
2) Substitutes for your team can be made at the halftime/intermission

http://www.planetside-universe.com/p-community-clash-rules-135.htm

If you brought in anyone who was not in your outfit, you clearly broke this rule, whether your outfit runs with them "all the time" or not.

We could have done the exact same thing but didn't. We had offers from TRG and NUC and still we held fast to our "let's play this clean" promise. It saddens me that people would feel like they need to resort to things like stream sniping and now padding their teams in order to win an event that is for the community and by the community.

My final thoughts: I can understand why people feel cheated, while some may argue that "no rule was broken" it is clear that the spirit of the rule was trampled upon, and in the future these type of events need to be very clear about the rules and have definite penalties if broken, including bans from future events. Let's grow from this and learn. Play fair or GTFO.

[Jax Blake]

Uh wow are we really going into stealing TS conversations now, brings back my old eve online days, if the planetside 2 metagame is evolving into that then I can't effin wait because that's when things get interesting. If I had to guess that came from a disgruntled former merc who is a disgruntled former trg member, who is so bad at this game and so unwelcome in almost every TR outfit on the server worth a damn that he's resorting to this in order to feel good.

You can ask any MERC and they will tell you that you beat us, there is not a single person who is saying otherwise, the post that dreadnaught made actually cleared up a few things and reinforced some issues that I had and still have but not with your outfit.

My anger with this whole situation and my absolute disgust as shown in that sound clip has nothing to do with my outfit or yours (at this point in time) but with the producers of this event because for me they absolutely failed and have yet to directly address the issue at hand. As far as the flying stuff I don't fly and when flying is involved for MERCs then Snafu is the guy to talk to.

In the future if anyone wants to hear something from a MERC just come out and ask and we can talk, no need to steal and leak conversations, that's some punk bitch shit right there.

[Coltorl]

Please, rally up Connery's finest so we can get Mattherson's finest and absolutely steamroll over you fools and shut you up for good.

PFFFTTT I'm ready for some competition, LETS GO.


P.S. Jax reminds me of myself lololol

Hey Noxous you there? Looks like he wants a challenge.

[Snoggy]

This is why I don't like these competitive events in closed arenas =P


What amuses me about all this is how poorly it reflects reality on the live servers... in that... for a first in PS2 history, air trumps all :D

I am just sad I didn't get a decent lib v lib fight. Soon as you step out of the warpgate there's six scythes shooting at you from max range. Not terribly interesting.

[TorinPS]

A simple question needs to be answered. Did you bring in people who are not in your outfit "full time"?


According to CC ruleset:
Player Makeup:
1) All members must be a full time member of the outfit they are representing for the event.
2) Substitutes for your team can be made at the halftime/intermission

http://www.planetside-universe.com/p-community-clash-rules-135.htm

If you brought in anyone who was not in your outfit, you clearly broke this rule, whether your outfit runs with them "all the time" or not.

Dreadnaut (lead of TGWW) has instructed everyone to pull out of this mess of drama that has developed. I'll reply to you, in a semi-official capacity.

RCCC posted new new rules for the Nexus 47v47 on 9/23/2013 (announced via twitter: https://twitter.com/ps2commclash/status/382153847156006912) and then posted a thread about it on Reddit later that day. (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/)

I, being someone that is an 'official' member of TGWW, but also someone who plays many factions on many servers, quickly replied to the thread attempting to clarify this very same rule. I asked quite plainly:

"All members must be a full time member of the outfit they are representing for the event." What does this even mean? I play characters on 4 different servers, across all 3 factions. I think I have 8 characters in total. Does that mean I would not qualify as a legitimate participant if one of my Outfits is participating?

...to which I was given the by Torkz of:

"This rule was intended to stop outfits from pulling a number of "ringers" from whatever outfit to participate even if they don't normally play together. ( I know its an honor rule and cant really be enforced )"

(quote here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/ccdy6me?context=3)

So, at this point, I consider myself being in the clear, for sure. Before getting to my next point, a little history:

A group of pilots on Mattherson who are self styled the 'elite' of Mattherson, all started out in different factions. Rudelord, myself, Thundahawk, Krunk on NC, Naterian, Corewin, Harvester, Arcfault on TR and Dreadnaut, Soquez, Aarth, Larx, Plasmaszap, Selentic, Friednug, DeimosRising on VS. (these are the pilots we fielded for the event)

At first, we all played against each other. Corewin, Naterian, Arcfault as member of TE, Rudelord and Thundahawk soloing, me playing with CML and Krunk playing with CIR. Harvester has been one of the notable great pilots in BWC, one of the few. Dreadnaut and Soquez were a member of a larger [zergfit] outfit by the name of AT, and fell out, creating TGWW with Retrogreq. Plasma and Larx joined later. Friednug is and has always been with NNG, selentic used to be and is TGWW now. DeimosRising and Aarth used to members of Vanu Rangers. (VR)

We all played against each other in our various groups, practically all of us at the time being single faction players. Over time, through killing and being killed by each other, we start playing with each other. TGWW was building up, but had not recruited most of their current ESF talent. QRY formed when Naterian, Corewin and Arcfault more or less stopped playing with TR and started playing NC, mainly to prove a point about the Reaver. (which everyone bitched about as being the worst ESF) QRY grew into the first real major air threat on the server, that when they came around, you were going to die. Pilots still dedicated to TR began to form a similar air wing called Notorious.

For a time, it was these 3 main groups that fought against each other, with other outfits fielding 1-3 competent pilots at most, usually. After months of fighting each other, we all started growing closer and closer. QRY would fly with TGWW on VS, TGWW would fly with QRY on NC. Some of Notorious would fly with both, etc. etc. Over time, and as mentions of MLG started ramping up, people started to consolidate their alts more and more. Thundahawk, Rudelord, Harvester had alts invited into TGWW. Myself, Dreadnaut, Selentic, Krunk, etc. got invited into QRY. We were slowly forming each other's outfits, to the point that when any number of ~20-30 of us would log in, we would bunch up together. Sometimes that got boring, and some of us would switch factions to fight the others. Sometimes we just pubstomped all day long.

Every single person we've had in the TGWW air squad on Friday, is or was a current member of TGWW or NNG. (at the time they joined, a number of the current TGWW roster fielded were members of NNG, so some of the VS alts like Corewin's alt NegativeAce)

Two people, members of NNG at the time, Selentic and Nobomba (Krunk, from the RCCC) started a recruiting effort for MLG, or whatever competitive scene might develop. Since we all already played with each other, they started to scout things out, trying to get commitments from people that we played with all the time, that if MLG or whatever started up, they'd be 'with us'. We got pledges from all these people. This was a good 3-4 months ago.

Not long after, Selentic and Nobomba left NNG and joined TGWW permanently, and kep these ties alive. We still kept playing with all the same people, be it on VS, NC or TR. We were 90% all a member of each other's outfits on our alts, and kept challenging each other and growing.

So RCCC starts up, and NNG field a squad for a 24v24, with I think 1 lib. After that, Liberators were banned from RCCC. We stayed on top of it, but it was a 12v12 thing for a while, so we knew we had no place. We were getting to the point of organizing all our people to start scrimming with outfits like NUC for MLG practice. Then the Battle Island was made available to NUC (and others) for testing. We started to get excited.

Almost immediately, when word got out that RCCC would be able to run platoon vs platoon matches, Dreadnaut put our name into the hat. This is when shit started to ramp up fast for our group. We touched base with all of our people, so who were not even actively playing PS2, but still interested in the competitive side if it ever happened.

Then rules were announced. I asked for my clarification, and got it. The spirit of the rule was defined as playing with people you normally played with. Well, perfect, that's exactly what we had.

But knowing full well not everyone would see the reddit thread, we, for good measure, added the handful of VS alts (Thundahawk, Harvester, Rudelord, Naterian) that had no outfit (just flew with us outfitless) into TGWW, as to cross a minor technicality off of the list, just in case people asked questions.

Then we went to the competition as we've been planning to do, together, for a great many months. Our chemistry still worked just as well as it had before Rudelord/Corewin/Thundahawk/Naterian took a break from PS2, and it all came together for us.

So yes, everyone was a member of either NNG or TGWW. 4 of them were invited the day before, or day before that, of the event. These people, have previously been members of either TGWW or NNG, but for purposes of recruiting and maintaining a good PSU Outfit Leaderboard score, were removed from the outfit temporarily. (since the VS alts were low BR)

From a technical perspective, we simply reformed the outfit relationship for people who were kicked to keep a high outfit rank for TGWW.

From a non-technical perspective, everyone of thee people (and more) are members of a group of Mattherson pilots, who are, basically among the best people in the air. Which isn't to say every single one of them (some only play one faction really, Roz, Skifton, Rahsun, etc.) and are not part of this larger multi-faction, always-play-together air group.

So:

a) we followed the letter of the rule by making sure they were a member of the oufit, of which they were previously, and temp kicked for recruiting reasons
b) we followed the spirit of the rule by ensuring the people we fielded were people we played with normally, which was the clarification provided to us by Torkz on reddit. (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1myq2r/rules_community_clash_have_been_updated_feedback/ccdy6me?context=3)

We felt then, and still feel now, that we've done nothing wrong. We clarified the rule with RCCC, we were in line with it both technically and spiritually. We violated no rules. We brought nobody in that was a member of another outfit. Not a single person left one outfit, to join us for this event.

Going forward, we'll likely keep (unless Dreadnaut goes back to kicking low BR people out to maintain a high outfit rank) everyone in the Outfit, to avoid future drama.

So no, we did not bring in people who were members of other outfits, not full time members of TGWW or NNG.

I can probably list off names of ~10 very good pilots on Mattherson that we don't normally fly with, that don't play VS, that would have absolutely been 'ringers' in the technical sense. We didn't think for a second about doing that, because we wanted guys we've flown with and against for 8 months, guys we know how to play with, etc. We had plenty of great pilots ready to go, and that's what we brought.

Sorry for the history of Mattherson air, but I felt it was a necessary clarification leading up to the point I was going to eventually make. And with any luck, this will quell future drama that may spring up if you see something along the likes of BAX+QRY appearing on the RCCC lineup. (which a lot of the guys really want to do, because the Reaver owns)

[Phrygen]

Leader from TXR here.

We had a killer time in our Community Clash battle against NNG and TGWW. We were amazed by the skill shown by the enemy air squads that clearly was pivotal in the Vanu win.

We originally agreed to play this clean, plain and simple. We even mentioned how we would not do things like stream sniping. We all agreed in a TeamSpeak channel to play it clean. Here is our perspective about the controversies that followed our match:


--------------------------------------------------

Let's start out with the real story about the spawn beacons rule change:

When we originally met we agreed to additional rules:
1. Spawn Beacons WILL be allowed
2. Warp Gate swap at halftime
3. If Sudden Death: Pistols and Knives only in addition to sudden death rules

(originally posted on http://planetside.cc/forum/competitive-community-discussions/match-discussions/923-community-clash-4-txr-merc-vs-nng-tgww-nexus-48vs48-new-ruleset on 09-23-2013, 05:23 PM)

At our first meeting we agreed that we would have 10 people from each side granted BR 10 by a developer so we could cert into spawn beacons.

We were notified on Sept. 24th 11:48am by @ps2commclash the following: "FYI, I talked to Maggie today and the br leveling for squad beacon is a no go this week. Sorry guys" I responded by saying "Shit Ok. We will do the Old fashion way then." I clearly stated we would be responsible for leveling ourselves up to BR 10 "the old fashion way" on test server in order to procure our own ability to cert into spawn beacons.

TXR and MERCs did not find out about the no spawn beacons until 45min before the match when I happen to stumble upon a comment in the Community Clash Reddit thread. At our pre-op meeting we asked if NNG and TGWW would still honor the spawn beacon agreement. Dreadnaut and Jaamaw both were quick to deny us. We now can clearly see why after their show of force in the air. Without spawn beacons we would be forced to only be able to spawn from deployed Sunderers, which with air domination could be quickly disposed of.

--------------------------------------------------

Shortly afterwards I heard rumors of "ringer" pilots that TGWW brought into. That being said, here we go:

A simple question needs to be answered. Did you bring in people who are not in your outfit "full time"?


According to CC ruleset:
Player Makeup:
1) All members must be a full time member of the outfit they are representing for the event.
2) Substitutes for your team can be made at the halftime/intermission

http://www.planetside-universe.com/p-community-clash-rules-135.htm

If you brought in anyone who was not in your outfit, you clearly broke this rule, whether your outfit runs with them "all the time" or not.

We could have done the exact same thing but didn't. We had offers from TRG and NUC and still we held fast to our "let's play this clean" promise. It saddens me that people would feel like they need to resort to things like stream sniping and now padding their teams in order to win an event that is for the community and by the community.

My final thoughts: I can understand why people feel cheated, while some may argue that "no rule was broken" it is clear that the spirit of the rule was trampled upon, and in the future these type of events need to be very clear about the rules and have definite penalties if broken, including bans from future events. Let's grow from this and learn. Play fair or GTFO.

Your definition and their definitions are clearly different, so its an impasse. Arcfault being in TEST for the purposes of being a reddit mod, and QRY on his NC and (formerly?) TE on his TR is a good example. He considers himself a TGWW, at least enough so to fit the rule set. I would assume by that definition you do not. Another example would be dreadnaught kicking the low level alts from TGWW, but still considering those players members (which he discussed in this thread).

Its on the RCCC guys to make the ruling, and they already stated that they cant/wont be doing so. Therefor in reality, the rule in practice is bring whoever you want and hopefully be honorable about it. If they have no intentions of enforcing the rules, well then they aren't really rules. They are suggestions.

Besides, look on the positive side of things. From what i have seen the losers of matches often have a much easier time finding other outfits to scrim with them than the "top tier outfits". No one wants to get stomped in an uneven match. its bad enough dealing with that in internal outfit practice. I've seen things get so one sided that its stops being a learning experience for one side after about 10 minutes.

In the end, this kinda stuff keeps happening over and over with RCCC and reflecting poorly on the event as a whole more than any one outfit. I have yet to see a match where the rule set wasn't a problem, rules weren't changed last minute or someone had an issue. And yes, this is a growing process, but it doesn't help that in most of them, the teams seemed completely lopsided. The only reason I kept watching recently was for the nexus. Its certainly not the lacking camera work or match i know the outcome of before the first half ends. Then these threads start up, and neither side can stay out of the mud. For every well reasoned post from an outfit, the same outfit has a guy flaming and trolling in broken english. Community building:huh:.



What amuses me about all this is how poorly it reflects reality on the live servers... in that... for a first in PS2 history, air trumps all :D


Air still dominates the live servers too, assuming the sides are completely even and don't reach a critical mass, but of course that is rarely the case. That said, i was a bit surprised that the TR strikers weren't that effective. Mountainous terrain i guess.

[Karzi]

Hey Noxous you there? Looks like he wants a challenge.

Really? That kid is the best you bring up? Really?
What sort of noob server is connery.

That kid is the name you bring up to fighter mattherson aces? That dude wouldnt be more than a medium pilot.
Hailstorm 10k kills , 25 % ACC 3.6 vehicle kills . LOL he farms infantry with his nosegun WOW , God tier pilot
The other 6k kills are lolpod kills so GG on his total of 18k kills.
Kid would get roflstomped.



@ Connerys best .
You guys are a bunch of whiner , you got destroyed you will get destroyed in MLG (if you dare to take part.) You called it stacking? I called it builiding a competive game. You feel cheated? We didnt break a rule , we didnt bring it guys from nuc or whatever outfit people think are the best pilots , we dont need to , our community has that pool of players if you dont that , well than you lose it is that simple.
You accuse us of going to hossin for ressource ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
hhahahaha oh man.
We are not a bunch of scrubs like you guys , we dont field masses of jokes in a mossie with tomcats in the air . We bring quality so we dont die as much as you , which ends in that we have more ressources than you , which leads to that you guys run out of ressources and we dont .
If you need to make that story up be my guest , add to the spawn beacon , they imbalance of the map and your inabilty to play good .
I already knew everything else than Mattherson is a joke , and shit like this makes me even more arrogant.

[Rolfski]

Mr Rolfski is essentially arguing for a lower skill cap in a competitive(!) mode, in a game with an already, by design, low individual skill cap - the nonsensicality of which is truly mind blowing.
Your failure to comprehend what was said amuses me. I never suggested any lowering of the skill cap. I suggested a better balance of skill vs rewards.

[retrogreq]

Your failure to comprehend what was said amuses me. I never suggested any lowering of the skill cap. I suggested a better balance of skill vs rewards.



Needless to say, this skill gap is ever increasing and is starting to become a serious issue for the longevity of this game. The air game is already screwed by this and infantry play is entering the danger zone as well. In the end, nobody wants a ghost town that is completely inaccessible to casuals/newcomers.

Quote from you on reddit. Sounds to me like Arc has the right of it.


The fact that TR leadership is still bitching about "ringers" is blowing my mind. Really guys...its over, Hamma already said we did nothing wrong.

[Rolfski]

Quote from you on reddit. Sounds to me like Arc has the right of it.

Nope. Here's the difference: The ever increasing skill cap is only a problem if SOE doesn't provide mechanics for casuals/newcomers to:

Faster overcome this gap (like the highly unpopular killcam)
Balances the rewards of higher skills (like choosing between reverse thrusting and AA rocket pods)


There is nothing wrong with an insanely high skill ceiling in itself. It's a great motivator for players to keep improving, especially in competitive gaming. But when you mix those hardcore uberskilled players on vanilla servers with casuals/newcomers, you've got to come up with mechanics to keep the game fun and rewarding for everyone or otherwise this increasing gap will make the game inaccessible. And my statement on reddit is that this game is in danger of becoming inaccessible. Posts of disillusioned new players like this one (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1n9tu4/new_player_very_lost/) you will find daily on reddit.

[retrogreq]

Nope. Here's the difference: The ever increasing skill cap is only a problem if SOE doesn't provide mechanics for casuals/newcomers to:

Faster overcome this gap (like the highly unpopular killcam)
Balances the rewards of higher skills (like choosing between reverse thrusting and AA rocket pods)


You are delusional.

[Rolfski]

You are delusional.
Love your argumentation. Very constructive, really helps this discussion.

[PredatorFour]

That kid is the name you bring up to fighter mattherson aces? That dude wouldnt be more than a medium pilot.
Hailstorm 10k kills , 25 % ACC 3.6 vehicle kills . LOL he farms infantry with his nosegun WOW , God tier pilot
The other 6k kills are lolpod kills so GG on his total of 18k kills.
Kid would get roflstomped.





Gotta love leet kids and their spiel. Bringing stats into it rofl. So f**ing what ?? Look at daddy's stats..... he is the no.1, yet he isn't at the same time.


As for the match i enjoyed watching the air battles, they looked really fun to take part in. Just like in real war aswell, vehicles are so precious. If you use up most of your resources early you a re screwed. People claimed there weren't many strategies with this as it is dominated by air yet the strategies come with resource usage, makes for interesting match ups. I enjoyed watching this match the most for sure.

[Rumblepit]

I have heard this accusation 3 times now. This is such bullshit. WE DIDN'T GO GET MORE RESOURCES, WE MANAGED THEM BETTER THAN YOU.

At the start of each round, the ground guys pulled ALL of our air a vehicle, then even MORE ground guys pulled BACKUPS of those vehicles, and parked them in assigned spots in the WG. Our pilots didn't even use ANY of their resources till they died for a 3rd time in each round.

There, the secret is out of the bag. We are better strategists.


There are 2 sides to every story...
source... http://www.pilotsguild.net/home



Moarwin...  I was trying to keep up with that PSU comment thread but jeez, these guys are thick headed. All that needed to happen for the roster to be legit was everyone being in the outfit tag TGWW or NNG at the START of the match. Lol. Oh, and nobody has brought up that they subbed in alts that had max resources at the half have they?



Quorum... I heard people talking about it last night could someone link it for me. Have not followed it. Sounds like they are pissed because TGWW got some QRY guys to join them?. . . That stupid! There is a diplomatic side to things too and if TGWW got some great pilots to "join" the outfit last minute well you just got beat on both the diplomatic and strategic front. Step up your game! All if fair in love and war bitches.



Quorum... LOLZ but lets face it we all know that was not the real TGWW that we see every night, that was Mattherson's best. Which just shows how well connected TGWW is to be able to muster all of those aces (tip of the hat to Dread). . . As I have said before the Real TGWW comms are more like hanging out at a coffee house (again with all due respect) not a frat house *cough*QRY*cough*. . .



lolololol01.. About making it public, be very careful, just because of the racism and some other comments. I would make it link only if you do decide to post on youtube and put the link to it on the private forums here on pilotsguild so only we can see it. Our comms were terrible and amazing at the same time though and was laughing whole way through :p (also meant I got to play my 2nd comm clash as I was with RGQT last week haha :p)


They think the Community Clash is a joke, and they think the rules are a joke.This is who they are. Im done here.

[Karzi]

Gotta love leet kids and their spiel. Bringing stats into it rofl. So f**ing what ?? Look at daddy's stats..... he is the no.1, yet he isn't at the same time.


As for the match i enjoyed watching the air battles, they looked really fun to take part in. Just like in real war aswell, vehicles are so precious. If you use up most of your resources early you a re screwed. People claimed there weren't many strategies with this as it is dominated by air yet the strategies come with resource usage, makes for interesting match ups. I enjoyed watching this match the most for sure.


Gotta love those kids who cant read stats right .
Stats are not everything but tell you about what sort person he is , Daddy is a farmer , loging bail assault , everybody knows that.

But stats still tell you what a person does while he is playing , he is afk? Is he a lib pilot? Is he a peaseant farmer? You can read that from stats , what you cant read is how he behaves in a fights , true but from the stats i posted i can cleary read that he doesnt kill alot of Planes with his nosegun , he kills a lot of peaseants thats for sure , but that doesnt make you a AA pilot.
Stats are not everything but they still matter , you just need to look for the right ones AKA . Accuarcy , KPH/VKPH and time .

[PredatorFour]

Gotta love those kids who cant read stats right .
Stats are not everything but tell you about what sort person he is , Daddy is a farmer , loging bail assault , everybody knows that.

But stats still tell you what a person does while he is playing , he is afk? Is he a lib pilot? Is he a peaseant farmer? You can read that from stats , what you cant read is how he behaves in a fights , true but from the stats i posted i can cleary read that he doesnt kill alot of Planes with his nosegun , he kills a lot of peaseants thats for sure , but that doesnt make you a AA pilot.
Stats are not everything but they still matter , you just need to look for the right ones AKA . Accuarcy , KPH/VKPH and time .

That's cute.

Playing against good players affects every stat you listed. Also does it list how many killsteals from people that deny the kill?? That's why you have to take them with a pinch of salt.

[Coltorl]

Really? That kid is the best you bring up? Really?
What sort of noob server is connery.

That kid is the name you bring up to fighter mattherson aces? That dude wouldnt be more than a medium pilot.
Hailstorm 10k kills , 25 % ACC 3.6 vehicle kills . LOL he farms infantry with his nosegun WOW , God tier pilot
The other 6k kills are lolpod kills so GG on his total of 18k kills.
Kid would get roflstomped.



@ Connerys best .
You guys are a bunch of whiner , you got destroyed you will get destroyed in MLG (if you dare to take part.) You called it stacking? I called it builiding a competive game. You feel cheated? We didnt break a rule , we didnt bring it guys from nuc or whatever outfit people think are the best pilots , we dont need to , our community has that pool of players if you dont that , well than you lose it is that simple.
You accuse us of going to hossin for ressource ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
hhahahaha oh man.
We are not a bunch of scrubs like you guys , we dont field masses of jokes in a mossie with tomcats in the air . We bring quality so we dont die as much as you , which ends in that we have more ressources than you , which leads to that you guys run out of ressources and we dont .
If you need to make that story up be my guest , add to the spawn beacon , they imbalance of the map and your inabilty to play good .
I already knew everything else than Mattherson is a joke , and shit like this makes me even more arrogant.

I'd like to see you try to shoot him down. Nox, Terrex07 and Datablue are the best pilots in the game.

By the way, I am not an official member of TxR, I did not participate because I had left that outfit long before.

[retrogreq]

There are 2 sides to every story...
source... http://www.pilotsguild.net/home



Moarwin...  I was trying to keep up with that PSU comment thread but jeez, these guys are thick headed. All that needed to happen for the roster to be legit was everyone being in the outfit tag TGWW or NNG at the START of the match. Lol. Oh, and nobody has brought up that they subbed in alts that had max resources at the half have they?



Quorum... I heard people talking about it last night could someone link it for me. Have not followed it. Sounds like they are pissed because TGWW got some QRY guys to join them?. . . That stupid! There is a diplomatic side to things too and if TGWW got some great pilots to "join" the outfit last minute well you just got beat on both the diplomatic and strategic front. Step up your game! All if fair in love and war bitches.



Quorum... LOLZ but lets face it we all know that was not the real TGWW that we see every night, that was Mattherson's best. Which just shows how well connected TGWW is to be able to muster all of those aces (tip of the hat to Dread). . . As I have said before the Real TGWW comms are more like hanging out at a coffee house (again with all due respect) not a frat house *cough*QRY*cough*. . .



lolololol01.. About making it public, be very careful, just because of the racism and some other comments. I would make it link only if you do decide to post on youtube and put the link to it on the private forums here on pilotsguild so only we can see it. Our comms were terrible and amazing at the same time though and was laughing whole way through :p (also meant I got to play my 2nd comm clash as I was with RGQT last week haha :p)


They think the Community Clash is a joke, and they think the rules are a joke.This is who they are. Im done here.


Quorum runs the Pilot's guild, he isn't a part of the inner workings of TGWW...his statements aren't accurate

[Quorum]

There are 2 sides to every story...
source... http://www.pilotsguild.net/home


They think the Community Clash is a joke, and they think the rules are a joke.This is who they are. I'm done here.

OMG you are a piece of work, pulling me into this shit storm! Do not quote me from my site out of context when you do not know me or my history

Please visit pilotsguild.net to see the whole story. I was commenting in ignorance of not even have read or known this thread was going on and not even having flown with TGWW for well over a month while I was attempting to work with an old outfit to help them step up their air game to make our Mattherson air even more competitive..

I cannot wait for a rematch you go ahead and pull in any ringers you want and the now "official" TGWW will eat you for lunch and puke you out because it tasted like shit.

Dread I am sorry posting to the APG before reading this thread and any problems I may have caused. My bad.

[Aaron]

This match was a community event for competitive fun. Why would any outfit cheat or be dishonest here? Gaining an unfair advantage through legitimate cheating would defeat the purpose of participating. Basically, if your outfit is seriously cheating, then your outfit is seriously having no fun. I highly doubt there was any fishy business going on. It was just one group of friends playing against another group of friends on even grounds. If there were any advantages for any one side, it would have been through technical difficulties and lack of communication, not malicious intent.

What we're seeing is a couple bitter people creating the illusion that something had gone wrong. It was a good game. There's really nothing to be upset about.

[Swineflu]

Nanites.
Fight me In real life

come @ me 520 glaze it.

[retrogreq]

Nanites.
Fight me In real life

come @ me 520 glaze it.

As always, Swineflu is the voice of reason.

[Swineflu]

it's simple, we kill the batman.

[Karzi]

Agreed the russian nucler warheads on cuba need to be removed

[Fortress]

Breaking news: Bad players get owned, whine on forums.

More at 11.

[Mustarde]

I already knew everything else than Mattherson is a joke , and shit like this makes me even more arrogant.

Oh boy :)

This thread was really disappointing, and I was less than impressed with TXR's "official" response. Just shake hands, say GG and accept the results of the clash. You got beat by some of Mattherson's finest in the air on a map that currently favors air superiority. The deck was not in your favor. Deal with it.

Coming here with accusations, trash talk, and complaints towards the participants and organizers of this COMMUNITY event does nothing except introduce a lot of bitterness and ill-will amongst the COMMUNITY that we are a part of.

As an outfit leader I would have expected the TR team to come out with a diplomatic response to this thread, and put a muzzle on the few bad apples making you look like sore losers. And if they refuse to wear the muzzle, give em the boot. Because all this butthurt looks worse than the beating you took during the match itself.

I should know, BWC got destroyed against DA in the 2nd CC. We had a rule change right before the match. It sucked, we lost hard (but played all 4 rounds and actually won the last round) and I'm 99% sure that regardless of the rules DA would have beat us. We quietly gave our constructive feedback regarding the rules/format to Reachcast, and publicly congratulated DA on their performance. As far as I'm concerned, this thread should be locked as it has already done enough damage to TXR/MERC and the otherwise positive competitive community that has been growing over the last few months.

[LeilaniRock]

^^see above.
Enough said.Now everbody go outside,get some fresh air and/or a cold beer.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Selentic]

hahah holy shit this is still going http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/selentic/Emotes/lmao.gif


In the future if anyone wants to hear something from a MERC just come out and ask and we can talk, no need to steal and leak conversations, that's some punk bitch shit right there.

I don't like it any more than you do, and I have no desire to post anything else from the recording, but if I need to directly contradict another MERC member who is lying through his teeth with it I'm not going to have any issue doing so.

[Rudelord]

this is alot of tl;dr for what could have been easily solved in one acronym and two words

QRY WINS AGAIN.

[Naterian]

this is alot of tl;dr for what could have been easily solved in one acronym and two words

QRY WINS AGAIN.

Word to the motherfucking streets, yo!

[Selentic]

Word to the motherfucking streets, yo!

we gangsta

[Karzi]

we gangsta

#Swag

[Sledgecrushr]

The best of mattherson beat 2 outfits from connery. An alliance of outfits fielded there best players and came to this competition disguised like they were all one outfit. The very best pilots from all factions and several outfits on mattherson got together and beat 2 individual outfits from connery. Really you guys shouldnt be so proud. Pride would have come with bringing your everyday outfit to this community clash.

[Phrygen]

The best of mattherson beat 2 outfits from connery. An alliance of outfits fielded there best players and came to this competition disguised like they were all one outfit. The very best pilots from all factions and several outfits on mattherson got together and beat 2 individual outfits from connery. Really you guys shouldnt be so proud. Pride would have come with bringing your everyday outfit to this community clash.

Proud? Three TGWW members defending their honor and explaining their concept of what the rules allowed. A few of the TXR/MERC guys have also provided well written posts as to why they feel the spirit of the rules were not followed.

The rest of the Mattherson pilots are are trash talk trolling because they know it upsets several other players.

I was told this forum was superior to the SOE forums....:rolleyes:

[Naterian]

The best of mattherson beat 2 outfits from connery. An alliance of outfits fielded there best players and came to this competition disguised like they were all one outfit. The very best pilots from all factions and several outfits on mattherson got together and beat 2 individual outfits from connery. Really you guys shouldnt be so proud. Pride would have come with bringing your everyday outfit to this community clash.

LOL

No one was "proud" of that rape. Maybe you don't realize how bored out of our minds we were, literally the second round we were just in typical noob farming mode like I'm trying to hit BR100 on some double XP weekend.

Actually it was more boring than that because there were no aircraft for me to dogfight and I couldn't leave to sk33t across the map looking for other targets. I just had to sit there and hose you guys down 2 at a time as you guys came out the spawn room. SO EXCITING.

Like I said, grab all of connery's finest and see how they stack up to us. Doubt I'll be impressed though!

MLG HIGHLIGHT REEL - YouTube

#MLGYOLO420BLAZEIT

[Shehadi]

I was unfortunate enough to be a member of the ground force being cut to ribbons by air for almost two hours. However, it kills me to see this event that started with such positivity, devolve into such bile.

We got beat, so the way I see it, is there is nothing to do but tip our hat and try to find a way to make sure it doesnt happen next time. I want to be able to say, that we could shake hands and tell each other "It was a pleasure, let's do this again some time."

As a member of the MERCS I would like to congratulate TGWW and NNG on a sound and firm victory, and I really hope that we do meet again in a scrim and leave this nasty business behind us

[Sledgecrushr]

I do have to say I am looking forward to seeing the mattherson elite go against the very best players on connery. This might be a little better match up than just picking on a couple of outfits that showed up with there regulars in good faith.

[Hamma]

Alright guys, if we can't learn how to be civil and stop the mud slinging I am going to close this thread. We do this for fun, we organize these events for Outfits to enjoy playing in a competitive closed environment.

Mud slinging and personal attacks of other outfits is NOT our goal, tone it down or I will end the discussion.

[TorinPS]

I do have to say I am looking forward to seeing the mattherson elite go against the very best players on connery. This might be a little better match up than just picking on a couple of outfits that showed up with there regulars in good faith.

Dude just stop posting. We brought our regulars. We didn't cherry pick a bunch of people from other outfits. These are our guys. There are more. Yeah, we honestly hope you bring your best.

[Phrygen]

Dude just stop posting. We brought our regulars. We didn't cherry pick a bunch of people from other outfits. These are our guys. There are more. Yeah, we honestly hope you bring your best.

To be fair, Naterian and harvester basically asked for this in the last two pages of the thread, and the mattherson pilots including yourself have acknowledged that that all the best pilots on mattherson have grouped up together, despite being in multiple outfits on the different factions.

I can agree with you when you say "these are our guys", but Ironfist could say the exact same thing if he decided to log on and do a scrim with the same players. I would respect that as well.

As such, its not fair to sledgecrusher to call him out for wanting to see the elite pilots of mattherson play against the elite pilots of connery. That is the situation that has been created. Frankly i dont want to see the mattherson elite pilots scrim anyone else but NUC or FTC + friends. its not fair and boring to watch.

[TorinPS]

To be fair, Naterian and harvester basically asked for this in the last two pages of the thread, and the mattherson pilots including yourself have acknowledged that that all the best pilots on mattherson have grouped up together, despite being in multiple outfits on the different factions.
To a lot of the Mattherson air community, concepts like faction and outfit are moot. We play all over the place, regardless of tag. We share many Teamspeak servers freely, bouncing from one to the other as situation warrants. We'll play with or without outfit tags, it doesn't matter. We're a group. For RCCC, what was already an established relationship, was made formal by the addition of a few extra outfit tags that had previously been in place. We aimed to meet the technical and spirit of the rule, and did that.

If the complaint from these guys is that a lot of great pilots on Mattherson are playing together, and that is unfair, then there isn't much I can add. "Sorry." It isn't going to change.

As such, its not fair to sledgecrusher to call him out for wanting to see the elite pilots of mattherson play against the elite pilots of connery. That is the situation that has been created. Frankly i dont want to see the mattherson elite pilots scrim anyone else but NUC or FTC + friends. its not fair and boring to watch.
No, that's cool. I mean, I welcome it. A lot of our ESF pilots got fairly bored in the second round because we ran them out of resources and they had little left to do. sledgecrusher keeps alleging that we broke the rule, simply by gathering a bunch of pilots together. That we were not truly an outfit. I contest that statement. I'll acknowledge that we have a lot of the best pilots on the server, that is intentional. Recruiting efforts have been made for months to accomplish that. This was the first formal coming-together of everyone for a competitive event. And it won't be the last.

[ReachCast]

Due to the confusion with the previous rule we are changing its wording from

“All members must be a full time member of the outfit they are representing for the event.”

To

“All participating members of the match are required to be a member of the outfit they are representing for a minimum of 7 days prior to the start of the event.”

I apologize for any confusion the previous rule created and I can understand the interpretation made by both sides of this argument. We still understand that this is honor bound but hopefully it provides a clearer intent of the rule. Thank you everybody for the understanding that we are doing the best we can to improve the format, rule set and overall quality of the match each week. In the end we are doing this to provide an event for the community to enjoy and participate in.

[TorinPS]

Thanks for the clarification Torkz, should simplify things going forward.

[NoXousX]

Hey Noxous you there? Looks like he wants a challenge.

He can come stream snipe me like every other pilot trying to prove something. I could care less in all honesty. I have more important things to worry about, like real aircraft.

'merica

[NoXousX]

Really? That kid is the best you bring up? Really?
What sort of noob server is connery.

That kid is the name you bring up to fighter mattherson aces? That dude wouldnt be more than a medium pilot.
Hailstorm 10k kills , 25 % ACC 3.6 vehicle kills . LOL he farms infantry with his nosegun WOW , God tier pilot
The other 6k kills are lolpod kills so GG on his total of 18k kills.
Kid would get roflstomped.



@ Connerys best .
You guys are a bunch of whiner , you got destroyed you will get destroyed in MLG (if you dare to take part.) You called it stacking? I called it builiding a competive game. You feel cheated? We didnt break a rule , we didnt bring it guys from nuc or whatever outfit people think are the best pilots , we dont need to , our community has that pool of players if you dont that , well than you lose it is that simple.
You accuse us of going to hossin for ressource ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
hhahahaha oh man.
We are not a bunch of scrubs like you guys , we dont field masses of jokes in a mossie with tomcats in the air . We bring quality so we dont die as much as you , which ends in that we have more ressources than you , which leads to that you guys run out of ressources and we dont .
If you need to make that story up be my guest , add to the spawn beacon , they imbalance of the map and your inabilty to play good .
I already knew everything else than Mattherson is a joke , and shit like this makes me even more arrogant.

This post made me lol. Screenshotting.

[Phrygen]

Thanks for the clarification Torkz, should simplify things going forward.

It is for the best that this has been clarified.

It has also in practice however, for better or worse, sanctioned the use of ringers, assuming teams are given more than a weeks notice. Rather easy to just outfit switch the players needed 7 days before the RCCC events. Hopefully teams will actively bring in the best players and resources that their outfits are missing, so that games are a little less one sides in the nexus.

Hopefully this will result in more server vs server RCCCs.

[Coltorl]

Due to the confusion with the previous rule we are changing its wording from

“All members must be a full time member of the outfit they are representing for the event.”

To

“All participating members of the match are required to be a member of the outfit they are representing for a minimum of 7 days prior to the start of the event.”

I apologize for any confusion the previous rule created and I can understand the interpretation made by both sides of this argument. We still understand that this is honor bound but hopefully it provides a clearer intent of the rule. Thank you everybody for the understanding that we are doing the best we can to improve the format, rule set and overall quality of the match each week. In the end we are doing this to provide an event for the community to enjoy and participate in.

Good call, close this thread.

[NoXousX]

Good call, close this thread.

But I'm enjoying the drama.

[Phrygen]

But I'm enjoying the drama.

Wait for the next RCCC then. It is inevitable.

[Coltorl]

But I'm enjoying the drama.

As much as I'd like to continue with my half eaten bag of popcorn, I'm too full to ingest anymore maybe next week.

[Selentic]

Wait for the next RCCC then. It is inevitable.

yeah p much, this one looks like it's run dry :[

[Rolfski]

“All participating members of the match are required to be a member of the outfit they are representing for a minimum of 7 days prior to the start of the event.”

Good call, although I would probably change that to 30 days prior to the event start, just to stay on the safe side of any possible all-star team accusations.

[Rumblepit]

Due to the confusion with the previous rule we are changing its wording from

“All members must be a full time member of the outfit they are representing for the event.”

To

“All participating members of the match are required to be a member of the outfit they are representing for a minimum of 7 days prior to the start of the event.”

I apologize for any confusion the previous rule created and I can understand the interpretation made by both sides of this argument. We still understand that this is honor bound but hopefully it provides a clearer intent of the rule. Thank you everybody for the understanding that we are doing the best we can to improve the format, rule set and overall quality of the match each week. In the end we are doing this to provide an event for the community to enjoy and participate in.

It is for the best that this has been clarified.

It has also in practice however, for better or worse, sanctioned the use of ringers, assuming teams are given more than a weeks notice. Rather easy to just outfit switch the players needed 7 days before the RCCC events. Hopefully teams will actively bring in the best players and resources that their outfits are missing, so that games are a little less one sides in the nexus.

Hopefully this will result in more server vs server RCCCs.

Good call, although I would probably change that to 30 days prior to the event start, just to stay on the safe side of any possible all-star team accusations.


Very clear intent indeed..... lol

[EVILPIG]

Good call, although I would probably change that to 30 days prior to the event start, just to stay on the safe side of any possible all-star team accusations.

30 days was my feeling as well.

Not to restart all of this again, but I don't understand how some felt the CC was a practice ground for MLG and MLG rules would apply when CC clearly stated it's own rules?

[matthewpeters]

Not to restart all of this again, but I don't understand how some felt the CC was a practice ground for MLG and MLG rules would apply when CC clearly stated it's own rules?

Pretty damn simple; CC roster rule was vague. An outfit asked for clarification. Said outfit roster complied with clarification. Jimmies were rustled because some believe the outfit in question did not follow original vague rule. CC Rules were updated to remove all confusion.

I've spent too much time reading through this all.

[EnderVS]

Wow, that took forever to read. I was going to try and stay neutral for my own sake but am struggling with that. I thought RCCC was a means to get some groundwork on having something fun competitively in Planetside 2? They've done that to the best of their abilities in a fashion that probably could only have only been done better if they could see into the future. Please keep doing the community clashes and don't tone them down and implement silly rules that end up being "formalities" for the sake of players that think they're better than they are. People are going to get butthurt after every single clash, it happens. That's part of losing if you decide that your in-game beating wasn't thorough enough. You always have the option of taking it outside the game too.

TGWW/QRY are the same group of people, if you want them to clarify 7 days before hand, whoop dee doo now they're clarified and bringing the same people to fight. What's the excuse going to be when they ARE all under the same name? It's not the same as saying all of connery vs all of matherson's finest, not even close.

Come match day, at the end of the day, if TGWW/QRY solidified themselves under a single outfit name they would all remain under that name after any event that they came together for. There would be no need for them to leave because they are literally all playing together most of the time. If you were to bring all of Connery's elite, at the end of the day.... you go back to your individual outfits. I think the difference is pretty clear cut and the situations are not even remotely the same. Mattherson's air elite have formed their own outfits that are basically called something else across the different factions, connery's air elite have not done this, they are not on the same team day in day out because they aren't in the same "group" of gamers as TGWW/QRY/N are. The group of gamers that are generally on the same TS nightly as well.

Comparing the best vs the best isn't relevant here and to bring it up is just reaching for anything at this point. Like I said, Mattherson's air elite do play together in the same squads nightly, Connery's don't. For whatever reason that's just how it evolved on Mattherson.

DA/TGWW are probably going to work out a scrim with NUC in the near future, i'd be pretty shocked if they got mad because of something like this. Granted a scrim is different from a RCCC....sort of, but isn't the point of any type of competition to win or learn from your mistakes? If DA ends up losing some scrim or RCCC, it's on us. I could care less who was on the other team, if there were ringers, if there were rule changes. The focus for the next week would be, "given what happened, how do we react in the future?" If my guys were to come on the forum and accuse people of cheating, or rc bending rules, or ringers and such I'd tell them to stop, delete the post, and knock that shit off permanently. What you should have taken away from this was be good enough or prepared enough to adapt in any situation at any time.

If you can't do that, you're probably not going to end up doing well in any competitions as they get more and more competitive. At the end of the day, as an outfit all that matters is our own performance. Focusing on anything else at all other than moving forward (and the extent the bs in this thread has gone to) is going to be detrimental. I'm sorry if that seems like a dick thing to say, but that's how I operate my outfit, and it's worked quite well for us. If I were in MERC's situation it would simply be a, "well back to the drawing board, what can we do better, what can we do to combat this type of thing in the future." I assure you, the answer would not be, go post on the forums about changes that NEED TO HAPPEN TO BE FAIR. It'd be an internal evaluation of why things broke down and anyone that tries to derail that line of thought is hindering the getting better process. If you get a rule changed great, you still didn't go back and make yourselves better and that air is going to pound you just as hard next time. You'll be in the same position because you focused on the wrong things.

Sorry you lost, fix it. RCCC is fine. EVERYONE knew going into a Nexus fight that it's an unfinished continent. We shouldn't really even have access to it, they know its broken, saying SOE needs to fix this shit is redundant. They know too. These things should have been expected going into the match. I have a favorite saying, "Shit Happens," because it does. The only response to "Shit" is to be good enough to overcome it, or to understand "Shit" so well you can out maneuver it in the future with little extra change or skill.

[LeilaniRock]

^Applause!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dreadnaut]

Uh wow are we really going into stealing TS conversations...

My anger with this whole situation and my absolute disgust as shown in that sound clip has nothing to do with my outfit or yours (at this point in time) but with the producers of this event because for me they absolutely failed and have yet to directly address the issue at hand. As far as the flying stuff I don't fly and when flying is involved for MERCs then Snafu is the guy to talk to.

In the future if anyone wants to hear something from a MERC just come out and ask and we can talk, no need to steal and leak conversations, that's some punk bitch shit right there.

I said that TGWW should exit this thread, and I meant it, however I had planned on responding to this post before I exited the thread and forgot too. I was gone at a buddies wedding for the last 3 days and didn't have a chance to respond. My apologies.

- - - - -

Your anger being directed at the Producers of the RCCC is unfounded and they did nothing wrong. We all played under the exact same rules and the exact same map. We had no advantage nor did you. RCCC crew should be commended for putting this together for the community and nothing less. They had to work with a broken test server as did we, and there is absolutely ZERO reason to place any blame on them. If you believe that rules were vague, politely ask them to clarify them, don't berate them. Had the rules been more 'clear' nothing would have changed, the outcome would have been exactly the same, as my team would have been the exact same 24 hours, 7 days, or 30 days prior to the event. If you have suggestions for them, please let them know what they are as they have stated on multiple occasions they are working to make this event better and better every time.

I understand that there is still a little confusion about the spawn beacons, and that there was some mixed messages there...however, we all had to deal with the same situation, no one had an advantage.

As far as 'stealing TS conversations' goes, if you think I care enough about a scrim to go do something shady like that, you'd be 100% wrong. How would one go about 'stealing' TS conversations anyway?? Please enlighten me because my TS server requires permissions to get into most of the channels.

Now, if one of your OWN guys was streaming it live to the internet, and someone anonymously sends me a link to the recording, am I stealing your TS conversations?? It wasn't till sometime the day after the match that someone said to me, "Couple of their guys thought you were cheating, listen to this...and btw, here are the time stamps of them losing their shit and fighting with each other like children". Of course I listened. I actually wasn't upset about anything I heard as I'm used to being called a cheater, and most of the guys in my outfit are used to being called cheaters. But that usually comes from guys who are BR 3 and don't know what skill is. I know when I'm accused of cheating that whoever it is, is just ignorant, stupid, or both. In this specific case I don't think anyone is stupid, maybe a little ignorant of the situation though. I do understand when you're frustrated that sometimes people say things off the cuff, so I'm not taking any accusations personally. Accusing us of leaving the continent at half time was just dumb. That didn't happen. If I found out any of my players did it, they would be removed.

Our resource management was key, and it's already been posted how we were so successful in doing so. I also had to giggle and the # quotes of how many aircraft we had in the air which were WAY off, sometimes quoted more than double what there actually was. We've just been doing this a long time, and it's what we do. We're used to playing with less people in the air and to be honest, we get beat down A LOT. We get our asses handed to us by superior #'s on a regular basis. We use those situations to get better and we're finding that we have a the ability to kill larger #'s of guys in the air by good communication and good pilots. We're not the best, but we work hard and we have a desire to win.


Now, on to the REAL issue with that sound clip...

The fighting you have between your own members was the worst part of that sound clip. This is a game, and it sounded like someone had just said something bad about your mom and your sister to your face and you were ready for blood. You guys need to fix that stuff before you EVER get into another scrim or match. That type of infighting will do nothing but tear you all apart from the inside. The comment, "I HAVE SERIOUS ISSUES HOW THIS OPERATION WAS RUN" was pretty silly. It didn't matter what you did, and no one had any control on the ground. Once we took over the air we knew there would be absolutely nothing you could do to stop us. We're in the air all the time, we looked at the Nexus and came up with a plan and knew that if we controlled the air, we would then control the ground. It's a delicate balance but we had a plane to make it work.

A quote from our website:
"Since the German attack on Poland in 1939, no country has won a war in the face of enemy air superiority, no major offensive has succeeded against an opponent who controlled the air, and no defense has sustained itself against an enemy who had air superiority. Conversely, no state has lost a war while it maintained air superiority, and attainment of air superiority consistently has been a prelude to military victory. It is vital that national and theater commanders, their air component commanders, and their surface component commanders be aware of these historical facts, and plan accordingly."

Your arguing, bitching, screaming and yelling was to NO fault of any member of TxR/MERC. There was nothing they could do and screaming at them has no positive effect. We killed every Sundy as fast as we could, we did everything possible including the idea of suicide runs in a Lib just to kill a Sundy. Being willing to Sacrifice your own Liberator which you may or may not be able to pull again to kill a spawn point is something we had to weigh very heavily. But it was in the plan and we'd do it if needed. We also aren't strangers to capping bases from the air, and as you can see in the videos, we did that in a few cases fairly successfully.



Speaking as a man, to a man, all you need to do is say, "I was upset, I said dumb things, I'm sorry" and we can all be friends again. I'm not going to hold a grudge and I hope no one else will over a silly game.

Props to Forsosh for being the calm voice of reason on TS. That's a guy you want to keep around for a long time. That type of attitude is what we ALL need to emulate.



I'll direct my other questions directly to TxR/MERC leadership as it doesn't belong here.


TL;DR
Stop the infighting between yourselves or you won't ever be successful in anything you do, video game or not.

[Coltorl]

This thread should be over TGWW had a group of players that were 10x better than what TxR and MERC could muster at the time. As a viewer I personally think the team's were stacked as hell and that's why I couldn't enjoy it. If this was the originally planned TxR vs NNG it would have been much more fun to watch.

[EnderVS]

Logic & Reason

Dread, you and your logic...jeez. Stop that already......and stop being so good at what you do, it just ruins my immersion.

This thread should be over TGWW had a group of players that were 10x better than what TxR and MERC could muster at the time. As a viewer I personally think the team's were stacked as hell and that's why I couldn't enjoy it. If this was the originally planned TxR vs NNG it would have been much more fun to watch.

It wouldn't have been 48v48 then, how does RCCC go about pairing outfits up that are similar level. It's not really that feasible and its more up to the outfits to bring their A-Game.

[TorinPS]

To be fair to RCCC, there is only so much you can do on the Outfit pairings. Most outfits won't have enough people to field a single 48 man squad, so this outfit coupling was the natural progression.

They aren't going to know who everyone is, how good everyone is, how good the outfits will work together, etc. The RCCC is fleshing some of this out for them. A meta-game is being created around RCCC results, and it will lead to better pairings in the future. When an outfit is relatively unknown on the 'scene', they need to get out there and prove themselves, before they can really be used properly in future events.

We can't really expect RCCC to have 'known better', I mean, look at all the feedback on the match-up prior to the event? Like 90% of everyone giving feedback was saying TR was going to win, or they were rooting for TR. If the outcome of the match was predicated on who the majority of people thought would win, it would have gone the other way.

Simply put, nobody outside of Mattherson really knew who TGWW was, or who TGWW would bring to something like this. Every pilot on Mattherson though could probably recount a bunch of personal stories about how TGWW kicked their shit in, or QRY locked every air unit they could pull inside the warpgate. But RCCC isn't going to know all that.

This is all a crap shoot right now. RCCC is developing a platform for outfits to put it all out there. They do their best to make pairings that, based on their intelligence seem like it should be a good match. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. The next match TGWW is involved in will probably be against another outfit with a proven air wing. Live and learn, not bitch and moan.

[Phrygen]

I think the difference is pretty clear cut and the situations are not even remotely the same. Mattherson's air elite have formed their own outfits that are basically called something else across the different factions, connery's air elite have not done this, they are not on the same team day in day out because they aren't in the same "group" of gamers as TGWW/QRY/N are. The group of gamers that are generally on the same TS nightly as well.

Comparing the best vs the best isn't relevant here and to bring it up is just reaching for anything at this point. Like I said, Mattherson's air elite do play together in the same squads nightly, Connery's don't. For whatever reason that's just how it evolved on Mattherson.


Personally i don't think the differences are clear cut at all. In fact the status of TGWW/QRY is only obvious to those who know about those players, and certainly wouldn't be obvious to players on another server.

For example, how are mattherson players to know what the elite pilots on Connery actually do, what alts they have, and who the fly with? More importantly, why would most players make the effort to acquire that information.

The 7 day rule is the best thing that can be done. It sanctions the use or ringers and removes responsibility for regulation of rules on the part of RCCC, while giving spectors a better chances of seeing the best players play. Besides, its not like all the top outfits aren't going out of their way to recruit the best players possible, and there are plenty of outfits that are already going to refuse to take part in RCCCs against the top outfits unless they can bring in outside help.


It wouldn't have been 48v48 then, how does RCCC go about pairing outfits up that are similar level. It's not really that feasible and its more up to the outfits to bring their A-Game.

That is the larger point. The more all the best players are gathered into single teams, the less competition is available, and the less likely a competitive PS2 scene with longevity will emerge. This isn't a 4v4 halo or COD competitive scene. Right now there are maybe 3-4 potential top teams imho, and then everyone else who simply can not compete. Taking mattherson for example, there is simply no one left to bring an A-game in the air besides TGWW/QRY, and those that potentially could have are losing top skilled members to TGWW/QRY. Its not like PS2 has a noticeably growing player-base, and while i'm excited to see what optimization can bring, there are many hurdles that PS2 will have to cross in order to keep growing. Just this week alone is a hurdle in the form of BF4.

So when it comes to an RCCC like this, you either let it be server vs server and bring whoever you can, or you strictly enforce outfit rules (and that is not possible). Doing something in between results in what happened during the last RCCC, and one sided route that was, personally speaking, only enjoyable because its a chance to look at the new Nexus.

I already said it in this thread, but as I see it, the MLG score/$ value on the DA site being in initial basis for salary capping teams is the best chance PS2 has of becoming MLG viable. But hey, maybe the 3-4 teams that do become MLG viable can just have alts and pretend to be a completly different team and a full 8 team league can happen:lol::rofl:

[retrogreq]

Just this week alone is a hurdle in the form of BF4.

Not gonna lie, I'll be flying the attack helicopters around those skyscrapers all month.

Viper, Caspian border, Retrogreq flying, Dougal gunning (Both TGWW)

[Sardus]

Your third paragraph was the issue we had. After the air was under VS control every push we did, even to defend bases, we had to go back to warpgate and pull resources to get back into the fight. Not only for Sunderers & Galaxies (which both would be hit or destroyed before moving out past the first line of bases) but also for the AA resources to deter their air.

Definitely a huge drain on resources and time to do this considering the current form of the Nexus' spawn mechanics, as well as having no spawn beacons or ability to squad deploy.

Getting an infantry force set up anywhere becomes a matter of attrition from air attacks, as there is not any safe locations for sunderers, or, broadly, from spawn room to capture points when defending.

On Live, that is something we do quite often too Sardus, but on Nexus it plays out very differently.

Maybe do what the outfits of antiquity did. Mossy or Libby drops.

Take a bunch of mossies, strap on afterburners, and just run like hell to the target. Then hack stuff out.

[Sardus]

I agree with you 100%, yet we all had the same issues to deal with. No one had the use of squad deploy or beacons and to hear people complain about not having that worked both ways. I wish squad deploy and beacons had been working but once we were told beacons would not work, we made a game plan based off of that information (Liberators certing Ejection seat, etc). When we were told 60 minutes prior to the match that beacons would in fact work, I voted to not use them based on our new plan that we put in place. To revert to an old plan with less than an hours notice wasn't something I was at all interested in doing.

We came up with a plan and it worked based on the current rule set and the map. Our plan just worked out better than your plan, that's all. I don't think any less of MERC/TxR for losing a silly scrim, we just happen to have won that night.

Elaborate plans will always fail and the K.I.S.S. principle will always be the best option. That was our super secret plan, "Keep It Simple Stupid". As I stated before, it was literally, "Kill SNAFU first, Kill NAPOOPAN second, kill MAGNIFISCENT third, then focus fire everyone else. Be very very aggressive at the start. Be smart, listen to Nate, otherwise don't speak. Listen for the Sunderer strike calls...spawn points win matches, DO NOT let the enemy spawn, force resource drain, whatever it takes, DO NOT let a Sunderer live."

I don't believe that having beacons or squad deploy would have had any different effect on the outcome of the match, but that's just coming from the confidence level in my guys.

What we know after this match:
Resources need to be replenished at 1/2 time. Absolutely no reason to punish a team in round 2 for having a bad round 1.
All resource gain should be MUCH higher so people aren't stranded so early on

Yeah, I'd imagine the liberator with Ejection seat to be a very valid tactic.

Galaxies will not be as useful in nexus. They are too easy to hit and to spot. And if you lose one, you're 12 guys down. If you lose one lib, you're only 2 or 3 down.

Heck, I don't even think sunderers are very useful. Once beacons and squad deploy are working, that'll be the most important way to get people back into the fight, and that is ONLY when you're desperate, as medics and engineers will be incredibly important for the attackers. Relying on a sunderer can be a very easy way to get removed. Sticking together with medics, is what I recommend.

If you rush with mossies, you're even harder to kill, but coordinating people to drop properly with just mossies is not easy.

I hope they put in closer hackable spawn points near the major objectives. I haven't looked too closely at Nexus... are their camps/towers near the enemy bases?

Until then, strategy is going to rely on getting to the target with as many people as possible, and keeping them alive without the use of a hard spawn. Not easy for an attacker to do. Relying on a hard spawn is a poor choice, namely because it can be easily killed.. and if you don't have the tenacity to hold a base without the use of a hardspawn, the defenders are probably good enough/strong enough to take it back anyways.

[Lepalose]

I said that TGWW should exit this thread, and I meant it, however I had planned on responding to this post before I exited the thread and forgot too.

If you meant it, then you should have acted upon it. Preaching about locker-room dynamics after an 'anonymous' source passes you a recording is clearly trying to infuriate my members, as sort of a 'passing-shot' as this conversation is supposed to die down.

I have no apology for you about how my players, in the moment of a loss and privately in conversation, reacted to the loss with each other. This was a private conversation, and this was venting. The passion they bring to competition is clear on the recordings, and I can understand the anger and frustration that they had. Their feelings and frustrations are their own. How we deal with that is an internal matter. Moreover, these do not represent the broader reaction within our community coming out of the loss nor the attitude of MERC leadership. Indeed, it has been a really energizing experience with some lessons that we learned from it.

To state the fact, we had a member take it into his own hands to continue to express his anger via this forum. Again, while I understand his frustrations with the situation, he is not speaking on behalf of MERC when he has posted as he too was inflammatory to this issue.

This is the only statement you will get from myself or MERC leadership on recordings of personal conversations, and of our member that was out of line in posting on forums.

Next, I understand that you believe your community of pilots across all factions constitutes the TGWW outfit. However PS2 communities are generally built around a singular faction, loyal to a certain team, one that they play continually with. This to me does not mean "play[ing] all over the place, regardless of tag ...shar[ing] many Teamspeak servers freely, bouncing from one to the other as situation warrants." And while we have numerous players including myself that will play all factions and with different groups, especially our best fliers, that does not mean by association these outfits and friends are all a part of the MERC community. So while we had offers of numerous friends and great players that are connected broadly to our community, it was our choice to follow what we believe to be the spirit of the rule and use only players directly in our outfit, that are core to our outfit, that primarily play our faction.

Now, it has been made clear that our groups differ in what we believe constitutes an outfit and community in this game for competitive play. I was concerned and knew about the situation of non-outfit members being added directly before the match, but we went into the match without raising an issue.

This issue of what constitutes an outfit is what MERC wanted clarification on after the match from the RCCC group holding these events for the future. While I too believe that a 30-day rule would be better then a 7-day rule, they have now been clear as to what the rule is. This is a positive outcome from all this mess.

People can still game the honour system (e.g. create a character on TEST server with an outfit member's name while really being a ringer), I would ask members of those outfits if they really want to be a part of a community that is willing to gut itself in order to look better for broadcasts. After all, ringers like that will only play on your side until you lose, and where will that leave you?

We went forward in the competition despite our concerns of outfit membership and the (sudden to me despite being a leader) change to spawn beacons. We did so because this is an event put on in the free time by the RCCC with PSU support. The CC is an evolving thing and I respect what they are doing with it. I had a lot of fun participating, but I believe that asking for clarification on rules is important to helping improve it. I also know that my outfit members really enjoyed it as well despite the loss, and indeed it would be something that we would like to participate with again in the future.

Finally, to address the talk about skill-level differences in this match. I believe what you saw in the NNG/TGWW vs TXR/MERC match was not a huge difference in skill levels as a whole, but a decision that we as TR leaders made with regards to air resources at the start of the match which given the map, resources and spawn options spiraled out of control. NNG & TGWW capitalized on that mistake, and should be commended for that, and for executing their plan extremely well. They have every right to be proud of that in this win. However, despite the lead in the first half, the starved resources, and issues spawning there was a period of time that TXR/MERC kept it close in the second half. So we have a single data point to judge and compare, and NNG/TGWW certainly won that one. But I believe that this one match though is not indicative of either TXR or MERCs potential, and I look forward to our future matches.


TL;DR: private conversations deserve to remain private, MERC accepts the clarification by RCCC to the rules regarding what makes a team, MERC congratulates NNG/TGWW for the win, MERC will continue to compete in the future.

[retrogreq]

...shar[ing] many Teamspeak servers freely, bouncing from one to the other as situation warrants."

I just want things to be crystal clear, but when they were referring to multiple TS's, they are DA's, NNG's, and TGWW's. When we all aren't in TGWW's, we are in the outfit we are supporting's TS.

[TorinPS]

I just want things to be crystal clear, but when they were referring to multiple TS's, they are DA's, NNG's, and TGWW's. When we all aren't in TGWW's, we are in the outfit we are supporting's TS.

Unless we are collectively playing a different faction, in which we could be on any number of other Teamspeak servers. (QRY, BAX, N, etc.)

[retrogreq]

Unless we are collectively playing a different faction, in which we could be on any number of other Teamspeak servers. (QRY, BAX, N, etc.)

I was under the impression ironfist let the QRY TS die months ago.

[TorinPS]

I was under the impression ironfist let the QRY TS die months ago.

Nope. :)

[retrogreq]

Nope. :)

You should check again, Arc says it's down, and so does Dread.

[Dreadnaut]

If you meant it, then you should have acted upon it. Preaching about locker-room dynamics after an 'anonymous' source passes you a recording is clearly trying to infuriate my members, as sort of a 'passing-shot' as this conversation is supposed to die down.
I'm slowly starting to lose my desire to be polite when I read things like this. No need to be snippy with me when your members are the ones that started this completely asinine TGWW bashing. I'll post as I see fit, I retract my previous statement. Now you sir have my 100% undivided attention.


TL;DR: private conversations deserve to remain private, MERC accepts the clarification by RCCC to the rules regarding what makes a team, MERC congratulates NNG/TGWW for the win, MERC will continue to compete in the future.
Private conversations don't deserve to be kept private when your member is openly lying on a public forum and the only way for us to contradict those statements is to prove we know otherwise. We didn't steal anything, we didn't do anything wrong, we just proved your member was lying and it wasn't heresay.

No need for you to get on your horse when your members are the ones responsible for all the bickering back and forth.

[Rumblepit]

I'm slowly starting to lose my desire to be polite when I read things like this. No need to be snippy with me when your members are the ones that started this completely asinine TGWW bashing. I'll post as I see fit, I retract my previous statement. Now you sir have my 100% undivided attention.


Private conversations don't deserve to be kept private when your member is openly lying on a public forum and the only way for us to contradict those statements is to prove we know otherwise. We didn't steal anything, we didn't do anything wrong, we just proved your member was lying and it wasn't heresay.

No need for you to get on your horse when your members are the ones responsible for all the bickering back and forth.

Proved he was lying??? You must mean me.What was I lying about?I did speculate that you guys went to hossin at half time, but i never accused you of it ,because I wasn't sure.Knowing what I know now,I know you didn't. From what I gathered from the QRY forum you just brought in a bunch of alts at halftime with max resources. Again not against the rules, but against the intent of the rule.

As for the intent of these rules. I think you will see most outfits have a clear understanding of these rules and wont be inviting all the ringers on their server when they show up at CC. But there are always be a few that will take it upon themselves to take advantage of the intent of these rules.That being said we now know what to expect when a matherson outfit is on CC.

[TorinPS]

You should check again, Arc says it's down, and so does Dread.

http://i.imgur.com/XVSlruv.png

[retrogreq]

http://i.imgur.com/XVSlruv.png

I wonder what server arc and dread are talking about, or if this server you are in is actually the 2nd one that got put up, not the "official/original" one.

[TorinPS]

From what I gathered from the QRY forum you just brought in a bunch of alts at halftime with max resources. Again not against the rules, but against the intent of the rule.

a) QRY don't have forums
b) They were accusing you of bringing in alts at half time, not admitting that we did

[TorinPS]

I wonder what server arc and dread are talking about, or if this server you are in is actually the 2nd one that got put up, not the "official/original" one.

Nope, official one. (hence the The IronOfficeLMS channel) Second one is currently under lock and key, but it sucked anyways. (thanks a lot GodKurt)

[Selentic]

From what I gathered from the QRY forum you just brought in a bunch of alts at halftime with max resources. Again not against the rules, but against the intent of the rule.

Ah yes, we brought in our alts, that had identical names to our mains, and went to hossin with them at half time. It all makes sense now!

[Rumblepit]

Moarwin...  I was trying to keep up with that PSU comment thread but jeez, these guys are thick headed. All that needed to happen for the roster to be legit was everyone being in the outfit tag TGWW or NNG at the START of the match. Lol. Oh, and nobody has brought up that they subbed in alts that had max resources at the half have they?


LOl damage control.... Well im sorry I just don't buy it. He was talking about me bitching about the roster here" All that needed to happen for the roster to be legit was everyone being in the outfit tag TGWW or NNG at the START of the match. Lol. Then he continues elaborate on the subject ,key words "Oh and" like he forgot to mention..."and nobody has brought up that they subbed in alts that had max resources at the half have they?"

Everybody who watched the stream new we were out of resources 15 mins into the second round,so why in gods name would he be talking about us?Also pulling ,what was it? 30 or 40 gals at the end kind of blew up your spot.


He must as clueless as you said this guy was.

Quorum... LOLZ but lets face it we all know that was not the real TGWW that we see every night, that was Mattherson's best. Which just shows how well connected TGWW is to be able to muster all of those aces (tip of the hat to Dread). . . As I have said before the Real TGWW comms are more like hanging out at a coffee house (again with all due respect) not a frat house *cough*QRY*cough*. . .

[Dreadnaut]

Oh, and nobody has brought up that they subbed in alts that had max resources at the half have they?

We didn't sub in a single pilot at 1/2 time. They were the same crew for round 1 and round 2. You just got beat and you're grasping at straws as to why. Stop crying, take your loss like a man, stop being so accusatory, and go get better.

If you think you got stomped bad in that match, wait till you play a team that has actually practiced and and seen the map before the start and they'll roll you 5x harder than we did in 1/2 as much time. Maybe that will be us, again, after we've worked out our issues as we were far from great during that scrim.

That being said we now know what to expect when a matherson outfit is on CC.
What does any other outfit on Mattherson have to do with the Community Clash event???

You're an ignorant troll and it's clear to everyone you're just bad.

[Rumblepit]

What does any other outfit on Mattherson have to do with the Community Clash event???

You're an ignorant troll.

Because apparently everyone on Matherson is in the same outfit.

"Tip of the hat to dred " Your a lying jackass. It brings me great joy to know all these people get to see you for what you are.See ya in game cupcake...

[Dreadnaut]

"Tip of the hat to dred " Your a lying jackass. It brings me great joy to know all these people get to see you for who you are.See ya in game cupcake...
Scoreboard.

Cupcake? I saw you in game, and we crushed you, over, and over, and over again. You wanna talk big now?? LOL

Oh, and it's you're btw.

[Selentic]

i think zoe max needs a nerf

[Selentic]

btw ps2 comp community is already off to a great start if this thread is any indication

[Phrygen]

So.... does anyone moderate this forum?
i mean really Naterian, first one was at least funny. Second is in poor taste.

[Hamma]

This thread has officially run it's course. Thank you everyone for your feedback and tune into the next show coming up Wednesday official announcement will be up tomorrow.