NC MAX Hacksaw test slugs vs spread

[mrmrmrj]

This is no as scientific as some have done and there is no video but here is what I found. These are for dual Hacksaw only.

Slugs vs Infantry: 2 @ <10m, 3 >10-30m but hard to hit reliably at 30m+.
Spread vs Infantry: 2 @ <10m, 4 >10m and worse the farther you are.

Slugs are clearly superior vs infantry. You can also pick guys off on roofs and through windows much more effectively.

Slugs vs MAX: 20 @ 5m, 22 @ 10-15m.
Spread vs MAX: 14 @ 5M, 24 @10m and quickly much worse beyond that

Slugs are less effective even though I remember reading something about them being better vs MAX. Extended magazine is critical MAX vs MAX, though. With dual extendeds, I can kill an enemy MAX with slugs or spread without reloading. This is HUGE and worth the 1000 certs.

[EVILPIG]

Welcome to last Feb.

[Wahooo]

I don't have a lot of time in an NC max but basically it goes like this.
Attacking biolab? = shot
Defending biolab = 1arm shot 1arm slug
everything else slugs.
You just have to aim.
Extended mags are a must an really any max weapon on whatever empire offers it... but yeah they are required to balance the max v max.

If there is another 3x SC sale again I'll be getting dual hacksaws, though it is just from VR I think slugs are just better with them. UNLESS they would buff the accuracy of slugs for the mattock which I personally think should be done, if it is supposed to be better at range it would be nice if those few shots you have could hit where you aim.

[Sledgecrushr]

Mattocks are better

[Wahooo]

Mattocks are better

I honestly REALLY don't like semi-auto on both mouse buttons at the same time. Screws up my already mediocre aim. Especially when talking slugs and a little bit of distance. If as I mentioned mattocks had an accuracy buff for the slugs it would be a tougher choice for me personally.

[GreyFrog]

Believe Mattocks give you both better accuracy and higher velocity?

Personally taken out infantry at 90m with slug mattocks. Needed a whole clips but its fairly reliable out to a massive range (for NC MAX)

[bites]

Believe Mattocks give you both better accuracy and higher velocity?

Personally taken out infantry at 90m with slug mattocks. Needed a whole clips but its fairly reliable out to a massive range (for NC MAX)

I do the same on a regular basis, but never run without slugs.

Hear the "ping" from a sniper, face the direction/spot him.
Crouch, squeeze both (if moving pull sequentially based on movement speed), pause for 1-2 seconds, pull again. Sleepy time for the sniper.

I get a lot of tells with "wow surprised you could do that" or "that was a really interesting way to use those" from opposing factions on a regular basis (and I of course thank them for their sacrifice to my sweet MAX gods).

Sure this got harder with the nerfs a while ago .. but its no where near impossible (wish there was a range kill stat ... would debunk this in a heartbeat).

[GreyFrog]

You have to see where they were on the mini-map and then put your waypoint on it to find distance. Only possible if you are getting belted from multiple enemies :)

[bites]

You have to see where they were on the mini-map and then put your waypoint on it to find distance. Only possible if you are getting belted from multiple enemies :)

Nah sorry I meant more "After the fact" eg ... in kill stats/board listed range killed at.

In game ... I use my eyeballs to measure distance, getting a slide rule out for killing a mofo is a bit overkill :P

[Illtempered]

I've been using mattock and default scat with extended-mags and slugs on my NC alt for a long time now. If I have a particularly long shot to make, I'll just tap a couple from the mattock into them. I get lots of hate-tells during biofarms on that alt, especially when I'm running around on the rooftops owning light-assaults.

[Phreec]

I'd be interested in seeing how Nanoewave and Kinetic Armor 5 affect those numbers.

[mrmrmrj]

Welcome to last Feb.

NC MAXes have changed a lot since Feb. The patch notes never talked about how slugs were or were not affected.

[KesTro]

Once flamethrowers come out and every faction can excel in CQC I want to see where they plan to take the NC MAX.

[mrmrmrj]

What I really don't get is how NC MAXes are supposed to be the CQC masters, but I am MUCH more lethal in CQC when I play my TR character with completely uncerted Mutilators compared to my Hacksaws with 2000 certs (dual slugs, dual extended mags) invested. If you care, go look up Golfclap on Waterson. Last night, I killed 13 VS in 3 minutes at an Amp Station without ever having to reload and without locking down. I did the same thing a few nights ago as well. This has never happened in my Hacksaw MAX and Mutilators are not even the best MAX AI weapon. Plus, Mutilators are reasonably lethal at range.

I don't have a good idea to fix this because my NC MAX already kills in two shots which is very powerful. It is just that those shots HAVE to hit and the small clips make a miss very costly because reload times suck. I think NC MAXes should have much shorter reload to offset the tiny magazines vs TRs 100/700.

[ChipMHazard]

Reintroduce different chokes for all of the scattercannons and remove slug rounds. This should make it easier to balance the weapons at different ranges.
SOE will never be able to balance the current version.

[Dodgy Commando]

Reintroduce different chokes for all of the scattercannons and remove slug rounds. This should make it easier to balance the weapons at different ranges.
SOE will never be able to balance the current version.

I would love for that to happen. Bring back a mechanic that was really fun and interesting.

But how would you balance it? It would effectively be combining the extra range from slugs with the default buckshot in PS2 terms, no?

-e-
Quote for new page.

[ChipMHazard]

I would love for that to happen. Bring back a mechanic that was really fun and interesting.

But how would you balance it? It would effectively be combining the extra range from slugs with the default buckshot in PS2 terms, no?

-e-
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Good question. Would be easier with just one weapon to worry about, but what I'm thinking is something along the lines of this:
Close range: Most damage, slowest ROF, smallest magazine size and most spread.
Medium range: Average in every aspect.
Long range: Least damage, highest ROF, biggest magazine size and no spread. Basicly just slugs.
Have a delay between switching from one choke to another. Have the ammo either be common pool or converted when selecting different chokes (For example: Either have the ammo be a flat say 105 or 15 using the 1st, 21 using 2nd and 35 using 3rd.

In terms of TTK, the first choke should be at least 3 hits to kill an infiltrator and 4 to kill any other class. Just spitballing here, but basicly make it less effective up close than it is now in exchange for more versatility.
Could make the 2nd choke deal the most damage of the three, while still not being able to instagib infantry, and have the first one be there as more of an area of effect weapon.

When it comes to the different variations on the scattercannon. What about limiting some of them to only two of the three chokes while performing better in each than the default scattercannon?
One problem would of course be, how would you manage changing chokes if your scattercannons don't have the same chokes?

[mrmrmrj]

The point really is that all the MAXes as they currently exist are deadly against infantry at close range. This is as it should be. The issue is that the NC lose effectiveness at range much faster than the other two empires, but they cannot be given better close range effectiveness because it is already almost instagib.

The answer may be to scrap the 3 versions of shotgun and replace them with a shotgun version (Mattock spread with full auto, small clip or a submachine gun variant) and new mid and long range options designed around other NC HA archetypes. For instance, take the NC6 Gauss SAW baseline and juice it up for MAX use. I also don't understand why only one of the NC options is full auto (and it must be purchased) while all the TR and VS options are full auto. AI MAXes should be full auto.

[Dodgy Commando]

I see where you want to go with this ChipMHazard, although I would do it the other way around:
The first choke has bigger area and faster fire rate, while the long-range choke has the slower rate of fire (second choke somewhere in between).

Not for nostalgia's sake, but rather because it just makes sense. You're up close and personal, you want to pump the guy full of lead as fast as possible. Longer ranges require more careful aiming.

For the actual values, as you say we have all sorts of variants we can derive from the basic Scattercannon (were it to be our default all-rounder). Some would be better up close in terms of damage but less potent at range as a result; and vice versa for a seperate variant (e.g. Mattock). Other variants could have more ammo per clip; a better fire rate at all chokes; no intermediary choke (or even one of the other chokes, super specialised); and so on.

The end result is that whatever the cannon, you could still maintain some versatility at ranges where the other MAXes were dominating the NC MAX. The distinct difference is that the spread of the pellets changes as well as the damage, reducing the severe loss of effectiveness beyond a short range the current NC MAX suffers. Of course a reduction in the close-range lethality (which could interest quite a few it would seem) would also be part of the process.

-e-
Oops, took a while to type. Thread changed a bit.

Sure mrmrmrj, I am also open to drastically simplyfying the NC MAXes weapons by having a less specialised weapon type to begin with (i.e. HMG). However, I don't see why we can't keep the shotgun with a little bit of work. Its definitely more NC that way (not that hard-hitting gauss weapons wouldn't be, mind).

Indeed the implementation of the mechanic would be difficult. Couple the two arms so that they are always on the same choke together (might be good for balance anyway?). Then you only need to use your 'switch fire rate' keybind to change chokes.

[GreyFrog]

Its still would be cried about though. What you are suggesting is ONE weapon on the NC MAX that is great at all ranges.

I'd simply suggest taking the existing weapons and making them operate on the same mechanics. Give Hacksaws 10 rounds default (15 with ext-mags), 4 shots to kill infantry etc. Push Scattercannons into the mid range option and pump them up to 20/30 rounds and Mattocks in the long range with 35/45 or similar. Remove slug options. Make all shotguns auto.

This brings the weapons in line with other factions like TR's Onslaughts/Mutilators/Mercies for close/mid/ranged engagements.

Like the idea though, someone send this to the devs.

[Dodgy Commando]

@GreyFrog
The idea isn't to make it super uber at all ranges, but that it gets to be somewhat similarly effective as the other MAXes at all the other ranges they fight at, not just CQB.

The only possible issue I see with your solution is that the close range option (Hacksaws) would face the same issues the current NC Max has to deal with in terms of effectiveness at range not being on par with the other factions' MAXes.

Other than that, it would definitely be a simpler way to attempt to resolve some of the NC MAX's issues.

[Mustakrakish]

I'd be really interested to see how our MAX (and all shotguns for that matter) performs if each shot had a higher pellet count but lower damage per pellet.

Theoretically the damage at close range would be roughly the same, but improve your ability to deal damage reliably at 20+ meters.

[Mordelicius]

Once flamethrowers come out and every faction can excel in CQC I want to see where they plan to take the NC MAX.

My guess, they will eventually give the NC Max a long range weapons like Railguns. NC are deficient on long range viability. Both VS and TR Max are excellent in infantry supression from far away. And when Maxes are stacked, then you're pretty much screwed. Whereas, NC has to be close to the doors to be as effective, making them very vulnerable to grenades, C4s and rocket launchers.

Did anyone see the NUC video where they were playing NC on the Nexus, defending a room against the Vanu? I was grinning all the way while watching it :lol:.