Are there any plans to rework the beach buggies?

[Babyfark McGeez]

Because those seemed REALLY fucked up when i last tried PS2.

Who thought it would be a great idea to have a vehicle, that:

- Is as fast as an ATV
- Can be repaired WHILE DRIVING IT
- Can be mounted with one of the many one-hit rocket/grenade weapons

With 2 people you never need to stop and can take out pretty much everything. That vehicle really seemed to go against common sense when i played. I wondered why anyone even bothered to pull a tank instead. I sure didn't.

[GreyFrog]

They tweaked all the AV weapons, the saron and enforcer no longer 1hit infantry.

Halberd still does though.

Harassers are still better than lightnings IMO.

[camycamera]

i LOVE the harasser as it is, it is by far my most favourite ground vehicle to play in (i am usually the gunner :P). it really shows how good teamwork pays off. when they eventually re-vamp the vehicles, they should make them more teamwork-orientated, for example for the tanks, it should be like PS1; 1 main gunner, 1 driver, and 1 secondary gunner. although, personally i think it would be cool also to allow infantry to ride on the sides of the tank, and possibly be able to repair it as it goes along :P

anyway, there have been no plans to re-work it as of yet, although i think ground vehicle physics need a re-work as a whole.

you know there is something wrong with your game when an infantry man can walk up a will effortlessly, while a tank cant. and also... so.... much.... SLIDING..... and flipping.

[KesTro]

The thing about harassers is that it's a MUCH larger cert dump to get to that OP state than it is with a lightning or MBT.

Now that being said I do think it's a little too strong once they added the faction specific weapons to them. It's an NS vehicle but there's nothing we can do about that now. My best advice to you? Shoot the damn things. You wouldn't think it but infantry fire in groups can do a serious number on these things even with the 20% reduction from damage that max composite gives them.

[PredatorFour]

The TR's Vulcan is the stand out performer for harrassers. Anyone who plays the game can see that. A machine gun that can take out anything, at range. But yeh they don't like machine gun fire particularly rotary nose gun fire:)

[Plaqueis]

The TR's Vulcan is the stand out performer for harrassers. Anyone who plays the game can see that. A machine gun that can take out anything, at range. But yeh they don't like machine gun fire particularly rotary nose gun fire:)

^This. I freaking hate that thing whneever i try tanking... all you hear is faint engine sound when it closes in, then Vulcan goes *brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrt* while it runs circles around you, and then the tank blows up before you can do anything about it.

[PredatorFour]

It has a funny sound to it. Reminds me of a hammer drill... an op one at that. One that can knock down a wall in 4 seconds, from 20 m away:)

[Artimus]

Shoot them on site, no matter the weapon.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 4

[GreyFrog]

Yeah small arms fire here is key, lots of people fumble for something explosive and the harasser is gone before they get a chance.

[Kalee J]

Yeah small arms fire here is key, lots of people fumble for something explosive and the harasser is gone before they get a chance.

I'm guilty of this myself. Since it's a vehicle my first reaction is to pull out a rocket launcher. I just need to dicipline myself to just shoot the damn thing.

Coordinated Harraser Packs are a scary thing to behold.

[Babyfark McGeez]

Hmmm, guess we should get that word out more then because when a vulcan harasser shows up i usually see my fellow vanus run like headless chicken. :p

Gotta try firearms more myself too, unfortunately i normally run around with a lasher which doesn't really seem like the best option there.

Besides that i still think that the combination of the high speed and the avaible weapons are too much. It would be another thing if the vehicles wouldn't be made out of papermache, but as it is the agility and damage is just not in line with the other vehicles.

The absolute no-go is repairing while driving though. It doesn't make any logical sense and just feels wrong in every way. It stretched my suspension of disbelief so far i actually thought it's a bug at first.
Overall it basically adds more HP to a vehicle and reduces downtime. Also as it is now it is another perk only the buggy has. And it allready has enough going for it as it is.

[Crator]

There is one thing to be said about the 3rd back seat though. You can easily get shot sitting back there.

[snafus]

Team work is OP.

[GreyFrog]

I think the harasser is fine it simply requires some thought to counter.

Most harassers run flack and turbo. Best bet in another vehicle is to try and pin them, knock them of course and just slow them down so you can land some shots. Splashing near them will do SFA because of the flack but iirc direct hits are not mitigated by flack armour.

As infantry 3 heavies with LMGs will burn through a harasser quick enough, you guys should be rolling in squads so focus firing shouldnt be a problem.

If you don't roll in a squad don't complain about not having a counter for any vehicle. One man shouldn't be able to kill a vehicle, especially one that has 2+ crew.

[Plaqueis]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dGxYX2xyNG53TERHRjk3a2xTS21JR 2c&usp=sharing

Numbers tell the story, huge difference in their performance. I'm not surprised TR players are loving the thing and saying buggies are just fine.

[GreyFrog]

Hmm I love my Halberd, Enforcer and M40 harasser on my NC toon.

The Vulcan and Marauder are awesome on my TR toon.

I also dig the saron the couple of times I've pubbed gunned on my VS alt as well.

There is certainly a mismatch in kills but at the same time I see a lot less enemy harassers with Empire specific weapons and a lot of the ones I do see are driven poorly.

[Plaqueis]

There is certainly a mismatch in kills but at the same time I see a lot less enemy harassers with Empire specific weapons and a lot of the ones I do see are driven poorly.

Yah, that must be it. Only TR knows how to use their weapons. Right.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dGN1M3BvY19kQkZNMmxpOENCRnBvR 0E&usp=sharing

Lol.

[Whiteagle]

Yah, that must be it. Only TR knows how to use their weapons. Right.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dGN1M3BvY19kQkZNMmxpOENCRnBvR 0E&usp=sharing

Lol.
Generally, yeah...
The PPA is a sniper Grenade Launcher, not a roll up and spam weapon, while the damn C85 Modified is a SHOTGUN!

Of course the Marauder-H is going to have the most kills...

Plus if you look at the number of Average Uniques, the TR have nearly 3-4 times the number of ES-Harrasser weapons fielded then the other two.

[mrmrmrj]

Of course they have more in the field. Because their gun kills effectively.

[GreyFrog]

@plaquies - Have a discussion, don't be an internet tough guy. I never claimed that only TR could aim, only that I don't often see ES harassers on Briggs. They are mainly basilisk and for some strange reason bulldog.

The Marauder is a beast, no doubt, but the M40 is very similar but I never see it used against the TR.
Up close and brawling the Vulcan is a beast, but the enforcer in the mid-ranges is fantastic too. I haven't had much experience using the Saron but it appears you can dump the magazine so I imagine it should excel up close as well. Certainly wrecks me if a Saron harasser jumps my tank/sundie.

For pure AV I don't think you can beat a reload speed certed Halberd, especially if used from a distance.

Vulcan really does need it TTK on armor brought in line with the Saron and Enforcer, at this stage I think its about 1 second quicker. Having played both M40 and Marauder harassers and loving them both I don't see a problem there. There is no doubt that the C-85 is a POS.

No matter what empire you play for the Harasser has some fantastic guns. Some people just seem to think "Vulcan is OP, therefore I won't pull a Harasser" when the reality is you can still cause havoc with your ES gear.

[mrmrmrj]

You can cause havoc just running infantry down.

[Whiteagle]

Of course they have more in the field. Because their gun kills effectively.
No, it's because our ES weapons are "spam it in the general direction of the Enemy..."

Again, I love the PPA, but it's a Suppression-type explosive launcher like the Lasher.
You can't use it like a Marauder, because it isn't a close range weapon!

[Crator]

You can cause havoc just running infantry down.

One thing that really annoys me about them is they are too quite. They don't make enough sound to hear them coming.

[KesTro]

Gotta try firearms more myself too, unfortunately i normally run around with a lasher which doesn't really seem like the best option there.

Actually if I'm not mistaken if you get a hit on the harasser with the lasher not only does it do direct damage but it also does explosive damage. This is the case with MAX's anyhow I'm not sure if this would differ with vehicles.

[Plaqueis]

Generally, yeah...
The PPA is a sniper Grenade Launcher, not a roll up and spam weapon, while the damn C85 Modified is a SHOTGUN!

Of course the Marauder-H is going to have the most kills...

Plus if you look at the number of Average Uniques, the TR have nearly 3-4 times the number of ES-Harrasser weapons fielded then the other two.

You lost all credibility with 'Generally, yeah...' You actually believe that people that decide to play TR are somehow just better at playing the game and using their weapons? Lmao.

Of course they have more in the field. Because their gun kills effectively.

^There's the answer to that one.

@plaquies - Have a discussion, don't be an internet tough guy. I never claimed that only TR could aim, only that I don't often see ES harassers on Briggs. They are mainly basilisk and for some strange reason bulldog.

The Marauder is a beast, no doubt, but the M40 is very similar but I never see it used against the TR.
Up close and brawling the Vulcan is a beast, but the enforcer in the mid-ranges is fantastic too. I haven't had much experience using the Saron but it appears you can dump the magazine so I imagine it should excel up close as well. Certainly wrecks me if a Saron harasser jumps my tank/sundie.

For pure AV I don't think you can beat a reload speed certed Halberd, especially if used from a distance.

Vulcan really does need it TTK on armor brought in line with the Saron and Enforcer, at this stage I think its about 1 second quicker. Having played both M40 and Marauder harassers and loving them both I don't see a problem there. There is no doubt that the C-85 is a POS.

No matter what empire you play for the Harasser has some fantastic guns. Some people just seem to think "Vulcan is OP, therefore I won't pull a Harasser" when the reality is you can still cause havoc with your ES gear.

1st of all, i'm not being 'an internet tough guy'. I just hate even the implications that your 'chosen side' somehow defines your skill as a player. No the fuck it doesn't. I've played multiplayer games for 20 years, right from 'the start of Internet' and some LAN parties before that. Gamers are exactly the same, no matter the game or 'side' they play.

Secondly Fury is a NS weapon, it has no place in this comparison since every faction can use it.

Thirdly, PPA-H is supposed to be Marauders 'equivalent' (like C-85), but as the stats show, they're nowhere near as good, not even in the same ballpark. And please don't say people don't use them properly.. people tried, saw they failed in comparison and most quit using them. Very simple really.

Then we come to the subject in hand. After the nerf (that came within what, 2 weeks of the weaponset introduction?), the Saron has been just another disappointment. You can hit targets in the distance with single aimed shots easily, and that's about all you can do. You will not have time to get enough rounds in to actually cause considerable damage, unless some noob decides to not move when being fired at. If you dump the whopping 6 round magazine, you wont hit the broadside of a barn thats not within 20 meters. And that's when you're standing still, go try shooting from a speeding and jumping Harrasser.

I haven't used any of the NC gear, but the stats suggest that they're performing even worse (no surprises there).

Then again, i don't play on Briggs, i play on Cobalt. We've been having constant approx 15% TR population advantage for quite a while now. Wanna guess why that is? If not, i'll be happy to inform...

[GreyFrog]

1st of all, i'm not being 'an internet tough guy'. I just hate even the implications that your 'chosen side' somehow defines your skill as a player. No the fuck it doesn't. I've played multiplayer games for 20 years, right from 'the start of Internet' and some LAN parties before that. Gamers are exactly the same, no matter the game or 'side' they play.


At what point in this discussion have I ever suggested that the other factions can't aim? Have less skill?


Secondly Fury is a NS weapon, it has no place in this comparison since every faction can use it.

Thirdly, PPA-H is supposed to be Marauders 'equivalent' (like C-85), but as the stats show, they're nowhere near as good, not even in the same ballpark. And please don't say people don't use them properly.. people tried, saw they failed in comparison and most quit using them. Very simple really.


Actually this is where I believe this discussion goes wrong. Comparing the Marauder, PPA and C-85 to each other is terrible. Grenade launcher vs energy balls vs shotgun??? They are all very different weapons and should be effective in extremely different circumstances. The fact that the PPA and C-85 are shit doesn't mean the Marauder needs a nerf, it means they need to be fixed/buffed.

Marauder vs M40 comparison makes sense. Once you've pimped the magazine size on both these weapons and whacked thermals on I find them both extremely effective. For me the little bit of extra splash of the M40 makes up for the 5 less rounds. If you are bitching about the Marauder, stop, strap a M40 on your harasser and enjoy a very similar weapon.




Then we come to the subject in hand. After the nerf (that came within what, 2 weeks of the weaponset introduction?), the Saron has been just another disappointment. You can hit targets in the distance with single aimed shots easily, and that's about all you can do. You will not have time to get enough rounds in to actually cause considerable damage, unless some noob decides to not move when being fired at. If you dump the whopping 6 round magazine, you wont hit the broadside of a barn thats not within 20 meters. And that's when you're standing still, go try shooting from a speeding and jumping Harrasser.


So the Saron can snipe and dump its magazine up close? It sounds good to me *shrug*
725dmg per shot
I assume you can cert it to 11 rounds in a magazine (confirm this for me?) But most people would go 10.
Reality is I can't really comment on the Saron as I don't know, but it seems like a good weapon on paper. The enforcer is a great gun on the harasser, but its very similar to the Halberd and as the Halberd can OHK infantry I personally prefer that.

You've always had to slow down to land shots with a harasser, even with the Vulcan. I've found that it generally doesn't matter whether they're running saron/vulcan/halberd/enforcer the harasser will generally fuck things up.

Personally I don't believe ES weapons should be functionally consistent, otherwise they become bland replicas of each other. This will mean they are hard to balance and that they are going to be effective in different situations.

I think the Marauder is fine. The PPA needs some minor tweaks and the C-85 needs a complete overhaul.

The Vulcan-H needs its CoF adjusted so you hit less when moving in a harasser. I'd make the Enforcer automatic so it can dump its clip. Not sure about the Saron, give it two extra rounds stock?

Generally I'd make it so the harasser needed to stop to repair OR had less HP instead.

[Plaqueis]

At what point in this discussion have I ever suggested that the other factions can't aim? Have less skill?

I see a lot less enemy harassers with Empire specific weapons and a lot of the ones I do see are driven poorly.

Sorry if i misunderstood you, but this seemed to me that you ment people haven't tried/don't know how to use their weapons.

Actually this is where I believe this discussion goes wrong. Comparing the Marauder, PPA and C-85 to each other is terrible. Grenade launcher vs energy balls vs shotgun??? They are all very different weapons and should be effective in extremely different circumstances. The fact that the PPA and C-85 are shit doesn't mean the Marauder needs a nerf, it means they need to be fixed/buffed.

Again, no. Those weapons are all ment to be an equal group. They should excel on different things but on large scale they're ment to be equal. They're obviously not. I don't care about buffs or nerfs, i care about equal chance on large scale, regardless what the specific weapon is good at. It's quite obvious that Marauder is quite a killer and the other 2 are not, as shown by stats. Even if the Marauder was purely an infantry killer and the other 2 were purely AA guns for example, the difference in kills is still way too large.

Marauder vs M40 comparison makes sense. Once you've pimped the magazine size on both these weapons and whacked thermals on I find them both extremely effective. For me the little bit of extra splash of the M40 makes up for the 5 less rounds. If you are bitching about the Marauder, stop, strap a M40 on your harasser and enjoy a very similar weapon.

Again, no. Fury isn't an empire specific weapon, all others are. How would you have felt like if i had been here defending the un-nerfed Saron by saying "spawn an Halberd, it's pretty much the same thing, only not.."?

So the Saron can snipe and dump its magazine up close? It sounds good to me *shrug*
725dmg per shot
I assume you can cert it to 11 rounds in a magazine (confirm this for me?) But most people would go 10.
Reality is I can't really comment on the Saron as I don't know, but it seems like a good weapon on paper. The enforcer is a great gun on the harasser, but its very similar to the Halberd and as the Halberd can OHK infantry I personally prefer that.

You've always had to slow down to land shots with a harasser, even with the Vulcan. I've found that it generally doesn't matter whether they're running saron/vulcan/halberd/enforcer the harasser will generally fuck things up.

Personally I don't believe ES weapons should be functionally consistent, otherwise they become bland replicas of each other. This will mean they are hard to balance and that they are going to be effective in different situations.

I think the Marauder is fine. The PPA needs some minor tweaks and the C-85 needs a complete overhaul.

The Vulcan-H needs its CoF adjusted so you hit less when moving in a harasser. I'd make the Enforcer automatic so it can dump its clip. Not sure about the Saron, give it two extra rounds stock?

Generally I'd make it so the harasser needed to stop to repair OR had less HP instead.

Did you not understand what i wrote? If you dump the Sarons clip, apart from maybe first round you wont hit nothing, plain and simple. And again, shooting from far is useless, you wont have time to land enough rounds to actually damage anything.
No, you can't cert up the magazine size, 6 is all you will have regardless the spent certs. You can cert up sights, the reload speed and ammo capacity. That's it. Sights are pretty much useless (magnification wont help due the pathetic rendering distance (applies to every weapon in game), NV got nerfed useless, no real use for thermals either), reload speed is the only thing that might actually help since i doubt you'll live long enough to enjoy up-certed ammocapacity.

Saron might look good on paper (it actually was before the nerf.. wish they had instead just given NC something as good) but it really isn't, again as shown by its stats.

I'm only asking for balanced game, that's all. I can play the game as it is, it's just not as much fun as it could be. I can only imagine how NC guys must feel when looking at Maradines stats on certain weapons.

[GreyFrog]

Ah by driven poorly I meant taking something like a Halberd or enforcer into a brawl with a Vulcan. You have a harasser, dictate the best engagement range for the weapon. This is hardly the gunners fault though.

Vulcan can't hit things outside medium range(100m?). Up close in 10-30m range you can dump a clip and hit 80-90% of the rounds, I assumed the Saron was similar. Do you really miss most of the rounds if you go full auto in close quarters? Thats retarded. Explains why the decent VS outfit harassers are mainly Halberd on Briggs I suppose.

No I don't mind the Halberd Saron(pre-nerf) argument as its exactly what TR would have needed to do and still is. If you want a ranged AV weapon you pull a Halberd.

For me I don't need an equivalent ES weapon, it makes things bland.

Easy for a TR player to say I suppose, we have CQ beast of a weapon and there really is no equivalent for anyone else. Saron should be this weapon for the VS though.

[Plaqueis]

Ah by driven poorly I meant taking something like a Halberd or enforcer into a brawl with a Vulcan. You have a harasser, dictate the best engagement range for the weapon. This is hardly the gunners fault though.

Vulcan can't hit things outside medium range(100m?). Up close in 10-30m range you can dump a clip and hit 80-90% of the rounds, I assumed the Saron was similar. Do you really miss most of the rounds if you go full auto in close quarters? Thats retarded. Explains why the decent VS outfit harassers are mainly Halberd on Briggs I suppose.

No I don't mind the Halberd Saron(pre-nerf) argument as its exactly what TR would have needed to do and still is. If you want a ranged AV weapon you pull a Halberd.

For me I don't need an equivalent ES weapon, it makes things bland.

Easy for a TR player to say I suppose, we have CQ beast of a weapon and there really is no equivalent for anyone else. Saron should be this weapon for the VS though.

Like i said, if you drive and park within 20 meters of the target, (that's just suicidal), you might get all 6 rounds dumped on target. Problem is you will still not kill it (well, maybe if it's an uncerted Lightning and you're shooting on its ass at 90 degree angle, cant say as i havent tried), and you can be damn sure you will not get more shots on it after reloading and running for your life...

As for the Saron/Vulcan/Halberd thing; you have an option. You can choose Vulcan and go up close and personal or spawn an Halberd and snipe from far away. Either VS or NC don't; we can spawn Halberd and snipe, or in VS case spawn Saron and do the exact same thing, with most likely less success. I have no clue if NC can do even that, as i haven't tried their weapons, but again judging by stats, their chances are even worse.

[GreyFrog]

I'm so curious about the Saron now I'm going to cert one out :D

[Babyfark McGeez]

With the projectile and crosshair the saron allways feels like a sniper rifle kind of weapon to me, which i find hard to utilize when driving at 200 kph. I actually prefer a proton on my harasser since it seems more "sprayable" for drive-by action.

Also having played a bit more over the last days the beach buggies lost a tad bit of that "OP" feel. If the ES weapons would be brought in line more and the silly repairing-while-driving would be removed they would be completely fine with me.

Edit: About the lasher vs. harasser, it does hit quite well but it's just firing too slow to be really effective imo. I made myself an "anti buggy" loadout with the standard heavy gun (orion?) and the lancer which seems to work better (for me atleast).