Moving props / objects

[Babyfark McGeez]

Something i only realized just now; There is not a single moving object in this game, only animated textures. Does anyone know if that is another thing this engine can't do right now? It would explain why we don't have doors or elevators...or anything else that moves for that matter.
Also did they add volumes (water, lava, etc.) by now? Does hossin have real water?

[Hirvox]

No. Just like the water on Amerish, the water on Hossin is just a plane of water texture that you can pass through without any effects.

[Babyfark McGeez]

:rolleyes: Thanks for the info.

[Sledgecrushr]

Im pretty sure that there are some draw bridges on Hossin.

[MrMak]

One of the deves explained it in response to one of the (OVER 9000) questiobn about doors. A moving object like an automated door is technicaly an NPC. NPCs lower the number of players in the area before the server starts having problems.

Still I dont think limited number in key areas would cause any significan issues. Though until lan animated object does somethign that cant be done with energy shields it will probably not happen any time soon.

[Ruffdog]

Pretty sure the only thing that moves is the sun.

[KarrdeBRBU]

Pretty sure the only thing that moves is the sun.

That's a shader though (albeit probably a more complicated than average one)

[BlaxicanX]

... That is actually mildly disturbing.

I'd never really considered how much they had to sacrifice in order to get this many players on one service. Even with today's technology. That's crazy.

[AThreatToYou]

Dropping 10 players from the max for 5 or so doors in a render area would be, well, worth it.

Considering the difference however, I'd say we would need to drop about 120-250 from the max in order to implement 3-5 doors in every base.

I am taking about a wild a guess as a cave-man saying the world is flat.

[Sirisian]

There is a rotating radar dish in the sanctuaries. It has no physics on the extended arms and is just a cylinder. On Nexus the same radar exists, but it's no longer rotating.

[Babyfark McGeez]

I never noticed the rotating dish, will check it out.

But i did notice that the lack of anything moving is adding to the overall sterile and lifeless feel of the world. This thing needs immersion so badly;

- Emotes (voice macro + animation)
- Moving props
- Real continents (no out of bounds areas)
- A home sanctuary
- Faction related propaganda

If we would have all of the above, i would say, yes, this is a "MMO"-fps.

EDIT: I checked out the (VS) warpgates on all continents, and while there is a radar-like looking installation on indar (not on the other two though), it does not move and is just a simple prop. So once more, there is not a single moving object in this game.

[Carbon Copied]

One of the deves explained it in response to one of the (OVER 9000) questiobn about doors. A moving object like an automated door is technicaly an NPC. NPCs lower the number of players in the area before the server starts having problems.

Still I dont think limited number in key areas would cause any significan issues. Though until lan animated object does somethign that cant be done with energy shields it will probably not happen any time soon.

The door argument I think is stringy and weak there have to be ways round it like butchering the generator/shield entities and triggers; trigger door control panel (it's only a model change) set up in similar "hack hold use" then the linked "shield" is just more opaque and it maybe fizzles out differently or something.

I'm just curious though how a prop that's animated on a set looped script and requires no interaction with the player be considered an NPC? It's an animated model on a skeleton.

[Babyfark McGeez]

VERY good point carbon.

When done like you said there would not even be a prop/mesh involved; A simple texture and two panels on both sides which trigger the "can move through" flag for a set amount of time. Basically slightly modified "mini shield gens" connected to "mini shields".

I also didn't really get the npc argument, maybe something got lost there when the dev tried to simplify it. From a mapping perspective that doesn't really make much sense.

Maybe such a simple, good idea like carbons just didn't occur to the devs? Or their "dumb it down" policy stricly forbids the use of such elaborate elements like doors.

[camycamera]

i think that the optimisation patches will very much help to make these things possible with little-to-no sacrifices possible.

but by what carbon said, there would be no problems made by adding doors if we did it like how generators are made.

[AThreatToYou]

Doors have to make decisions, checked by the server. In this way, they are NPCs because the door has an AI. It has to make decisions about players in a zone, friendly or enemy, how long no players have been in the zone, whether or not the door is hacked or destroyed or not powered and et cetera. Another huge problem with doors is that they are on the server, and WILL cause desync issues between players.

Other kinds of moving objects, as long as it isn't something that has to make decisions, shouldn't have an AI and thus aren't anything like NPCs.

[Babyfark McGeez]

Doors have to make decisions, checked by the server. In this way, they are NPCs because the door has an AI. It has to make decisions about players in a zone, friendly or enemy, how long no players have been in the zone, whether or not the door is hacked or destroyed or not powered and et cetera. Another huge problem with doors is that they are on the server, and WILL cause desync issues between players.

Other kinds of moving objects, as long as it isn't something that has to make decisions, shouldn't have an AI and thus aren't anything like NPCs.

That makes a little more sense. But the only decision a door has to make is wether to open or not, depending on the faction owning the door and the player trying to open it (either via a panel or for an automatic door in a certain distance). A simple "check". Add two more checks for "facility powered?" and "door hacked?" and you have all you need. The time the door stays open or hacked is set.
That's basically the same check/reaction a terminal makes when you try to use it. Only that after passing the check, instead of the loadout-screen popping up, the door opens.

The only problem i could see here would be with automatic doors and a high population so that these checks would happen so often that it would affect the performance. But that's really stretching it.

[IceyCold]

Doors have to make decisions, checked by the server. In this way, they are NPCs because the door has an AI. It has to make decisions about players in a zone, friendly or enemy, how long no players have been in the zone, whether or not the door is hacked or destroyed or not powered and et cetera. Another huge problem with doors is that they are on the server, and WILL cause desync issues between players.

Other kinds of moving objects, as long as it isn't something that has to make decisions, shouldn't have an AI and thus aren't anything like NPCs.

Honestly I think you are over thinking the doors thing. They really would act no different than the control points.

The Control Points already identify which faction you are and react to you entering the area around them. It's a simple trigger from what I can tell.

I think the area you bolded is the real issue for SOE. Doors desync and could cause issues. Hell look at Planetside, the doors would be open for one person, closed for another. I cant tell you how many times I got shot through a door that was still closed on my screen.

All that said, I would honestly love to have doors back.

And some better base design in general lol.

[MrMak]

Also on animated props. There are moving vent fans on the structures built into the canyon wall at Feldspar Canyon Base.

[AThreatToYou]

That makes a little more sense. But the only decision a door has to make is wether to open or not, depending on the faction owning the door and the player trying to open it (either via a panel or for an automatic door in a certain distance). A simple "check". Add two more checks for "facility powered?" and "door hacked?" and you have all you need. The time the door stays open or hacked is set.
That's basically the same check/reaction a terminal makes when you try to use it. Only that after passing the check, instead of the loadout-screen popping up, the door opens.

The only problem i could see here would be with automatic doors and a high population so that these checks would happen so often that it would affect the performance. But that's really stretching it.

That isn't stretching it at all. Of course the doors can be done, but I have heard it be cited that adding more CPs can be an issue when it comes to rendering players.

I want doors but I want them done right, as I'm sure all of us do. I'm just trying to help you understand why they might not have done doors yet.

Alternatively, and probably the best route, is to have door position checks done on the client and then sent to the server to verify and then open the door. The server doesn't need to have the box or radius to check for players in, all it needs to do is verify 1 check for the door to open and verify a check for the door to close. All the other not-so-intense doohacks like door panels and power can be done on the server since that's as simple as timed cl_ flags. But what do I know?

Now, as far as moving props goes, like conveyor belts and the like.. they are very simple on the client and server so long as you can't collide with the moving parts as if they were moving. The collision box on them is either static or nonexistent, or else it takes up (potentially) more power than a tank moving.

[NewSith]

The only real reason doors don't exist in PS2 is because they are "old school". Just think about how rare a modern MP game that still has doors is... while it still has sentry turrets and similar stuff.

NPC thing is a lame argument, I just simply don't believe it. Forgelight is supposed to be an engine for EQN, a game built around NPCs. Do you honestly think that the engine is supposed to suffer performance issues from NPC overabundancy?

[Crator]

NPC thing is a lame argument, I just simply don't believe it. Forgelight is supposed to be an engine for EQN, a game built around NPCs. Do you honestly think that the engine is supposed to suffer performance issues from NPC overabundancy?

Are they trying to cram hundreds of players in the same area in EQN?

[NewSith]

Are they trying to cram hundreds of players in the same area in EQN?

I somehow doubt that server really cares if 100 people have same XYZ coordinates or different, since it has to calculate for them all anyway.

[AThreatToYou]

The only real reason doors don't exist in PS2 is because they are "old school". Just think about how rare a modern MP game that still has doors is... while it still has sentry turrets and similar stuff.


/thread

[Dodgy Commando]

BF4 is bringing them back... a little bit.

How about making them incredibly simple using the door as a texture idea posted earlier, even if a bit silly considering this is the future.

You have a control panel that is tied to the faction owning the facility. Same-faction players can activate it instantaneously, opening the door for x amount of time before it closes. Players on the enemy faction can hack the control panel, requiring more time before using the door. That is all it does, no proximity checks whatsoever.

I'm no designer/programmer obviously, but the control panel should be disabled for interaction until the door is closed again. Obviously this isn't very ergonomic when you consider the sci-fi setting, having very silly doors that open and shut regardless of whether people are still attempting to cross them. But at least it might resolve the performance hit issues, while offering some form of security to facilities.

One issue here, is that even terminals sometimes take time to provide the interaction popup to access them in my case. You best not be in a hurry to open such a door! Also, this could be another reason for the lack of more equipment terminals in these huge facilities, because even something as simple as a terminal (or control panel) uses up precious performance.