Top players stacking in roflstomp outfits: possible issue?

[Rolfski]

One thing that worries me a bit about this game is that the competitive scene is already clearly splitting up the player/outfit base.

Outfit loyalty only goes so far when you're in for the win and I wouldn't be surprised to see all the top players eventually stacked up in only a handful of allstar outfits. Especially because alts allow them to stay with their original outfit.

This might going to hurt the competitive scene as there are probably not going to be enough allstar outfits to have a decent competition. It might actually going to hurt the vanilla game as well as regular outfits might end up avoiding frustrating battles altogether against these future roflstomp outfits.

Not sure how much of an issue this is really going to be and what can be done about it though: Maybe some future NFL-like draft system? ("worse" outfits get to pick players first at the beginning of the season)
I guess we will have to wait to see how this one plays out.

[PredatorFour]

Imo its a complete non-issue. There's a thing called 'loyalty', another called 'playing with friends'. While it's inevitable some players will get asked to join a leet outfit (as happened in ps1) i really think that most of the outfits will keep their players. Some of them have been playing together for years and years, why just leave now?

[AuntLou]

OK EVERYONE! Listen up! Drop from your outfit, we are going to repick teams!

[Rolfski]

Forget about this whole NFL draft system: It's probably a bad example for this game. However, there's no denying that many outfits become friends with each other over time and inter-outfit play and transfers become more fluent. My main BRTD outfit has already regular ops with players from outfits like Vanu Corporation, WASP and INI Elite, playing on our side and some of us have actually alts within these outfits.

The fact that you can create these alts is going to be a killer for this as it allows you to have the best of both worlds. One of our best players (a woman actually) switched to MercenaryS (NC outfit) and had her NC character leveled-up to BR 99 in just a few months. For top players, leveling up a new alt is really no issue and actually fun to do.

Community Clash has already changed their rules in order to prevent this somewhat.

[EVILPIG]

Bringing in a smaller competitive scene, where battles have no impact on the actual game is bad. Planetside is all about being out there in the Live environment. Who cares what a 12 v 12 or 48 v 48 results in, when your empire is on the Live server trying to get it done. I opposed the Battledomes in PS1 because they pull players off of the Live servers and that's what a competitive scene will do as well. Some teams that want to be "MLG" like will likely only really log in to practice or play the events. Planetside needs players on the battlefield, participating in the big picture.

As for All Star teams, the competitive scene will cause some of this and it will have some impact as it will draw some players out of outfits specifically to form up these teams. That's only natural. What's concerning is seeing these teams dedicate time to match preparation versus just playing the game. All Star teams happen, they were happening before the competitive scene for PS2 started. For example, Future Crew is comprised of many fragments of PS1 outfits from all three factions, most of which knew each other from Markov and Johari. They joined up with FC so that they had others, who they knew, to play with. So at it's core, FC is actually an All Star team of old school PS1 players and there's nothing wrong with that.

As mentioned above, I'm more concerned with the competitive scene's impact on in game numbers, by any team.

[maradine]

Were I to run an outfit (I do), and take significant time and resources to recruit what I feel are the best players (I don't), I'd be pretty pissed about someone telling me we're "too good" and need to be split up. This ain't xbox live - no one's entitled to a fair fight. Even if it means unfortunate roflstomping.

[Taramafor]

Speaking as someone that's joined an outfit before even getting on the game (having expressed a strong interest in teamplay) and having led a few times, I have to say it's a little silly to say the enemy is "too good" when you get stomped. When the Vanu push us back with overwhelming numbers I don't say they're too good. When the NC overwhelm us with superior tactics I don't say they're too good. What I tell myself is that we had a fight, we made plans and tried, we failed. Ok, what can I do so it doesn't happen again? Where did those guys at that place suddenly come from? Did we have enough numbers to hold out? These are the questions one must ask themselves after every fight in order to improve themselves. If you're getting stomped on really bad, all I can really say is fall back to the next base and do what you can to get backup over there, in or out of outfit. If you're getting stomped on really bad while the numbers are even however, it may be a case of not being good enough and having to improve your experience, which only comes with time, team work and planning.

That said the competitive scene can leave a bad taste in my mouth. I mean, what's the point of playing Starcraft if you're not as competitive as some others are? Fortunately, we're not stuck on a match making system and can fight any outfit we want at any time, even if it's not an official "match". TRG even participate in friendly fights with other outfits (like say fighting for a hill) but we're also very loyal to each other and play for the fun factor, not just the challenge. And if we come out on top and end up as the most well known outfit because we stomped on all the other outfits that came across us, we would have done it honestly and loyally, always side by side and never getting rid of someone because of competition or because X person is a bad player yet their light hearted mood sends moral through the roof which is a reason people get on. Case in point, it all comes down to the fun factor. However, don't make the mistake of thinking we won't be improving ourselves as part of that fun is trying to best the enemy. Sometimes some outfits might not have the numbers though, in which case, get hunting for members and hope they fit in.

Some do live for the challenge alone though, so if such outfits form up those teams that live only to win then good luck to them. Speaking as someone that knows they're not the best player in the game, I'm not going to complain when they stomp over me. It certainty won't stop me playing PS2 though.

[NewSith]

Sorry for my irony, but...

"Top players stacking in roflstomp outfits"
is just a remade
"More players stacking in bigger outfits"

problem that existed earlier. There is no solution to it, because:
A) It's hard to count true skill in a game without matches and with support roles being just as important as combat roles.
B) It's entirely up to the outfits to promote dedication and loyalty to said outfits.
C) Players stacking are not always "top", they up their play during playing with other skilled players. During my GA times I was a typical casual midskill player. Then I joined MCY and ended up in their primary team, since I developed my skill greatly by playing with them. Just like that.

[Phrygen]

Well i typed out a long response about this, as i have done on several other sites, but PSU decides to log out users if they don't click the "remember me" after like 5 minutes or something, so i'm just gonna type some ramblings real quick.

So in short, this is a non issue for the live server.

This is an enormous issue for competitive PS2 aka MLG, and MLG 48v48 simply will not work as it stands now. There aren't enough teams of a caliber to be able to compete, and there probably never will be. Eight 48 man teams would require 384 players (not including alternates, so lets just say 600 players), of which at least 96 would have to be Ace level pilots just to have 12 per team.

The players and teams most interested in MLG ignore this issue, and none of them would ever agree to being split up so there is no point in considering it. There is a reason salary caps exist in real sports, and those are sports with hundreds of thousands of potential players that need to fill up much smaller teams. PLanetisde 48 man roster of players on the field doesn't even include alternates. E-sports games with much larger fan/players bases can have trouble creating top notch competitive environments with teams of just 4-8 players.

I've listened or chated with players on the top teams, and when they start talking about being concerned with money earnings and stuff i just nod my head and ignore it. Planetside 2 competitve players will be luck if they earn 50 bucks on average. MLG will happen because as i understand it some promises or contracts were made between SOE and MLG. That said, currently PS2 is simply not viable for MLG, and it has nothing to do with the nexus or optimization or the game itself. The player base, fan base, and competitive player pool is all just too small.

Now i'm sure people will disagree with me and that is fine. From what I can tell a lot of these players on top teams would be happy to just start up competitive now and stomp all their competition. The problem is its incredibly fucking boring to watch, and e-sport competition requires spectators these days in order to be viable. If you dont care about the spectators, go use that competitive scrim site and play to your hearts content.

Best chance that competitive PS2 has is to cut the competition size to 24v24, which would eventually force some of the talent to split up.


Edit: now, i get that this comes off rather negative. I think its possible for PS2 MLG to be great, but i feel that there is really no consideration being taken as to how it will be viable by the most interested and talented parties, and instead the focus is really only on being the best.

[Rahabib]

... a bunch of completely relevant stuff...
Yep. New teams will have a hard time getting off the ground. So those good competitive players will stack in order to get a chance to play. Those who dont care about MLG, its not as big of an issue, but the high caliber players who want to compete and have good skill are forced to stack.

[Cats]

Not sure how much of an issue this is really going to be and what can be done about it though: Maybe some future NFL-like draft system? ("worse" outfits get to pick players first at the beginning of the season)
I guess we will have to wait to see how this one plays out.

A lot of the people this would target would legitimately quit the game if they got broken up and had to join some military roleplay outfit

48v48 just isn't realistic. Games like BF2 had tiny teams in comparison (8v8) and it was always a persistent ass pain to make sure everyone was on when they should be for both practice and the actual event.

24v24 is a bit more reasonable, and it will let combined arms aspect of PS2 show through a little. I could see it working like BF2 8v8, where you have one or maybe two dedicated vehicle drivers. Obviously some kind of team resource pool needs to be implemented to put a soft cap on how much can be pulled at any one time.

[Wahooo]

Forget about this whole NFL draft system: It's probably a bad example for this game. However, there's no denying that many outfits become friends with each other over time and inter-outfit play and transfers become more fluent. My main BRTD outfit has already regular ops with players from outfits like Vanu Corporation, WASP and INI Elite, playing on our side and some of us have actually alts within these outfits.

The fact that you can create these alts is going to be a killer for this as it allows you to have the best of both worlds. One of our best players (a woman actually) (why does gender notable?) switched to MercenaryS (NC outfit) and had her NC character leveled-up to BR 99 in just a few months. For top players, leveling up a new alt is really no issue and actually fun to do.

Actually a lot of what you are saying here is a good thing for the game. There are people you join because you want to play with others at or above your level and be competitive, and there are times you just want to have fun. The whole thing with alts and other empires I think improves the fun in the game. When you are seeing the same names over and over shooting you and notice they are good players you can maybe join them, get on their voice chat and find out they are cool and you want to play with them more. OR you might find out they are dicks and it inspires you to be a bit more serious mode when you run against them in game.

When top players. Those with skill, intelligence and experience come into an outfit it helps everyone in that outfit. They bring things to the table that maybe was lacking and help elevate the skill of those around them, if they are playing just for fun or trying to be competitive. The ability for these players to swap around and spread their knowledge helps the game.

I understand the concern that the top outfits being a magnet for the top players and leaving a vacuum in their wake. But in reality, most of the time it ends up balanced in the long run. Personal issues come up, or people who don't want to join the big guy and enjoy being the underdog. Or, some of the best outfits simply have their own self imposed member caps or turn people away.

[AuntLou]

Players combining to make stacked outfits is exactly what SOE wants you to do. The question was asked at SOE Live.. "My outfit only has a handful of guys interested in competitive play. Can we still participate?". The answer was no, join an outfit that does.

So what your proposing as a potential problem is exactly what SOE is encouraging us to do. When I heard this answer at SOE Live I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I was seriously a deer in headlights and looking back wish I would have said something or at least walked out to make a statement. I can't help but believe that most devs have no clue what it's like to be in an outfit with any sense of camaraderie and they just hop around playing random characters half-heartedly. I just don't think they realize how absurd it is for everyone to just leave their outfits just to compete in competitive play. It's not only unfair to these outfits and their faithful members but it could potentially affect the live servers w/ god outfits ruling specific areas and lattice lanes. With that said I have no problem with players naturally migrating to competitive outfits to compete. It's going to happen and your only going to cause problems trying to prevent it. The problem is when SOE tells them that it's their only option if they want to compete.

Good news though is the Community Clash guys are already showing them that a combination of a couple outfits is going might be necessary to get 48 vs. 48 on Nexus. Hope this has changed their minds a bit and shows super power outfits are not the answer.

I've been participating in competitive laser tag since 1998 and this year was the first year they did not run their large corporate run tournament in I believe 20 years. They were up to over 50 teams participating at one point and they couldn't even get 18 this year. They made rules that you have to represent the city you play for. Throughout the years there have been huge problems with stacking AND problems with cities not having enough players to represent. Then they started allowing multiple cities to combine and teams started stacking more and more. They gained some teams by doing this but also lost some teams that couldn't compete skill wise. It all just became a big mess and ultimately became one of the big downfalls of the tournament beyond the fact laser tag business itself is dwindling. So what can I take from this experience and suggest to SOE? It's hard to limit competitions to being one outfit. Combining 2 outfits still might not be the answer. If you end up with a handful of stacked outfits nobody else will want to even try competing. But the thing is I don't have the answer either. Just going to have to sit back and see what happens.

[Phrygen]

Yep. New teams will have a hard time getting off the ground. So those good competitive players will stack in order to get a chance to play. Those who dont care about MLG, its not as big of an issue, but the high caliber players who want to compete and have good skill are forced to stack.

Well, its more like the initial few MLG viable teams already recruited (aka stacked) for the last 8 months, so now anyone who wants to compete with them has to do the same.

The pilot situation is the worst to be honest.

snip

There is nothing wrong with SOE saying that competitive PS2 will require large teams. If you only have a handful of guys in an outfit and want competitive play, then merge outfits or leave and join another.

MLG cant just have random players and small outfits playing stand in for teams in every match. And the RCCC match where NNG combined with TGWW was a mess afterwards, since TGWW is really TGWW, QRY, at least on member of TEST, etc, and really it was NNG vs Mattherson top pilots. That works in RCCC because its just scrims and show matches. That shit wont fly (pun intended) in MLG.

I'm not even gonna comment on the laser tag thing Mr. Stinson

[Varsam]

Were I to run an outfit (I do), and take significant time and resources to recruit what I feel are the best players (I don't), I'd be pretty pissed about someone telling me we're "too good" and need to be split up. This ain't xbox live - no one's entitled to a fair fight. Even if it means unfortunate roflstomping.

This man speaks the truth.

[basti]

OK EVERYONE! Listen up! Drop from your outfit, we are going to repick teams!

Need Captains first. And if you ever played Sins of a Solar empire in multiplayer, then you know how much of a pain it is to get two people to cap. :P

[Mastachief]

What you are seeing is the better players that want more from the game slowly coming to the realisation that zergfits are shit and there is more to the game when you don't throw 70% pop advantage at the enemy.

Competitive outfits employ tactical thought to their movements and as a result win while often being out numbered. This has the knock on effect of helping the empire.



The fact that you can create these alts is going to be a killer for this as it allows you to have the best of both worlds. One of our best players (a woman actually) switched to MercenaryS (NC outfit) and had her NC character leveled-up to BR 99 in just a few months. .

What you will find is that Frankies has been in the Mercenarys since 2005 as for her reason for not playing TR as her main well you can ask her that...

All our members level quickly because they are supported (medic / engineers/ command), encouraged towards self improvement and not thrown into stupid farms.


Edit:

To add more.

This thing you are noticing is nothing new. The very same thing happened in PS1 to the point we actually ran a separate recruitment outfit to handle the influx and weed out the chaff. We did this because we have a max cap of 70 members (community spirit and teamwork is negatively effected above these numbers in our experience.) The influx was as a result of:

Falling activity in other decent outfits
Failing zergfits
Players wanting more from the game
Players switching empires after witnessing the fun we have

Big outfits in Planetside 2 are a bad thing, completely ruin fights for both the opponents and their own members. You can of course manage around the size problem but you will always lose something in regards to your community spirit by splitting people.

We are a fun based outfit that simply likes to kick ass at the same time and any member of other outfits can attest to that if they've been on our TS... it's a bit nuts...

Much more fun than zerging and then sitting and waiting for a timer to tick down:

Assault on Eisa ( Combat Medic / Carnage Br ) - YouTube

[AuntLou]

There is nothing wrong with SOE saying that competitive PS2 will require large teams. If you only have a handful of guys in an outfit and want competitive play, then merge outfits or leave and join another.

You seem to lack the understanding of loyalty they do. Allot of players won't leave their current outfits to participate. Ok then you will say "Well then your not participating" and I'll say "Ok cool have fun with your 6 competitive teams at MLG".


MLG cant just have random players and small outfits playing stand in for teams in every match. And the RCCC match where NNG combined with TGWW was a mess afterwards, since TGWW is really TGWW, QRY, at least on member of TEST, etc, and really it was NNG vs Mattherson top pilots. That works in RCCC because its just scrims and show matches. That shit wont fly (pun intended) in MLG.

You actually can have random players because there is no way to determine who represents each outfit anyways. There is nothing stopping someone from putting their main or alt on a competing outfit's roster just for the competition even though they play with a whole other outfit on live. SOE can't enforce shit cause they can't prove anything. You could say the player has to play with the outfit they have spent the most time with or they have to be on said outfit's roster for so many days. All bullshit rules that can be easily worked around w/ alts and alt accounts. Even if they used first and last RL names oh well I can just take the best players from 6 outfits, create a new one, throw some alts in it and register day 1 at MLG with our RL names. You CAN NOT stop it! So why try to enforce it?

[bpostal]

I don't see this being a major concern. Hell, the person you mentioned in your example Roflsky, has other, quite valid, reasons for playing NC over the TR.

The thing that does worry me is the impact on player numbers overall. If MLG does manage to get off the ground there is a very real possibility of creating a schism between the two major playerbases (Just to throw names around, let's call them 'Actual players' and 'MLG nubkins'). Such a fracture in the playerbase, if it were to occur, would either kill the game completely or shove it so far in a niche that Planetside (1, not PS2) would look like Battlefield by comparison.

[maradine]

out of order due to OP DP

This is just nonsense. You level up fast by using boosts and subscription, and kill a lot / blow up a lot of vehicles. Yea you can use the medic gun as well, but if you aren't killing while you do it, its not nearly effective as a good pilot of heavy.

Cool story, but that's not what he said. Revived heavies kill faster than heavies running from spawn. Repaired MAXs kill faster than revived MAXs. That's what "supported" means.

[Phrygen]

You seem to lack the understanding of loyalty they do. Allot of players won't leave their current outfits to participate. Ok then you will say "Well then your not participating" and I'll say "Ok cool have fun with your 6 competitive teams at MLG".



You actually can have random players because there is no way to determine who represents each outfit anyways. There is nothing stopping someone from putting their main or alt on a competing outfit's roster just for the competition even though they play with a whole other outfit on live. SOE can't enforce shit cause they can't prove anything. You could say the player has to play with the outfit they have spent the most time with or they have to be on said outfit's roster for so many days. All bullshit rules that can be easily worked around w/ alts and alt accounts. Even if they used first and last RL names oh well I can just take the best players from 6 outfits, create a new one, throw some alts in it and register day 1 at MLG with our RL names. You CAN NOT stop it! So why try to enforce it?

You being loyal is your business, but if you can't field a full team, thats also your business. PS2 isn't meant to cater to outfits made up of "a handful of players". If you want to keep the loyality and compete, recruit or merge, or make your own 8v8 competition that no one will have any interest in spectating.

as for your second point, no one will respect MLG if they can't confirm players aren't playing for multiple teams and all the other stuck you are bringing up. And you are wrong. If SOE wanted to they could track the IPs or track the hard drives playing the game. How do you think they manage to perma ban players? I have never heard of this being an issue in another E-sport, and if they can't resolve this as even a potential issue, that PS2 MLG is fucked.

So not only are you most likely wrong about enforcement, but if you want to assume that MLG wont be able to enforce something so simple as team rosters, well then MLG will be complete shit anyway and there is not point in giving it even a remote amount of consideration. If a competition cant even enforce the MOST BASIC OF RULES, then it wont succeed and will be a giant failure within a month anyway.

[Phrygen]

All our members level quickly because they are supported (medic / engineers/ command), encouraged towards self improvement and not thrown into stupid farms.



This is just nonsense. You level up fast by using boosts and subscription, and kill a lot / blow up a lot of vehicles. Yea you can use the medic gun as well, but if you aren't killing while you do it, its not nearly effective as a good pilot of heavy.

[Phrygen]

out of order due to OP DP



Cool story, but that's not what he said. Revived heavies kill faster than heavies running from spawn. Repaired MAXs kill faster than revived MAXs. That's what "supported" means.

He actually did say that. He said the reason his outfit mates level up so fast is because they play support roles.

That is again just nonsense. Support roles are how bad players level up fast, and how good players supplement their xp while blowing up vehicles and killing enemies. Mossie pilots, dalton gunners and heavies with xp boosts can still get more much xp when played properly. Not to mention the real "cool story" is the fact that his entire post is completely irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

Edit: and yea what quoted i reposted, not sure why it screwed up but the post got mostly deleted.

[maradine]

No, he said the reason his outfit mates level up so fast is the outfit fields organized support roles. If you can't see the subtle but substantial difference between those two things ("we have good medics" / "everyone farms as a medic"), I'm not sure what else I can say. Enjoy coke!

[Phrygen]

Enjoy coke!

not my thing, but w/e floats your boat:rolleyes:

[Mastachief]

He actually did say that. He said the reason his outfit mates level up so fast is because they play support roles.

.

Read it again numpty. I said supported. Also your comments regard support roles are bullshit where we are concerned. Our players are killers first and support function as secondary. The video in the post illustrates the support. Every class in planetside has a support function.

My response was directed at the OP and used purely to illustrate why these players are leaving outfits for competitive outfits. I specifically replied to him as he references my outfit and a player within it.

[SgtMAD]

Pure comedy,its just like the old PS forums all over again,Ht was accused of this during PS when there was a trend on Markov with TR and VS CR5's leveling up then moving to NC and playing with us,it was all over the forums for quite a while back in late '03 and '04.

you can't force the playerbase to join outfits they have no desire to be a part of,if you are losing ppl then maybe its your lack of a compelling playing experience because if you make the game fun for the player then they will log in more often and stay ingame longer.

I don't care how cool or special you think your outfit is, the truth is in the numbers and there are a shit-ton of outfits that fall into this category.

[Phrygen]

Pure comedy,its just like the old PS forums all over again,Ht was accused of this during PS when there was a trend on Markov with TR and VS CR5's leveling up then moving to NC and playing with us,it was all over the forums for quite a while back in late '03 and '04.

you can't force the playerbase to join outfits they have no desire to be a part of,if you are losing ppl then maybe its your lack of a compelling playing experience because if you make the game fun for the player then they will log in more often and stay ingame longer.

I don't care how cool or special you think your outfit is, the truth is in the numbers and there are a shit-ton of outfits that fall into this category.

You are right. There is no feasible way to have players split up evenly between teams.

There is also no way to force MLG to continually sponsor PS2 (past w.e deal is secured) or force people to spectate 1 sided, boring, and completely unfair gang stompings.

The OPs post is about competitive play, not stacking teams regarding the live servers.

[Hamma]

I honestly don't think the player base is large enough to support 48v48 competition. There are really very few outfits that fit within that specific mould. As far as I see it there is no way competitive 48v48 is going to work from a production scale let alone the player base side of things. The ball was dropped imho some time ago when it comes to the competitive scene.

I don't see it as an "Issue" these teams are "stacking" but I do not think it's a viable competition scene and I honestly don't see it becoming one with 48 v 48.

[Calista]

I honestly don't think the player base is large enough to support 48v48 competition. There are really very few outfits that fit within that specific mould. As far as I see it there is no way competitive 48v48 is going to work from a production scale let alone the player base side of things. The ball was dropped imho some time ago when it comes to the competitive scene.

I don't see it as an "Issue" these teams are "stacking" but I do not think it's a viable competition scene and I honestly don't see it becoming one with 48 v 48.

Amen brother!

[Phrygen]

I honestly don't think the player base is large enough to support 48v48 competition. There are really very few outfits that fit within that specific mould. As far as I see it there is no way competitive 48v48 is going to work from a production scale let alone the player base side of things. The ball was dropped imho some time ago when it comes to the competitive scene.

I don't see it as an "Issue" these teams are "stacking" but I do not think it's a viable competition scene and I honestly don't see it becoming one with 48 v 48.

Indeed.

The odd thing as that the majority of these teams are recruiting ("stacking") with the intent of being competitive 48v48. Because of the nexus, the teams are preparing for 48v48, when the chances of it happening are seemingly low at the moment.

Will be interesting what happens if competitive is announced as 24v24 or less. outfits will probably break up quickly.

[Hamma]

There was a train going down the tracks maybe about 9 months ago where this sort of think could have taken off. That train is now long gone and has taken with it any chance at a viable competitive scene based on the original vision. And I'll be honest, I found the 48v48 matches I've watched and even produced boring by comparison. It has to be small scale or it will not be entertaining. This doesn't even take into account all competition is going to be one outfit completely rolling another.

Nexus is too large for 48 v 48. And any larger team size is even more impossible.

[Calista]

There was a train going down the tracks maybe about 9 months ago where this sort of think could have taken off. That train is now long gone and has taken with it any chance at a viable competitive scene based on the original vision. And I'll be honest, I found the 48v48 matches I've watched and even produced boring by comparison. It has to be small scale or it will not be entertaining. This doesn't even take into account all competition is going to be one outfit completely rolling another.

Nexus is too large for 48 v 48. And any larger team size is even more impossible.

Way to throw water on the fire just before MLG Orlando Hamma :lol: But I do agree with everything you have said. So what to do now? Make a mini-Nexus?

[Hamma]

Not sure sadly - but that's above my paygrade. :lol:

Community Clash is probably going to start doing things small scale again and once we get a private server in place we will take it back to the live continents.

[NewSith]

A little reminder about what's 5v5 and why:
1) 5v5 allows LAN championships.
2) ...where cheating is near impossible and each player is closely observed.
3) Less people - bigger share of prize money.
4) Less people - cheaper sponsorship.
5) 5v5 is easy to cast and spectate on micro-scale.
6) ...and thus it allows to point out individual players' skill.
7) Less chances of critical disconnects and CTDs.
8) Less arguing (or to be precise, less tensions) in debatable situations.

Now what's PS2 esport:
1) The game has great meta-depth, so it can be broadcasted as an RTS, but with each unit contrlled by a separate player.
2) It has the ability to simultaneously show 96 players battling each other
3) The vast majority of flexible and balanced tools, allow tactics being signature for each outfit.
4) SOE's vast capital allows for enormous prize pool.
5) System requirements allow the game to be a "people's" game, like DOTA 2, for instance, or Counter-Strike, back in the day.
6) 1-5 is currently false for PS2.



PS I'm leaving complex level design out of it, since it's probably the only thing that's not obligatory for cybersport. So in short - somebody has to pick up the ball, or it's gonna be over rather soon.
PPS I'm pro 48v48 in PS2, in case anyone wonders. What I'm trying to say is the devs are too slow for this game to have a chance of being truly competitive, before it gets outmached by other rising stars.

[Mastachief]

Way to throw water on the fire just before MLG Orlando Hamma :lol: But I do agree with everything you have said. So what to do now? Make a mini-Nexus?

Mini nexus or caves maybe. UT2004 maps with large enclosed indoor areas etc.

24v24 may work, but i've always maintained that competitions should be yearly tournements held over 2months. MLG cannot function in a game like this, there isn't a large enough player base and teams of 48 rarely work and are difficult to spectate as there is very little individual focus possible in what is a huge clusterfuck. Again some thing players start to realise once the epic number scale novelty wears off.

All we currently see in CC for example, (much like the real game) is aircamp - brief fight aircamp rinse and repeat. Hardly entertaining. Purely bad level design. If you want to entertain it has to have fight to base with vehicles - fight hard through extensive base immune from vehicle spam.

[KesTro]

Honestly, all viability issues aside. I was always excited for the MLG scene because it would pull away some of the outfits people tend to not bother to fight anyhow.

(Damn FCRW, you scary.)

[Phrygen]

A little reminder about what's 5v5 and why:
1) 5v5 allows LAN championships.
2) ...where cheating is near impossible and each player is closely observed.
3) Less people - bigger share of prize money.
4) Less people - cheaper sponsorship.
5) 5v5 is easy to cast and spectate on micro-scale.
6) ...and thus it allows to point out individual players' skill.
7) Less chances of critical disconnects and CTDs.
8) Less arguing (or to be precise, less tensions) in debatable situations.

Now what's PS2 esport:
1) The game has great meta-depth, so it can be broadcasted as an RTS, but with each unit contrlled by a separate player.
2) It has the ability to simultaneously show 96 players battling each other
3) The vast majority of flexible and balanced tools, allow tactics being signature for each outfit.
4) SOE's vast capital allows for enormous prize pool.
5) System requirements allow the game to be a "people's" game, like DOTA 2, for instance, or Counter-Strike, back in the day.
6) 1-5 is currently false for PS2.
.

just a couple things.

The idea as i heard it was to have the platoon lead and each squad leader on LAN for MLG events (at least the big ones), so there would be a total of ten players on lan and the rest playing from home.

And as far as SOE's "vast capital for enormous prize pools", they just laid off like what... 25% of their employees..?

[NewSith]

just a couple things.

The idea as i heard it was to have the platoon lead and each squad leader on LAN for MLG events (at least the big ones), so there would be a total of ten players on lan and the rest playing from home.

This doesn't really solve half the issues I implied.

And as far as SOE's "vast capital for enormous prize pools", they just laid off like what... 25% of their employees..?

You're looking at it the wrong way... The question is why they were cut. I doubt it was because SOE decided to make lots of money while having lots. It was more like a step to cut losses, rather than increase gain. But on this particular subject I'm no analyst and certainly no judge.

[Babyfark McGeez]

I still don't think the concept of this game suits e-sports very well.

I do like fighting against the more competent outfits on miller though, atleast when the numbers are even.

[Krunk]

GW 2 has persistent large scale competitive play. With larger teams the definition of your competitive gamer changes. Remember all the formats you have seen involve very strict structure and a high volumn of bugs and errors.

@Phrygen - We Voted on the name "Salt Miners United" for our Team Name.

[Rolfski]

Players combining to make stacked outfits is exactly what SOE wants you to do. The question was asked at SOE Live.. "My outfit only has a handful of guys interested in competitive play. Can we still participate?". The answer was no, join an outfit that does.


as for your second point, no one will respect MLG if they can't confirm players aren't playing for multiple teams and all the other stuck you are bringing up. And you are wrong. If SOE wanted to they could track the IPs or track the hard drives playing the game. How do you think they manage to perma ban players? I have never heard of this being an issue in another E-sport, and if they can't resolve this as even a potential issue, that PS2 MLG is fucked.

If SOE wants single outfits for e-sports and MLG (or ESL) is able to enforce this rule, then I wouldn't be surprised if you would end up with maybe max 5 to 6 North American and max 5 to 6 EU outfits, all completely stacked and fully allstar, that are able to compete for money prizes with the current player base and 48 vs 48 rule.

That's no competition, that's just plain boredom. Nothing against NUC/TIW/Future Crew (I highly respect these outfits), but I'm already getting bored seeing the same outfits every other week on War Report.

And SOE/MLG simply can't ban players for having a "serious" alt for their allstar/roflstomp outfit and a "loyal/casual" alt for their original friend outfit.

I don't see this being a major concern. Hell, the person you mentioned in your example Roflsky, has other, quite valid, reasons for playing NC over the TR.
Don't get me wrong, I know she has valid reasons for playing her alt and I'm not opposing alts at all. I just merely use it as a point to illustrate how quickly top players can level up, thereby removing any obstacle for players to make an "e-sports alt".

Alts are the core design philosophy behind this game as SOE wants you to be able to always play with your friends (or in her case family), no matter what faction/server/outfit. It's also this very same mechanic that can potentially completely ruin their e-sports ambitions, given the current rules and player base.


The thing that does worry me is the impact on player numbers overall. If MLG does manage to get off the ground there is a very real possibility of creating a schism between the two major playerbases (Just to throw names around, let's call them 'Actual players' and 'MLG nubkins'). Such a fracture in the playerbase, if it were to occur, would either kill the game completely or shove it so far in a niche that Planetside (1, not PS2) would look like Battlefield by comparison.

As Evilpig mentioned as well, this effect may indeed turn out bigger than SOE has ever foreseen. If you're training for serious cash prizes, you ideally want controlled, instanced environments and probably find yourself more on PTS than on live server, preparing for some MLG tournament or weekly ladder.

How big of a noticeable impact this will have on vanilla play remains to be seen imo. Your probably talking about 200 e-sports players max on a server that has typically 2000+ players on prime time and outfits will probably not train all the time on PTS. Still, it's an undesirable effect nonetheless.

[Phrygen]

GW 2 has persistent large scale competitive play. With larger teams the definition of your competitive gamer changes. Remember all the formats you have seen involve very strict structure and a high volumn of bugs and errors.

@Phrygen - We Voted on the name "Salt Miners United" for our Team Name.

Guild wars 2 hasn't even scratched the top 20 on twitch for months.

most recent thing I could find was an MLG invitational with 1000 bucks for the winning team in September and that was 5v5 format.

If you are talking about the battle grounds on the live server, not sure what that has to do with competitive mlg PS2.

[Stanis]

If SOE wants single outfits for e-sports and MLG (or ESL) is able to enforce this rule, then I wouldn't be surprised if you would end up with maybe max 5 to 6 North American and max 5 to 6 EU outfits, all completely stacked and fully allstar, that are able to compete for money prizes with the current player base and 48 vs 48 rule.


The elephant in the room for me that nobody has mentioned is :

One or two servers will have a reputation due to one or two outfits. This will attract that type of player.

There will be one stacked outfit per server clearly ahead of the others, plus one or two more on other factions that are good. But as players on each server get to know the 'elite' community they gravitate in one direction.



Fair play to INI, they're good, but on Miller I've seen a few higher BR vanu head in their direction.
What I don't know is how active their VS alts remain.

Seems to me a case of "If you can't beat them, join them".
Which is possible because of a complete absence of faction purpose or loyalty.

[kubacheski]

I hate to say that all competitive games sort out like this. Top talent gets stacked together to gain the edge against others. The situation has a tendency to line itself out as there is always competition within the unit for superiority. Some work great together, but most will have a conflict that separates the team into two or more once competition gets stagnant. It's also no fun winning by a landslide for extended periods of time. Even splits like this happen for friendly competition out of boredome. Problem with PS2 is that you've got to level another toon in another faction to get to a comparable certification load for it to be "even".

the problem with PS2 trying MLG is just that - equality isn't there. typically in MLG, everyone has what the competition has. With the complexities and imbalances in certification choices, there simply isn't that balance in this game. Skill is not the only factor in deciding battle outcomes, nor is group distribution. A group of BR10 can't compete with a group of BR50+. You can't just jump in and kickass. You have to invest, invest, invest - time or money, you choose.

And maybe that's what SOE wants. people to throw cash at it to get competitive. Maybe that's the MLG scam people will fall for. I don't know.

[Rahabib]

We have kinda got off the topic. But honestly, they could just isolate a few territories (one base) with three capture points and made a fun 12v12 without having to build new maps - just instanced territories with boundaries limiting to that one territory. Then once the scene picks up, then expand to 24v24 and 48v48.

Regardless, since you need at least 48 players who can play at any one time PER TEAM, good players are forced to stack on MLG teams or you will never be able to compete.

[Rolfski]

The elephant in the room for me that nobody has mentioned is :

One or two servers will have a reputation due to one or two outfits. This will attract that type of player.

There will be one stacked outfit per server clearly ahead of the others, plus one or two more on other factions that are good. But as players on each server get to know the 'elite' community they gravitate in one direction.



Fair play to INI, they're good, but on Miller I've seen a few higher BR vanu head in their direction.
What I don't know is how active their VS alts remain.

Seems to me a case of "If you can't beat them, join them".
Which is possible because of a complete absence of faction purpose or loyalty.
This for sure is an issue, not only on Miller but on US servers as well. Someone used an example on the reddit version of this topic (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1ohaak/the_esport_future_of_ps2_a_handful_of_stacked_up/) of all the good career Lib teams on the US servers already being stacked into 2/3 top outfits.

Problem with PS2 is that you've got to level another toon in another faction to get to a comparable certification load for it to be "even".
As I mentioned above this is not really an issue, it only takes a few months to level up your toon to competitive level. In fact, in only a single session of play you can already level up to a fairly competitive medic that can contribute to high-level teamwork.

Most of the competitive stacking takes place outside vanilla game anyway: Either in PTS where you mostly will train and have a 100K certs to spend or in the match itself, where SOE wants everybody to start on equal/BR 0 level.

[Calista]

Community Clash is probably going to start doing things small scale again and once we get a private server in place we will take it back to the live continents.

I see, so you are thinking of having a private server and setting up battles over smaller objectives without outside interference. That would probably work pretty well actually. You could pick and chose different areas to fight over to keep things fresh and even scale the fights to whoever showed up for the event type of thing.

[Maidere]

48v48 format sure can cause some stacking. The core of the problem is low population. Let's say 5% of the whole playerbase are competitive-level players. Sure we can expect outfit merges/stacking for the purpose of having of 60-70 competitive players in one outfit.
We had this problem in WoW: gosh, we had a lot of problems in WotLK WoW (13 millions sub base) trying to get not 60, but 30-35 exceptional players.

[Sardus]

I'm not really sure if the competitive scene is really going to matter if we don't get some new content in soon.

Who cares about 12 vs 12 people playing if the general public doesn't want to play the game LOL. They make their money on that. Watching people fight each other is just a promotion. You need a solid product first.. and as good as planetside is, it has a lot of flaws right now that's not retaining people like the original. Namely, lack of metagame - the part of the game that makes repetition fun. That is severely lacking, and people are getting burned out without it.

[AuntLou]

You being loyal is your business, but if you can't field a full team, thats also your business. PS2 isn't meant to cater to outfits made up of "a handful of players". If you want to keep the loyality and compete, recruit or merge, or make your own 8v8 competition that no one will have any interest in spectating.

Me? Nothing to do with me. Like I said "Ok cool have fun with your 6 competitive teams at MLG" "that no one will have any interest in spectating" week after week.


as for your second point, no one will respect MLG if they can't confirm players aren't playing for multiple teams and all the other stuck you are bringing up. And you are wrong. If SOE wanted to they could track the IPs or track the hard drives playing the game. How do you think they manage to perma ban players? I have never heard of this being an issue in another E-sport, and if they can't resolve this as even a potential issue, that PS2 MLG is fucked.

So not only are you most likely wrong about enforcement, but if you want to assume that MLG wont be able to enforce something so simple as team rosters, well then MLG will be complete shit anyway and there is not point in giving it even a remote amount of consideration. If a competition cant even enforce the MOST BASIC OF RULES, then it wont succeed and will be a giant failure within a month anyway.

Yep the most basic of rules that can only be enforced by an honor system. Be specific with your whole IP idea...
How would this work?
What if my roommate plays on the same computer for a different outfit?
What if my PC breaks down and I have to play at a friends?
Whats stopping me Louey of the Forty Deuce from creating a alt account w/ a character called Scourgesballs and putting it in the Future Crew outfit? I can register in MLG as Scrougesballs, have them check my IP, YEP! Scrougesballs plays at 123.456.222.1234, bam Scourgesballs plays for Future Crew in MLG even though he is Louey of the Forty Deuce. They aren't going to check Louey's IP, Louey doesn't even play in MLG. Not to mention even if they found out I'm Louey of the Forty Deuce so what? I have tons of alts all in different outfits. Who's to say who my main is?
When are your mice with thumb print verification on them coming out?

They can try man but I'm telling you from experience it'll be a mess and won't work.

[bpostal]

....123.456.222.1234...

Invalid IP address, banned for life.

[Rolfski]

Yep the most basic of rules that can only be enforced by an honor system. Be specific with your whole IP idea...
How would this work?
What if my roommate plays on the same computer for a different outfit?
What if my PC breaks down and I have to play at a friends?
Whats stopping me Louey of the Forty Deuce from creating a alt account w/ a character called Scourgesballs and putting it in the Future Crew outfit? I can register in MLG as Scrougesballs, have them check my IP, YEP! Scrougesballs plays at 123.456.222.1234, bam Scourgesballs plays for Future Crew in MLG even though he is Louey of the Forty Deuce. They aren't going to check Louey's IP, Louey doesn't even play in MLG. Not to mention even if they found out I'm Louey of the Forty Deuce so what? I have tons of alts all in different outfits. Who's to say who my main is?
When are your mice with thumb print verification on them coming out?


I'm sure there are other ways to cheat with this system but in this case, I can imagine they will allow your Scourgesballs alt at the beginning of the season (this where the stacking happens) and tag it Future Crew as well as to a single IP or other unique ID. During that season you can only play for Future Crew. The moment your unique IP/ID turns up at another outfit, they will probably ban you from the competition.

[huller]

[Removed]

[FRANKIES]

I think it's about time I responded myself!
For what ever reason you seem to be interested in my empire switch! Firstly to Rolfsky the fact that I am a female is irrelevant to your discussion! I do not play the girl gamer card so neither should you guys..... I earn my reputation for being a player being female makes me neither better or worse than anyone else playing the game and would appreciate you leaving that detail out!

Secondly to huller if you have an issue with me I suggest you say it to my face instead of using forums ! If I have 10k kills with a particular weapon then I have 10k kills end of story, my play style means nothing to you it does not make me a bad or a good person!!!!!!

As for the original post I don't believe it is an issue people should be allowed to please themselves however they wish regardless of faction! My reasons for swapping are my own and have not affected anyone else!

[snafus]

Uh oh teddy bears are about to be thrown.

[Zadexin]

Bringing in a smaller competitive scene, where battles have no impact on the actual game is bad. Planetside is all about being out there in the Live environment. Who cares what a 12 v 12 or 48 v 48 results in, when your empire is on the Live server trying to get it done. I opposed the Battledomes in PS1 because they pull players off of the Live servers and that's what a competitive scene will do as well. Some teams that want to be "MLG" like will likely only really log in to practice or play the events. Planetside needs players on the battlefield, participating in the big picture.

As mentioned above, I'm more concerned with the competitive scene's impact on in game numbers, by any team.

Yep, this exact thing happened to us last night. As soon as an alert started there was a scheduled training for the portion of our outfit that is doing the competitive crap and we were left understaffed and consequently lost the alert by 1 techplant. I have no doubt if we had all our best players in the actual game we would have won.

It boggles my mind that SOE would even use PS2 for MLG. They take a game that, theoretically should be played by THOUSANDS of players at one time and limit it to 60? Meanwhile there are other, simply better, arena shooters out there. PS2 is good BECAUSE its huge, when you make it a few against a few it is very mediocre. Have you ever tried hunting down that one infiltrator that keeps back hacking your stuff. Yeah that's fun.

[DredVS]

"You never stay the same. You either get better or you get worse."

Of course top outfits want the best players. And the best players want to win, so they join the best teams. That's basic sports logic right there.

The low-tier MLG teams will be scrimming against top teams and learning from them as they get stomped. Eventually this will improve the competitive scene as they learn to stop being terrible.

But this is all guessing. There are lots of people worrying when it hasn't even started yet. This is PS2's eSports scene in it's very infancy.

[Bobby Shaftoe]

The low-tier MLG teams will be scrimming against top teams and learning from them as they get stomped. Eventually this will improve the competitive scene as they learn to stop being terrible.

No, the teams that get stomped will stop playing/cease to exist, and only a %age of those free players will join/be considered for another 'mlg' outfit.

It's quite simple, a large number of 'competitive' players want to win with the minimal amount of effort, 'good/egotistical' players on 'low-tier' teams will get frustrated with their losing outfit because they know/think they can do better, upsticks and join a higher-tier team.

Very few actually have the commitment to STAY with an original setup and grind out the WORK to improve their teamwork/skills, even if the 'good' players in the outfit have that ambition, it doesn't mean the rest of the outfit does, so they stop playing because they don't have the numbers.

[AuntLou]

I'm sure there are other ways to cheat with this system but in this case, I can imagine they will allow your Scourgesballs alt at the beginning of the season (this where the stacking happens) and tag it Future Crew as well as to a single IP or other unique ID. During that season you can only play for Future Crew. The moment your unique IP/ID turns up at another outfit, they will probably ban you from the competition.

So people competing can not have characters in other outfits?

Yeah not going to happen.

[DredVS]

Talked with some Future Crew guys, apparently there might be a "league" system in the making for determining who plays each other.

Meaning, what will likely happen is top-tier teams will play top-tier teams, and rookie teams will play rookie teams.

At this point it is pretty clear who is already top-tier and I doubt there will be any matches at all to determine who is placed into which league.

As for relegation to get knocked down to a lower league, well this is all guesswork for what I think might happen. But relegation would definitely be an incentive for lower-tier teams to keep improving and for higher-tier teams to stay the best.

This is good! Because like you some of you have said, lower-tier teams would rather quit rather than get stomped by top outfits. This lets them improve against each other, and possibly move up in relegation matches.

EDIT: I want to clarify that this is hearsay.

[Snoggy]

I'd love to play in a competitive outfit, with 'leading' players that are BR100 and log on more than once a week =P

[Rahabib]

Talked with some Future Crew guys, apparently there might be a "league" system in the making for determining who plays each other.

Meaning, what will likely happen is top-tier teams will play top-tier teams, and rookie teams will play rookie teams.

At this point it is pretty clear who is already top-tier and I doubt there will be any matches at all to determine who is placed into which league.

As for relegation to get knocked down to a lower league, well this is all guesswork for what I think might happen. But relegation would definitely be an incentive for lower-tier teams to keep improving and for higher-tier teams to stay the best.

This is good! Because like you some of you have said, lower-tier teams would rather quit rather than get stomped by top outfits. This lets them improve against each other, and possibly move up in relegation matches.

EDIT: I want to clarify that this is hearsay.

Awesome, so the three top teams can just play each other and the other 4-5 teams can be in a league. :rolleyes:

Well at least all the teams can get to know one another well since they will play them a lot.

[KesTro]

Awesome, so the three top teams can just play each other and the other 4-5 teams can be in a league. :rolleyes:

Well at least all the teams can get to know one another well since they will play them a lot.

Would you rather watch the same three outfits go uncontested each week?

[Krunk]

One thing that worries me a bit about this game is that the competitive scene is already clearly splitting up the player/outfit base.

Outfit loyalty only goes so far when you're in for the win and I wouldn't be surprised to see all the top players eventually stacked up in only a handful of allstar outfits.


The lack of outfits is not due to the players but the leaders and the lack of although with the declining population the player pool might become quite stale.

[Rolfski]

I think it's about time I responded myself!
For what ever reason you seem to be interested in my empire switch! Firstly to Rolfsky the fact that I am a female is irrelevant to your discussion! I do not play the girl gamer card so neither should you guys..... I earn my reputation for being a player being female makes me neither better or worse than anyone else playing the game and would appreciate you leaving that detail out!

Secondly to huller if you have an issue with me I suggest you say it to my face instead of using forums ! If I have 10k kills with a particular weapon then I have 10k kills end of story, my play style means nothing to you it does not make me a bad or a good person!!!!!!

As for the original post I don't believe it is an issue people should be allowed to please themselves however they wish regardless of faction! My reasons for swapping are my own and have not affected anyone else!
This discussion was never intended to be focussed around you and certainly not in a negative way, so let's leave it at that pls and take this offline. I send you a pm.

So people competing can not have characters in other outfits?

Yeah not going to happen.
You can have characters in as many outfits as you want but you can probably participate in the competition with only one of them.


Awesome, so the three top teams can just play each other and the other 4-5 teams can be in a league. :rolleyes:

Well at least all the teams can get to know one another well since they will play them a lot.
Exactly the reason why a league system won't work with the current player base. Unless top outfits regulate to un-stack themselves (something you see in other sports competitions as well btw), they're basically digging their own e-sports graves before this whole MLG thing has even started.

[Krunk]

So which outfits are "toxic" and need to be unstacked.

[Rahabib]

....Exactly the reason why a league system won't work with the current player base. Unless top outfits regulate to un-stack themselves (something you see in other sports competitions as well btw), they're basically digging their own e-sports graves before this whole MLG thing has even started.
Exactly. Talking about a league to separate when there are so few teams to begin with is backwards.

[Phrygen]

Exactly the reason why a league system won't work with the current player base. Unless top outfits regulate to un-stack themselves (something you see in other sports competitions as well btw), they're basically digging their own e-sports graves before this whole MLG thing has even started.

This, but that will simply never happen.

Its best to try to break up other bigger outfits and get all of the best players from those outfits to make one new outfit.

NUC FCW DA TGWW/QRY and DVS aren't going to break up, but you can potentially get the best NNG/GOTR/GOKU/ragequit players to shed off and make 1 new outfit. Of course they wouldn't have enough pilots to compete with TGWW/QRY and they would still lose to the DA+TGWW/QRY team.... but in theory they might not get completely destroyed.


Also, as far as this league thing goes... 3 teams playing each other is not a league, and its wont be fun to watch after a few games. the 5 outfit minor league could be ok... maybe. Then again, who likes watching minor league play?

When it comes down to it, the teams are more concerned with being the best they can be, and having fun that they are with attracting spectators. These outfits shouldn't be blamed, but its just kinda sad sometimes when you read some of the posts from NUC members for example. So much effort and thought process passion goes into some of their posts, yet its so painfully obvious that as it stands, no one is going to watch MLG ps2 matches, and the game is going to fail as a competitive e-sport if player numbers dont drastically increase, and more competitive teams emerge.

[Mastachief]

Make it 24 v 24 v24.

Bin the 48v48 format.

This would lead to self regulation if you can only have 1 team per outfit. The stacking is a result of needing so many members to field 48 for a competition.

Another option to add to this could be using the individual mlg values of players and giving an outfit a budget to spend to build a team for each match. This would limit you from taking 24 of the very best players in your outfit because your budget wouldn't cover it. This could be on a per match basis or to cover the whole tourney (the tourney basis would allow you to stack against a tougher outfit at the cost of fielding a weaker team against another outfit.)

As a result of these limitations, players looking for competitivemplay would look at a stacked outfit and go "hmmmm i might only get to play 1 out of 6 matches in that outfit, but in this other one i might play 4/6"

[Rolfski]

These outfits shouldn't be blamed, but its just kinda sad sometimes when you read some of the posts from NUC members for example. So much effort and thought process passion goes into some of their posts, yet its so painfully obvious that as it stands, no one is going to watch MLG ps2 matches, and the game is going to fail as a competitive e-sport if player numbers dont drastically increase, and more competitive teams emerge.
Don't get me wrong, I don't blame outfits like NUC for stacking at all. I admire all the hard work they put into this and stacking is necessary for them to become top dog. But the catch is that this also creates a social dilemna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_dilemma): What's good for individual outfits, hurts the overall competition.

That's what you need artificial regulations for. Whether that be a (temporarily) tone down to 24 vs 24, a draft system or even a handicap system based on the upcoming stat overhaul, is up for discussion.
It could even involve making the battle maps (temporarily) less air dominant or fixing the skill-to-power ratio of air, as a lack of good pilots seems to be the main factor in stacking atm.

But with the current state of the game, something needs to be done to prevent this MLG initiative from becoming DOA, which would be sour for all the hard-working people involved.

[Hmr85]

Not a fan of MLG, I'll be honest. With that said, 48 vs 48 isn't gonna be where its at IMO. It doesn't give spectators a chance to follow their favorite player. Its to chaotic with stuff going on everywhere. If SOE wants to Salvage this MLG thing it has going on right now. They are going to have to drop the number to 24 vs 24 IMO.

Its easier to manage. Fits in nicely IMO on the smaller MLG battle islands they are trying to push. Allows spectators to follow their favorite player or group of players more easily. Focuses MLG more around Small squad tactics instead of Zerg Tactics. If they are looking for a ranking system for future outfits that want to play at "MLG" level then I recommend SOE looks at how blizzard does their ranking system for Starcraft 2 and go from there.

All in all, I'm not worried about outfits stacking better players. Its not hard to pick out the better fighters in the outfit compared to the cannon fodder some of the outfits have filling in their ranks just so they can compete.

TLDR: Go smaller 24v24 instead of 48v48. Easier to manage, allows fans to follow their favorite players/group easier, promotes Small Squad tactics instead of Zerg tactics. Look at how SC2 does its ladder system for ranking.

[DredVS]

If 24 vs. 24 becomes a thing and SOE ditches 48 vs. 48, I don't see why top outfits wouldn't create "B-Teams."

It happened in League of Legends often before Riot made a new policy against it. TSM EVO, CLG Black. Teams under the same organization but were seperate teams.

Just making a statement. The league system might be filled with a couple B-Teams if SOE decides to go this route.

[Krunk]

I think we may want to check out a few other things before we start worrying about leagues and "Regulation".

Beyond the number of players per team, we the player base have no other basis on to team requirements. Up until recently we had no understanding of how the match's would be played out until the Nexus was released and showcased.

We are just now starting to see a mold come together of what is expected and required of a group of players to be a 48 man competitive team. This now gives players something the push towards and develop in to.

Look at the way NUC has progressed as a competitive team through out there events, look closely at how movements, composition, and tactics evolve *Note Nexus. It takes time to build the leadership necessary to run one of these teams and even longer to pull together enough like minded individuals to compete. Add in the fact that there is no scene beyond the RCCC to even test yourself and keep this group engaged. You begin to see how this is a lot of growing pains. Now we look at the overall population and in-game activity lately these issues are even more drastic.

Now some theory crafting done on my part is that at the very least Mattherson has the player base to form at least 1 if not 2 other teams that would be on the same level as the "stacked" teams. This is with the first team having its own star studded air team as well.

Most outfits needs to just swallow their pride and start throwing themselves in the hot seat to expose their weakness's to improve and learn from controlled environments. NUC did not get where they are by simply playing all the alerts.

Summary: The players are not the problem but the failure and or lack of proper leadership and scene. Also the of tools to facilitate "competitive" play easily. (Forums, Social Areas, Meta game ext ext)

[Phrygen]

Now some theory crafting done on my part is that at the very least Mattherson has the player base to form at least 1 if not 2 other teams that would be on the same level as the "stacked" teams. This is with the first team having its own star studded air team as well.

well this is just false. Teams require a competitive air squad, if not two squads, to properly compete. This is especially true in lattice. All the best mattherson pilots considered themselves one group, but have lots of alts and fly in different outfits.

If MLG does happen, they will all fly together, and everyone else on mattherson wont have acceptably talented pilots to compete, and therefor not be competitive in the slightest.

[Krunk]

well this is just false. Teams require a competitive air squad, if not two squads, to properly compete. This is especially true in lattice. All the best mattherson pilots considered themselves one group, but have lots of alts and fly in different outfits.

If MLG does happen, they will all fly together, and everyone else on mattherson wont have acceptably talented pilots to compete, and therefor not be competitive in the slightest.

From my perspective and forgive me if I am wrong but all the evidence favors another opinion.

As a member of that 'group' you are speaking about I can safely tell you that we could fill 2 Squads however the stronger balance is to field 12-16 fliers for the nexus. There is also enough pilots to form another full 2 squads between the factions. You still need the leadership to bring these players together and environment for them to develop together.

Currently the live server is far from the environment to facilitate any sort of teams forming and consistently playing. I don't know about you but anytime we form up anything beyond 3 Aircraft we are scraping for kills unchallenged to anything beyond flak and lock-ons.

What most people don't realize is that after a handful of aircraft individual skill goes out the window and as long as you have competent pilots who hit the cues they will come out on top. You think Dreadnaughts 1000+ hours of liberating will change the out-come of 3 or even 6 esf's opening up on him.

The single greatest downfall to any-team trying to compete in this setting is their own inability to adapt their current tactics to address problem at hand.

P.S. NUC triyng to polch Matherson pilots doesn't help either ;D

[Mastachief]

The importance put on AIR squads in these matches really highlight the huge flaws with this game. It almost matters nought about your ground skills if you own the airspace.

[NewSith]

The importance put on AIR squads in these matches really highlight the huge flaws with this game. It almost matters nought about your ground skills if you own the airspace.

Masty, if we go off-topic here, I would like to say that a game with air not being handicapped against ground is going to be like that, always. Especially if highest possible ESF to Player ratio is 1. But changing that now will only cause a lot of butthurt (reasonable, nevertheless), so it's not worth it. Now devs can only try and affect it through resource system and pray for the better. This is to support your point.

Also, ComClash-related - most downed ESFs are restored near instantly in Community Clash. Shared Access to vehicles is OP in this kind of event. 100k CP also have something to do with that. I mean - a medic needs 15k CP tops, so he can easily waste the remaining CP to just fully cert an ESF. This is to disagree with your point.





Post Scriptum: It just gets ignored by pretty much everyone, but the hint here is that A2A missiles are useless against the primary air threat (which would be ESFs). People keep going on about how lock-on is not properly designed, but the truth is - you simply cannot change lock-on in any positive way if damage output of a single rocket launcher is not enough to even scare an ESF away.

[Mastachief]

I'm blaming bad base design, design is bad if vehicles can interfere with the taking of a base by preventing it's defence. SpamMCspamspam.

[Rahabib]

In other competitive games they simply put a limit on the number of a class or vehicle any team could have (eg. only 1 sniper per team). So say for air, they can only have 2-4 per team at any one time. It would be hard to enforce unless they implement it into the match server however.

[Bobby Shaftoe]

In other competitive games they simply put a limit on the number of a class or vehicle any team could have (eg. only 1 sniper per team). So say for air, they can only have 2-4 per team at any one time. It would be hard to enforce unless they implement it into the match server however.

Well then the problem with that is, how do they then 'balance' vehicle weapons.

Say they set AA/Air balance as 1 SG per 2 aircraft. Then they find that ratio is still imbalanced at these numbers, are they then changing weapon balance for the whole game simply due to this very specific problem? It's either that or changing those restriction/ratios by adding actual vehicles which obviously don't have much 'finesse' to their equations. (Ie there's a 5% discrepancy, they then have to go to what, 11 SGs Vs 20 Air...)

Of course they then could just have specific weapon values for 'mlg' but then the game is effectively 2 separate entities then.

Not only that, these 'restrictions' then shoe-horn the game into specific (and I hate using this word for this) 'metas'.

It's pretty obvious just reading this thread, the ideas/suggestions and the general innate knowledge/theory-crafting displayed by people posting here shows how much SOE has to consider just to make 'MLG' even close to being viable, implies its success/workability as being pretty unlikely.

[DredVS]

I believe a more accurate assessment of Nexus will come once SOE introduces the MOBA-style metagame.

Perhaps aircraft won't even be unlocked at the beginning of matches at all, like how in MOBA's, you have to gather a lot of gold to get the big carry items. Aircraft = carry items in the Planetside sense of things.

Who knows. Stacking outfits with ace pilots may be a non-issue in the future. People are just going off of what they have available to them right now. Which is fair, because SOE is not being communicative with us at all on this subject.

[Rolfski]

Well, there is a danger in going out of your way in designing rules (12 vs 12, pilot caps, Moba resource levelling, etc.) that completely alienate from the way the original game is played.

If the MLG game becomes a small scale, 3-lane, FPS Moba with limited hero pilots, than people are for sure going to be disappointed when they give it a try and find out that this game is nothing like that at all. I would defeat the purpose of this whole MLG adventure, which is to draw more people into the original game.

[snafus]

Well, there is a danger in going out of your way in designing rules (12 vs 12, pilot caps, Moba resource levelling, etc.) that completely alienate from the way the original game is played.

If the MLG game becomes a small scale, 3-lane, FPS Moba with limited hero pilots, than people are for sure going to be disappointed when they give it a try and find out that this game is nothing like that at all. I would defeat the purpose of this whole MLG adventure, which is to draw more people into the original game.

Except the true nature of PS2 is so far from competitive that it isn't funny. You either have a smaller more controlled fight or there will be no MLG.

[Bobby Shaftoe]

Perhaps aircraft won't even be unlocked at the beginning of matches at all

There was a PS1 event where all vehicles had to be unlocked via fighting in the caves (I don't know your PS1 experience, but caves were generally smaller instances than conts, somewhat equiv. to 'nexus') in a rough order from ground up to air, the event scoring was bugged/exploited but as soon as one side got AirChav unlocked they basically stomped everyone else into the ground.

Air is such an outrageous force multiplier, it'd be the same as winning a first round in CS then getting full equip/weapons/grenades/quad damage/Tribes skiiing & Aliens motion tracker. Meanwhile the opposition are using pistols.

You can't reward a slight lead/advantage with a sudden overwhelming force multiplier like Air.

Seriously, just look at all the arbitrary 'limits' people are suggesting, just to get this to possibly work.

[Rolfski]

Except the true nature of PS2 is so far from competitive that it isn't funny. You either have a smaller more controlled fight or there will be no MLG.
I think that there is enough competitiveness in the true nature of PS2 (I play competitive with my outfit most of the time), but the point here is that there is limit to how much you can alter this game for e-sports before it stops becoming a showcase for the real game.

[Rahabib]

...Of course they then could just have specific weapon values for 'mlg' but then the game is effectively 2 separate entities then.
...
You expect otherwise? Yea ...

[snafus]

I think that there is enough competitiveness in the true nature of PS2 (I play competitive with my outfit most of the time), but the point here is that there is limit to how much you can alter this game for e-sports before it stops becoming a showcase for the real game.

To make it E-sports viable they have to gut much of the game for viewership to have something worth watching. Normal PS2 combat is simply to unorganized and messy for a competitive nature match. It will either be a small controlled setup or the competitive scene of this game will fail, If it already hasn't.

[MaxDamage]

I've seen Frankie in action. Bit of a stat padder truth be told. When it comes to competitive organised play he just isn't going to contribute anything worthwhile - unless the fight consists of two spawnrooms facing each other firing UBGL or popping carbines whenever someone ventures out.

These sorts of players make high rank fast and have decentish stats but it doesn't translate into serious competitive talent.

[Shamrock]

These sorts of players make high rank fast and have decentish stats but it doesn't translate into serious competitive talent.

I've noticed this when I've bothered to check kill boards on hover spammers and other typical farming methods (harrasers) and noticed once this variety of player is forced to play infantry due to a lack of resources they get torn to pieces by dedicated infantry players. Hell I'm sure some of them just sit out their timers in a spawn waiting for their resources to re-up, in competitive play particularly in the Nexus where resources are on a slow drip, drip, this variety of player and their play style is totally non-viable.

[diLLa]

I've noticed this when I've bothered to check kill boards on hover spammers and other typical farming methods (harrasers) and noticed once this variety of player is forced to play infantry due to a lack of resources they get torn to pieces by dedicated infantry players. Hell I'm sure some of them just sit out their timers in a spawn waiting for their resources to re-up, in competitive play particularly in the Nexus where resources are on a slow drip, drip, this variety of player and their play style is totally non-viable.

This is the reason we don't really look much at stats at all, our judgement is purely on their performance during our ops.

[NewSith]

I've seen Frankie in action. Bit of a stat padder truth be told. When it comes to competitive organised play he* just isn't going to contribute anything worthwhile - unless the fight consists of two spawnrooms facing each other firing UBGL or popping carbines whenever someone ventures out.

These sorts of players make high rank fast and have decentish stats but it doesn't translate into serious competitive talent.

"Damn it, I wish you people would just leave me alone! I… Oh, you're a Necromancer, aren't you? I've heard that your kind use powerful potions and such to wake the threads and view older pages..."

Also |she*|

[raw]

unless the fight consists of two spawnrooms facing each other firing UBGL or popping carbines whenever someone ventures out.


Why do I have the gut feeling this will be what competitive play is all about?


These sorts of players make high rank fast and have decentish stats but it doesn't translate into serious competitive talent.

Tbh, it's enough to buy membership + boost to rank up fast. Both XP and K/D are completely worthless in this game. You'll have to find talent the good 'ol way: spot it.

[bpostal]

I've seen Frankie in action. Bit of a stat padder truth be told. When it comes to competitive organised play he just isn't going to contribute anything worthwhile - unless the fight consists of two spawnrooms facing each other firing UBGL or popping carbines whenever someone ventures out.

These sorts of players make high rank fast and have decentish stats but it doesn't translate into serious competitive talent.

I'm sure Frankies can speak for herself but I do feel the need to point out that not only does she contribute quite a bit to the squad, but she's also among the best medics I've had the pleasure to play with.

[Fara]

How did the thread become all about Frankie? ... Moving on

24v24 seems most viable to me. When INI fought against Future Crew regardless of the Rules/outcome the actual fight was very entertaining for the players involved (myself included). Better tools for potential caster/commentators would probably make people like KidRiots job easier. Multiple feeds cameras etc.

As for 48v48,the concept to me sounds like alot of fun as a 'player'. As a viewer, well it really relies on the tools available and the ability of the caster to translate whats going on to the viewer in an easily digestible format. I'm all for starting with a 24v24 league but would also love to progress to 48v48 either in a mini-league/tournament (dependent on number of participants) or at the very least as a show match to re-preview its potential after said additional esport tools become available.



Another minor thing Pro7, PSU, SoE I think are taking into consideration is the time difference between Europe and USA, the difference of 5~8 hours even with say matches on a Saturday/Sunday means you probably need to split the regions and have an American only and European only league which in turn further splits the limited pool of outfits. Perhaps culminating in a best of playoff at the end of any league.