Biolab got butchered (PTS) [Archive]

Mordelicius

2013-10-24, 07:33 AM

I can't believe what they did to the Biolab.:huh:

- Long Defender Spawn Walk - Spawning in an instance>teleports to underside of the biolab> 2nd teleporter up again to a small spawn room. They want attackers and defenders having equal walk-spawn distance.

If the Generator goes out, vehicles will have a field day killing everyone coming in from the spawnroom to the Biolab underbelly, because the players have to walk across to the next teleporter to get up the Biolab proper.:confused:

- That small spawnroom is a Spawn Camp Festival. Players on the tree root, Balcony. Every choke points coming from the spawn room OPENS up to wide spaces where any attacker can literally stack DPS and obliterate anyone who dares walk through.

Essentially, attackers have superior vantage point in spawncontainment, since the exit points are visible from so many angles.

ZOE Max, Fracture Max, AI&AV Turrets, UBGL, Rocket Launchers, Lashers, Snipers. All you have to do is focus fire on the choke points and the defenders coming out will die a horrible death :eek:

That's not to mention LAs can go to the roof of the adjacent building while defenders don't even have an elevator of the spawn room, wow.

Lastly, those double bridge has complete vantage point of the central area. There's no way defenders can charge through those barriers with players from the bridge.

NC is pretty much screwed here when defending. We don't have a suppression fire Max for Mid-Long range, unlike other Maxes. All they have to do is pair Maxes with engie and spam from the bridge, from the balcony, from top of the stairs and from the doorways and supress movement.

Alot of the windows are shuttered too and balconies boarded up. The Attackers are basically getting funneled to the Spawn Room. Here's this small spawn room the back and the attackers are free to shoot that focal point from at least 180 degrees all over. LAs to the roof, UBGL, Sniper, Fractures, ZOE, RL, Lashers, the whole dps gamut just focus firing on that small area. :doh:.

The reason why the large Spawn Room was installed in the first place was due to chronic and undeniable spawn camping. Now it's gone again, welcome back spawn camping.

All in all, they simply don't want players to farm certs there. It further proves my contention in this thread: http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=56506. Devs are trying to lower our cert gain (but at the cost of degraded gameplay). I'd rather have direct nerf to cert gain that an indirect one. At least we'll have a decent fight instead of 3-5 minute "epic" Biolab skirmish/spawn camping exercise.

NewSith

2013-10-24, 07:56 AM

This just proves once again that returning was a bad idea. Intead of adding MORE defensible designs, they just removed the only base where defenders had advantage over attackers.

Congratulations developers, I am NOT returning to PlanetSide 2, despite my initial desire. And I'll keep telling everyone what a shit of a game it is. Every time you do something right, you feel some URGE to break something with that. No, I am done with that.

DirtyBird

2013-10-24, 08:05 AM

I'm going to give it chance before condemning it, I've only had a brief limited look around it.

ChipMHazard

2013-10-24, 08:15 AM

Yes, it might be a good idea to actually go look at it before jumping to conclusions.
I haven't been in one yet since they've changed it, but should be interesting to see what has changed.

NewSith

2013-10-24, 08:17 AM

I'm going to give it chance before condemning it, I've only had a brief limited look around it.

No offense, but... when you see somebody killing someone, do you also "give him a chance before condemning him, since you've only had a brief limited look at what's going on"?

DirtyBird

2013-10-24, 08:35 AM

No offense, but... when you see somebody killing someone, do you also "give him a chance before condemning him, since you've only had a brief limited look at what's going on"?

I pull out my iphone and take some footage.
Whats your point?

New Biolab Spawn (on PTS) - YouTube

ChipMHazard

2013-10-24, 08:37 AM

No offense, but... when you see somebody killing someone, do you also "give him a chance before condemning him, since you've only had a brief limited look at what's going on"?

What was the point of that? That's a rather loaded question don't you think?

Of course one should gain as much insight into something as possible, or as much as one deems objectively nessecary, before passing the final verdict.

PredatorFour

2013-10-24, 08:41 AM

To be fair this sounds horrendous. Whoever makes the design decisions for this game have been slowly ruining it since release. If it wasn't for community backlash's, this game would be in a much worse state than it is now.

NewSith

2013-10-24, 08:42 AM

I'm just tired of being constructive. All constructiveness gets buried under tons of "finally no more pointless Biolab farms! GJ SOE!"

ChipMHazard

2013-10-24, 08:46 AM

What's the point in having defenders run so far, and through the vehicle bay to get to the spawn room exit. If the plan was to allow defenders to have more of a choice as to where to go then why not just have two teleporters: One going to the vehicle bay and the other going to the exit.

The current design is just going to get camped by Harassers and Sundies with diffusers.

ringring

2013-10-24, 08:50 AM

Well I stopped playing anyway.

If I was to return good bases would be one of the things that would do it, but this doesn't look like an improvement.

Of the main bases Bio Labs had the best fights. Of course local population ratios affected things so if the attackers didn't bring enough they got farmed and quite right too.

Calista

2013-10-24, 09:03 AM

What the heck? Do they seriously have those arrows painted on the walls and floors or was that someone's magical video effects?

ringring

2013-10-24, 09:08 AM

What the heck? Do they seriously have those arrows painted on the walls and floors or was that someone's magical video effects?

From memory those are in the Interlink on Hossin too.

Omnimon

2013-10-24, 09:08 AM

If anything gate diffuser certs on a harasser or sunderer will literally alter the tide of battle for the attackers . Don't even need to bring the gens down , just 4 players ( or even 2 ) will shut down a base defense for the majority of the defenders . If this goes in the majority of the PS2 bases ( save a few ) will be far more defendable then this base type .

This change will however lessen the impact of max crashes greatly. Of all the places to max crash this would be the base to do it ( in the current biolab incarnation ) . Now with the changes, save for some certain bases on esamir ( and even then just using overwhelming air power's more effective ), Max crashes would still affect the game, its just not a very good use of resources/manpower anymore .

Why even spend thousands of infantry resources ( that might or might not be successful in attacking/ defending ) when a cert investment + less then 1k vehicle resources would accomplish what would require an more organization / teamwork for the attackers to take over a major base ?

If these changes go through, defending bases will be discouraged even more . As it is playing on several servers , most of the fights don't even last beyond CS match / QL dueling time limitations even . ( most fights not counting spawn camping usually last 2-5 minutes tops if even that , usually shorter then your average CS match/map ) . Seems to be a far cry from what I've seen in PS1 fights , " fast food " really . Fights in most cases comes down to :

1) If the attackers can spawn camp the defenders faster versus :
2) the defenders who can abuse squad deploy / beacon mechanics to blow up a sunderer with mines/ C4 .

If the devs want the bases to mean something, these mechanics are just going to discourage defending and encourage more zerging . With all the pros there are for attacking, why even defend ? Frankly i'd rather them change spawn beacons / squad deploy instead of changing the base designs that favor vehicle spawn camping even more .

Calista

2013-10-24, 09:19 AM

From memory those are in the Interlink on Hossin too.

I don't even know what to say about that. Kinda cheesy looking but I guess that helps new players or something? Would sort of indicate to me that maybe base design is a little too complex? I know from experience that things are far too scattered and cluttered but arrows telling me where to go? I guess next it will be like a hospital where you have colored coded lines on the walls and floors to direct you to various objectives?

Babyfark McGeez

2013-10-24, 09:43 AM

Oh gee...the only good thing i saw in that video were the arrows.
Those are admittedly a VERY good thing though and need to be put into every base, with short a short "info" added as to where you end up going ("vehicle gen" ->, "cap point" ->, etc.).

But why "fix" what wasn't broken? Biolabs were fine, nobody complained about them. This new design once more shoots defenders in the foot (like so many other bases) and butchers the whole place into a "might aswell spawn elsewhere" spot. Blergh. I'm also glad i barely log on these days when i see that.

ChipMHazard

2013-10-24, 09:59 AM

Nobody complaining about the previous Bio Lab design? Uhm, ok...:/

There were a lot of complaints about the old level design. :p

Stanis

2013-10-24, 10:10 AM

Having jumped on the PTS to take a look at this ..

There is an annoying time sink. Running from new spawn room to teleporter .. to get to base of building. WHY ? There is no fighting in this area.

Move the spawn room to the base/ground level and add 5 seconds to the respawn timer if that's what you want.

The teleporter mechanics and yellow arrows .. pretty naff.

Further it seems like every other area has had additional cover added, removing line of sight - making the fights very much CQC focussed.

Once again the 'spawn room' on the main biolab level is now surrounded by an open killing field. Without any good lines of fire to key objectives : like the spawn generator.

It might be fun to fight over. Testing will demonstrate that. It might make satellites far more important. GSD will have a HUGE impact now.

But overall it seems like a timesink and a big win for an aggressive attacking force. The defenders have to play whack-a-mole once again without what seems like a clear 'home advantage'.

bpostal

2013-10-24, 10:15 AM

What the heck? Do they seriously have those arrows painted on the walls and floors or was that someone's magical video effects?

I'm not a fan of those arrows. To me if feels almost condescending. Of course, I'm also not a fan of the extra 20 seconds walk/teleport time they added to defenders.

The spawn room is slightly better than the teleporter rooms in the biolab, but I still like to refer to stuff like that as 'rape rooms' because that's what happens.

Nobody complaining about the previous Bio Lab design? Uhm, ok...:/

There were a lot of complaints about the old level design. :p

I think that's mostly the player mindset shift that occurred with the launch of PS2. In Planetside a fight that lasted for hours could be referred to as 'epic' (also, boring as hell if you can't get into the lobby after several hours because thumper) whereas in PS2 any fight that lasts more than a half hour (45 min for the patient people) is too tough and needs to be nerfed right meow!

I'm gonna play it out and see what happens.

KesTro

2013-10-24, 10:27 AM

Babyfark McGeez

2013-10-24, 10:50 AM

Nobody complaining about the previous Bio Lab design? Uhm, ok...:/

There were a lot of complaints about the old level design. :p

Oh? I gotta admit i wasn't aware that there were a lot of complaints about them.
The only complaint i remember was that people preferred to go to them and thus drained the population a bit like the crown did. However in this case i saw that more as a compliment that fights actually lasted there because biolabs as "major" bases should have more lasting fights.

Biolabs felt like one of the few bases that actually provided defenders with a fair chance. I dunno, maybe it was a bit too extreme, never felt that way to me though. And judging by the video posted in here we are now at the other extreme, defenders having a harder time getting to the objective than attackers.
...much like all the other roflstomp-fights-over-in-three-minutes "bases" we have. I actually got to a point where i simply refused to spawn at certain bases and instead went elsewhere or a base further back and just waited three minutes.

EDIT: I gotta point out that i'm just going by what i saw in the vid though. I have to playtest it sometime to see how exactly it plays out (but my impression is "bad").

Carbon Copied

2013-10-24, 11:04 AM

I'll broach the question of "How is this going to make bio-labs any more enjoyable / balanced / interesting when continental lattice drops in excess of 500 players on a bio lab?" once again; because I'm yet to see a valid answer from a design perspective.

Arrows guiding people look amateurish re-inforcing that deathmatch arena guise.
Spawn coffins. Subject has been done to death.
Didn't think it was possible but somehow there's even less suspension of disbelief that this is a functioning facility and is now no more than a collection of huts under a dome instead of on the surface of Auraxis.
Looks to be reduced clutter around the main area which creates a no man's land and time sink for defenders on their primary denial target.

Just seems like a substantial waste of time and resources when they should be working towards something polished and definitive. Rather disappointed so I'll hang on for Rev. 3.5 after continental lattice forces it I think.

Boomzor

2013-10-24, 11:17 AM

I'd rather see this in Amp stations and Tech plants, cause it is a better solution than the tunnels. That is, if it weren't for the spawn coffins they end up in.

But in Biolabs?

GraniteRok

2013-10-24, 11:18 AM

I never saw an issue with the current Biolab design. Why the need for the change other than the safe access to the vehicle terms? Simple fix for that would be to move the vehicle teleporter into the spawn room and it's all good.

SolLeks

2013-10-24, 11:59 AM

I swear I have to be one of the only people that likes this change. At least the idea of this change. I say that being primarily an infantry player. The problem with biolabs is that there was so many bodies in them and they could get there so quickly that a lot of times attackers couldn't get a foothold in a Biolab. Were this still the hex system, no biggy we'll push around it enough and force them to start spreading out.

Maybe it's just me being bitter but I see this change as a direct cause of the lattice, where you can't avoid the fight (And to the people who will comment, why would you fight something you're horribly outmatched with if there was another option? There is no option now).

That being said it does seem like the defenders are being put at too much of a disadvantage as is. Perhaps if the vehicle bay shields couldn't go down it might be a little more fair - and while I doubt this would ever make it in game it would be interesting to see what might happen with the removal of the FOB teleport rooms and the return of the opening at the tip of the Biolab with this spawn change.

to be honest, I am with you on this one. I like the intent of the change, the defenders no longer can just step outside to their SCU and have a direct line of sight to it, instead, they have to take as much time as the attackers to get back into the fight and there for it makes for a better sounding battle flow. Before you would need to kill each defender about 2 to 3 times for every attacker killed to get an equal effect as they use to spawn just about right next to where they just died. Maybe this is partly an outfit-x thing as we all hate biofarms, its no fun to farm and no fun to get farmed, and the current lab leads directly to zerg gameplay and has no room for small squads that really make a difference outside of the generator point. once you get to the SCU, defenders can send a hand nade, walk back in their spawn, send another nade rinse and repeat.

HereticusXZ

2013-10-24, 12:06 PM

I absolutely -hate- the current Biolabs because only attackers suffer gross bottlenecks creating stupidly frustrating long sieges that waist the Empires time, resources and manpower that could be used at other fights. I avoid Bio-Labs like the plague, I refuse to fight at them.

I love the new changes because it makes Defenders have to run the same distance attackers have to in order to get to the objectives and it makes defenders face bottlenecks similar to what attackers have to face to get into the Bio-Lab.

My critique of it however is the Dome area itself looks a little empty, I want more cover, and the Defenders need more teleporter pods otherwise they will face a extremely stupid spawn camp in the form of Gate-Shield Diffuser Sunderer w/ Fury x2. Because of the bottleneck in the garage that defenders might face they might want to increase the Bio-Lab cap time by atleast 1 more minute.

I might actually touch Bio-Labs again

ChipMHazard

2013-10-24, 12:28 PM

Oh? I gotta admit i wasn't aware that there were a lot of complaints about them.
The only complaint i remember was that people preferred to go to them and thus drained the population a bit like the crown did. However in this case i saw that more as a compliment that fights actually lasted there because biolabs as "major" bases should have more lasting fights.

Biolabs felt like one of the few bases that actually provided defenders with a fair chance. I dunno, maybe it was a bit too extreme, never felt that way to me though. And judging by the video posted in here we are now at the other extreme, defenders having a harder time getting to the objective than attackers.
...much like all the other roflstomp-fights-over-in-three-minutes "bases" we have. I actually got to a point where i simply refused to spawn at certain bases and instead went elsewhere or a base further back and just waited three minutes.

EDIT: I gotta point out that i'm just going by what i saw in the vid though. I have to playtest it sometime to see how exactly it plays out (but my impression is "bad").

From what I remember most of the complaints seem to have been centered around a few different issues.

Bio Lab fights could become too hard for the attackers to win mainly because of the layout allowing for defenders to camp the attackers' entrances too easily. Just becomes a question of camping the teleporter rooms and pads.
On the flip side it was too easy to camp the defenders inside their spawn.
There being too many open killing zones with not enough cover.

The Bio Lab suffers from the same issue that every other base/facility suffers from.
Like you wrote Bio Lab fights attract a lot of people, probably because of the farming prospect (Much to the detriment of the war effort:p). Ending up with too many players in one spot. It clearly wasn't designed to hold so many players. Only thing that can possible fix that is the revamped resource system.

Overall I'm not terribly fond of Bio Lab fights... Or rather I don't like them when they become too big, especially when they are NC held.:p At that point I think they just turn into farming fights. I like them just fine, well ok'ish, when the size is more reasonable, since they offer an isolated environment for infantry to fight in.
I would still prefer to see something more interesting being done to the flow, akin to what Figment has suggested in the past.

AuntLou

2013-10-24, 12:28 PM

This is what happens when they let the whiners get to them. There are plenty of people including myself that think the bio labs are fine as is. They are going to ruin the only good infantry fight in the game.

The only thing a bio lab needs is to have the outposts be taken out of the lattice allowing them to be all capped and used during an assault.

PredatorFour

2013-10-24, 12:44 PM

Im sorry but i don't get people moaning about bases being 'too hard' too attack. Is that not the point of a base ???

The bio lab is the last frontier of 'defendable' bases. Please don't change it.

Rolfski

2013-10-24, 01:11 PM

Tbh, I think it's a bit early to already put the bitter-vet hat up and stomp this design into the ground. I'd say let's see more how it plays out before jumping to conclusions. What's the point of condemning something beforehand if you haven't played it?

As for my initial impressions, they are not too bad actually. The long walking distance from spawn for sure feels artificial and annoying, but on the other hand I definitely noticed already less camping at teleporter rooms. And the low open area gives potential for more ranged and therefore varied infantry fights, which is welcom imo.

Time will tell.

typhaon

2013-10-24, 01:42 PM

We'll have to see. My first impression is that I agree with OP.

But... didn't get a chance for a "real" play test.... just Allatum defended by 50% ZOE MAXes (these really need to be fixed) and being attacked by 25% NC and 25% TR.

Suffice to say, the defenders were doing fine.

I suspect under most normal game situations, BL will be pretty hard to defend, now.

SolLeks

2013-10-24, 02:01 PM

ringring

2013-10-24, 02:18 PM

As a rule of thumb I reckoned Bio's were very defensible until attackers got to a 60:40 ratio of attackers to defenders.

Very similar to Interlinks in PS1. But what did we have extra to enable Interlinks to be taken? Base drains and Routers, PS2 needs those or similar. (They also needs techplants and Amps to be buffed.)

Lonehunter

2013-10-24, 02:23 PM

This is horrible. Why increase the walk time? If you want to punish defenders why not just increase the respawn time? (Because that's too blatantly a nerf) You're immune inside that spawn, so it's just an extra annoying step to get back to combat. Then going through the bottom level, which could be easily controlled by vehicles, is ridiculous. Then they even change the building in the dome to a tiny spawn, which will now be so much easier to control as an assaulting faction.

Every time I check in on PS2 news again I get disappointed lol

Hmr85

2013-10-24, 02:43 PM

Rahabib

2013-10-24, 02:49 PM

They are going to have to make those shields below the Bio impassable by shield diffused Sundys or Harrassers.
agreed
I'm telling ya right now. As soon as a group of players half way organized figure out that they just need to go there and lock down the teleporter it is over. Also, have the generator not disable the shield below the Bio. I see that as a huge flaw with the current Bio layout. Otherwise from what I can tell from the videos it looks fine.
or make it so that the generators can be held much better, perhaps make it so they have to take down multiple generators or have it so that the defenders can get there quicker (another teleport room?). Maybe we get better fights around the gen as a result.

Anyway, I would have to test it before I can condemn it, but it could be fixed even if its as bad as everyone says.

typhaon

2013-10-24, 03:10 PM

They are going to have to make those shields below the Bio impassable by shield diffused Sundys or Harrassers.

I'm telling ya right now. As soon as a group of players half way organized figure out that they just need to go there and lock down the teleporter it is over. Also, have the generator not disable the shield below the Bio. I see that as a huge flaw with the current Bio layout. Otherwise from what I can tell from the videos it looks fine.

Excluding the shield issue, which you are totally right about....

My thoughts are that in "normal" gameplay - it will be a lot harder for defenders to respond to any kind of organized attack on a BL, because the points will likely be captured and defenses setup around the shield room - before defenders can even start respawning.... And given the 3 min timer.. the fights will be over in a flash.

Timed out the run... the new location effectively adds 20 seconds to respawn times for defenders in the BL.

Illtempered

2013-10-24, 04:02 PM

Jonny

2013-10-24, 04:21 PM

I'd love to hear a dev comment on the reasoning behind this one.

It's a mind boggling design decision which seems to just create more problems. Did the reasoning go like this?

"I know, instead of fixing the spawn camping issues in this game, lets make the room the defenders exit from in the biolabs even smaller and easier to camp. Then lets make them have a long, boring and frankly stupid run following yellow arrows through some spawn room, up stairs (why have a teleporter upstairs which only takes you 1/3 the way there, who designed this?) through one easily campable teleporter in the garage, then finally to that small exit in the biolab. There, FIXED!"

That being said i've not played it yet so who knows it could be good...just judging this based on how it looks. :P

Calista

2013-10-24, 04:41 PM

As a staunch supporter of this game early on, these devs continue to amaze me with how little they understand their own game. Like the 3 minute cap timer didn't make biolabs easy enough to take?

Unf#$%ingbelievable

I'm starting to think that things like this are being done for the PS4 attention deficit crowd. If they aren't running and gunning every second they just lose interest and logoff.

Rat

2013-10-24, 05:27 PM

[QUOTE=Hmr85;947497]They are going to have to make those shields below the Bio impassable by shield diffused Sundys or Harrassers.

Might be fun farming vehicles as they come thru the shield.

Wargrim

2013-10-24, 05:28 PM

Just watching a video of this change is enough to make me ask the person that is responsible for this change... on what kind of drugs are you???

This is the single most retarded base design i have seen in PS2 so far, and that is saying a lot for a game that has some of the worst base designs i have ever seen in any game ever.

I mean seriously? You have to walk up a long set of stairs, and through TWO teleporters JUST TO LEAVE A SPAWN ROOM? Seriously????

Only to enter into a spawncamp heaven killzone without cover? IF you do not get vehicle - spawn - camp - killed even before reaching the inside of the Biolab BY VEHICLES YOU CAN NOT SEE BEFORE STEPPING THROUGH THE FIRST TELEPORTER, AND CAN NOT AVOID BECAUSE THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE ROUTE???

Have you ever though about the idea, that if you want to increase the distance / walking time to the objectives for the defenders, said distance and walking time should be OUTSIDE of the spawn room/area, and not inside where there is either ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAPPENING or you get VEHICLE SPAWNCAMPED BEHIND A TELEPORTER???

The ONLY positive thing i can interpret into this is the potential to redo it again. Scrap the big spawn room completely. Use the won space to make some cool changes. Let defenders spawn in the small room as it is now, but add cover around it so it is not a deathtrap / spawncamp heaven. If you think the defenders have too short of a walk, move the control points closer to the entrance points of attackers. Use the won space by removing the big spawn to move buildings / change layouts around, if you need it to make the new locations for the control points more fun places for fights.

OR JUST KEEP THE OLD DESIGN THAT IS MASSIVELY SUPERIOR TO THIS CRAP, even when it is severely flawed combined with the current the lattice implementation, meaning you only attack through one or at most 2 teleporters, when the really old system allowed you to capture all outposts and then push through 3 teleporters, the best version of Biolabs we ever had.

This change is downright insulting, it is that stupid. Case in point? This layout makes so little sense, you actually have to paint big yellow arrows on the floor to explain HOW TO LEAVE A SPAWN ROOM.

This change should never make its way to life in the current form.

AThreatToYou

2013-10-24, 05:36 PM

This is it. PS2 is dieing.

The sentence has just been stamped. We're on our way to the gas chamber, through however many months of prison...

Omnimon

2013-10-24, 06:03 PM

If they wanted make defending tougher ( without giving attackers a huge advantage ) , as suggested before they should move the defender spawn point AWAY from control / teleporter rooms. Infact the control rooms should be closer to the attacker's shield rooms instead .

This design ? The moment ONE player or two figures out that a harasser / sunderer with shield breaker + whatever AI / AV weapon mounted , could *possibly * halt the defence of an entire base for multiple squads . Those kind of gameplay mechanics are something that needs to be shifted AWAY from . ( ditto with squad leader / spawn drop pod mechanics versus sunderers, the power one person has to alter an entire battle easily , its too much and too abuseable given that players take time to render after the drop pod hits the ground , meanwhile they're free to do anything for more then a few seconds...... ) .

We saw that early on with liberators ( and the coffins of death those spawns were ) , why introduce that again , but with harassers + sunderers ?

The devs who designed this, do they even play their own game ? I don't know if bases are intended to be defended at all or not at this point .

Bobby Shaftoe

2013-10-24, 06:03 PM

OctavianAXFive

2013-10-24, 06:10 PM

I hopped on PTS and took a poke around.

This is what I think best sums up the situation in terms of base design as a whole.

http://thepatriotperspective.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/manbearpig.jpg

Kill it with fire.*

more constructive stuff coming soon

Babyfark McGeez

2013-10-24, 06:40 PM

I think it's getting obvious that the PSU community is going to have to type up specifications for every single aspect of the game (or what you want changed) and go into extreme detail (ie placement of specific cover objects) for the SOE guys to follow it step by step, because they appear to not have a clue.

The thing is, we did all that. Like A YEAR ago when this thing was still in, ahum, "beta".
Do you remember figment (who seems to have given up a long time ago - who can blame him) and his incredibly detailed and visually aided threads? And all the other people (myself included) who continued to point out the obvious flaws in their base- and map design and offered possible solutions to the many, many problems of this inconsistent mess.

Personally i got tired of this. Incomptence, ignorance? I don't give a shit anymore. Tons of good threads are on this forum. If they want to salvage their crap they can go look for them.
I will continue to log into the game from time to time, close my eyes for the title screen and pretend i just play some F2P Call of Duty which has not "Planetside" in its name so i don't desecrate my memory of one of the best games i ever played.

LeilaniRock

2013-10-24, 06:57 PM

Not sure how many of you actually played for some time on the test today.But Allatum.was good fights for at least 2hrs with ownership going back and forth.Defender spawn is a bit meh,but i never got camped in the inside dome spawn as of now

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

NewSith

2013-10-24, 07:09 PM

GeoGnome

2013-10-24, 07:43 PM

Rivenshield

2013-10-24, 07:52 PM

I'm starting to think that things like this are being done for the PS4 attention deficit crowd. If they aren't running and gunning every second they just lose interest and logoff.

That's my best guess, unfortunately.

Anyone who's ever worked in corporate America can tell there are two distinct factions at work on the dev team. You could call one the Traditionalists. They see nothing wrong with borrowing proven game mechanics from the first game, and a certain amount of defensibility is at the top of the list. So is a strategic metagame. And they've had a tough time keeping their heads above water since day one.

You could call the other the eSports Groupies. These are the people who were initially in control -- who gave us bases with no freaking gates and Galaxy spawn points. OFFENSE OFFENSE OFFENSE! Run and gun! Dynamic gameplay uber alles! They experienced a bit of a setback early this year, when after months of mockingly telling us LOLNO they resurrected the lattice and gave us a more or less mixed bag of base redesigns.

With the approach of the PS4 (and with Smed stuck on stupid thinking that a free-to-play Planetside 2 must be good to go for the PS4 release, rather than giving a shrunken dev team another badly-needed six months or so), we're going to see two things:

1) A rushed, badly-implemented, buggy intercontinental lattice.

2) A lot more beta-style nerfing of anything that impedes forward movement, much less sitting and thinking for a few seconds. That's what they think the console crowd must have or they'll instabail. (I frankly disagree. Challenge them for once and they will love it.)

I tried to log onto the test server just now to see for myself. It took five minutes. The lag time to load any screen or pull up any console panel was unendurable. Went to Hossin to check out the new cont. Saw the 'TR Forward Garrison' is sandwiched for some strange reason between the other two empires' warpgates. Looked for a fight; saw none. Couldn't even muster up the mild curiosity to step outside and see the long-touted Fourth Continent. Logged.

I'm not even in bittervet mode any more. I'm simply bored, and feel a certain abstract sense of regret at seeing what was a fantastic franchise drive itself off a cliff due to shitty management.

ItZMuRdA

2013-10-24, 08:05 PM

Solid thread going on here. For what it's worth, I made my sneak peek and first impression commentary video when I got home from work, so I thought I'd share. Keep that feedback coming -- devs will listen!

PlanetSide 2 - New Bio Lab Sneak Peek & First Impression Commentary - YouTube

Bobby Shaftoe

2013-10-24, 08:42 PM

Like A YEAR ago

That's the equiv. of the Hitchhiker's Guide planning office.

It was pretty obvious back in beta they would have to remake the game to actually get it in any sort of state similar to the original, attempts to 'listen' to the player base viz. Lattice result in appalling execution because it's simply layered on top of maps for completely different 'strategic'/designed play.

They don't have the resources to implement 'big' changes more than one at a time, each one simply makes the game 'worse' because it doesn't fit in with the majority of what's already in place.

Really defensible bases are simply a roadblock in lattice 'strategic' play because there is no mechanic present to take that base through draining which lacks the subsequent counter play of resupplying etc.

They didn't have the 'complexity'/foundation in their original design which simply meant that the vast majority of changes people suggested were a waste of time in the first place, they simply could not be implemented without being almost entirely detrimental to existing gameplay.

Carbon Copied

2013-10-24, 08:56 PM

@Itzmurda

Interesting view to take on the cover of the spawn rooms in the main bio area when the props actively funnel defenders out into a rocket, C4 and UBGL wielding force's wet dream with a follow through of small arms fire. The spawn isn't "hard to get to" you yourself jet pack onto a building directly overlooking it and pass an adjacent hut thats begging for people to be camping both on top and in.

I'm curious as well to ask why you think the attacking force is suddenly going to sit back at the objective area in this new cover and not actively spawn camp (around 17:52) - am I going to sit back with the objective and let them get out of spawn or will I move past the objective and start up the turkey shoot before they get anywhere? This is a no brainer I would have thought.

I don't think you look at this critically enough beyond "it's an annoyance to get out of spawn as I'm an aggressive player". Bio labs I agree aren't the most compelling of fights but this swings the pendulum to completely the opposite end of the spectrum. Long term; how long do you think this design will remain viable i.e come concentrated head on lattice linked fights between factions in an intercontinental evolved game with an increase of player concentration?

All I see are more band aids - tourniquet and rebuild.

NewSith

2013-10-24, 08:56 PM

It should be mentioned that I joined the PS2 community in December of last year.

At the time, people told me to disregard the PSU Community as being completely full of people who were were too in love with the game to be objective.

Hencefourth they have have kind of been the canary in the coal mine for me. The fact that this is absolutely getting torn to shreds by the PSU crowd, should tell people at SOE that this wasn't a great change.

You got it all wrong. The opinions of PSU are considered too conservative/elitist/theoretical/whatever. Here are opinions that matter:
http://dk.reddit.com/r/Planetside/

As much as I love Maggy for being one of the devs who actually considers this place to be a valid source of information, other devs don't really take anything said here seriously. Mainly because "PSU Community is completely full of people who were are too in love with the game to be objective" or in other words "not mainstream players".

Taramafor

2013-10-24, 09:16 PM

http://dk.reddit.com/r/Planetside/[/url]

I think I just felt my IQ drop. :huh:

Haven't managed to get in a biolab fight yet but can't wait to see how botched up this all is.

GeoGnome

2013-10-24, 09:32 PM

You got it all wrong. The opinions of PSU are considered too conservative/elitist/theoretical/whatever. Here are opinions that matter:
http://dk.reddit.com/r/Planetside/

As much as I love Maggy for being one of the devs who actually considers this place to be a valid source of information, other devs don't really take anything said here seriously. Mainly because "PSU Community is completely full of people who were are too in love with the game to be objective" or in other words "not mainstream players".

Reddit agrees with you guys like... all the time.

I guess that means you are a mainstream gamer.

...Get out you mainstream shill.

NewSith

2013-10-24, 09:37 PM

Reddit agrees with you guys like... all the time.

I guess that means you are a mainstream gamer.

...Get out you mainstream shill.

Not true. Do a search for a biolab post there and just compare the average response.

GeoGnome

2013-10-24, 09:56 PM

Not true. Do a search for a biolab post there and just compare the average response.

I did... I'm seeing the exact same complaints here that I see there.

And I'm seeing the exact same complaints on the PS2 forums.

It's almost like... *GASP* People don't like the biolab changes!

The only real difference between the 3 forums, is that the PS2 forums are caustic to the point of hilarity, here people are much more open to discussion, and reddit is kind of in the middle. I would say that the proper forums are much worse than reddit, to the point it's driven most of the developers from commenting there (As we have heard from the developers). Malorn, clegg, and Luperza comment here more often than they do on the PS2 forums.

capiqu

2013-10-24, 10:12 PM

No me gusta! What happened to dual spawn rooms? Maybe making it so that the attackers can hack one Spawn Room. Saunders are too far, to easy to spot and too easy to blow up. Especially with C4. Another point is, if the Bio labs benefit is quicker respawn time than why would you slow down the defenders spawn time. Why give an advantage than counter it?

AThreatToYou

2013-10-24, 10:29 PM

It is more that a few things are really bad and a few things are ok.

For one, the force field over one of the points I do not support. I would much rather the CP made into a single-entry hut (with a roof) than see this glaring dumbass force field in the middle of a biolab. That thing really looks like it has no purpose.

The walls bordering the entry on the airpads I like. I could narc about aesthetics here like I did before, but at least these things should work.
The anti-camp roof over the teleporter tucked away in a corner I like very much.

Ultimately, with the spawn room, there should be another wall around the spawn room shields to prevent folks shooting out of the spawn. That way you have to risk death in order to defend. In its current incantation, the sides of the spawn room that are of very little tactical or strategic importance are going to be easier to defend than the front, which obviously stands between the spawn and the SCU. If we had any compromise, reverse the position of the walls to cover the sides of the spawn rather than the crucial point between the SCU and them.

Conversely, making the attacker's teleporters harder to camp has them risk death more often in the case of a stalemate, because in order to "attack", they will have to leave their little hut. This I support because if the current owners actually bother to defend, more kills will happen in the area due to the attackers being outside of an indestructible hut. More kills is more certs.

The long-walk and teleport to vehicle bay, of course, absolutely must be fixed.

Rolfski

2013-10-24, 10:36 PM

Say about reddit what you want but the people who post there at least PLAY the game. How can you expect the devs to take your feedback about this bio lab design seriously when you haven't logged in for months and don't even bother to check these changes?

Anyway, back on topic:

Spawn walk: Looks boring now but might turn out to be not that big of a deal.
Diffuser shield camping: I'm slightly worried about this one as well. On the other hand though, it could result in more smaller battles at the satellites/pads to secure bio lab access points. Therefore, secondary objectives for smaller teams, which we all know are very welcome.
Short cap timer: This can be easily fixed.
Spawn camping inside the dome: I'm not feeling it, so many covered exits. Time will tell.
Too big of an attacker advantage: This is a delicate balance but in the end, I rather have a battle going back and forth for 2 hours (as in the example above) vs a 2hr stand still at a single choke point (current bio labs).

maradine

2013-10-24, 10:38 PM

I haven't played test yet, so I can't contribute anything concrete other than this general assertion:

If the defenders of a fortification can't hold out against an equally skilled and manned force until one of the prior two preconditions changes, you don't have a fortification. Might as well call it the Smash TV Arena and get a gameshow host to throw money around.

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/user/2/25509-100140-goodluckyoullneeditPNG-468x.jpg

DredVS

2013-10-25, 12:34 AM

Good thing this is on the PTS and didn't make it to live yet, because the devs need to know this is one of the worst ways to piss off Planetside players, is to nerf base design.

The spawn room changes need to be reverted. Parts of the inside are for the better, such the overshield inbetween the double bridges, but the spawn room changes definitely need to be reverted.

Mordelicius

2013-10-25, 04:44 AM

That new Biolab Spawn Room area (teleporter room inside the Dome, not the hidden spawn room) is unsalvageable.

Reasons: (using Indar Allatum as model).
- As soon as you exit, the left side is wide open to pretty much any form of infantry attack.
- If you go to the front building, the right side door is wide open to UBGL, RL from the tree roots, LA on the tree, Snipers etc.
- If you manage to survive that, the immediate front outside wall of that same building is a practically a safe zone for the enemy to camp, you are basically surrounded almost 270 degrees all over upon exiting that front building.
- If you exit the spawn and turn left instead, the left side is full exposed, LAs will be free on the C roof, and still get shot from the doorway and C balcony.
- Defenders have no access to high buildings while attackers have very close access, giving them decisive control of the rooftops.
- The front building of the Spawn Room will be camped by C4 wielding LAs.
- The back area will be spam camped all the same by every implements and weapons available.
- The defender teleporter room do not even have an elevator to the 2nd floor of that room.
- LAs coming from the defender spawn will be shot from attacker LAs from the roof of C and tree branches.

solution: The Large Spawn Building has to return. It's the only way to stop spawn camping without creating a new spawn room system from scratch. That's why it was created in the first place. There's no reasonable/available amount of cover that can be subtituted for that building.

In live servers, attacker LAs already swarm the roof of C (and every roof there is), rocks across that, SCU tower, the trees branches and any high ground that can be had, so they can shoot/c4 players coming from spawn. The Developers should at the very least know this.

Players cannot be allowed to stand on that double bridge shield.

Maxes will be lined up while Engineers and Healers will crouch on that shield effectively hidden from view while the Maxes (except NC's) slaughter everything below. That area will be basically a shooting platform for the attacker while the middle and the back are their "safe" healing/repairing zone.

solution: The shield can act as a shield BUT players CANNOT stand on top and will go through if they try to. The only reason why that bridge area is not as utilized on live like that is that resser/repairers are far too exposed to keep a Max spam sustainable.

The boarded up window is on C Allatum must be reopened.

Once C is captured, the doors will be spammed so noone else can come in from the top of the stair platform. That windows allow defenders to shoot gun, rockets, UBGL, grenades against the players (esp. Maxes camping there). It's alway a window for an LA to get it and chuck C4 (as well as the balcony from the other side). Again the developers have to know what the players do with that window in the first place.

I'm not going to expound on the first teleport downstair coming from the new spawn room everyone is agreement by now that it's a disaster waiting to happen. One can literally fit 3 AI/AV turret along the girth of that corridor ( I tested it), that's aside of the vehicles that can pummel that hole.

Not all changes are awful though. Some improvements:

- The shielded areas coming in from the air platforms will afford attackers cover and allow them better entrance to the Biolab.
- The ground and roof covers for attacker spawn room is a welcome addition as well.

Lastly:
1. The Devs really have to play PS2 if they want to better design the game. Judging from the broken game balances (Harassers, Marauder H, ZOE, Vulcan H, AV Mana, SVA, Fracture etc), and now this, it's obvious they don't. The Harassers and ZOE alone we tested as brokenly OP in the PTS even before they were released. A player either see, use or get hit by these weapons. The only logical explanation is the Devs don't see, use or get hit by it because they don't even play their own game.

A less likelier scenarios is the Devs play and see it but don't care or the Devs play and see it but don't think it's OP. Hence, they don't even play their own game.

There's no graphs or charts or VR weapon testing that can substitute to actual first-hand experience of the game, live.
2. Devs can't hurt gameplay in an effort to lower cert gain rate. If they want to lower cert gain, do it directly or limit xp earned through the killxp cooldown mechanic.
3. Devs shouldn't fix what's not broken (the NDZ is another example). Even with community resistance to the NDZ (2:1 voting NO on the Roadmap), it was released. No logical argument against it was even considered or refuted (just flat out ignored).

The Biolab is one of the last iconic locations in PS2. You've already killed our beloved Crown.

If the bases are a row of sandcastles, the best sandcastle will attract the most viewers. Now instead of improving the other sandcastle to the quality of the popular one, they would rather stomp it to the ground so it becomes less attractive. :lol: That's what happened to the Crown and that's what's they are planning on the Biolab.

KesTro

2013-10-25, 07:26 AM

If the bases are a row of sandcastles, the best sandcastle will attract the most viewers. Now instead of improving the other sandcastle to the quality of the popular one, they would rather stomp it to the ground so it becomes less attractive. :lol: That's what happened to the Crown and that's what's they are planning on the Biolab.

We lost that with the lattice though. If every base was up to snuff with that one base than no one would ever get anywhere.

*edit* And I mean that in terms of defensibility.

Natir

2013-10-25, 08:41 AM

So my first impression was just that I literally laughed out loud. They force you to spawn, run upstairs to teleport downstairs to then teleport upstairs to a tiny spawn room which can very easily be camped even more. Seems like a waste and whoever thought that was a good idea... well, I am not even going to say what I think about them.

I think what I like the most is that the defenders are literally fucked. They get a giant dildo shoved up their ass if the shield gen is down. Who thought that was a good idea... Seriously.. Any person who actually plays this game would know this is a bad idea. Note I said any person who actually plays. I have a pretty good conspiracy theory that not a lot of devs really play their own game and thus, leads you to ideas such as this.

With this change, it really just seems SOE is trying to cater more towards a casual player who doesn't want to work as much for that victory. Now, I should mention that Planetside 2 is its own special kind of game when it comes to this. The game is all about numbers, not tactics. If you are the attacker, you will need a larger force to push out an enemy and vice versa. If 48 people are defending and you brought 24, you will more than likely loose 90% of the time, assuming all these players are of roughly the same skill.

Biolabs right now are one of those bases that if you do not have a substantially larger number than the defenders, you simply will not take it.

I do agree with just about everything Murda said. A big problem with the facilities, and even other bases, is that there are way too many entry ways and it makes for actually defending points very hard. Think of it like a lockdown max. Really, there are not a lot of places a MAX can lockdown without facing the potential RNF from behind. Just an example.

Overall, nice changes for attackers while hurting defenders.

Blynd

2013-10-25, 11:15 AM

Disclaimer :- this could upset people but take a breath and look at the post logically

OK then.

I think if they implimented it in 1 bio lab per cont it would be fine. As we would have something different to play on every so often so I don't see it as wholey a bad idea.

That's it out the way now to look at it if it were to replace all biolabs then its very poor design and just to point out that no one in the history of the world would make a militery/civilian instilations that are so hard to defend.

That was always the fun of ps1 it took tactics generally a lot of people and a bit of a never say die attitude. Defence could be accomplished by those who were outnumbered if they were organised but in ps2 nothing is defensable but the current biolab and these changes just make it on a par with the cap in 3 minutes crap bases not a facility.

Natir

2013-10-25, 12:38 PM

I think if they implimented it in 1 bio lab per cont it would be fine. As we would have something different to play on every so often so I don't see it as wholey a bad idea.

Yeah... no. That is not really a good idea, just going to be blunt. It gimps one empire per warpgate location and not the other two. Facilities are the main bases that are supposed (or should) keep an enemy at bay from taking all your territory and having bases designed to be centered around either the attacker or the defender is not just a good idea.

The rest of the changes in the biolab seem pretty good. The bad things are just the spawn rooms, the new spawn room and the travel time it takes to get into a fight.

I will say again, whoever made that change with the spawn room really doesn't play the game and it is very clear. That person should also not be working on Planetside 2 seeing as how that idea is about the worst I have seen since I started playing day one of tech test. Not only do they not even play the game they are supposed to be designing, they seem to have terrible ideas. Also, if it was the lead level designer who made that change, that is even worse. I just cannot fathom how something like this would even make it into anything more than an idea that never gets put onto paper.

"I got it guys, lets have to spawn into a biolab and close all the doors and make it so you cannot get out. We will put only one way in and out though. You will have to go up the first set of stairs and then the second. Then you will have to turn and go to the back of the room to a teleporter that will take you to the vehicle bay. Then you get to make your way to the other side to teleport back to the spawn room. We love loading screens. Only then will we take you into a small spawn room where we will make it impossible for you to advance out if you are overwhelmed by the enemy. Oh yeah, if the shield generator is down, that means the base should be taken very quickly after that. We really do not like infantry only fights and we strive ourselves on making sure these types of things never happen and if they do, we want them to end quickly."

Seriously though, who comes up with that kind of an idea and thinks it is even good enough to go on a test server. That is something that should never even make it to that level. It isn't even one of those "wouldn't it be cool" ideas. It is just something that doesn't make any sense.

PredatorFour

2013-10-25, 01:12 PM

Yeah... no. That is not really a good idea, just going to be blunt. It gimps one empire per warpgate location and not the other two.

You gotta remember this will all change when 'true planetside' comes in (global warfare). We wont be stuck with 3 empires on one cont all the time like we are now or that's how the theory goes;) I think it would be nice to have varying designs of the same base (within reason) for example, so no amp station is the same as the other.

I do agree with everything you said though and i too believe the devs don't play this game and have never played the original game.

Wargrim

2013-10-25, 01:22 PM

Picture time!

Disclaimer: I know these are not neccessarily good camp spots, in fact they are not. I just want to illustrate that players WILL find and use the good spots.

http://s11.postimg.org/40cj6eatt/welcome1.jpg

http://s11.postimg.org/h0oa2txe9/welcome2.jpg

http://s11.postimg.org/a00aa1vm9/welcome3.jpg

http://s11.postimg.org/ebovz22j5/welcome4.jpg

http://s11.postimg.org/fs0eh75g1/welcome5.jpg

http://s11.postimg.org/68qpnqhxt/welcome6.jpg

http://s11.postimg.org/csthu2vyp/welcome7.jpg

Bobby Shaftoe

2013-10-26, 05:24 AM

You gotta remember this will all change when 'true planetside' comes in

I'll be pleasantly surprised if there isn't another set of server mergers before the end of the year leaving 2 servers each for US/EU.

Peak pops barely warrant 2.5 servers, they've got 8. (before any additional population cap for new conts, of course they might try the ol' reduce pop lock numbers like they did in PS1 to promote secondary fights)

There's not going to be many people left (who want what 'true planetside' is) to actually play if/when it appears, will they even bother implementing it if the current state of the game does well on PS4 release? It'll just be the remaining PC gamers wanting more complexity anyway. Why waste all that time/development/money when they consistently do it wrong and we all just whine about it?

I think they might just put the pc version in maintenance mode and focus on developing the console side and just pump out the camo/bling/op-weapons for both platforms.

Spoof

2013-10-26, 06:32 AM

Spawn walk: Looks boring now but might turn out to be not that big of a deal.

That spawn walk and the need for arrows are icons of flawed design. Don't dismiss it.

Take a good, long look at what it is, what it does and how it fits into the game. Experience it, analyse it, critique it. Because if it comes to live you'll get the opportunity to walk it over and over and over and over and over and over...

It gives you no options.
It forces you down a linear route.
It forces you to the vehicle bay, even if you don't need a vehicle.
It forces you into a blind choke point if the vehicle bay is compromised.
It patronises you with "follow this, stupid" arrows.
It makes no functional sense in a purpose-built base with a role to play in the world of Auraxis.

In other words, whoever designed it had absolutely no connection with this game at all. They certainly do not play it.

Every team member is supposedly dedicated to optimisation, and yet somebody found the time to ruin the bio lab. Think about that too. It's like there's a clause in everyone's contract at SOE that somebody must leave their watch inside the patient after every operation.

"Nurse! The chainsaw..." :(

capiqu

2013-10-26, 10:35 AM

If fairer fights at Bio labs is what we are looking for maybe they should have two spawn rooms one on each side right off the landing pads. The attacking empire would be able to hack 1 spawn room. This would allow both empires to engage from an equal distance however the BIo Lab benefit would give an advantage to the defending team.
As far as spawn room camping. It is too easy to spawn camp a small rectangular room. As well as the current force field exits we currently have, give each spawn room 3 teleporters to allow players to exit at various points throughout the Bio Lab . You have many buildings in the Bio Labs that could be used for this. Giving the defenders the ability to teleport to the vehicle bay area, the SCU room and the generator room will force the attackers to cover those areas instead of camping the Spawn room.

NewSith

2013-10-26, 10:46 AM

As well as the current force field exits we currently have, give each spawn room 3 teleporters to allow players to exit at various points throughout the Bio Lab.

Not good either. Teleporters are a REALLY bad idea for innate level designs. Router-like vehicles? Maybe. But teleporters themselves are just too flawed because they are a camping central. If there's no defense around them, than then exits are getting camped, if there is defensive designs around the exists, than it's vice versa: people camp from inside these designs, much akin to what we have now.

Taramafor

2013-10-26, 11:13 AM

That spawn walk and the need for arrows are icons of flawed design. Don't dismiss it.

Take a good, long look at what it is, what it does and how it fits into the game. Experience it, analyse it, critique it. Because if it comes to live you'll get the opportunity to walk it over and over and over and over and over and over...

It gives you no options.
It forces you down a linear route.
It forces you to the vehicle bay, even if you don't need a vehicle.
It forces you into a blind choke point if the vehicle bay is compromised.
It patronises you with "follow this, stupid" arrows.
It makes no functional sense in a purpose-built base with a role to play in the world of Auraxis.

In other words, whoever designed it had absolutely no connection with this game at all. They certainly do not play it.

Every team member is supposedly dedicated to optimisation, and yet somebody found the time to ruin the bio lab. Think about that too. It's like there's a clause in everyone's contract at SOE that somebody must leave their watch inside the patient after every operation.

"Nurse! The chainsaw..." :(

If ever there were comments that hints at the game being dumbed down for the unenlightened... Hate it when arrows are in games like this. Breaks all immersion.

Emperor Newt

2013-10-26, 11:24 AM

Well, guiding systems are very common in big military installations. But usually those are not arrows but color-coded lines. Maybe with a few arrows inbetween. But I haven't seen the new biolab so I don't want to comment on those.

stargazer093

2013-10-26, 12:08 PM

Oh my f****** god... I..just..dunno what to say anymore.. it`s not only about this stupid base design changing..

I mean, it`s been one year since they launched the game right? ONE ENTIRE YEAR!

and they are still tweaking and changing even the most fundamental design of the game...

I really don`t know anymore, years ago I was fucking exited with that first Vanguard screenshot; years ago I was anticipating this game like there would be no other game I`ll ever play after it`s released; years ago even knowing there are some design I do not agree with, and many more were working in progress, I still held my hope and believing that given time this game will eventually become better and great; year ago when it was released, it wasn`t anywhere near release state, I still held my hope up high cause they said they will listen to feedbacks and everything will be alright soon..

then, a year passed, is the game anywhere near the actual "release state" now? Bit closer than before, perhaps, but look at what were they doing in this whole year apart from releasing more helmet and camo? fundamental designs were changed again and again and again and again, and many time the results were even worse than before thus just created more problems that it is supposed to fix. It just seems to me that the devs do not have any idea of what they are supposed to do. Are the bases suppose to be defendable or not? are the fights supposed to be casual, cod-oriented TDM firefight which attacker/defender are even, or big, long-lasting campaign which factions need to consider logistic, strategic command, supply lines and etc in order to win? Do vehicles actually need players to cooperate or not? If yes, why do MBTs suck so much compare to harassers ? When they "fix" something, do they actually know what they are doing and how silly the outcome actually looks like? Just look at how many different types of shield we have now: the one only defender`s bullet can penetrate but explosives cannot and only defender can walk through; the one that everyone`s bullet can penetrate but explosives can`t and only infantries can walk through, the one that none`s bullet or explosives can penetrate through and only defender`s infantry and vehicles can walk pass and etc. Oh and those absolutely awkward base/outpost designs which are somewhere in between a defendable base and a cod-style TDM map, alone with bunch of outplaced Quack-style jumppad and hoverpad and teleporters all over the area...

well, I don`t know about the others, but at least for me, it seems that the only thing that`s left about PS2 is merely "how good it could have been".. sad sad comparing to merely a year ago

Natir

2013-10-26, 03:46 PM

Blynd

2013-10-26, 04:27 PM

Well just had this reply on twitter from tray

"@PS_TRay: @Blynd_inc @Arclegger says you? I'm sure the changes were based on feedback and data not 'feeling' or 'emotions'"

Rivenshield

2013-10-26, 04:50 PM

I think they might just put the pc version in maintenance mode and focus on developing the console side and just pump out the camo/bling/op-weapons for both platforms.

And when the consolekiddies abandon PS2 for the next big shiny thing in six months... what then?

Also, has anybody heard from Malorn recently? Did he survive the chopping block? He was the most experienced and erudite of the pro-defense Traditionalist faction.

Maidere

2013-10-26, 05:08 PM

Well just had this reply on twitter from tray

"@PS_TRay: @Blynd_inc @Arclegger says you? I'm sure the changes were based on feedback and data not 'feeling' or 'emotions'"

Let's see how it works when the changes hit live server, but I suspect that if things will go the wrong way they will just say "we've been listening to the most populated PS2 social hub aka Reddit".

Jax Blake

2013-10-26, 05:28 PM

I just logged onto to the test server to check out this horrible design and see what the new ui brought in but for those fighting there is the base capture timer still about 2:15 if you own all the points? If the timer has not been reverted back then this is even worse than I thought because you're spending what 25-30 seconds after death trying to get back into the fight that will last two minutes IF you're there to immediately respond to it?

To those of you who are saying that now the sub bases will be used I just have to ask what effin game are you guys playing? Do you think that the teleport room won't be just as camped? What happens if you have no Sunderer right next to the transporter at the sub base? What does the time look like from death to respawn at sub base, adding in the run time to the teleport room or the jump pad which will also be camped? Do you guys not have outfits like Future Crew who go out of their way to farm stupid ass Sunderers in positions like the one your presenting here? Zerg has the inside of the base on lockdown so they know you have to come from your sub base, do you not have a VS21314 out there with his infil smg assaulting your guys, or nixi and krunkk in their marauder harasser farming the hell out of idiots running around, haven't seen them in a while but Sir Phobos and Punki would surely be over that farm with their Zephyr lib just laughing it up?

This change is one of the worst ever and I find the complete lack of response from SOE an even bigger insult to the player base that has supported this game for almost a year but I see Higby down their in brazil getting his drink on so I guess it's good someone is having some fun. I mean he is the creative director right, this change appears to have the absolute wrong creativity going with it. Every single time someone asked Luperza something that wasn't optimization we got told that everything is on hold for optimization and the very first thing they show us post optimization is this garbage? How about we put the level and base design team to work on Hossin or fix the joke of a competitive map called Nexus and not present us with this disaster. I hope Smed is reading all this, and if you're reading this Smed then it's time for you to get your house in order again.

ChipMHazard

2013-10-26, 06:58 PM

May I suggest that people calm down a bit. If we don't stay constructive with our criticism then chances are that SOE probably won't listen/read our feedback or at least not take it all that seriously. No reason to go all internet on this:p

Not counting the vehicle bay teleporter. (If they want there to be a teleporter going from the spawn to the vehicle bay, good. But make sure that there's also a teleporter going from spawn to spawn exit. The current design begs for camping to be done.)

I do like a lot of the changes that they've done to the Bio Lab itself.
I think they've done a really good job at improving the ground level design overall with well placed cover and preventing a lot of the ground level camping of the spawn exit.
I like what they've done to the teleporter room leading into the SCU shield gen building and I also like the shield between the two bridges.
Not sure about the more open area leading to the SCU gen from the spawn exit, seems too easy to camp from a vertical position.
They haven't done a whole lot to prevent vertical camping of the spawn exit or the two other teleporter rooms. The branching tree and central pillar are going to be prime areas from where to camp the spawn exit.

Overall atm. the design favors the attackers the most, again not counting the vehicle bay teleporter, and they need to make some more improvements against vertical camping of the defenders.
Might be an idea to increase the cap time.

Edit: When it comes to the arrows. Well I don't mind having arrows or lines showing you where to go, since that's pretty normal in big complexes. These I don't really like because they remind me more of placeholders. I would prefer an actual colored and labeld line going to where it's supposed to. These ones remind me too much of treasure hunting as a kid:p

Skittles

2013-10-26, 07:50 PM

Just to clear up what a few of you have said. The devs not only did NOT play Planetside1, they had full-blown, outright, contempt and hatred for Planetside1 and MORE then made that evident before beta, during beta, and after release.

I've also noticed in not just this thread, but the "never going to resub" thread it mentioned a few times some might come back when the game begins to resemble PS1. That is a real pipedream.

I think many of you need to re-read Blynd's reddit post that TRay said and what Im sure is not just TRay's attitude towards PS2, but the dev-SOE's attitude since the very, very beginning of this games development. Its about as subtle as a slap to the face from the outside looking in on your guy's game. He says "We're going to do what we're going to do." Its been the dev stance since the beginning. Its been that way since PS1, really. Its a SOE motto, its mission statement.

Babyfark McGeez

2013-10-26, 08:01 PM

Now i'm not saying anything more about the actual design (because frankly, it has all been said here), but i have to comment on the arrows because i saw some hate thrown at them too;

I think they are a step in the right direction and i like them. They might look kinda cheesy in their current form, but they are exactly what's needed in the bases (and one thing i wish we had in PS1). We all complained about the lack of information and visual aid, those arrows are a start.

So don't hate on the arrows. :p

Carbon Copied

2013-10-26, 08:23 PM

Level design based on excel spreadsheet data now? Interesting notion - then again excel spreadsheet data is solving the outfit recognition and population imbalance as well so why not? Ok maybe that was a cheap shot... but the point of validity stands.

On topic: something about PTS has always bugged me and that's that we're not really "testing" per se (stick with me here there is a point) - more of a "preview for the next GU" server would be a better title. Now take the bio lab as an example I'd want to see 3 if not more, significant designs of bio lab to actually test and find the better version that benefits the game and play styles - why dick around with guessing and not just get it right first time? Ok so it takes longer to put together as a project to critique and you can't satisfy every person's suggestions but there are clear re-occuring topics that come up in one way or another and I think most are reasonable to wait for some good rather than hope that designers are going to smell what they're shoveling and chance upon changing it for the better. Think of it like taste testing products in the super market: the assistant doesn't usually ask you for your opinion on cheeses, have only one cheese available and then stick it down your throat regardless.

Design of this game isn't a democracy and it's SOE's train set; but unless they want to see those dollar signs ticking over and people buying into their train set on a regular subscription basis then they may want to try a more open and choicest approach to designs they're proposing to get the best out of their own end product.

Badjuju

2013-10-27, 01:26 AM

Jesus these forums are becoming as bad as the official forums. Chip is right, anything besides constructive criticism is a waste of time. These tired rants solve nothing, especially when many complaining haven't even logged on the test server to check out the changes themselves, let alone test them out.

Overall the changes to the interior of the bio lab look amazing to me. It has been cleaned up allot and looks like it should offer better fights.

What is in question for me is how the shields work. I tried to test it out but had some bad luck and gave up. What I am hoping is that the vehicle shields remain up until the scu goes down (not the scu gen). Itis what would make sense to me. If this is not the case then I think it would be a needed change with how vulnerable the scu gen is.

I am not so concerned with the distance. I think the devs are trying to bring the fight inside the bio lab instead of it being the camp fest it is now. Being able to spawn right on top of objectives is just silly. Defenders farm the crap out the attackers until they bring enough numbers to kill the fight before the the base can even be capped. It would be awesome to see some prolonged fights take place within the base which is what I think they are trying to accomplish between the new spawn lay out and interior redesign.

A defensible base shouldn't rely on regurgitating players right on top objectives. It should rely on a lay out which supports good team play.

Oh, also I was in the marines. You would be surprised at how many arrows exist in just about any military instillation. Although, it wouldn't hurt to make them less dramatic and more professional looking.

LeilaniRock

2013-10-27, 05:36 AM

^^and i still have loads of fun in the new biolabs (about 6hrs spend on test)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

ringring

2013-10-27, 06:05 AM

Being constructive ... I like the idea of the arrows. One of the things I criticised the tunnels under the Amp Stations was that it wasn't obvious where they lead to and in fact they'd been in live for a while before a lot of people noticed they existed.

So, no hate on the arrows from me.

The new barriers? I haven't looked but I don't see anything negative on the videos I've seen.

What really gets me is that they seems to be a wish to have bases that are not defendable in fact ever since tech test the community has had to push and push. Bases and outposts were about as 'drive-thru' as a McDonalds. Anyone remember the initial Amp Station without the walls?

As Carboncopied said, it's their train set and not mine or any of ours.

Blynd

2013-10-27, 06:33 AM

OK if they want to use these transporters but why are they so far away ??

ChipMHazard

2013-10-27, 06:58 AM

Only reason I can think of is that they want defenders to spend more time getting back into the fight, in order to give attackers more time after each kill.
If that's the case then I don't necessarily agree with the reasoning and in either case I most certainly do not agree with the execution. Like Murda suggested, if SOE wants a longer delay between defenders spawning in then they could up the spawn time in the Bio Lab, if it's feasible to have seperate spawn timers for different bases/facilities, or otherwise tweak it in some other manner.
How they are going about it with this change is just going to frustrate the defenders. Going up flights of stairs to the back of the upper floor just to take a teleporter that leads to the vehicle bay, which in turn leads to another teleporter, that then finally leads to the spawn exit building.
Only positive thing is that you no longer have to run out into gunfire in order to access the vehicle bay, but they could done it in a far less frustrating way.

Carbon Copied

2013-10-27, 07:35 AM

-snip-

So you don't see these changes as swinging the pendulum of defenders farm over to the extreme of attackers farm? I agree that defense of a base shouldn't rely on you spawning on the objective but team play and layout; but that's precisely the problem there's no layers to "falling back" or flow progression in either the current form or this so just highlights the sloppy "it'll do" arena design. They could save themselves a lot of time by just stacking some crates and calling it the bio lab.

The arrows aren't dramatic they just look like they shouldn't be there - you have to tell people where to go to get out of the start area; how dumb is that? This stuff should be intuitively apparent the moment you appear. Things like objectives and points that control the flow and progression of a facility should be marked with the "help" icons. Regardless of what they use now in the modern military thankfully we're not limited to the confines of reality and creative flair in a computer game.

Credit to Mrkwatz on reddit:

Spoof

2013-10-27, 07:44 AM

So don't hate on the arrows. :p

In the movie Escape From New York, Kurt Russell has the option to "follow the yellow line for immediate termination." Kurt gets multiple choices :) and clearly the floor markings fulfill a purpose.

If this bio-lab were a movie, the narrative would be "follow the yellow arrows because... because... look, don't question, just follow the arrows and eventually you'll get to where we should have spawned you in the first place..."

I don't hate on the arrows, infact I agree with everyone regarding their use in a proper base layout, with multiple goals. But these arrows are nothing more than a crutch that expose the flaws in this 'spawn walk' fiasco.

Shamrock

2013-10-27, 10:03 AM

I think there is a lot of knee jerk reaction over these changes, which are still provisional at this stage. The only things i see that need changing is the removal of the run through the vehicle bay due to the diffuser camping scenario, and the overly long run back, increasing the spawn timer would have achieved the same effect without all the elongation of the route.

Natir

2013-10-27, 02:39 PM

May I suggest that people calm down a bit. If we don't stay constructive with our criticism then chances are that SOE probably won't listen/read our feedback or at least not take it all that seriously. No reason to go all internet on this:p

If a developer cannot take the heat for a bad idea of theirs, then they shouldn't be in game design. In game design, you will eventually get heat for what you do and you need to be able to take it when it comes at you; especially if it is a terrible idea. Every once in a while there will be a bad design choice and its not like game designers shit gold every time they have a new idea. Some are bad, some are good, and others just boggle the mind.

The idea for the new spawn mechanics is just plain out dumb. Anyone who plays the game will say that it is a dumb idea. Even the people on this forum seem to collectively dislike the idea. So what if some are more vocal about it. If a developer wants as much interactions with their player base as SOE does, they should expect there will be negative feedback.

Here is the thing, seeing all the negative feedback about the biolab, why don't they offer up some sort of an explanation somewhere about why they chose that design idea and what they liked about it. To just silently change a core mechanic of the ability to spawn and get back into a fight is huge. Especially one that in general, is a bad idea and left players wondering if it will even be implemented or not. It takes all of a few minutes for a designer to post something on why they wanted that new mechanic. I believe that is the main problem right now, no one really knows why they implemented it and whether it will stay. Until SOE decides to make a post on it, it will have people worried, especially people who love a good biolab farm. This new change will literally destroy any chances of a biolab farm.

ChipMHazard

2013-10-27, 03:00 PM

It's not about whether or not the feedback is negative, but how constructive it is.

Natir

2013-10-27, 03:22 PM

It's not about whether or not the feedback is negative, but how constructive it is.

Feedback doesn't have to be constructive. One can offer suggestions but at the same time, no one is required to pander to SOE. If they will only listen to you if you are constructive, well, then, their game will die even quicker. I say let it happen. If they refuse to even read negative feedback, then I just laugh. That is what this whole biolab spawn change is, completely negative. No one asked for it, no one wanted it, it is just a joke. Show me where people wanted that spawn change.

ChipMHazard

2013-10-27, 03:48 PM

Feedback doesn't have to be constructive. One can offer suggestions but at the same time, no one is required to pander to SOE. If they will only listen to you if you are constructive, well, then, their game will die even quicker. I say let it happen. If they refuse to even read negative feedback, then I just laugh. That is what this whole biolab spawn change is, completely negative. No one asked for it, no one wanted it, it is just a joke. Show me where people wanted that spawn change.

It's a damn good idea if you want the devs to actually pay attention and not just disregard you as irrelevant. It's still not about pandering to anyone. One can offer critiscm without resorting to insults, extreme demands, overly exaggerated arguments etc. (As examples) They will and have listened to very emotional feedback in the past, like the implants. It's not a good idea in general to get emotional when giving feedback though, imo. But there are of course times when it just can't be helped:P (Just so there's no confusion regarding this, it's perfectly fine to state that a certain concept/change etc. is totally daft)
And again this is not about SOE not wanting to listen or read negative feedback and it doesn't matter how many times you write that, that is somehow the case. It still won't be true.
It's not so much what you say/write but how you do it.

I don't agree that all the changes are negative, and I have seen/heard people complain about how easy it was to camp attackers, lack of ground cover and how easy it was to camp defenders inside the spawn room (The last thing is something they haven't done anything noticeable about)

Crator

2013-10-27, 05:14 PM

Well I played for a little while just now. I do like the new barriers around the shield rooms inside the base! Less camping at them now!

There were times when we were getting camped down below at the spawn room teleporter. The main thing I don't like about that is you can't tell if it is being camped unless you go through. If camped you will die instantly. But, if you know it is you can spawn at the connecting friendly base and teleport into the base or get a vehicle and attack the enemy that is killing you at the bottom of the base. I think the devs are trying to get people to use vehicles more at a biolab. That's what it feels like... I did get the feeling that the layout helps to give a progressive attack and less of a camping session...

Illtempered

2013-10-27, 05:45 PM

On the test today the first thing TR did when VS took Allatum was a mass GSD attack with Sunderers and Harassers. VS had about double their pop so it didn't work for very long, but with even pops it'll be ugly...

Jax Blake

2013-10-27, 07:02 PM

Natir is actually addressing one of the biggest problems I have which is the complete lack of response by SOE developers about this change. We can get hourly updates on Higby's drinking contest but days after this pretty big change and nothing but a random tweet from TRay who is on the art team? Is this really how a company treats the consumers who have stuck by this company through a year of almost no new serious content? How hard is it for the people who made this decision to come on here or reddit or twitter or anything not their official forums since they hate it so much and address their users who obviously have serious issues with some of their game design decisions?

If the new time to get back into the base is 30 seconds and the base capture time is 2:15 or so if all points are held then what happens if on your first push you wipe and have to make this new run all the way back? That 30 seconds only applies if you face no resistance on the way back but we all know that won't be the case anymore. There WILL be hostiles in the bottom of the biolab and if that shield generator is down you will have more than GSD vehicles standing in your way. I still don't understand those of you who are saying the sub base will now play a part because almost every time I see a force of any size attacking a bio lab they also have air above pounding the pads and just flying around in the general area. You think some NUC or TGWW lib teams won't be waiting for you as you spawn from that sub base and try to make it to a teleporter? Do people think the attackers won't have infil darts up and know as soon as you make a move from the teleporter if not already have one of your last remaining spawns camped? If you're trying to tell me that the bottom won't be camped and that the sub base won't be camped then we're not talking about planetside as it's meant to be played with coordinated assaults but the mindless zerg wandering from base to base getting all that good capture xp.

Some of the other changes on the inside are nice but what does it matter when the fight is decided underneath the biolab in the vehicle spawn or during the thirty second respawn. There is nothing wrong with one of the base types in this game favoring the defenders or even heavily favoring the defenders. I'm sick and tired of having to deal with all the other bases where you have to run a hundred meters to a capture point or a shorter run across a completely open space, or on esamir with two full squads of light assaults on the stupidly high walls shooting down at me. Leave the biolabs alone and focus on getting us new content, put all of these base and level design guys to work on Hossin, battle islands, or the amerish revamp but this thing here this biolab, unlike others here I refuse to sugar coat, this new biolab is just bad, bad, bad, all very bad.

typhaon

2013-10-27, 10:50 PM

I'm with you. So, so tired of just redesigned bases. It's not making the game more fun, for me.

Natir

2013-10-27, 11:20 PM

It's a damn good idea if you want the devs to actually pay attention and not just disregard you as irrelevant. It's still not about pandering to anyone. One can offer critiscm without resorting to insults, extreme demands, overly exaggerated arguments etc. (As examples) They will and have listened to very emotional feedback in the past, like the implants. It's not a good idea in general to get emotional when giving feedback though, imo. But there are of course times when it just can't be helped:P (Just so there's no confusion regarding this, it's perfectly fine to state that a certain concept/change etc. is totally daft)
And again this is not about SOE not wanting to listen or read negative feedback and it doesn't matter how many times you write that, that is somehow the case. It still won't be true.
It's not so much what you say/write but how you do it.

I don't agree that all the changes are negative, and I have seen/heard people complain about how easy it was to camp attackers, lack of ground cover and how easy it was to camp defenders inside the spawn room (The last thing is something they haven't done anything noticeable about)

To start out, I said the only bad thing about the biolab change is the new spawn shit. That is plain and simply a bad idea. The rest are fine and have been needed for a while. But the fact that it is over a year out and we are still tweaking bases amazes me. I remember in an interview where Clegg said he designed the biolabs based on what looked good. Yeah... When I heard that interview and those words come out of Clegg's mouth, I was almost shocked that your sole purpose for wanting to design a base is all about what looks good rather than was works best for defenders/attackers. Clearly that concept worked and why bases are still continuously getting tweaked nonstop.

SOE is about one of the only companies who post on reddit, PSU, and twitter almost begging feedback from their playerbase. Literally, I see posts every week about "what do you guys think of this?" and "Do you guys think this is good?" They have to realize, by now, that not all feedback will be constructive or positive or "phrased" how they want it. Especially when you open yourself up to that many people wanting feedback. People also have a certain level of expectation from designers and when they implement something that just doesn't make sense, I think it is fine for the community, be it large or small, to voice that negativity. There comes a point where your designers should know what they should be implementing and shouldn't need to always go to the community for feedback.

For the longest time you couldn't find ANY information outside of RPG style patch notes on their forums. They have slowly been getting better but the amount they post on Twitter, PSU, Reddit, etc, greatly outweigh that of their forums. Their own forums. If this all comes down to "negativity," then they really should be in the fluffy bear making business because game design might be too hardcore for them.

capiqu

2013-10-27, 11:54 PM

I feel there is too much base redesign. Leave the new designs for the new continents Now one of the reasons we fought so much for the test server was to try out new ideas off the live server. So don't panic. Use the the test server and anything you like or do not like give SOE feedback on.

ChipMHazard

2013-10-28, 07:14 AM

To start out, I said the only bad thing about the biolab change is the new spawn shit. That is plain and simply a bad idea. The rest are fine and have been needed for a while.

I agree.

SOE is about one of the only companies who post on reddit, PSU, and twitter almost begging feedback from their playerbase. Literally, I see posts every week about "what do you guys think of this?" and "Do you guys think this is good?" They have to realize, by now, that not all feedback will be constructive or positive or "phrased" how they want it. Especially when you open yourself up to that many people wanting feedback. People also have a certain level of expectation from designers and when they implement something that just doesn't make sense, I think it is fine for the community, be it large or small, to voice that negativity.

They know there will be unconstuctive feedback. That does not give anyone a free pass to be unconstructive though.
It is completely fine and expected for a community to provide criticism and be negative towards concepts/changes that they deem damaging to the game. It's not fine if they do so in an unconstructive manner.

There comes a point where your designers should know what they should be implementing and shouldn't need to always go to the community for feedback.

Perhaps, but until that time comes I appreciate the devs actually wanting feedback on their changes and giving us the opportunity to test and provide said feedback.

For the longest time you couldn't find ANY information outside of RPG style patch notes on their forums. They have slowly been getting better but the amount they post on Twitter, PSU, Reddit, etc, greatly outweigh that of their forums. Their own forums. If this all comes down to "negativity," then they really should be in the fluffy bear making business because game design might be too hardcore for them.

It has little to do with negativity and more to do with how constructive people are on the official forum. As in there are far too many people there who are completely and utterly unconstructive when it comes to providing any kind of feedback and apparently it's better to troll than be rational. SOE are going to find the same negativity and critiscm on Reddit, just worded in a fashion that they can actually make use of.

Again you're completely missing the point.
It's not so much about what you write but how you write it. (And by you I mean any person)

Taramafor

2013-10-28, 09:36 AM

I'm just going to remind everyone that this is in a test server. Where major things are being tested. So with that in mind, let's point out what works, what can be improved, and what just plain needs to go. Haven't tested this myself but from the sound of things, the long walk needs to go or offer some sort of incentive for the long trek (like height advantage or nearby vehicle terminals and places you can't get camped at).

Anyway, case in point, point out what works, what doesn't and the inbetweens. But let's give the devs a chance to change things the way we want them to be changed (which we can do now with this).

On the subject of arrows, do they really help? I mean, there's a mini map. And icons on the screen. And no sign posts stating which arrows lead where. If it was a case of color coding (blue arrows lead to spawn room, red to terminals, etc which are on huds anyway) then I could see a use for them. But so far I can only see a minor use for tunnels in amp and tech bases, and even then it's not hard to know you're going to turn without an arrow there and just by looking at the mini map, you should see where you're going and going to be.

Natir

2013-10-28, 10:42 AM

They know there will be unconstuctive feedback. That does not give anyone a free pass to be unconstructive though. It is completely fine and expected for a community to provide criticism and be negative towards concepts/changes that they deem damaging to the game. It's not fine if they do so in an unconstructive manner.

You are dictating how people should interact on the internet. You cannot. You want to talk about what is unconstructive? Reddit. Like what I said below, Reddit has actually done more damage than good to this game. Devs never get to see any negative feedback so they get a feeling they can do no wrong.

It has little to do with negativity and more to do with how constructive people are on the official forum. As in there are far too many people there who are completely and utterly unconstructive when it comes to providing any kind of feedback and apparently it's better to troll than be rational. SOE are going to find the same negativity and critiscm on Reddit, just worded in a fashion that they can actually make use of.

You most likely will not find that on Reddit. Since the subreddit for Planetside started, all you see are good ideas getting downvoted into oblivion, a place where you cannot even post quality content. Even if you have good constructive feedback, it doesn't matter because a bunch of people will just downvote what you wrote into oblivion. Reddit is by far the worst of the worst. You talk about anything negative towards VS, like how the ZOE is OP and you will get downvoted. Reddit is by far one of the worst communities and the moderators also help that nature. If that subreddit was moderated by SOE employees it might be completely different but you have people who blatantly biased running that site. You post constructive (negative) feedback about an idea, immediately downvoted. Anything that the SOE fanboys don't like gets downvoted. If people don't like specific people, they will get downvoted just because of who they are, regardless of what they talk about and how they talk about it.

Reddit is about on par with 4chan. By reddit, I mean the Planetside subreddit. When the ZOE came out and people were bitching left and right about how OP it was, people went to reddit and just got downvoted into oblivion. All you saw was how OP the TR/NC were compared the VS MAX abilities. The community and moderators are completely biased and that is where the devs get most of their information from.

Again you're completely missing the point.
It's not so much about what you write but how you write it. (And by you I mean any person)

I am fully aware of that. I am saying I could care less how I write something and people shouldn't be worried about that. When it comes to something like the biolab spawn mechanic, I think there should be very harsh feedback, just like about the implants. These are not good ideas and in fact, are game breaking and the designers should know this. It is their fault and like I said, if they cannot take the heat, they should be working somewhere else.

KesTro

2013-10-28, 10:59 AM

Well first off, why would anyone go to reddit? Secondly when did we start liking Biolab fights. As far as it goes on Connery at least from an NC perspective (ironic, no?) most people despise biolab fights even if they're the defenders for the simple fact that they won't go anywhere until one side outnumbers the other to a ridiculous degree at which point there isn't a fight for a base. It's just defenders getting camped in spawn.

Even if this change did go through would it honestly be so bad that we'd not get caught up at these bases for three hours on our predetermined lattice link to victory? it's not as if we can just go around the bloody thing. Not everyone is an an outfit that can field a full platoon at a moment's notice, we can't all zerg our way to victory.

ChipMHazard

2013-10-28, 11:22 AM

You are dictating how people should interact on the internet. You cannot.

No, I'm reminding you how things work here. Like back when people thought it was perfectly fine to attack SOE employees personally. There is a line that one should not cross. The line exists, not to protect developers, but to make sure that PSU stays relevant.

You want to talk about what is unconstructive? Reddit. Like what I said below, Reddit has actually done more damage than good to this game. Devs never get to see any negative feedback so they get a feeling they can do no wrong.

I don't use Reddit so I'll have to take other people's word on how it works there. Not the first time I've heard about discussions just getting downvoted. However I will take the statement of Reddit never giving critical/negative feedback with a grain of salt. It's possible but I doubt it's entirely true.

I am fully aware of that. I am saying I could care less how I write something and people shouldn't be worried about that. When it comes to something like the biolab spawn mechanic, I think there should be very harsh feedback, just like about the implants. These are not good ideas and in fact, are game breaking and the designers should know this. It is their fault and like I said, if they cannot take the heat, they should be working somewhere else.

Well if you make us mods care then the devs won't even get to see your feedback. The internet isn't just some free haven for someone to be an ass, at the very least one has to accept the same consequences as one would outside of the internet.
It's entirely possible to deliver harsh critiscm without resorting to unconstructive nonsense like insults, attacks, demanding someone getting fired, devs dropping their PR tour in order to appease the community etc.
You don't get to dictate how much abuse the developers should just accept when reading feedback.

Edit: Have we now reached an understanding when it comes to whether or not there is actually a limit, even if it's very lenient, to just how unconstructive people are allowed to be? Not all impolite critiscm is unconstructive.
Hopefully we have so the thread doesn't have to be derailed any further.

Well first off, why would anyone go to reddit? Secondly when did we start liking Biolab fights. As far as it goes on Connery at least from an NC perspective (ironic, no?) most people despise biolab fights even if they're the defenders for the simple fact that they won't go anywhere until one side outnumbers the other to a ridiculous degree at which point there isn't a fight for a base. It's just defenders getting camped in spawn.

Even if this change did go through would it honestly be so bad that we'd not get caught up at these bases for three hours on our predetermined lattice link to victory? it's not as if we can just go around the bloody thing. Not everyone is an an outfit that can field a full platoon at a moment's notice, we can't all zerg our way to victory.

I agree about what Bio Lab fights can end up becoming, which I'm guessing is also the main reason for the changes.

Aside from the vehicle bay teleporter, the changes may be nessecary to stop things from getting stalemated until one side gets bored. That is to say that the changes may be nessecary because of the lack of a proper resource system. When they implement that it should help guarantee that even the most defensible facility will eventually fall when its been completely drained.
The current changes seem more like a band-aid, imho. Although some of the changes to the layout I do very much like because they make more sense.

That said it still seems like they might have given the attackers too much of an advantage, level design wise. Again not counting the vehicle bay.

NewSith

2013-10-28, 11:43 AM

ringring

2013-10-28, 12:37 PM

How abnout this: Biolabs were LEAST broken of all facilities. You wanna know the best facility designed so far? There isn't any.

Here's another mindblower: If every base would be defensible, the bar where defensible becomes farmable would've been much higher.

I'd agree.

Of the three main bases I think the Bio is the best. Certainly it's the base where I've had the most enjoyable fights most often.

Mordelicius

2013-10-29, 01:19 AM

We lost that with the lattice though. If every base was up to snuff with that one base than no one would ever get anywhere.

*edit* And I mean that in terms of defensibility.
Read. Out of things that PCGamer can write about PS2, they write about the the Crown.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/01/23/planetside-2-the-crown/

I quote from the article:

"Those bases still have their differences compared to The Crown, of course. So, we need to look at how we can recreate The Crown’s lightning-in-a-bottle kind of reputation" - Higby

Does it have to be a carbon copy of The Crown? Look, even they know how attractive the base is. Now, they have it opposite, they prefer to drab down popular bases so it becomes less popular :doh:. Instead, they are trying to recreate Xenotech Lab's revolving-door-on-the-wall reputation :groovy:.

The point is they are tearing down the bases players like best. The Biolab has been stable since they've added that large spawn. They've changed the SCU-Gen mechanic. They've lowered the capture timer to 3 minutes :confused:. Now, they've literally turned the base upside down:

- Attackers have all the covers.
- Attackers are closer to the Capture Points.
- Attackers have access to high buildings while Defenders have none.
- Worse of all, defenders are now spawn campable on two spots: Biolab proper and the vehicle console area.

It's as if the attackers are the defenders and vice versa. What exactly are these data they point to? Too many kills/deaths? Of course, players love the base.

Players will continue to leave due to continued removal of attractive features of PS2. Read: http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=56506.
Accurate right? This is another example of tampering with gameplay/mechanic/designs to regulate cert gain. They really should lowered the xp gain directly. I've been saying that since last year. I knew meatgrinder bases are frowned upon by SOE (isn't that their hook? Massive scale PvP)? If they implement XP gain timer cooldown upon death, they don't have to worry about massive meatgrinder farms (massive scale pvp and meatgrinder fights are inseparable; but they can still regulate xp gain without destroying gameplay/mechanics/base designs). That's what players want, shooting and blasting, not waiting, wiping, walking or camping spawns.

KesTro

2013-10-29, 01:34 AM

Yes and I understand at least I'd like to think so where both side would be coming at this from. That said I stand by my accusations to the lattice. Players have complained about the lack of defensibility for a long time now. Once the lattice was added almost immediately you started seeing people complaining about not getting anywhere on a continent. So what is a dev to do? As Chip said it seems like a band-aid for the time being.

And you're absolutely right players want to shoot blast and grind but I'm afraid implementing a timer before they're rewarded for doing it doesn't seem like a very good idea. Honestly I'm not too sure regulating cert gain is the reason for this change simply a bi-product of it.

I'm not saying the design is perfect as is and it definitely will need some tweaking before it can be allowed to go to live.

On a side note I'm not sure I can accept anything in that article as being valid anymore due to it being published when the hex system was still in effect. A lot of what they said can't apply to the current game as is due to the lattice. When the Hex system was in place and people could be anywhere at anytime. Yeah there was a major need for things to be more like the crown. Now though, we are literally on rails. If every base becomes defensible I'm afraid that we might all only be seeing the same three bases every day. (Down from the same five. :| )

*Edit* Fixed Chip's name from Chimp. >>;

Badjuju

2013-10-29, 01:47 AM

Wargrim

2013-10-29, 05:48 PM

In today's patch, they changed it so you spawn directly in the small spawn building, and there is one teleporter inside it leading down to the vehicle spawn.

No more long walk over stairs and through vehicle campable vehicle bay to get out of spawn. Also no more walking through an open killzone to reach the teleporter as it is on life servers at the moment.

With the big spawning fuckup out of the way, this is looking a lot more positive, with some adjustments to improve the area around the spawn hut ( give defenders access to higher levels like the old 3 story spawn did, use stairs or such ) and to break up the large open killzone between spawn and scu/shield gen ( simply add back the cover that used to be there, or add new cover in a way that allows defenders to move without getting shot from 360° ) this could become a real improvement compared to what we have on life.

Thumbs up for listening, whoever changed it.

GreyFrog

2013-10-29, 06:02 PM

I would have;
1. Removed the first spawn room.
2. Had everyone spawn down stairs and covered the walk way to the teleporter completely over with a couple of exits.

It gives the defenders a little bit longer walk. The attacker has the option of attempting to interrupt the flow of battle down stairs with out license to spam infantry from inside vehicles.

Biolab definitely needs some work though.

ChipMHazard

2013-10-29, 08:04 PM

Glad to see that they've changed it so fast. Hope they give the vertical spawm camping a look see so as to help the defenders some more.

Jax Blake

2013-10-29, 08:38 PM

A good change getting rid of that long run but the attackers advantage is still too great. I don't see any decent exits from that spawn room from a competent attacking force and there is next to no chance of saving that SCU once it goes critical. The wide open space where the old spawn room use to be is just a kill zone or get farmed zone depending on which side of the fight you're on.

HelpLuperza

2013-10-30, 12:51 PM

Tbh, I think it's a bit early to already put the bitter-vet hat up and stomp this design into the ground.

This is a really good point.

VampireCrono

2013-10-30, 05:31 PM

the only real issue i had with biolabs is that since it's pretty much the only base in the game that can actually be defended, it can stop an entire lattice lane for hours while the other lanes shift back and forth every 5 minutes. either make biolabs so they switch as easily as other bases or make all of the other bases as defensible as a biolab. it's mindblowingly stupid when you are stomping a faction on a continent and the only thing they have held the entire time is a biolab.

we saw this crap during beta with the crown and since it got redesigned, battles flow a lot more around that area. it's time for the biolab to get the same treatment

Obstruction

2013-10-30, 06:14 PM

we saw this crap during beta with the crown and since it got redesigned, battles flow a lot more around that area. it's time for the biolab to get the same treatment

i think the core of the debate here is that while what you're pointing out is true about battle flow, the practical player response is simply not to defend the indefensible because it's not fun to lose and get camped. and that leads to the attack steamroll and having to babysit the spawn for the handful of guys that will either run blindly out and die, or Rambo out for a couple of kills or just harass the point or back cap.

before the lattice and the redesigns that came with it, many, many players either wouldn't defend, or would leave platoons that were defending. an average platoon would pick up a lot of players on the attack, but then when leaders started calling for defensive spawns and each progressive spawn simply lead to worse and worse camping or suicidal galaxy drops, players would drop out and go to the crown and lone wolf.

eventually this lead to whole platoons passing each other on the map without conflict and simply trading map squares, each on the assault without opposition.

i'm not proposing an easy answer, but i just think it's important for the discussion to clarify the following:

1. people like hard fights like the biolab, the old crown.
2. easy battle flow for the attacker leads to steamroll and babysit.

i guess if i had to really get my hands dirty i would suggest radical redesign and scrap the Alpha Bravo Charlie king of the hill model.

i'd look for something else that allows bases to be defended in a fun and competitive way that doesn't just lead the practical, cert minded F2Per to ditch losing battles and cause a steamroll.

maybe even scrap the territory map tile flip game, and find another way to advance the front lines.

it just seems like the meta being shallow is a function of the elements being weak.

there's a ton of different ways to play war games, not just king of the hill and risk.

VampireCrono

2013-10-30, 06:27 PM

no doubt that the battlefield style of capturing just doesn't work for this game. while i would love an overhaul of the cap system, other things need to go in first (resource overhaul, continental lattice) before we can really get down the details. i understand that making the biolab flow more like other bases may give attackers the advantage but right now (with all of the imbalance) it's just an epic pain in the ass to take a biolab. surrounding a biolab does nothing now but when resource overhaul goes in, i'm sure we will see some better scenarios.

Senorblanco

2013-10-30, 06:45 PM

Everyone complained that the vehicles were too op and it was wrecking the infantry game, so they nerf'd the hell out of it, plus the domes coming into to protect the infantry so they can fight at a base. But now we have a base that actually requires some strat to not have it turn into a farm for either side, plus an actual infantry only fight and now you make it so the attackers will roll over the defenders.
The bio labs are for many of us, are a wonderful battle, just leave it alone.

VampireCrono

2013-10-30, 07:10 PM

i don't think getting farmed for hours on an air pad is fun. i also don't think stalemates are fun when the ONLY place they happen are at biolabs. also, if you haven't noticed, the only way to really win a biolab over is by pulling more MAXs than the other side. if you're VS (for now) the odds are WAY more in your favor than any other faction thanks to ZOE.

ringring

2013-10-31, 10:50 AM

I'm a little bemused by some of the dislike of Bio Domes.

It's a place for a hard fight. Also the nature of the fight depends on the numbers involved and on the balance between the forces involved.

It seems to me that there is an expectation that if you attack you should win, possibly the players have been conditioned into this view by all the other bases and outposts in PS2 which just get steam-rolled time after time. Well, no. It's only right that defenders should win sometimes.

From what I have see is that if the forces are split 50:50 the defenders win and if the forces are split 60:40 with the 60 being attackers the defenders win.

I would say these are the same win/lose ratios that existed in PS1 for Interlink battles (and to some extent also for Tech Plant fights).

The key difference between PS1 Interfarms and PS2 Bio fights are that there were two 'tie breaker' mechanisms.

Firstly, in PS1 there was the router which was used by attackers to deploy a teleporter pad inside the base at strategic points enabling a sudden quick win.

Secondly, resources could be drained which after a period would make the base go neutral.

It seems to be the devs would be far more usefully employed putting both or either of these two in and not worrying about moving spawns 6 inches to the left or right, up or down, or adding a glorified plant pot here or there.