Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser

[ChipMHazard]

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/balance-pass-post-1-vehicle-weapons-and-the-harasser.156160/

"I’m going to be writing a series of posts that go over the balance adjustments that we’re implementing based on collected data and player feedback. These changes will start rolling out in the updates following the optimization patch. This first post will cover the vehicle weapons and heavy vehicle vs. light vehicle combat.


Secondary Weapon Damage Adjustments

Anti-vehicle secondary weapons will remain the same against vehicles, but will see a slight drop in damage against infantry.
This corrects the cases where certain anti-vehicle weapons are outperforming anti-infantry weapons at the latter’s intended role.
Anti-personnel weapons will receive a damage increase at very close range against infantry and light armor (Harasser).
This gives coordinated tank drivers and gunners the tools to deal with approaching Harassers and infantry with C-4. The key word here is coordinated. We’re not giving tanks a free pass, just better tools and options.
More noticeable damage falloff is being added to vehicle secondary weapons, similar to infantry but with the range extended much further out.



More information on the damage falloff
Vehicle damage falloff will not be extreme. It will be just enough to better define the roles for the different weapon types. We won’t be changing any weapon roles, just getting them closer to where they should be.

For example, the G30 Vulcan will perform better at close-to-medium AV combat when compared to the E540 Halberd, but the Halberd will be able to reach out and perform better at longer ranges. Players can equip either to match where they’re fighting or how they like to fight.

The bigger change here is that the range of Harasser weapons is being reduced in comparison to the other ground vehicle secondary weapons. This means that the Harasser will have to put itself at more risk in order to output its full damage, which better fits its hit-and-run style. On the other side, the larger optimal range of the main battle tank and Sunderer secondary gunners will overlap with the Harasser's sweet spot, allowing those gunners to better protect their vehicles.


Proximity Radar Change

Proximity Radar is being moved to the defense slot
Proximity Radar is intended to be the defensive warning against approaching infantry with C-4, but it’s become obvious that the other options are vastly preferred in the Utility slot.
We feel that moving it to the Defense slot makes more sense for the cert line and that this move gives players clearer defensive options to choose from.



General Vehicle Weapons Balance Pass
In addition to everything listed above, we’re taking a pass at all vehicle weapons in order to even out the performance and the various tradeoffs between the different faction weapons.


Harasser Changes

Harassers currently have too much freedom in infantry areas because their high speed and acceleration allows them to recover and repair quickly. We’re going to increase C-4 and tank mine damage against this vehicle so that infantry can punish Harasser drivers who get too careless.
Harasser composite armor’s max resistance is being reduced. Not by much, just enough so that it will not out-tank a tank. The C-4 resistance buff on Harasser composite armor is also being removed.



Upcoming Posts

Nanoweave and related features, like sniper rifles
Rocket launchers, underbarrel grenade launchers, and engineer turrets
MAX anti-vehicle and ability adjustments
And more to come
"

[HereticusXZ]

Sunderer's with both AMS and Scout Radar or Anchor Mode Prowler with Scout Radar - Awesome!

[DredVS]

Personally, I do not like the Proximity Radar changes for the vehicles I use. I will have to choose it over Auto-Repair now on my Lightning.

Seems to be there's no good reason to use anything other than Smoke for the defense slot at the moment now that Radar is defense.

[Phrygen]

They are going to let me use anchor and prox at the same time...

God help them all.

[KesTro]

Here's to hoping the Vulcan's brought in line then. As it is now it can shred anything with little risk to the harasser using it.

[HereticusXZ]

Saron and Enforcer are just as devastating as the Vulcan if not -marginally- better (that's a big if), the difference is Vulcan is more popular because everyone knows and loves a rotating cannon that kills stuff so you naturally see 2-3 vulcans for every 1 of the other guns.

I don't think this new change will be to huge for secondary weapons, but I could be wrong, Anxious to see it in action!

[Plaqueis]

Harassers currently have too much freedom in infantry areas because their high speed and acceleration allows them to recover and repair quickly. We’re going to increase C-4 and tank mine damage against this vehicle so that infantry can punish Harasser drivers who get too careless[/LIST]

Harrasser is too fast so C4/Tankmine damage is buffed? Ya, makes perfect sense...

Who came up with this brilliant idea? How are the squishys supposed to get that damn C4 on a speeding Harrasser? Currently, it takes freaking forever to drop them on a static tank, let alone slow moving Max... and that should help infantry somehow.. lolz

[PredatorFour]

Not by much, just enough so that it will not out-tank a tank.


I'll be the judge of that! Challenge accepted;)

[camycamera]

yay, at least he didn't mention removing repping a harrasser while it was driving lol

[ChipMHazard]

yay, at least he didn't mention removing repping a harrasser while it was driving lol

I guess that depends on whether or not it's considered a bug. If so then I could see it being in the patch notes at some point:p

[Mordelicius]

Alot of these proposed Harasser changes make no sense. It proves the Devs are out of touch with the actual live gameplay.

- Harassers do not get damaged by Mines (they are too fast). By the time the mine explodes, they are already away from the damage radius. How many AV mines have I wasted on these things defending a Sundy/Pathways etc. Too much. They are not effective at all.

- C4 on Harassers. If PS2 has a Shingeki no Kyojin movement system, this would be useful, but only fools would allow their Harassers to get C4ed. They move too fast, by the time you switched to C4, they are already far away. They can go at full speed at all times, why go slow? The reason why LAs easily C4 tanks and Sundy is because they are normally stationary targets.



Harassers need a real nerf

- Make vehicle repair optional on defense slot (armor or repair-on-the-go. pick your sidegrade, not both)

- Armor need to be significantly reduced. It's a BUGGY not a tank. A buggy. That's why it has speed. It has damage avoidance vs. direct damage mitigation. Imagine if my beloved Flash has this much armor. You know how long a Flash can take down a tank even from a backside using Basilisk? Stop trying to turn a buggy into a tank upgrade. Their speed and change-of-direction at will is more than enough. They are hard to hit because it's difficult to predict which direction it will go (couple that with their speed) and you have a hack-mode vehicle.

- They need to be damaged upon vehicle or infantry collision.

- Marauders H need a nerf too. It's a C4 projectile. They have to significantly reduce ammo and damage/radius. Compare it to Anti-infantry Bulldog. This thing is ridiculous.

- I hear Harassers have no modified directional damage. They need be more vulnerable at the sides and back just like tanks.

- Make them more vulnerable to flipping. My scout Flash is hard to drive. These Harassers fly all over the place and not even flip.

- Vulcan H needs a real nerf. It's an powerfully upgraded Basilisk. It's good against vehicles, infantry, and aircraft. Think Basilisk sidegrade not upgrade. If it's good a AV, it has to tickle us infantry not kill us in a millisecond. Aircraft damage has to be reduced too.

- Damage must be significantly reduced especially at range. They can hit you at their speed. You can't hit them at that speed. Significant, it has to be significant. If they can't be hit at long range, they shouldn't be able to damage anything at long range.

Have the Developers even fought or encountered a Harasser, much less a Harasser spam? They pick the fights, they escape when they want to. They can ambush you if they want to (you can't escape), you can't ambush them if you want to (they escape easily). That's the problem. There's no dps in any form that can damage it enough before it can skedaddle out of view/range.


Nanoweave and Snipers

- I'll wait for the actual post, but these Snipers complaining about nanoweave want low risk/high reward situations. Snipers are already kill-streakers. The current system is fine. All these guys do is deploy spam until they get to a high cliff, high mountain, high building, top of tower, top of antenna, top of tree, then snipe with impunity with very low risk and high rewards. And they still want some more?

They don't need to fix what's not broken. All these buffs to Vulcan, HE etc. weren't necessary at all in the first place. All they did was break stuff for months. Just go to any Youtube videos of Snipers killing nonstop and you'll see there's nothing to fix.

[GreyFrog]

Compare the Marauder to the M40, not the Bulldog, and I'm not convinced its as OP as everyone thinks.

As far as I can tell they are making most your changes.

[Varsam]

The radar change makes no sense to me, but I'm glad they're finally addressing the harasser. It's about damn time.

Saron and Enforcer are just as devastating as the Vulcan if not -marginally- better (that's a big if), the difference is Vulcan is more popular because everyone knows and loves a rotating cannon that kills stuff so you naturally see 2-3 vulcans for every 1 of the other guns.

That's really not why there are more vulcans over Sarons/Enforcers.

[Babyfark McGeez]

The harasser is too fast, so...we don't do anything about that. Yeah. Makes sense.
I managed to C4 a harasser once. As in one time. Compared to the countless tanks i downed in the same amount of time. Can't say anything about mines, but if what has been said here is true and they simply outspeed the actual explosion, well then that's overall a complete non-solution to the problem.

The actual solution would be so easy and obvious; That thing is too fast, so make it a tad slower AND make it so it has to bloody stand still to be repaired.
There, harasser fixed.

[Sledgecrushr]

I thought that decreasing the speed of the harasser as you increased the amount of composite armor would have been a good solution.

[BlaxicanX]

You shouldn't be able to C4 a harrasser anyway. That's like complaining about not being able to C4 an ESF.

[OCNSethy]

Nanoweave and Snipers

- I'll wait for the actual post, but these Snipers complaining about nanoweave want low risk/high reward situations. Snipers are already kill-streakers. The current system is fine. All these guys do is deploy spam until they get to a high cliff, high mountain, high building, top of tower, top of antenna, top of tree, then snipe with impunity with very low risk and high rewards. And they still want some more?


Please dont bunch us all in the same basket there Mordelicius :)

Some of us work very hard to get to that great spot. Personally, I cant be arsed deploy spamming, waste of good shoot'in time, really.

Having said that, I agree with you regarding nanoweave. Its fine as is.

I will be interested in what they are proposing also.

[Dodgy Commando]

You don't have to necessarily plant C4 on a target for it to be effective...

That being said, I was not aware mines did not detonate fast enough to destroy Harassers. Possible lag/sync issue?

Glad they are looking into balancing the Harasser weapons to fit its playstyle without allowing it to encroach on other ranges. A sound approach that doesn't require too much new work it would seem.

[VikingKong]

You shouldn't be able to C4 a harrasser anyway. That's like complaining about not being able to C4 an ESF.
Which is precisely why people brought it up. A buff to something that's nigh on impossible is not a buff.


I still say mid-fight repairs for a supposedly "hit-and-run style" vehicle makes no sense. Where's the running come into it? They have less reason to run than any other vehicle. :confused:
Still, at least they're doing something.

[Badjuju]

Alot of these proposed Harasser changes make no sense. It proves the Devs are out of touch with the actual live gameplay.

- Harassers do not get damaged by Mines (they are too fast). By the time the mine explodes, they are already away from the damage radius. How many AV mines have I wasted on these things defending a Sundy/Pathways etc. Too much. They are not effective at all.

- C4 on Harassers. If PS2 has a Shingeki no Kyojin movement system, this would be useful, but only fools would allow their Harassers to get C4ed. They move too fast, by the time you switched to C4, they are already far away. They can go at full speed at all times, why go slow? The reason why LAs easily C4 tanks and Sundy is because they are normally stationary targets.



Harassers need a real nerf

- Make vehicle repair optional on defense slot (armor or repair-on-the-go. pick your sidegrade, not both)

- Armor need to be significantly reduced. It's a BUGGY not a tank. A buggy. That's why it has speed. It has damage avoidance vs. direct damage mitigation. Imagine if my beloved Flash has this much armor. You know how long a Flash can take down a tank even from a backside using Basilisk? Stop trying to turn a buggy into a tank upgrade. Their speed and change-of-direction at will is more than enough. They are hard to hit because it's difficult to predict which direction it will go (couple that with their speed) and you have a hack-mode vehicle.

- They need to be damaged upon vehicle or infantry collision.

- Marauders H need a nerf too. It's a C4 projectile. They have to significantly reduce ammo and damage/radius. Compare it to Anti-infantry Bulldog. This thing is ridiculous.

- I hear Harassers have no modified directional damage. They need be more vulnerable at the sides and back just like tanks.

- Make them more vulnerable to flipping. My scout Flash is hard to drive. These Harassers fly all over the place and not even flip.

- Vulcan H needs a real nerf. It's an powerfully upgraded Basilisk. It's good against vehicles, infantry, and aircraft. Think Basilisk sidegrade not upgrade. If it's good a AV, it has to tickle us infantry not kill us in a millisecond. Aircraft damage has to be reduced too.

- Damage must be significantly reduced especially at range. They can hit you at their speed. You can't hit them at that speed. Significant, it has to be significant. If they can't be hit at long range, they shouldn't be able to damage anything at long range.

Have the Developers even fought or encountered a Harasser, much less a Harasser spam? They pick the fights, they escape when they want to. They can ambush you if they want to (you can't escape), you can't ambush them if you want to (they escape easily). That's the problem. There's no dps in any form that can damage it enough before it can skedaddle out of view/range.


Nanoweave and Snipers

- I'll wait for the actual post, but these Snipers complaining about nanoweave want low risk/high reward situations. Snipers are already kill-streakers. The current system is fine. All these guys do is deploy spam until they get to a high cliff, high mountain, high building, top of tower, top of antenna, top of tree, then snipe with impunity with very low risk and high rewards. And they still want some more?

They don't need to fix what's not broken. All these buffs to Vulcan, HE etc. weren't necessary at all in the first place. All they did was break stuff for months. Just go to any Youtube videos of Snipers killing nonstop and you'll see there's nothing to fix.

I destroy harassers with c4 and and tank mines all the time, its really not that hard. Every point you bring up is extremely exaggerated so trying to make any kind of argument with you is probably a waste of my time.

My favorite however is how harassers never flip lol! You obviously have not spent any significant time in a harasser because they flip all the time as if they had a loaded spring underneath them just waiting to go off after the slightest bump. Sounds like an amazing idea though. Lets balance vehicles by making them incredibly prone to flipping upside down and exploding.

To be able to make balance arguments you need to have spent considerable time gaining perspective from both sides. It's obvious from your post that you have not done that.

[maradine]

Which is precisely why people brought it up. A buff to something that's nigh on impossible is not a buff.


I still say mid-fight repairs for a supposedly "hit-and-run style" vehicle makes no sense. Where's the running come into it? They have less reason to run than any other vehicle. :confused:
Still, at least they're doing something.

Yeah, this is actually my least favorite thing about the Harasser. I think it (and a bunch of other things) could be fixed by increasing the seat swap time, though.

[Badjuju]

Which is precisely why people brought it up. A buff to something that's nigh on impossible is not a buff.


I still say mid-fight repairs for a supposedly "hit-and-run style" vehicle makes no sense. Where's the running come into it? They have less reason to run than any other vehicle. :confused:
Still, at least they're doing something.

You can take out harassers quite easily be preemtively placing c4 or even baiting them onto c4. Your c4 doesn't need to be on a harasser to do a ton of damage, and now that damage is getting a boost. The purpose of the change is as stated. To make careless drivers pay even more for getting too close.

Personally I like that harassers can repair while moving. They take allot of damage very quick, and will now be taking more. I think people underestimate how quickly a harrasser can be burned down, even by a squad of infantry who is focusing small arms fire. The way harrasers function now really makes them a great team based vehicle where good crews will stand out against others, and most importantly it makes them incredibly fun.

Sounds like some good changes overall to tone them down just a bit.

[Laakus]

Since I spend the majority of my time Harassing I'd like to share my thoughts on this. First, the minor changes like prox radar in the defense options is not exactly huge because when it comes down to it, Im still gonna run comp armor 90% of the time for my buggy. I know that it helps tanks out much more, but like I said, I'm in it for the harasser aspect.

Now to the more important stuff, nerfing our range, I mean, if I went to the trouble to cert out the 2.0x scope, actually have the luck to see a lightning that far off in the distance like on a mountain (that one inbetween crown and xroads comes to mind) and shoot at it in a timely manner cause the saron goes all over the place if you just spam it. I dont think it should be nerfed, I have to stay relatively still for my gunner and that tank still has a chance to hit us back....

Third, have the Dev's ever tried to take on a Vanguard as a harasser when they have BAD coordination let alone GOOD coordination. Its damn hard to do, so buffing their damage and forcing me to get closer than I'd like ( I try to stay at least 75 to 100 meters away, it forces the Vanguard/Prowler to rely on his secondary gunner to kill us and gives us 50/50 odds) is just kinda mean considering I lose over half my life with 1 main shot and an enforcer shot. I mean, depending on luck they have to get 3-4 shots, where as the harasser has to unload 3-4 clips, and thats butt shots which are hard to come by.

As far as infantry, I feel like its balance already as well. Hello striker, goodbye half my health on the buggy. I dont know what that guy who said that we dont blow up to tank mines was smoking because at night, on a bridge or anything like that, Ive died multiple times to them. C-4 is much rarer, but it happens when Im hanging around tech plants picking off infantry while I wait for the cap, and dont get me started on flipping, just thinking about flipping causes it to happen. In fact Im 50/50 in terms of death to flipping as I am with tanks, its annoying but you get over it.

On a final note, if we have a 3rd guy in the back healing us, we deserved to be a little stronger than a tank, think about it. Were still technically the weaker vehicle in terms of armor, we still only have 1 gun to fight back with, we still have to perform as a team, over 2 man vehicles, and its not like the repair gun lasts forever. The driver still has to maneuver in a way that keeps him relatively safe, oh and the third guy will probably get shot out half the time, and if you manage to get all 3 thats 3 kills AND a buggy, its a goldmine of certs. Thats my rant on how I think Harassers are already balanced, most of you will disagree, but Im ok with that, cause I said my peace....

[Sardus]

Ugh, I was really hoping that the ZOE would be one of the first things that they tweak after the optimization patch.

But any kind of balance patch is a good one. So glad to see they are working on them.

[Mordelicius]

I destroy harassers with c4 and and tank mines all the time, its really not that hard. Every point you bring up is extremely exaggerated so trying to make any kind of argument with you is probably a waste of my time.

My favorite however is how harassers never flip lol! You obviously have not spent any significant time in a harasser because they flip all the time as if they had a loaded spring underneath them just waiting to go off after the slightest bump. Sounds like an amazing idea though. Lets balance vehicles by making them incredibly prone to flipping upside down and exploding.

To be able to make balance arguments you need to have spent considerable time gaining perspective from both sides. It's obvious from your post that you have not done that.

Right. You'd want me to believe that Harassers that are hard to hit as it is with fast, projectile weapons can be C4ed just fine lol. What are you going to do, wait on a tree for hours until some really slow and clueless Harasser passes by? :lol:

Also, these Harassers just literally swoop over tank mines. They are that fast. If Tank mines and C4 counter Harassers, the outrage against it will be lesser. Just look at all the Tank/Sundy drivers who curse on LAs C4ing them. The difference is those two are almost always STATIONARY when getting c4ed. So no, I believe you're the mistaken one. And do you happen to be TR? Because, TR Vulcan/Marauders are insanely OP. You have to be NC or even Vanu to truly appreciate the devastation they cause.

As for Harassers flipping, lol, yeah if you're flying it 15-20 feet in the air like an acrobat it may flip. Even in those situations, it's rare that they flip. It's far too stable and it has like crazy shock absorbers too. Compare it to my Flash which will flip in a tiny bump. And if you flip on the side (not upside down), you can't exit a Flash (exits are blocked).

You're free to pick apart my arguments as much as you like. If you disagree with it, then post your counterpoints. Post it as long or as short as you like.

PS. We playtested the Harassers in the PTS before it even came out. Do you want me to quote my 'review' of Harassers in April's PTS tests? My point then was basically it was OP and it will essentially replace tanks.

[Mordelicius]

Compare the Marauder to the M40, not the Bulldog, and I'm not convinced its as OP as everyone thinks.

As far as I can tell they are making most your changes.

Fury? SURE! Compare how many TR use Marauders in lieu of the Fury.

And compare NC or VS Fury users to TR fury users.

There's a chart out there by Maradine or another person. TR don't even use the Fury because they have a far upgraded version called the Marauder.

[maradine]

I got out of the chart business, but I do provide gems from time to time -

Average daily TR Fury-H users, global, 50 day set: 94.
Average daily Marauder-H users, global, 50 day set: 837.

[HereticusXZ]

Yes Harassers flip, frequently, PS2 Vehicle physics are awkward to say it kindly.

Saron, Vulcan and Enforcer are all and should be OP, That's the nature of Faction Specific Weapons to be stronger then the common stuff which is why it makes them difficult to balance. No one is more OP then the other, they all destroy most any vehicle fast in 2 clips or less and rape infantry.

Did you know they can snipe to? Infantry usually don't notice this inside there safe Infantry only zones but vehicles render at 800m+. Enforcer' pretty accurate at range, Saron if you fire slowly can to, Vulcan struggles with accuracy after 450m in my experience but if you single shot burst and adapt for bullet drop it can compete... Then there's the Halberd which is suppose to be for long-range. My point is the Harasser can snipe with powerful weapons!

Take these powerful weapons and mount them on a vehicle with a small profile that drives faster then most weapons can shoot and you have a obnoxiously hard to hit target on average that you have no chance against 1v1 because of it's small profile it will usually ambush you and get the first hit on you which is all it needs to kill you. Unless you gang up on it with a squad or ambush it with the first hit when it's not looking.

It's kind of obnoxious that a Harasser, this dinky little buggie, pending on it's Composite armor level can endure 3-4 AP main cannon shots from a MBT and repair on the move... I wish Nanite Auto Repair could repair my Tank while I'm under attack...

Yes! Make the weapons roles more defined with range differences and Yes! Make the harasser marginally more vulnerable to damage because of it's obnoxious speed, small profile, and Ability to repair on the move.

All this talk of Speed with Powerful attacks, I wonder when they will address ZOE again...

[Jax Blake]

Hmm wonder what Maradine's stats have to say about average kill per user for fury and maruader, doubt it's that far off.

[Plaqueis]

I'll just drop this here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dGxYX2xyNG53TERHRjk3a2xTS21JR 2c&usp=sharing#gid=0

They're a month old, but i doubt anything has changed.

[Blynd]

I'll just drop this here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dGxYX2xyNG53TERHRjk3a2xTS21JR 2c&usp=sharing#gid=0

They're a month old, but i doubt anything has changed.

oh dear i do hope that shuts up the "its fine " brigade. harrisser is fun but is op and needs these changes so hopefully it will find its place between the lightening and MTB's cause atm you pull a harriser instead of a mtb because its faster its more powerful and can soak up more damage then a mtb. With these changes it should be where it was intended.

I also fear that the empire specific buggys are ready soon so its time to nerf the harrasser and its weapons for the next VOTM.

[Plaqueis]

oh dear i do hope that shuts up the "its fine " brigade. harrisser is fun but is op and needs these changes so hopefully it will find its place between the lightening and MTB's cause atm you pull a harriser instead of a mtb because its faster its more powerful and can soak up more damage then a mtb. With these changes it should be where it was intended.

I also fear that the empire specific buggys are ready soon so its time to nerf the harrasser and its weapons for the next VOTM.

Well, i posted it mostly for those who claimed that empire specific Harrasser weapons are equal... I even saw some dude say that Saron and Enforcer are better than Vulcan.

[KesTro]

Yeah the Marauder - Fury stats are roughly similar although the numbers are even larger given they're hunting mostly infantry instead of vehicles. Although I recall them saying they'll be nerfing the marauder namely because it's as if they forgot to nerf it when they nerfed the fury.

[Shamrock]

Ive been moaning/cursing about vulcan harrasers for months on voice comms, my outfit mates will be relieved to finally get a respite from my strings of expletives related to them :)

Ive watched a single Vulcan harraser chew up 4 (admittedly stock) mags in a row, it is utter BS that a buggy is able to beat the crap out of any armour that isn't an experienced MBT driver/gunner running AP.

[PredatorFour]

Vulcan Harrassers are badass yeh but the Saron Harrasser is certainly a formidable foe too. I think what they need to do is make the armor weaker. Leave the weapons and speed as it is but make them get f**ked up easy like a buggy should.

[Shamrock]

Ugh, I was really hoping that the ZOE would be one of the first things that they tweak after the optimization patch.

But any kind of balance patch is a good one. So glad to see they are working on them.

You know I always used to feel kind of guilty using anything that was supposedly OP like the ZoE, but when im facing striker locks, fracture MAX's and Vulcan harassers the guilty feeling quickly evaporates ;)

[Shamrock]

Vulcan Harrassers are badass yeh but the Saron Harrasser is certainly a formidable foe too. I think what they need to do is make the armor weaker. Leave the weapons and speed as it is but make them get f**ked up easy like a buggy should.

Saron harrasers may be good, but 46794 Vulcan kills to 10788 Saron kills over a 9 day sample period shows they are not even in the same ball park.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dGxYX2xyNG53TERHRjk3a2xTS21JR 2c&usp=sharing#gid=0

[maradine]

Saron harrasers may be good, but 46794 Vulcan kills to 10788 Saron kills over a 9 day sample period shows they are not even in the same ball park.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dGxYX2xyNG53TERHRjk3a2xTS21JR 2c&usp=sharing#gid=0

That's largely popularity talking - the Saron-H and Vulcan-H don't produce all that differently per person. I think the more important balance fulcrums here are the Harasser vs. the MBT vs. the soldier - once that's been rejiggered a bit we can dive back in on the individual loadouts.

Except for the Enforcer pair, of course. :)

[Chewy]

Saron harrasers may be good, but 46794 Vulcan kills to 10788 Saron kills over a 9 day sample period shows they are not even in the same ball park.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dGxYX2xyNG53TERHRjk3a2xTS21JR 2c&usp=sharing#gid=0

If you have about 4 times the number of users, you best have about 4 times the number of kills. Kill total is rather pointless cross factions but might be something to look into when just talking about a single faction.

The things I see that need looked at in that link is the massive amount of users for TR and how the KPU scales with BR. But this is just 3 weapons out of 20ish. Then you have outside factors that effect some factions vehicles more than others like infantry weapons.

Not just Strikers, all ESAV weapons for infantry and MAXes. TR have a good lock-on and easy to use Fractures, VS get Lancers and Vortexes that you almost can't miss with, and NC have slow guided Phoenixes and Ravens with max range capped at 300m-350m. Accounting for those weapons it's no wonder why NC vehicle weapons are under performing next to other factions.

You tend to loose details when focusing on parts of data. Big picture and all. Even though that term kinda counters itself. Looking at a big picture or painting blurs out the details and focusing shows those details. Looking at data is more or less the exact opposite of that.

[Plaqueis]

If you have about 4 times the number of users, you best have about 4 times the number of kills. Kill total is rather pointless cross factions but might be something to look into when just talking about a single faction.

The things I see that need looked at in that link is the massive amount of users for TR and how the KPU scales with BR. But this is just 3 weapons out of 20ish. Then you have outside factors that effect some factions vehicles more than others like infantry weapons.

Not just Strikers, all ESAV weapons for infantry and MAXes. TR have a good lock-on and easy to use Fractures, VS get Lancers and Vortexes that you almost can't miss with, and NC have slow guided Phoenixes and Ravens with max range capped at 300m-350m. Accounting for those weapons it's no wonder why NC vehicle weapons are under performing next to other factions.

You tend to loose details when focusing on parts of data. Big picture and all. Even though that term kinda counters itself. Looking at a big picture or painting blurs out the details and focusing shows those details. Looking at data is more or less the exact opposite of that.

Lancer? Seriously?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dFotUDlzV0RTRjZ0bXlia3JlajZnZ Wc&usp=sharing#gid=0

Vortexes are good after you buy them on both hands and buy ZOE on top. 1 Vortex without ZOE is just as pathetic as Lancer is. Being able to hit stuff means nothing if you can't do damage.

And btw, the Phoenix might be slow but atleast it's guided and hits like a hammer.

[ChipMHazard]

Lancers are great when used in large enough numbers to instakill anything they hit. That's not really something that stats can show.

[Chewy]

Lancer? Seriously?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AshlLUNJ_SE8dFotUDlzV0RTRjZ0bXlia3JlajZnZ Wc&usp=sharing#gid=0

Vortexes are good after you buy them on both hands and buy ZOE on top. 1 Vortex without ZOE is just as pathetic as Lancer is. Being able to hit stuff means nothing if you can't do damage.

And btw, the Phoenix might be slow but atleast it's guided and hits like a hammer.

Lancers/Vortexes are good at AV. They just lack in raw killing power. Id rather have a Lancer (or railgun to fit NC lore) than a Striker or Phoenix to be honest. The rare time I do play HA I mainly use the Phoenix to scout or just keep a Hawk for AA and dumbfire, maybe use a deci if I need the extra punch.

Phoenix hits like a truck, but has some very hard negatives.
1, its DPS is shit from not only needing a normal reload time but you have to add travel time to that as well. It can be up to a 20 second fire time, it's better to try and hit the repairman than the vehicle. If you don't you're just feeding him endless repair points as he out heals any damage you can do, un-certed at times.

2, it has both a min and ever changing max range. Want to use it in cover? Then you have at least a 40m-100m min range gap to guide around that cover depending on the covers size. Also you cut your max range with every turn. That means your cover shooting lowers the max range to maybe 200m-250m if that on standing targets, less if they are moving. At most you'll get 290m if your target is standing still and your in the open.

3, you're completely defenseless when using it. The best you can do is duck down for a smaller hit box. You can't move, can't see, can't hear, can't know anything around you without it hurting you. Iv had players stand in my face to ***** me after returning to my body and I had no way to know till it was to late.

4, it is near impossible to hit moving targets. Doable yes, but only with luck. Infantry aren't to hard to follow and lead, but a moving vehicle takes a lot of luck and/or great timing.


Strikers now that they need to keep a lock have a much lower DPS but still can do good damage on any vehicle they wish. It's annoying to maintain a lock but it's better than the Phoenix thanks to longer range and no need to worry about a anything but tracking. You can still bug out at any moment you hear a cloak or something. No dumbfire though is a big negative, but a 500m range and a short lock timer makes up for that I think.


Then we have Lancers. You see it, you hurt it just about. If those things didn't have low damage then it would be beyond OP. If a Lancer wants your vehicle dead there is nothing you can do but keeping it 100% behind cover. Leave any part exposed and you're getting hit. No other weapon can just make things go POOF without a single warning when used in a team. No need to even charge it, just pepper something and it will run for cover. Not even a turbo Harasser can do much to avoid Lancer fire. The biggest downside is the low damage that gives drivers time to bail, a good trade if you ask me.


I main as a support player. Even when I play as a non support class I can't help but support in any way I can. Recon cloaker, scouting heavy, shield wall MAX, and Im just not into LA so that class is ignored. Given my playstyle it might have been better for me to be VS from all of those GREAT support weapons. But their lore is a crap reason for me to fight and I can't stand those colors. Love the weapons, hate the faction and if this game had PS1 inventory Id be trading for those weapons so I can use them. Hell a Lasher is my biggest fear as a NC MAX under C4. Fire a few times at the foot of a door and it is going to hit me from the lack of range with shotguns.

Meet some rouge VS trooper in a common field. I drop my payment, he drops his goods. We both walk away happy.

[Plaqueis]

Lancers are great when used in large enough numbers to instakill anything they hit. That's not really something that stats can show.

Ehh.. can't afford committing a platoon worth of infantry just for Lancer duty on every fight, we're constantly outnumbered as it is...

About Chewys wall of text; for each his own i guess, i'll stick to the Nemesis. I bought the Lancer when it came, tried it few times and gave up, haven't used it since. I don't have the LAsher and probably never will, as i can't see any use for it.

[CzuukWaterson]

Doesn't seem like any chance that the relative effectiveness of empire specific top mount vehicle weapons will be addressed.

[ChipMHazard]

Ehh.. can't afford committing a platoon worth of infantry just for Lancer duty on every fight, we're constantly outnumbered as it is...


If by that you mean about a squad's worth (8-10). Of course that's for instakilling MBTs (not from the rear), half as many would be able to seriously damage MBTs.

[typhaon]

This isn't rocket science.

There have been some serious imbalance issues for way, waaaaaay too many months.

Quick changes that would bring the game into a better balance CAN BE MADE... without impacting whatever longer term specs some gameplay/balance theorist has.

ex. Remove the speed boost from ZOE. Is that the perfect move? I don't know. Is ZOE still OP? Is ZOE now a little UP? Whatever it is... I can guarantee it's a lot closer to balance than we have now.

^A few "clicks of the mouse" is probably all that would take.

[Plaqueis]

If by that you mean about a squad's worth (8-10). Of course that's for instakilling MBTs (not from the rear), half as many would be able to seriously damage MBTs.

No, i ment platoon worth. Anyways, point is why bother when with any other weapon 3-4 guys will have the same effect..?

Meh.. let's agree to disagree and not derail the thread, ok?

[Blynd]

The lancer and pheonox are not balanced with the striker. The striker allows a single player to take out an mbt or esf with just having to maintain lock/once locked they all hit buggyness. But as you point out a squad of lancers are needed to achieve the same result ergo not effective at all infact I'd rather use my hades then my lancer.

[typhaon]

^A lot of people make the mistake of comparing unlike things.

Lancer, Phoenix, and Striker... while they are all ESRL - are clearly not designed for the same roles. Striker is basically another option for the Annihilator and 2 Lock-ons. Phoenix fills kind of an unknown role... it's good for hitting hidden tanks and sundies if you are near to them and able to remain hidden for 5 or 6 seconds per shot... Lancer is great for long-range, no warning, no defense, easy hit, group instakill on enemy vehicles.

Jackhammer, Lasher, and MCG... again, while all are ESHW - they are all clearly designed to do different things. JH is a shotgun. MCG is a LMG. Similar to the Lancer, the Lasher fills a role the other factions don't have... so it's hard to make a comparison.