Implants, take 2.

[Chewy]

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/april-tentative-implants.169730/


Implants in Planetside 2 have gone through several conceptual iterations based on player feedback and shifting design goals. The goal of the implant system remains the same as before; to allow players to make additional strategic loadout choices to better deal with situations they come across in game.

In the revised design of the implant system, implants are still consumable, however, they now are generated based on in-game activities such as scoring kills, destroying vehicles, etc. You can think of this like a pseudo-loot system, although there will be no corpses to rummage through, the implants will be automatically given to players when earned. In addition to receiving an implant from “drops”, players will be able to purchase some, but not all, implants for certification points or Station Cash, or by deconstructing implants from their inventory.

Implants have Power Levels which can be thought of as “tiers”, with higher Power Level implants having more powerful effects. For example; the Audio-Amp Implant may spot player firing their weapons on the minimap at a longer range with a higher Power Level implant. Low Power Level implants will drop more frequently, mid-Power Level implants will drop rarely. The Highest Power Level implants will only be available from special unlocks, for example from the WDS or Directives system, or by using the new deconstruction mechanic. With the deconstruction mechanic, several implants can be “combined” into a single implant of the same or a higher Power Level, for instance, if you combined 2 random Implants of the same Power Level you would receive a new, random Implant of that same Power Level. If you combined 3 random Implants of the same Power Level, you would receive 1 implant of the Power Level tier up. Using this mechanism players can recycle unwanted Implants into ones they may like more.

In order to make the system more fair, all players will receive a default benefit from an unused implant slot, this benefit is intended to be as generic and universally useful as possible, for example; increased health regen. By slotting an implant players are giving up that broader benefit in order to specialize in a particular area. Our hope is that this allows advanced players to tailor their gameplay better for the situations or playstyles they find themselves in the most while still providing a counter-balancing benefit to players who do not want to manage implants.

Our initial plan is to roll out the implants system with the following implants available.

Audio Amplifier

Increases the “fire detect range” stat on enemy weapons. This will increase the range at which enemies show up on the mini-map when they fire their weapon.
Amplifies the footstep audio of all enemy players.


Battle Hardened

Reduces the camera shake from all explosions.
Flinch when being hit by enemy projectiles or proximity damage is reduced.


Enhanced Targeting

Allows the player to mouseover and see enemy names at range.
Allows player to see health of armor.
Extends IFF range of reticule.


Range Finder

Shows distance to target.


Ammo

Causes killed enemy players to spawn ammunition pickups. Does not apply to explosives.


Awareness

Auto-spots enemies who damage or kill you.
Auto-spots enemies that you damage.


Quick Use

Speeds up the use of all grenades, items, placed explosives, and deployables.
Also speeds up the swap and use times of all non-weapons.


Sensor Shield

Makes the player undetectable to enemy radar unless sprinting.
Makes the player undetectable by enemy motion sensors unless sprinting.


Safe Landing

Reduced fall damage.


Stealth

Halves spotted duration.
Reduces the audio range of your footsteps.


Thermal Reduction

Prevents the wearer from being highlighted by night and thermal vision. Infantry only.


Clear Vision

Protects player from concussion and flash grenades.


EMP Shielding

Protects player from EMP grenades.


EOD HUD

Close-range enemy explosives are highlighted.

[bpostal]

So...I'll have to grind daily quests for the implant I want? I'm not sure how to feel about that. My initial, gut reaction is rather negative.

As to the implants themselves, I'm leery of implants that remove the effects of my grenades. I really dislike the autospot as well; can't stress that enough.

[Dougnifico]

I still don't think implants should be consumables.

Also, no to a range finder implant. Make that a weapon attachment.

[KesTro]

Yeah I don't really care what the implants are they'll balance themselves out over time. I absolutely do not want to see them be consumable though. I don't want another grind, make them an expensive global cert slot for each class or something along those lines. Hell if I know. :F

[Babyfark McGeez]

Sounds like an awful attempt to ape Call of Duty killstreak rewards.

Shit in this game shouldn't be based even more on personal performance and a "gratification/reward" mindset.
The whole XP/Cert system is allready based on that (instead of putting the emphasis on your factions performance - where it should be put).

Implants could be a (small) way to get some "MMO" customization into this...ahem..."MMOFPS". Instead they seem to want to turn them into "powerups".

Oh, and ofc they will be sold for SC. What a shitty idea.

[DynamoECT]

SOE: Wow, people are really hostile towards consumable implants. We'll have to rethink them for a few months, and tell everyone we're listening to them.

(Time passes)

SOE: OK, we're ready to announce our completely rethought implant system. Ladies and gentlemen, we are proud to announce .......consumable implants!

[Fara]

Hmmm how long does said Implant last?

[BlaxicanX]

SOE: Wow, people are really hostile towards consumable implants. We'll have to rethink them for a few months, and tell everyone we're listening to them.

(Time passes)

SOE: OK, we're ready to announce our completely rethought implant system. Ladies and gentlemen, we are proud to announce .......consumable implants!

To be fair, the major problems people had with consumable implants before is that you could buy them with real money- thus the game slides more toward P2W.

[Vashyo]

I dont see how you can do implants right so I'd rather not get them at all. people will just stick to the best one anyways.

Also I dont want to equip them all the time, better to have something static that has a cooldown

[ChipMHazard]

Sadly it seems like you will still be able to get implants via SC, which was one of the main reasons why people hated the last version of the implants.

I'm not a fan of introducing this kind of grinding into the game nor am I a fan of the thermal reduction, clear vision and emp shield implants.

[AThreatToYou]

I'm just getting the feeling that we shouldn't have implants at all now.

[Emperor Newt]

Two questions:

1. Who at SOE comes up with these ideas?
2. Why isn't there anybody in the office saying: "Guys? This is stupid."

Desperate cert sink that makes better players even better. Yeah, that's what the game needed.
I can only wonder how players new to the game (and already have a metric shit-ton of stuff to cert into) will like this...

[Calista]

This is inevitable so just let it go. They need to make more money it is clear. I can imagine there will be highly sought after, very fast to deplete, impossible to get certs/resources for implants, for sale anytime you want to buy them. You can only make so many cosmetics before things start to get out of hand you know so they need another avenue of revenue generation. Man I hate F2P. Rather than just flat out making the game better they have to spend their time figuring out how to nickel and dime us.

[DredVS]

Implants should enhance personal gameplay rather than detract from another's gameplay.

See: Awareness implant. Basically ruins Infiltrators and makes Suppressors even less of a good choice to equip.

[Qwan]

Were is the dark vision for spotting cloakers thats the only implant I want.

[VikingKong]

My, how time flies. Just got done with Christmas and it's already the 1st of April. Shit. I missed my birthday. :(

[Rahabib]

yea this system still has the same issues as the old system they provided.

How about this. They are obviously worried about milking more SC cause everyone already has everything in the game. Fine.

You can use certs or SC to buy permanent implants. There are three levels of implants (1-3, bronze-gold, or whatever). higher level implants cost more certs/SC. You can minimize this using resource boosts.

As you play, you can "activate" your implant, doing so, it drains your resources. Kinda like buying grenades, etc. Lower level implants drains like a trickle. Higher level ones don't last as long as they drain faster.

Why this system?


There is trade off. lower resources. Higher level implants have a higher level of trade off than lower level ones. Its not just whoever is using an implant has just better capabilities and probably just paying to win. To reduce the pay to win aspect, there needs to be consequences so that people only use them in strategic situations.
Reduces grind. Its not about just buying an implant then grinding to make them effective. People who don't play as long can still get the same benefits of those who play all the time. This makes the game more about skill than time playing the game.
Sony still gets SC. In fact tying it to resources makes buying and using boots and memberships even more important - its a double dip win, but allows people to use certs without them feel like they are just blowing it for a few hours to just be competitive.
Makes resources somewhat more important. Right now we have resources, but they rarely feel like they are rare or precious. In my example, it would be tied to infantry resources, but this means - do I use the resources for my implant or pull a max?


This is just an idea, and probably needs a few tweaks of course.

[DynamoECT]

I've had a think about it, and am prepared to see how it goes with this system. I like that having no implant gets some form of benefit. So far I think the game is quite good in its dealing of pay vs free, making it pay to have stuff quicker rather than total pay to win - especially compared to some other games that are completely biased to the paying players. They seem to need some form of Cert sink or money revenue added, I just hope it all works for everyone.

[Ruffdog]

Just bite the bullet SOE and bring back frickin Stamina

[ChipMHazard]

Just bite the bullet SOE and bring back frickin Stamina

On that note I wonder how they will actually balance the implants. Them being consumable and only last for a certain time does not proper balancing make.

[Baneblade]

I'll add my name to the don't do implants at all suggestion.

If they insist on adding them like this, at least add one called NC Parity, that makes NC weapons at least as accurate as TR weapons. I'm so over hard mode.

[War Barney]

yay... so we wanted a implant to help us see stealthers and instead we get a implant to help stealthers not be seen.... They really shouldn't have let an infiltrator do these implants

[JohnnyRicardo]

Really, SOE?

The whole idea of implants is just horrible in every single way. If you manage to get to that generator room filled with enemies, throw a concussion grenade, run inside and just get killed by some random dude with an implant? This just makes certain parts of the arsenal useless and certain scenarios straight out random.

It's hard enough to keep overview of situations as it is with loads of players, tanks and planes trying to kill you. And on top of all this you have a certain amount of players running around with implants. Hell no. Just hell no.

Are they getting desperate? Most people have what they need so they add something completely useless into this game to make some easy money?

[Falcon_br]

Come on guys, I am not likening the way implants are right now, but we need to brainstorm the idea.
We need something to keep people playing, we all know a dark vision implant will ruin infiltrator day, more them battle awareness, because you can just cloack to get away from spotting.
We need something to make people grind, I already don't have what to do with certs anymore, I know that my server got at least 500 BR 100 players that also doesn't need certs anymore.
So, if implants are not it, what shall we place in the game?
I really think implants should be permanent, but the unlock should be from some kind of active, like 100 defenses will give you battle awareness, 100 silenced kills will give you something about stealth, 100 kills with a sniper rifle the range finder.
But I really think the ranger finder will help more tank gunners then snipers, all good sniper know how to calculate distance on this game with the milidots, doing that with those horrible tank sights, are a lot more hard, I can do it, but most people can, and we could use better tanks sights.
Just brainstorm the idea, maybe the implant can last one week, you can have just one of each into your pool, when activated, you can get another into your pool, so when it expires you already have another ready to use. And they will be like boosters, if you replace it, you will lose your last one.

[JohnnyRicardo]

If they really want people to grind they should just adjust the battlerank cap to like 110 or so.

[BlaxicanX]

Why? Your battle rank means absolutely nothing. There would be literally zero incentive to grind that.

[JohnnyRicardo]

Well, it gives people a goal. Pointless? Sure, and that's the beauty about it. People have something to work for that doesn't include giving players unfair advantages. In fact, the core gameplay should be so fun that grinding shouldn't be a necessity.

[Emperor Newt]

So, if implants are not it, what shall we place in the game?
ANTs and continental lattice would be a good start.

[Baneblade]

So, if implants are not it, what shall we place in the game?

If I decline to have my house burn down, which disaster would I prefer destroy it?

[JohnnyRicardo]

ANTs and continental lattice would be a good start.

Exactly!

[War Barney]

Grinding isn't the issue really, if the game is fun people will keep playing it regardless of having nothing to unlock, I don't play the game to unlock everything I play it cos I enjoy it, I unlock things that will give me more playstyle options.

What SOE wants is more stuff people will pay for so they can continue to make money as theres almost no incentive to get a subscription when you're capped. One thing that would help would be to let you transfer certs to other characters at say half or 1/4 the amount you want to transfer. By this I mean say you play NC and have 10k certs, but you want to try out TR, you can transfer those 10k certs from your NC to your TR but with a sort of transfer tax so you don't get them all. This would encourage people to get BR 100 with every faction.

I really want to give TR a go but theres nothing unlocked so it would take AGES to get even 1 class to the usefulness that my NC are, sure I could buy guns with upgrades you need to get with certs will still take ages (it doesn't help that I've got a 6 months 50% exp boost on my NC which encourages me to not play anything but NC till its finished).

As for back on topic to implants, they need to be either accessible easily OR things you buy for a lot of certs and upgrade (like suit upgrades) but stay around. If you make it so it takes ages to grind for good ones you may end up with a pay 2 win situation if they sell them for SC or at the very least make the good players have a even bigger advantage as they can get them constantly while newer players wont ever have them.

Somebody also raised a good point though that implants could end up being really annoying, the suggestion for one to make concussion grenades not work for example, who the hell is going to use concussion grenades if that is one of them? you would no longer be able to rely on it while a frag you could definitely rely on. And I'm fine with no implants to help see stealthers BUT its ridiculous that they are suggestion a implant to help stealthers not get seen, stealthers running around with incredibly powerful close range guns which are supposed to be balanced by a short range (which has no effect on a stealther so for them there is no downside) is already annoying as hell and a very common sight, the last thing we need is implants to make it even more impossible to do anything about it.

[Sledgecrushr]

These implants really need to be permanent. If soe needs more steady money then they should make membership more attractive.

[Falcon_br]

We all know that metagame is nice, but come on guys, what keeps most games alive are grinding.
I would love to have more metagame, but we all know we are the 1% that give 1 cent for it, most people just want to grind.
Membership more attractive... I heard that a long time ago and the first change will be on April, after they closed 4 games, which 2 I was planing to play if they were on the all access, but they no longer exists.

[Belhade]

Looks like someone from the Everquest team got lost and wandered into the wrong department. This kind of thing really doesn't belong in PS2.

[BlaxicanX]

Planetside 2 is a micro-transaction game. SOE could very easily just turn PS2 into a subscription-based game, and everyone would be forced to pay that monthly $15, which would solve all of these issues, but at the cost of the game's pop nose-diving even more than it already has (because the people who can't or won't pay 15 bucks a month simply won't play).

So as long as PS2 remains a micro-transaction game, where the game's survival literally depends on them nickle and diming you, there has to be a steady flow of additional content that costs actual money for people to get. And that content has to have some sort of appeal, otherwise no one is going to buy it. With the scope of the game being what it is, silly hats and camo patterns aren't enough to sustain it. They have to sell weapons and equipment that people are going to look at and feel like they're actually getting something of value for their 10 dollars, and we're very quickly reaching an over-saturation of guns. Thus, the whole "sidegrades only plz" thing is bullshit. P2W is simply an inevitable part of the F2P model. Shit needs to be good in order for people to buy it. People need to buy shit in order for the game to keep on going.

So, rather than constantly complaining about how unfair life is because of implants and other purchasables, can we please instead try to discuss balancing them as much as possible? If you're so adamant on the game not being P2W, send SOE an email petitioning them to make the game's subscription mandatory. Aside from the 15 dollar a month sub, you'll get your dreamworld of everything in-game being free and balanced.

- - - -

I don't necessarily mind the idea of implants being given to us as a reward for achieving certain goals, so long as that's only one option of attaining them and not the core option. I think all implants should be purchasable via either certs or SC, similar to Mechwarrior Online's system for consumables.

The biggest conundrum for me is how long they should last. There has to be a balance between the consumable lasting long enough for people to not have to constantly spend SC/certs on it, yet also short enough in duration that people who purchase them don't s have to sacrifice a high number of their SC/certs to purchase them regularly. Example being, as a subscriber I get 50 certs a day for free, and as a mediocre player I usually get around 40 certs in a day's playthrough (I tend to play for about an hour or two a day). So if you consider that I play for about 14 hours a week, what's fair?

I average about 900 certs a week. So would an implant costing 100 certs and lasting for 5 in-game hours be fair? If I wanted to use this implant forever, I'd need to spend 300 certs a week out of my 900 to renew it every 5 hours, that leaves 600 certs left to spend on weapons and other kewl shit. That doesn't sound too shabby, but then I'm also a subscriber. Take away my subscription bonus and suddenly that 300 a week is taking a bigger chunk out of my cert wallet.

And this isn't even getting into using station cash. That situation is even more delicate.

So, yah. Stuff.

[Timealude]

ANTs and continental lattice would be a good start.

but is that going to make this game more money just by adding ANTs and continental lattice? I personally hate that you can still buy these with SC but thats the only way they can make money. We learned recently that they dont make any money on SC till it's spent and im sure this would get people using SC a lot more often then now since everyone just saves it up till a helmet they like comes along.

Also no to dark light unless you want to make infiltrator a pointless class.

[Baneblade]

We learned recently that they dont make any money

It doesn't matter what SOE claims, they make money at the point of sale ($ for SC in that case), anything else is cooking the books and makes them a target for the Federal Trade Commission.

They can certainly call it a currency exchange if they want... but that means they are obligated to refund SC for it to qualify as such in actuality.

So no, their needing to increase SC sales is only indirectly related to these ridunculous implant schemes.

[camycamera]

Sadly it seems like you will still be able to get implants via SC, which was one of the main reasons why people hated the last version of the implants.

I'm not a fan of introducing this kind of grinding into the game nor am I a fan of the thermal reduction, clear vision and emp shield implants.

this.

i am not sure about where this is going. i dont like it. take 3, perhaps? and launch it with a "DO NOT ALLOW PURCHASE WITH SC" rule written all over it, as THAT WAS THE MAIN REASON PEOPLE HATED TAKE 1 IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Emperor Newt]

but is that going to make this game more money just by adding ANTs and continental lattice? I personally hate that you can still buy these with SC but thats the only way they can make money. We learned recently that they dont make any money on SC till it's spent and im sure this would get people using SC a lot more often then now since everyone just saves it up till a helmet they like comes along.

Also no to dark light unless you want to make infiltrator a pointless class.
It makes the game more money by making it better, having more people play it and more people play it for longer. Player retention in this game is like really, really bad. I rarely see people in the < BR20 area anymore. That's the real money they are loosing.
If it would just be to make people spend more SC they could very well just make highvelocity/softpoint ammo cost certs/SC. Same thing, different coating. Or make camo be one use only. Oh...

[BlaxicanX]

The problem with that argument is that it assumes that they'll make more money by retaining players with a high quality game than they will by enticing people to buy stuff. Is that true?

Well, statistically, only 5-7% of people who play F2P games ever actually buy something. The remaining 95-93% don't spend a dime throughout the entirety of their career with the game. According to Steam, there's about 10,000 active players as of this month. 7% of that is 700. So... out of 10,000 players, ~700 of them will ever buy stuff. The number dwindles even more, because you have to consider how much people spend. There are people who own every NS gun, damn near every camo, every helmet for their empire etc. Then there are guys like me who, for the first half of 2013, spent 5 bucks every month or so to buy a little something here and there.

So really, betting on sheer numbers of players to prop up your game isn't going to work on a F2P model (though it definitely would on a subscription-based model), it's too unreliable, too erratic. Your observation about BR's is the opposite of mine; on Connery I very rarely see low-level people, and you have to take into consideration that people spend less money on the game as they get higher in level, because they have everything they want already.

So what's going to make more money, 5-7% of a player population buying stuff, or 30% of the player pop buying stuff because SOE keeps releasing some new hawtness implants/weapons/items that everyone feels like they've just gotta have to stay competitive?

In the short-term it's the latter. And as long as a company has shareholders or what-have-you to answer too, short-term profits are always God.

[AThreatToYou]

The problem with that argument is that it assumes that they'll make more money by retaining players with a high quality game than they will by enticing people to buy stuff. Is that true?

Well, statistically, only 5-7% of people who play F2P games ever actually buy something. The remaining 95-93% don't spend a dime throughout the entirety of their career with the game. According to Steam, there's about 10,000 active players as of this month. 7% of that is 700. So... out of 10,000 players, ~700 of them will ever buy stuff. The number dwindles even more, because you have to consider how much people spend. There are people who own every NS gun, damn near every camo, every helmet for their empire etc. Then there are guys like me who, for the first half of 2013, spent 5 bucks every month or so to buy a little something here and there.

So really, betting on sheer numbers of players to prop up your game isn't going to work on a F2P model (though it definitely would on a subscription-based model), it's too unreliable, too erratic. Your observation about BR's is the opposite of mine; on Connery I very rarely see low-level people, and you have to take into consideration that people spend less money on the game as they get higher in level, because they have everything they want already.

So what's going to make more money, 5-7% of a player population buying stuff, or 30% of the player pop buying stuff because SOE keeps releasing some new hawtness implants/weapons/items that everyone feels like they've just gotta have to stay competitive?

In the short-term it's the latter. And as long as a company has shareholders or what-have-you to answer too, short-term profits are always God.

I am sorry, but I have to interject here on your seemingly massive error.

F2P games are wholly based on the thought that "players are content". The more players you have, the more likely anyone is to pay, at any amount. At that rate, consider two things: Players have more incentive to play a game because a player is more likely to know someone else who is playing it. They also have more incentive to play it simply because the game is active. Further, their incentive to pay is their value behind the game. The more fun they have playing the game, and the better their view of all things directly associated with it (including the player community, game content, game developers, and publisher), the more likely they are to pay. F2P games thrive on addicting players; anything that could possibly throw away players is going to be bad for the game itself (on a popularity scale) and thusly revenue.

SOE had better know that these implant concepts are not good with their player community. Responding by simply cutting off this content would at least prevent further damage. And if SOE is run by humans, they should have loss-prevention psychology, and prevent this from happening.

But then again,

In the short-term it's the latter. And as long as a company has shareholders or what-have-you to answer too, short-term profits are always God.

You can't argue with that.

[Crator]

Consumable, have to micro-manage, implants. No thanks. Please don't implement implants at all. This is bad...

[Chewy]

Im also in the camp where having something that removes an effect of something else is a bad idea. Conc grenades are a pain, but they are vital to do damage in some places. Against a good MAX team dug in, you almost have to have flash or conc in order to get in a door without tossing bodies in a meat grinder.

My opinion is to give them ALL a negative as big as their positive effect. Immune to concs, can't hear shit at all times (earplugs). Auto spot things, you are always on the radar (sonar ping).

If implants came with a negative other than loosing health regen then I wouldn't mind them. Loosing health regen isn't enough. I don't even notice health regen till after a fight and it's so damn so to start with that you might as well not have it anyway. You can't use regen at all for every class but cloakers or maybe LA from only them being able to run and hide easy for a long time.

[Rahabib]

I hate implants that are temporary. I hate grind. Most solutions given involve at least one of these. I think we can do better to alleviate both (link) (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=953891&postcount=17).

What have we learned?

SOE needs money.
Players want something permanent to show for their hard work.
Players hate grind (well the players with a life do).
Players hate an uneven playing ground.

[bites]

These implants really need to be permanent. If soe needs more steady money then they should make membership more attractive.
So free/longer decay time for subscribers? Eg dramatically longer...

I don't disagree that the consumable part sucks .. which it does .. but it would suck less as a subscriber.... but still suck :/

[Maidere]

yay.
More vertical progression.

[BlaxicanX]

I am sorry, but I have to interject here on your seemingly massive error.

F2P games are wholly based on the thought that "players are content". The more players you have, the more likely anyone is to pay, at any amount. At that rate, consider two things: Players have more incentive to play a game because a player is more likely to know someone else who is playing it. They also have more incentive to play it simply because the game is active. Further, their incentive to pay is their value behind the game. The more fun they have playing the game, and the better their view of all things directly associated with it (including the player community, game content, game developers, and publisher), the more likely they are to pay. F2P games thrive on addicting players; anything that could possibly throw away players is going to be bad for the game itself (on a popularity scale) and thusly revenue.

... how does this contradict anything I've said? Yes, everyone knows that a larger player pop equates to more money. The problem (which you don't seem to understand), is that "more players= more money" is only true OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

Do you think that if Hossin, Amerish lattice, continental lattice, and the resource revamp came out TOMORROW, that PS2's player base would be flooded with thousands of returning old players and new players, enough to provide a significant gain in profit for SOE? It would not. Yes, we might get thousands of more players, but that would occur over the course of MONTHS if not over a YEAR. And that's assuming that these features came out tomorrow, which they do not; more realistically, we'll some of those features come out this year, but not all of them. On the contrary, implants or some equivalent would get them a shit ton of money NOW, which is important.

SOE had better know that these implant concepts are not good with their player community. Responding by simply cutting off this content would at least prevent further damage. And if SOE is run by humans, they should have loss-prevention psychology, and prevent this from happening.


The player community is greedy, and wants the best of both worlds. The player community needs to take its head out of its collective ass and realize that micro-transactions are the only way to keep a F2P system afloat, and that new content for people to buy with real money has to constantly be created. If you want a game where every item is balanced and equal and you're not short-changing yourself by not getting it, petition SOE to make the game subscription-based rather than F2P. As long as the game is F2P, there WILL be thing that cost actually money, and they WILL be balanced to be very powerful, so as to entice people to spend actual money on getting it. That's just the nature of F2P.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not defending P2W, I don't think its a good thing at all for a game. But I just recognize that it's inevitable. So rather than simply screaming "NO!" every time they introduce it, we should instead try to get them to make it as balanced and not quite as pay2win'ish as possible. Because what's going to happen, is that SOE is willing to play ball with us now, and are willing to not implement features that aren't popular, but that's not going to last forever.

[exile]

Ffs, is it possible to even make an attempt at reasonable discussion?

The need for a long-term cash sink for the game is self-evident. Sony did not create this game out of the goodness of their hearts, for the benefit of mankind! ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THEY NEED TO MAKE MONEY. The ideal way to do this is give players the option to spend cash on stuff that is cool and desirable, without being a "must-have" advantage.

Did the people crying "pay2win!" even read the post? None of the implants listed will give you a direct advantage over someone else in a firefight. They are all utility abilities that enhance or counter very specific situations. And they do have a disadvantage to use, as clearly stated in the post, by overriding the default ability of the implant slot.

Of course for balance the devil is in the details, but my impression of most of these is that, rather than skewing balance in favour of players paying for implants, it will actually make good players better, without implants, because in general you will need to be smarter about how you play the game.

edit: Ok, reading back over the list maybe the flinch reducing implant is a direct advantage in a firefight. I don't really notice flinch since it got reduced so I don't see that as a huge advantage but maybe with certain weapons it would be.

[BlaxicanX]

I agree with that. I don't see them as distinct advantages any more than one could consider having an SMG in a CQC as having a distinct advantage. At the end of the day, they're just utilities, as you said. It's not like they're guns that do X more damage than every other gun in the game, or armor that's better than every other armor in the game. SoE has done a pretty good job at not turning the paid-access content into an arm's race.

[Pheonix]

Guys, implants are a great idea. From what I understand, devs plan to have one implant that is always on. Let's assume everyone has one and they're cheap. The loot-drop implants will fit into a second slot and will spice up gameplay.

Some players will accumulate more implants than others. But..A br100 tryhard won't breach a point guarded by two well placed neckbeards no matter how many implants he has. Whereas if YOU are getting pink socked by recursion sensor darts, pop sensor shield and you can go ham.


Sent from my iPhone using my ass

[AThreatToYou]

... how does this contradict anything I've said? Yes, everyone knows that a larger player pop equates to more money. The problem (which you don't seem to understand), is that "more players= more money" is only true OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

Do you think that if Hossin, Amerish lattice, continental lattice, and the resource revamp came out TOMORROW, that PS2's player base would be flooded with thousands of returning old players and new players, enough to provide a significant gain in profit for SOE? It would not. Yes, we might get thousands of more players, but that would occur over the course of MONTHS if not over a YEAR. And that's assuming that these features came out tomorrow, which they do not; more realistically, we'll some of those features come out this year, but not all of them. On the contrary, implants or some equivalent would get them a shit ton of money NOW, which is important.



The player community is greedy, and wants the best of both worlds. The player community needs to take its head out of its collective ass and realize that micro-transactions are the only way to keep a F2P system afloat, and that new content for people to buy with real money has to constantly be created. If you want a game where every item is balanced and equal and you're not short-changing yourself by not getting it, petition SOE to make the game subscription-based rather than F2P. As long as the game is F2P, there WILL be thing that cost actually money, and they WILL be balanced to be very powerful, so as to entice people to spend actual money on getting it. That's just the nature of F2P.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not defending P2W, I don't think its a good thing at all for a game. But I just recognize that it's inevitable. So rather than simply screaming "NO!" every time they introduce it, we should instead try to get them to make it as balanced and not quite as pay2win'ish as possible. Because what's going to happen, is that SOE is willing to play ball with us now, and are willing to not implement features that aren't popular, but that's not going to last forever.

I, personally, was not arguing or disagreeing with the immediate gains from this stuff. I was arguing over the same long-term profit that you pointed out here:

is that "more players= more money" is only true OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

Over a long period of time, these implants, if people really don't like them, will reduce the net revenue of planetside 2. Personally I don't find you disagreeing with that.

I tried to indicate that I was not disagreeing with you on principle in my last post. I'm talking about how putting this in as-is might have an adverse long-term effect if it is not changed to appeal to the long-term. I suspect everyone who's paid into PS2 so far has done so on the precedent that their purchases are an "investment" in that they never lose them or the benefits of them.

The mere thought of a temporary item that they can purchase for real money is annoying. It doesn't matter if the item lasts five hours or six months, you would get much more immediate sales if it was temporary. That is myself arguing over the implementation of the item itself. But if SOE is unwilling to make them permanent, then I don't think they should be put into the game at all.

My thought is: Through simply playing the game, they are not permanent. They would be temporary power-ups for non-paying players. If you pay, they are there forever.

... how does this contradict anything I've said?

Excuse me for being personal, but why are you looking for contradictions? I didn't want to start "an argument". I was pointing something out that you did not appear to make of note. I am more or less hoping that SOE sees the long-term investment before they see the short-term investment (and revenue) of this new content. My point was that the loss of players over something inflammatory like this will most definitely hurt the game in the long-run.

In any case, I'm not going on about P2W, player greed, or SOE's greed. If anything I am trying to help SOE: If this is how implants are going to be (temporary purchasable items), then I don't think we should have them at all. It does not make a difference the length of use; most people could barely get 20 hours in-game use out of them.

[Ghoest9]

If you sub the game there should NEVER be a reason pay more money for competitive advanatge.

[War Barney]

I agree with that. I don't see them as distinct advantages any more than one could consider having an SMG in a CQC as having a distinct advantage. At the end of the day, they're just utilities, as you said. It's not like they're guns that do X more damage than every other gun in the game, or armor that's better than every other armor in the game. SoE has done a pretty good job at not turning the paid-access content into an arm's race.

There are definite issues with these though, T

The implant which makes you immune to concussion grenades for example makes them pointless as theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing, at least a frag the worst that'll happen is somebody reduces the damage a bit instead of negating it completely.

The implant that lets you see health and shields, unless thats only at very short range that will make snipers 500% more effective.

Thermal reduction... considering how many people use the NV scope thats a HUGE advantage, especially at night fighting VS its the only way you can actually see them.

And thats just the ones which give a obvious advantage in many situations, the stealth implant is going to make infiltrators even more of a pain in the ass, the quick use will make it even harder to defend against C4, though if I'm honest I'm happy they are doing SOMETHING about that as its always been stupid how you throw C4 like your carefully passing a egg to a child... if I'm standing next to a tank that could see and kill me any second I'd like to see a bit more urgency in how that C4 is thrown...

[Emperor Newt]

ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THEY NEED TO MAKE MONEY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVTMol1s7w4&t=0m47s

[Redshift]

What i really don't want is to have to micromanage implants, if i have 1 or 2 slots that i can fill like for equipment on the character tab and then forget about them 95% of the time that would be A ok

[Baneblade]

The main problem with all of SOE's temporary items is that they count down in real time. So the people that get turned off the most by them are the people also most likely to buy them in the first place. Make them only expire via ingame time and viola, you have a leg to stand on.

[War Barney]

The main problem with all of SOE's temporary items is that they count down in real time. So the people that get turned off the most by them are the people also most likely to buy them in the first place. Make them only expire via ingame time and viola, you have a leg to stand on.

Aye I hate how they do this, I've got a 6 month xp boost and its annoying knowing that if I go on holiday its going to tick away, over the course of owning that boost I'm probably going to lose about 3/4 or more of it in time I just wasn't playing and on top of that it encourages me to not try other factions till its finished as I feel like I'm wasting it. I'd be happier if the boost lasted less time but only worked while logged in.

[exile]

There are definite issues with these though, T

The implant which makes you immune to concussion grenades for example makes them pointless as theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing, at least a frag the worst that'll happen is somebody reduces the damage a bit instead of negating it completely.

The implant that lets you see health and shields, unless thats only at very short range that will make snipers 500% more effective.

Thermal reduction... considering how many people use the NV scope thats a HUGE advantage, especially at night fighting VS its the only way you can actually see them...
Most of the examples you give here are currently dominant strategies and introducing situational counters to these is actually good for game balance.

Currently a conc grenade is incredibly effective, any noob can throw one into a chokepoint and then pretty much waltz in and mop up. Adding the possibility that there may be conc immune players in there means that it is no longer a no-brain tactic. Saying "theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing" is ridiculous, you are basically saying "I don't want to have to actually use skill to beat someone".

You know why everyone uses thermal and NV? Because they are so effective they are basically "must-have" atm. They are currently "a huge advantage", giving them a counter actually improves balance and increases variety and effectiveness of tactical options across the board.

This is what I mean when I say that these options will make good players better, without implants. Added tactical complexity benefits smart players and teams.

[typhaon]

There are definite issues with these though, T

The implant which makes you immune to concussion grenades for example makes them pointless as theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing, at least a frag the worst that'll happen is somebody reduces the damage a bit instead of negating it completely.

The implant that lets you see health and shields, unless thats only at very short range that will make snipers 500% more effective.

Thermal reduction... considering how many people use the NV scope thats a HUGE advantage, especially at night fighting VS its the only way you can actually see them.

And thats just the ones which give a obvious advantage in many situations, the stealth implant is going to make infiltrators even more of a pain in the ass, the quick use will make it even harder to defend against C4, though if I'm honest I'm happy they are doing SOMETHING about that as its always been stupid how you throw C4 like your carefully passing a egg to a child... if I'm standing next to a tank that could see and kill me any second I'd like to see a bit more urgency in how that C4 is thrown...

That was my first thought.

Great. I already have enough trouble seeing VS - with that implant they might as well be invisible to me.

[exile]

That was my first thought.

Great. I already have enough trouble seeing VS - with that implant they might as well be invisible to me.
These are the discussions we should be having, concerns about specific balance issues, not flailing about with "omgz pay2win!" frothing at the mouth.

I also have a lot of trouble with visibility at night, thanks to bad glare in my computer room. I'm interested to see how they actually implement this. I assume that players with this implant won't be 100% invisible to NV and thermal, they will just be coloured in flat grey or blue like the terrain is? If that is the case it might actually still be better for night visibility than no scope at all.

[War Barney]

Most of the examples you give here are currently dominant strategies and introducing situational counters to these is actually good for game balance.

Currently a conc grenade is incredibly effective, any noob can throw one into a chokepoint and then pretty much waltz in and mop up. Adding the possibility that there may be conc immune players in there means that it is no longer a no-brain tactic. Saying "theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing" is ridiculous, you are basically saying "I don't want to have to actually use skill to beat someone".

You know why everyone uses thermal and NV? Because they are so effective they are basically "must-have" atm. They are currently "a huge advantage", giving them a counter actually improves balance and increases variety and effectiveness of tactical options across the board.

This is what I mean when I say that these options will make good players better, without implants. Added tactical complexity benefits smart players and teams.

The point you were making is they wont be giving people an advantage and I just listed ways that they will, conc nades are good aye, but so are rezz nades, wheres the implant that stops all rezz nades in a certain area working? and the NV one is a HUGE advantage especially for a certain almost black faction at night.

Its bad enough that all the heavies gear is being nerfed to uselessness 1 by 1 without implants making it worse.

[exile]

The point you were making is they wont be giving people an advantage and I just listed ways that they will, conc nades are good aye, but so are rezz nades, wheres the implant that stops all rezz nades in a certain area working? and the NV one is a HUGE advantage especially for a certain almost black faction at night.
Ffs, try and use your brain. Of course they will give an advantage in the specific situation they were designed for.

The point is whether or not they give an overall advantage and skew the game's balance in favour of people who are paying for implants. As I said before, I encourage discussion about specific implants and potential issues with them. And I can see that there could be some issues with the night vision counter, depending on how they implement it.

Its bad enough that all the heavies gear is being nerfed to uselessness 1 by 1 without implants making it worse.
What are you even talking about here?! HAs are totally dominant in their role.

[War Barney]

They definitely skew the balance, how is it not a rather huge advantage to be invisible to the most commonly used scope, how is it not game changing to be immune to a conc grenade as even if other people don't have that implant you alone could kill a lot of the people trying to get in if they don't expect it, (and they wont know who is and isn't affected).

As for heavy... well C4 is almost useless on sundies, range of lock on AA rocket has been reduced, hip-fire of LMGs has been made worse (well this doesn't affect VS but NC it means no choice but to use ADS at every range)

[exile]

They definitely skew the balance, how is it not a rather huge advantage to be invisible to the most commonly used scope, how is it not game changing to be immune to a conc grenade as even if other people don't have that implant you alone could kill a lot of the people trying to get in if they don't expect it, (and they wont know who is and isn't affected).

As for heavy... well C4 is almost useless on sundies, range of lock on AA rocket has been reduced, hip-fire of LMGs has been made worse (well this doesn't affect VS but NC it means no choice but to use ADS at every range)
:rolleyes: You need an implant in real life, to help you think above the level of a six year old.

[wolfkrone]

I wish they would delay these til 2017 and develop the actual game instead

[War Barney]

:rolleyes: You need an implant in real life, to help you think above the level of a six year old.

Its always funny when kids lose a argument, they just decide to go for insults =p.

[exile]

Its always funny when kids lose a argument, they just decide to go for insults =p.
Sigh. What argument? You haven't actually engaged in any discussion, you just keep repeating the same flawed statements. Saying the same thing over and over does not make an argument, it is more like a tantrum.

And your comments about the HA makes it obvious to everyone that you are totally clueless about game balance. I shouldn't even be wasting everyone's time replying to you, but it's a slow day at work :\

[ChipMHazard]

Guys, take it to the PMs.

[Ohaunlaim]

I'm not totally feeling the implants here. The whole system of combining them seems like a gimmick found in many a less desirable game.

I would suggest, instead, that there be three implant slots. This way, implants would need to be much less affective individually but you could stack three together to have a clear boost to whatever.

*ie the emp immunity would instead only lower the emp affects duration by a second or two. If you had three of them, you would only be affected by emp nades for a fraction of the time as other people were, but you would still be affected.

This would also allow a player to have multiple implants to aid in a variety of situations, but at reduced effectiveness.

And yes, these need to be drained in game-time, not real-time.

[Rahabib]

make em permanent but tie their use to resources or stamina or something else. By making them temporary it either makes them a money sink or increases the grind of the game because spending certs on implants just makes it so thats certs you can't spend on other things, making leveling up stuff much more difficult.

[ChipMHazard]

I do agree with Wrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVHtc4mLCw) about having the cert allow for more actual customization of the classes, since we don't have the PS1 cert system. I most certainly wouldn't mind seeing some more RPG elements implemented so it doesn't just keep on feeling like a very big, more or less generic, FPS.
Still, there's no important thing that SOE is missing here that PS1 had. Stamina drain. Obviously there's no stamina in PS2, but the point being that one way to help balance out powerful a implant is to give it a drawback.