March Liberator Update Plan "In Progress"

[Obstruction]

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/march-liberator-refresh.167137/

Status: In Progress

Thanks for all the feedback. Here's the plan for the Liberator Update.


Add crew experience. All passengers in vehicle get exp when someone gets a kill and possibly kill assist
Add ammo display on the seat diagram to know how much ammo each gunner has
Looking into adding a vehicle only voice channel
Certification Adjustments

Increase power of stealth
Increase power of afterburner
Add tank shells to composite armor resist
Increase Racer performance speed bonus
Nose Guns
Improvement pass on Vektor
New: High velocity Vektor. More effective against air and fast moving targets.
Belly Guns
Dead zone improvements: Work to decrease the size of the dead zone
Zepher: Small increase to direct hit damage
Dalton: Reduction in splash damage
New Empire Specific Belly Guns
VS: Large magazine weapon shooting explosive rounds or orbs. RPM increases after each shot until forced to reload or trigger is let go.
NC: TV Guided missile
TR: Zepher variant that has a larger magazine and higher RPM, but does less damage each shot. Each shot increases cone of fire, allowing it to spray a large area with shells from range.
Tail Guns
Improvement pass on Walker and Drake
Adjustments to try and give tail gun more firing angles
New: AA tail gun. Heat seeking missile launcher, similar to Coyote missiles in functionality.
Pass on ammo capacities
Ammo capacities for most weapons (even beyond the scope of Liberator) are being adjusted to even them out based on killing potential


rage/rejoice. plenty to discuss.

[typhaon]

First thoughts.

The ES-NC gun sounds terrible compared to other two. It better be a TV-guided missile with a tactical nuke on the end. Really... I can only imagine the useless rate of fire it would cursed with.

[Selerox]

If the ES-NC gun has the same mind-bendingly annoying noise at the Phoenix and Raven, I'm going to FedEx Higby a box of roadkill.

The ES-VS weapon basically sounds like a PPA. The TR one sounds like it will be a tad OP out of the box, at least in some situations (I can see an ESRL issue all over again).

Aside from that it all looks pretty good. Although I think a lot of people would have liked to see the option for gravity bombs. It would help give a little more variety to the Liberator and would reward riskier flying for a decent reward.

[AThreatToYou]

I don't see the problem with the ES-NC weapon. If it does a significant amount of damage (like Dalton-levels of damage), it should prove amazing and has carry-over skill with the Phoenix, making it easier for me to use.

[HereticusXZ]

As far as nose guns on the Liberator go, I want to see Rocket-Pods as a option.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WJ11578wM8


The same old faction-specific stuff is getting really lame.... VS get a charged shot, NC get some shot gun or TV guided projectile, and the TR just get high capacity rapid fire or lock-down.... It shows in the MBT, The MAX, Heavy Faction specific weapons, It's in ESF weapons, and now even in the new Faction Specific Sniper weapons.... It's the same exact weapon in essence but spread across multiple classes and vehicles.

I want to see variety of faction specific weapons to help encourage the faction specific theme.

In Empire Specific design for belly guns I'd like to see more variety...

VS thus far seem to have the same guns everyone else is using, except the bullets are colored purple and are lasers only in name. How about a solid-beam that you can just sweep across the enemy line, Something like what the Clone Gunship bubble-turrets have have in Star Wars?

http://www3.telus.net/snowtroopers/gunship/turret.jpg



NC are all about giant explosions and corporate funding... How about they get some triggered explosive.... 4-6 capacity magazine, you fire off the 6 rounds, they stick to whatever they hit but they don't detonate until you either empty the magazine or hit the Reload button? The idea comes from one of the earlier battle scenes in the new movie Elysium when the gunship attacks the heroes raiding party.


As far as TR goes there suppose to be the mega-power government, why not give them cluster bombs, there weapon themes all about collateral damage, right?



The tail gun needs alot of love IMO.

Usually in my experience no ones interested in the tail gun, not strictly speaking because it's weak-sauce but because the Pilot has no ability to see behind him so he can't really give the tail gunner any good shots (mostly speaking concerning the Bulldog), Liberator Pilots should have a option to see behind them or a rear view mirror option.

As far as weapons go, This Coyote inspiration seems like a good idea but my preference is maybe a Ranger turret mounted as the tail gun or some kind of Flak option.

[SGOniell]

I don't know if I'm fond of this tv-guided missile, as mentioned, the low rate of fire will likely be a problem. Severely reduced killing potential. It honestly had better do massive damage if its slower than the dalton. That should be your baseline.

[Falcon_br]

People are complaining about the ES NC gun, but it looks the best one!
In my server, Waterson, we already got several TIW (NC) liberators that are using the dalton from over 500m+ to kill deployed prowlers.
Even with 3 skyguards we can't do anything, they are too high and on the move, if we send Mosquitos we can force him to run back to the warp gate, since they only do that on bases near the warp gate and with some reaver support.
Now that they got a cam guided dalton, they will even hit prowlers on the move!
Low dps? Are you guys serius? The Phoenix got a low DPS and nobody complains. Why? Because it is a guided Decimator! While they nerf the Decimator so now you can't hit anything after 20m with it, the Phoenix do the same up 300m, with a lower dps, \0/

[Obstruction]

i have responded extensively throughout the linked thread, in particular to the newly released plans. i continue to participate in the discussion actively there as well as here, so i will just reiterate my opinions.

many of the above changes are things we've really needed and been asking for since launch. crew experience sharing, ammo displays for the pilot, and dead zone improvements are all really great changes that will improve quality of play across the board.

upgrades to utility cert lines, such as stealth and afterburner sound promising, updates to the racer frame, tail weapons, and even the mostly useless nod to composite armor are steps in the right direction.

the problems i have with the proposed plan going forward:


ES specific weapons have distinct potential to be ZOE all over again. if even one is even perceived to be "best" it will create a population shift in the air-meta that will snowball until it becomes an actual imbalance in KPU and a noticeable detraction to other areas of play. e.g. zergs of single faction air taking alerts, dominating certain lattice lanes, etc.



tail gun improvements may be needed, but the most important improvement is apparently not on the table: it's still mounted on the totally useless tail. the problem with the tail is not that the weapons are bad. when placed on the roof of the plane between the wings (dorsal mount) the walker can be highly effective in combat, as proven time and again by skilled galaxy teams. the bulldog is also versatile and effective in other settings.

the dorsal mount needs to be the third position on the Liberator; and it needs to stop being called the tail. first move the current weapons there, then collect data and tune them, and finally introduce new concepts. coyote missiles sound awesome but they will be just as useless on the tail as everything else is, because pilots cannot provide any sort of meaningful maneuver for a weapon if you put it on the tail where it will constantly be turned away from targets. the tail just does not create a satisfying experience for the person in that position.

equally useless is the upgrade to composite armor. it is of limited usefulness and like the pass on the Vektor... well... you're gonna need to put a lot of lipstick on that pig.



finally a word on the Dalton nerf. it's just not necessary. many people are going to champion this as justice for infantry and i understand the instinctual reaction there. but that is not what this is. this actually raises the skill floor for entry by new players to use of an already punishingly difficult weapon, and simultaneously decreases its value in its intended role as an AV focused weapon. the kind of infantry that die to a Dalton (bads lol) are still going to die with reduced splash damage.

the facts as they stand are thus: it already takes 3 splash hits to kill a Heavy Assault, and more if they have Resist Shield. it takes 6+ hits to down a standard non-flak-armored MAX unit. these are small, moving targets that are already provided ample cover, free, fast respawns, ability to fire out of spawn shields, and almost always have a population advantage in a given engagement. when they group up in clusters of 3 or more the TTK the attacking Lib is much less than for the Lib to kill even one of them should it stop or slow at all during its run. (i remember setting flak traps for Scourge and TwF with my first outfit. and that was back during the crazy OP days of high-HP Zephyr Libs just after launch.)

the underlying mechanics of Liberator play rely on weapons being versatile enough to respond to all threats. this is precisely because a Liberator faces every single source of damage on the battlefield at once, with the exception of small arms fire. (oh. yeah they introduced that explosive bolt that kills a Lib in 12 shots. so i guess if you get low enough that's a threat now too.)

the idea that a Liberator weapon can be useful against one type of target and useless against other threats - and still be viable - can only be held by someone who is oblivious to Liberator gameplay. if a developer holds this idea to be true, then they need to brought under administrative review and probably moved to answering phones or something. this is exactly the reason why no one of any consequence uses the Zephyr. it performs well at farming certain infantry hotspots, but leaves the Lib vulnerable to the most critical threats; aircraft and hardened ground targets. even with its good splash damage against infantry, the advantages held by the most credible infantry threats (listed above in detail) nearly negate its "intended function."

this is why only the Shredder and Dalton are viable loadouts, and why ES weapons will also fail if they are not versatile enough. if even one faction proves to have a versatile weapon where the others do not, that will create an imbalance in the air that we cannot afford. it will likely break this game, which is already on thin ice in many areas of design and player retention.

consideration for faction flavor (cosmetic design, sound design,) playstyle, effect at range, reward for high skill play (and accessibility for lower skill and newer players!!) should definitely be top considerations for design. arbitrary assignments to "intended roles" by developers who consistently misinterpret the metagames they are monkeying with should not. for the love of all that is holy, please design generalized, viable weapons first - then tune for emergent playstyles and hone each weapon slightly to improve it for what it does best, and reward the type of play that suits it best. anything else is poor design and only serves to show future development teams what to avoid.


i know this was extremely long, but i attempted to highlight and format it in such a way that it can be skimmed for the key points and then each topic read in-depth at leisure. if you guys didn't know already, i am a dedicated Lib pilot on Connery, among other servers. i fly as Obstruction (NC), KickDoor (VS), and Withstand (TR). it has long been my pleasure to fly with and against many of you. thanks for reading.

[JackD]

I don't see the problem with the ES-NC weapon. If it does a significant amount of damage (like Dalton-levels of damage), it should prove amazing and has carry-over skill with the Phoenix, making it easier for me to use.

When it works as good against air is i assume i dont see it to be widely used by good pilots.

Overall iam alright with the Lib update since we finally get the XP fix and they dont attend to break anything. Also the Vektor fix and the new AA nosegun might come in handy.

Other then that not much to be excited about. The new weapons and the predicted uselessness against air, tail gun improvements and Racer and Stealth buuff shows that SOE still doesnt understand the Liberator gameplay.

[Chewy]

I to have an uneasy feeling for the NC ES belly gun.

A TV missile, that means it's going to have the same 300m limit that the Phoenix has but worse. The reason for the range cap on a Phoenix is that any longer and the game needs to put you in a loading screen when you snap back to your body. If that happens in a Lib, it will make the weapon near pointless.

That 300m isn't just a set range. It is the range from user. That means if you fire the Phoenix just as you get on a jump pad the rocket will keep going till it hits the 300 range or hits the max life span. If you aim the direction you are jumping, you get the full life span of the rocket. If you fire in the opposite direction, you have a MUCH shorter range as your body is moving away from the rocket as well at it flying off.

A TV missile on a lib would have the same effect as firing a Phoenix on a jump pad. Either cutting its max range short or extending it to past what it should be. Either way, a 300m range weapon on an air vehicle is going to be not very useful. Not when a lib tends to stay at least that far away to keep from being torn apart from flak and lock-ons.


On a side note. All of the ES belly guns read to me as AI weapons. VS gets a orb firing chain gun with a spin up. TR gets a carpet bomb like deal. NC gets a single shot TV missile.

That doesn't read like something fair without making the NC version a nuke to counter the guidance time needed to and a reload after before getting to fire a 2nd shot. If that thing doesn't one shot everything within 5m of the point of impact, it is not going to be worth using over the Zepher.
2 spam centered weapons, 1 kinda skill based. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

[Dougnifico]

Personally I like the ideas they have for ES guns. Vanu would be better with a solid beam that streaks the landscape.

I would still love to see a model rehash for each faction. The lib looks so NC. A TR version should look like a Hind and the Vanu should have something similar to the Phantom from Halo. You don't need performance differences, just different models and names. (Should be applied to everything NS.)

[Boildown]

The last thing this game needs are the return of overpowered Libs. And after these changes, I don't see how they can be anything but. They need to make Libs weaker to ESFs, not stronger, if they want to increase their survivability against ground to air or increase their damage. Otherwise it'll be back to the days of the Jaeger server Lib pilots and gunners that farmed their way to BR100 four months before everyone else.

[SnipeGrzywa]

Everything in the long post above

From what you are saying you want a Lib to be able to kill everything on the battlefied, all while surviving everything.

That is not how a game like PS2 works. You either equip yourself for AI, AV, or AA. Some vehicles allow you to do 2 (Tanks can do AV main and AI secondary, or the Lib can do AV main and AI tail) but when you split your fire power you are less effective against both.

As it stands now, 1 vs 1, the Lib can take out ESF. The pilot just needs to position the Lib right to allow tail gunner to engage the ESF. The Lib is a tactical bomber, not a dog fighter. The pilot should never be shooting at an ESF unless if the ESF wants to play chicken.

If there are more enemy ESF in the area, then either you have wingmen or friendly ESF escort, or you avoid the area. If you do not own the sky then there is no way to get a bomber on station. Simple as that. Or you could even set up an AA nest somewhere, buzz the enemy air, and drag them back to nest and kill them all. This game is about teamwork, not designing a single aircraft that can kill everything in the air.

As far as killing everything, what? So you can not kill everything in a base on 1 pass, this means the weapons suck and are unbalanced? If you come across a platoon of infantry with AA weapons, you don't sit there and try to take them out with your Dalton, you bug out. That is how you respond to a threat. Not by asking to make it so your main weapon kills everything. If I am in my max doing AV, I don't rush into a room where I know enemy infantry are.

If anything the only thing I got out of your post was the fact they need to add the ability to change load out on vehicles. I support this, even if they add like a 50 resource fee to do so. But at NO time should 1 vehicle be able to solo kill/survive everything.