The real problem with the NC MAX

[War Barney]

I was thinking on this today and think I've worked out what the true issue with the NC MAX is!. The problem basically... is teamwork and a complete lack of it. The TR and VS MAX work great by themselves, you don't need to work as a team (though it helps) to get a load of kills and be credit to team as they have range and accuracy. A NC MAX however has almost no range and an ability thats focused on helping out the team so teamwork is vital to do anything.

Basically my thinking is this, the NC MAX was thought up with 1 strategy in mind, the shield wall. Imagine if a platoon got a load of MAXs together forming a long line, a shield wall, and used that to push across terrain it would be a quite effective way of pushing into heavily defended areas and allow our MAX to get into range to use their guns. HOWEVER what normally happens is our MAXs run around solo and if they do try to push they get left alone as nobody else wants to get close to the enemy meaning you die quickly.

There is another problem though of course.. while in a perfect world of team play this would be a quite effective strategy its still only viable in a small number of cases, open terrain ofc its worthless as you will all be shelled to death LONG before you reach anything, and even enclosed bases its risky as it relies on people grouping together making you the ideal target for any of the MANY classes with C4.

So while we end up back in the same old place of the NC MAX being inferior we at least have an idea of how to make them slightly more useful and it becomes more a case of improving on the shield, perhaps instead of a *shield* it could become more of a bubble which grows as more MAXs use it in close proximity to each other. This would make it useful in more situations and encourage people to push forward with the MAXs while they are using it.


OR just give our MAX a HMG so we don't need to push to 0m to do damage.

[Chewy]

Iv been asking for a HMG type weapon for the NC MAX since Beta. The perfect thing would be to just make 2 weapons.

NS MAX AI weapons. A HMG and a Shotgun.

Or just use the flamethrower instead of a shotgun as that thing is finished all but for a DOT or area denial effect. Hell, you don't even need to make any new weapon models. Rehash the Flash weapon models for Kobalt and Renegade then nerf the stats to fit the MAXes balance needs. Just make them a middle ground weapon like all other NS weapons.


NC gets range, TR/VS gets a shotgun. Everyone has a niche they can choose instead of one being forced on them. I don't see how that isn't a win win win.

[War Barney]

Well I think the problem is its a win for us but not a win for the TR and VS as while they get an option for 0m fighting WE gain a gun for every range except 0m so we gain a lot more from it.

Of course they can't say that so they should completely support the idea as the only way to NOT support it is to say they know the shotgun MAX is useless and they want us to stay useless

[Redshift]

I agree with Chewy, TR and VS hate the NC MAX because it's a beast indoors, NC hate their MAX because TR and VS ones work outdoors (lets ignore the fact that indoors is where MAXs should be :P)

NS machine gun and shotgun would solve everything

[Snoopy]

Well I think the problem is its a win for us but not a win for the TR and VS as while they get an option for 0m fighting WE gain a gun for every range except 0m so we gain a lot more from it.

Of course they can't say that so they should completely support the idea as the only way to NOT support it is to say they know the shotgun MAX is useless and they want us to stay useless

Whinge whinge whinge.

I'm fairly sure the VS and TR would jump at the opportunity for their maxes to have a shotgun. In return, the NC should be given a ranged weapon. Most wouldn't have a problem with that.

Then you might also then realise that a ranged weapon isn't the be-all and end-all, and that maxes still work best in relative close quarters combat.

[Illtempered]

slugs

[Falcon_br]

Teams with slugs and shields work the best I ever saw attacking biolabs.
The first row with shields, the second row firing, changing rows when the first row gets low health or the second row without ammo.

[almalino]

Teams with slugs and shields work the best I ever saw attacking biolabs.
The first row with shields, the second row firing, changing rows when the first row gets low health or the second row without ammo.

That requires a lot of teamwork. And third row repairing?

[Falcon_br]

That requires a lot of teamwork. And third row repairing?

I was dead before I saw the third row, and the bio lab into enemy hands.
I do think they had support infantry behind them, but I couldn´t see.

[AThreatToYou]

Just giving the NC max a mid-range focused spray-and-pray weapon (read: not slugs) would help it out a lot. I know MAX AI works best indoors, but they need some range or else they are useful only in a biolab. And even then, useful mainly inside or around the corner of a building inside the biolab. Knife-fight range.

[KesTro]

I feel inclined to chip in here as I have no problem with our NC MAX now, but perhaps I've just grown complacent over the last few months.

The problem I have with the NC MAX isn't range as that is overlooked with slugs, (try them sometime, seriously) the problem I have with them is that 40% of our time in an NC MAX is spent reloading. We have no sustained fire option regardless of range as TR and VS do. That to me is an even bigger problem, range aside.

[War Barney]

Slugs really dont help much, slugs will make the range reasonable for biolabs at times but all other areas its just not AND it decreases the damage so that if anything the VS and TR MAX ends up doing more damage so we lose the whole point of having shotguns.

As I keep saying, you want shotguns for your MAX? have them, have a million of them I don't care I just want at least 1 HMG option for my MAX so I'm not limited to a 5m range even with slugs

[Baneblade]

I would be okay with a 2 handed MAX HMG even.

[typhaon]

Teams with slugs and shields work the best I ever saw attacking biolabs.
The first row with shields, the second row firing, changing rows when the first row gets low health or the second row without ammo.

What works a lot better is just the same amount of MAX units - all with charge... charging.

[Dragonskin]

I'm for NC maxes having ranged options if VS and TR can have shotgun type CQC weapons. Ranged is great and all, but even ranged maxes get eaten outdoors. Most of the game revolves around CQC combat... meaning less than 50m.

The main issue I see with VS and TR maxes is that we don't have that insane burst at close range. NC maxes are hated so much because when you run into them you usually die instantly. There is zero room for reaction time and that takes a lot of the skill away from the player. You can run away from VS or TR maxes and re-engage on your own terms so that in many cases you can actually win even in CQC.

[War Barney]

I'm for NC maxes having ranged options if VS and TR can have shotgun type CQC weapons. Ranged is great and all, but even ranged maxes get eaten outdoors. Most of the game revolves around CQC combat... meaning less than 50m.

The main issue I see with VS and TR maxes is that we don't have that insane burst at close range. NC maxes are hated so much because when you run into them you usually die instantly. There is zero room for reaction time and that takes a lot of the skill away from the player. You can run away from VS or TR maxes and re-engage on your own terms so that in many cases you can actually win even in CQC.

If you run directly into a NC MAX, as in smash right into them THEN they will kill you, otherwise the range will mean they tickle you uselessly. As has been said you can have a shotgun for your MAX, it will be nice for us to have a ranged option AND for VS and TR to realise how worthless a shotgun is on an incredibly slow moving huge target

[Dragonskin]

If you run directly into a NC MAX, as in smash right into them THEN they will kill you, otherwise the range will mean they tickle you uselessly. As has been said you can have a shotgun for your MAX, it will be nice for us to have a ranged option AND for VS and TR to realise how worthless a shotgun is on an incredibly slow moving huge target

Most of the core game is decided in CQC though. That is an undeniable truth. Capture points and shield generators are usually in buildings. Very few are in the open. It's fairly easy to run face first into NC maxes because they hide in buildings.. where a max is most effective. Even TR and VS maxes prefer to stay in and around buildings because they are huge targets.. not like the NC max is inherently bigger or slower than a TR max. TR and VS also don't have a way to mitigate more damage beyond Kinetic or Flak armor. The NC have shields. So even if you do fire a rocket or have a firing squad those shields eat up tons of potential damage that a VS or TR max would have taken.

In the end it's not the NC player's fault for using the maxes. It's terrible max design that focuses NC maxes down a path that tons of people already hate... shotguns. They are the bane of any CQC and just sucked that NC have shotguns out the waazoo.

Also I play all 3 factions which gives me a little more perspective than your average faction loyalist.

[CraazyCanuck]

I feel inclined to chip in here as I hae no problem with out NC MAX now, but perhaps I've just grown complacent over the last few months.

The problem I have with the NC MAX isn't range as that is overlooked with slugs, (try them sometime, seriously) the problem I have with them is that 40% of our time in an NC MAX is spent reloading. We have no sustained fire option regardless of range as TR and VS do. That to me is an even bigger problem, range aside.

This. +1 - The reload time on the NC Max in comparison to the other faction's AI weapons is much slower tier to tier. I'd like them to atleast level the playing field on reload times. 1 sec might no seem like much, but when your that slow moving, it seems like an eternity.

[Chewy]

NC maxes are hated so much because when you run into them you usually die instantly. There is zero room for reaction time and that takes a lot of the skill away from the player.

This can be said for any MAX. If I happen to get close to any MAX i die before I have time to do much if anything. But that's only if the MAX sees me or knows I am there.

I got lucky last night a few times with fighting MAXes by some not bothering to look around or me just having perfect timing and that let me get a kill or do massive damage. One MAX never even noticed me after I put a full rifle mag plus 2 pistol mags in his back while he slowly walked right to our AMS. A real idiot, never charged or did anything to protect himself.

I also got unlucky last night against MAXes. Getting killed before firing a single shot, not being able to even turn to run, couldn't even say a word a few times before death. There was no way I could have fought back against those deaths unless I run around all day with a rocket launcher out at all times. Some do that, I just don't play Heavy and it's my least certed anything.


Another thing I am noticing about the weapon types. HMGs tend to give more tunnel vision than shotguns. Putting a wall of lead down kinda takes the users focus and makes it easier to not be noticed. Mag dumping a shotgun leaves you with plenty of time to look around during the long reloads.

[Baneblade]

I kill more infantry with the Falcons than with all of the shotguns combined.

[Dragonskin]

This can be said for any MAX. If I happen to get close to any MAX i die before I have time to do much if anything.

Right, maxes kill infantry quick regardless. Just that NC maxes have a shotgun so 1 button press and 6 points of damage come out from just 1 cannon all at the same time. 12 points of damage if you have 2 shotguns on. It's the straight up burst that kills and TR/VS have nothing in that ball park.

12 rounds coming at you in a matter of milliseconds vs 16 rounds coming at you over the period of a full second (TR Mercy at 492rpm which is the highest RPM of VS or TR weapons). Not to mention at the slowest rate of fire for NC maxes that is 3 shots a second. 3 * 12 = 36 rounds coming at you in the same time frame as 16 from TR. That is quite a big difference.

Yea, TR and VS can put out a lot of damage, but it's over a greater period of time.

That all makes a huge difference in reaction time of the target. In my experience across all 3 factions I would rather be NC infantry rushing max held defended area than VS or TR. By the time you even process that you saw a NC max those 12 shots are already in the air flying towards you. If they don't all hit you then congrats you literally dodged the bullet, but it's not much skill involved and a lot more luck.

Anyway, I'm not here saying that NC players are terrible for playing with their maxes. I agree that NC should have other medium-long range options, but in exchange TR and VS need similar close range options.

Just giving the NC a HMG and calling it a day isn't enough. You are complaining about balance after all.. so you should agree that things should be equally balanced on all sides.. right?

[War Barney]

The TTK is actually almost identical for all the MAXs up close, the only difference is if you miss with the NC one its a huge thing as it shoots so slowly and reloads even slower. Hell I've died pretty much instantly when running face first into VS and TR MAXs, if anything I imagine they have it easier as they just need to hold down the shoot button while a NC MAX has to constantly click it over and over

[Dragonskin]

The TTK is actually almost identical for all the MAXs up close, the only difference is if you miss with the NC one its a huge thing as it shoots so slowly and reloads even slower. Hell I've died pretty much instantly when running face first into VS and TR MAXs, if anything I imagine they have it easier as they just need to hold down the shoot button while a NC MAX has to constantly click it over and over

TTK is not the same. I am talking max vs infantry where NC have the clear advantage in close range. Not max vs max where things get interesting because of reload times and health pools. In case of max vs max I tend to pull AV anyway.

[War Barney]

Even MAX vs infantry the TTK is VERY similar, if I run right into a VS or TR MAX I die almost instantly if I get hit with both barrels, exactly the same as the NC MAX does.

[Dragonskin]

Even MAX vs infantry the TTK is VERY similar, if I run right into a VS or TR MAX I die almost instantly if I get hit with both barrels, exactly the same as the NC MAX does.

You can't even argue with this LOL. 32 rounds from NC AI options in the same time frame as 16 rounds from TR which is the fastest firing AI option.

32 rounds in 1 second with shotguns
16 rounds in 1 second with chainguns

[War Barney]

er... I can argue it cos I'm quite clearly correct, hell I just finished checking it, if you hit both barrels with the NC MAX yes its a instant kill on infantry but the VS and TR MAX still have a kill time of under a second at the range you'd need to be to do that as a NC MAX so its hardly a *massive advantage*

Hell I'd take the sustained fire and massive magazine size the VS and TR guns have any day. And of course you seem to be thinking every NC MAX player hits 100% of the time, our guns have little margin for error like all our guns, if your not a pro hitting 90% of your shots you will suffer massively compared to a Vs and TR MAX which give you leeway to miss and find your aim.

[Dragonskin]

er... I can argue it cos I'm quite clearly correct, hell I just finished checking it, if you hit both barrels with the NC MAX yes its a instant kill on infantry but the VS and TR MAX still have a kill time of under a second at the range you'd need to be to do that as a NC MAX so its hardly a *massive advantage*.

A NC shotgun can fire 6 rounds every .33 seconds at the slowest. So even if you miss a few with the first pull the second can come in a third of a second later. 24 rounds fired in .33 seconds when you already said both barrels hitting the first time is instant death.

TR max at the highest fire rate is 492rpm. 8 rounds a second. 8 * 125 damage is 1,000 damage over a full second. 2 chainguns so 8 rounds in .5 seconds. It will require more than .5 seconds to kill if you miss at all or if they have heavy shields.

It's those fractions of a second that can mean life or death. Instant death vs near instant. Hopeless vs Hope.

EDIT - .33 seconds at the fastest since they are semi-auto, but it's still achievable. Probably just not accurate to say you can consistently fire that fast. Even then your talking doubling your damage output in roughly the same time it takes a TR to drop 1 player without missing.

[War Barney]

I really don't know where this made up math is coming from but my guns don't fire that fast.. the full auto hacksaw might but the non auto MAX shotguns sure as hell dont. And it doesn't change the fact that a TR/VS MAX can kill infantry at point blank range in under a second with much more leniency for missing.

Oddly enough I and almost the entire world don't have split second reactions that could save you when your point blank with a MAX, well perhaps if its a NC MAX you have a chance as if they miss its going to take longer to shoot again than with a VS/TR MAX which is constantly spraying bullets at you

[VikingKong]

More options would definitely be nice, but I'll be keeping my Grinders either way. Give me a pair of those and the Charge ability and I'm a happy man. Not everyone shares my love of (or has the skills for D;) shotties, though. So I can understand the hate they get. I hope SOE haven't forgot about MAXs entirely, but the lack of anything MAX related on the Roadmap is a bit worrying.

[Chewy]

Right, maxes kill infantry quick regardless. Just that NC maxes have a shotgun so 1 button press and 6 points of damage come out from just 1 cannon all at the same time. 12 points of damage if you have 2 shotguns on. It's the straight up burst that kills and TR/VS have nothing in that ball park.

12 rounds coming at you in a matter of milliseconds vs 16 rounds coming at you over the period of a full second (TR Mercy at 492rpm which is the highest RPM of VS or TR weapons). Not to mention at the slowest rate of fire for NC maxes that is 3 shots a second. 3 * 12 = 36 rounds coming at you in the same time frame as 16 from TR. That is quite a big difference.

Yea, TR and VS can put out a lot of damage, but it's over a greater period of time.

That all makes a huge difference in reaction time of the target. In my experience across all 3 factions I would rather be NC infantry rushing max held defended area than VS or TR. By the time you even process that you saw a NC max those 12 shots are already in the air flying towards you. If they don't all hit you then congrats you literally dodged the bullet, but it's not much skill involved and a lot more luck.

Anyway, I'm not here saying that NC players are terrible for playing with their maxes. I agree that NC should have other medium-long range options, but in exchange TR and VS need similar close range options.

Just giving the NC a HMG and calling it a day isn't enough. You are complaining about balance after all.. so you should agree that things should be equally balanced on all sides.. right?

Page 1, post 2.

Im 100% in favor of giving all MAXes NS weapon versions of a HMG and shotgun.

Hell, if this was PS1. Id be one of those guys that would setup meetings with another faction to trade weapons and ammo. Shame MAXes couldn't do that, but that's another game and another topic.


Im also not a fan of your idea of counting pellets the same as a bullet. Pellets have at least an additional spread of 2.5 to 4 added to the weapons base COF. When fisting someone that isn't going to make a damn but that spread is a major point as to why shotguns don't have range.

You fire 6 pellets at a time and you have no say to where they land. Could land hits with them all, could whiff with every one. Even within 10m if you don't aim center mass you have odds of whiffing or just landing 1-3 pellets. Get a speedy little fuck around you that is clipping into you as well, and you could even whiff an entire mag and not kill. Iv done that to MAXes and had that done to me.

Then you have damage values of pellets next to bullets. Pellets have 112-130 damage at most and start dropping at 8m-10m to a measly 45-75 at just 18m, Mattocks take their 70 to 30m. The damage in 3 out of the 4 weapons drop to 1/3 of what they start at within 10m. That's WELL under the size of a normal room and just longer than a hallway is wide in this game. So 3 out of the 4 NC MAX AI weapons have problems just going from one room to another. At least Mattocks keep most of their base damage while going across a room.

Add the pellet spread to the massive damage drop and you have something that can be countered by walking backwards 2-3 steps. Just getting from a spawn room to the cap point in most outposts is hell as a NC AI MAX. So much open ground that you have to hide from or be chipped away before being able to return that favor.

[almalino]

The real problem with NC MAX is that I could not spawn it 2 days in a row during weekend play on Miller playing NC. I never had enough resources for that.

Any ideas why is that?

[Dragonskin]

I really don't know where this made up math is coming from but my guns don't fire that fast.. the full auto hacksaw might but the non auto MAX shotguns sure as hell dont.

http://planetside.wikia.com/wiki/AF-34_Mattock - which is current as of PU2 so that means NC max weapons are still the same. Look at the in game tooltips and everything matches except they have chamber time in game instead of RPM. I'm going to go with SOE being off on the tooltip in game because they are in other areas and are still missing vital information.

The old Google doc that hasn't been updated since November 2012 has the same RPMs as the Wikia. I seriously doubt the wikia is wrong.

Hacksaws are listed at 209RPM and 125 damage per shot.. so in CQC hacksaws are even more damage output than mattocks.

Using the mattock as my example which comes in at 180 RPM which is 3 shots per second. 60 X 3 = 180. That is simple math. Each shot puts 6 pellets down range at a maximum of 112 damage (for the mattock which is the lowest starting damage). 6 X 112 = 672.. but that is for 1 mattock.. not 2. So double the figures. 3 shots per second at 1,344 damage per shot or 1,344 damage every .33 seconds.. because 33 is 1/3 of 1. So you already did enough damage to kill someone in the first click of your mouse.. but a mere .33 seconds later you can double that damage to 2,688 damage.

TR's highest fire rate chaingun is 492RPM. 492RPM is 8.2 shots per second. Each bullet is 125 at max damage. Sounds like a good start right? No, wrong. Fail. So 8 shots per second is 1,000 damage. Since you have 2 chainguns you can divide the shots needed to kill by half. 8 shots in .5 seconds to hit 1,000 damage.

So it takes TR chainguns at the fastest fire rate .5 seconds to do 1,000 damage while in the same time frame you can pump out 2,688 damage with mattocks. Like I said.. hacksaws are even more damage in a shorter time frame. Hence why everyone feels NC maxes have too much burst damage for close quarters.

Page 1, post 2.

Im 100% in favor of giving all MAXes NS weapon versions of a HMG and shotgun.

Hell, if this was PS1. Id be one of those guys that would setup meetings with another faction to trade weapons and ammo. Shame MAXes couldn't do that, but that's another game and another topic.


Im also not a fan of your idea of counting pellets the same as a bullet. Pellets have at least an additional spread of 2.5 to 4 added to the weapons base COF. When fisting someone that isn't going to make a damn but that spread is a major point as to why shotguns don't have range.

You fire 6 pellets at a time and you have no say to where they land. Could land hits with them all, could whiff with every one. Even within 10m if you don't aim center mass you have odds of whiffing or just landing 1-3 pellets. Get a speedy little fuck around you that is clipping into you as well, and you could even whiff an entire mag and not kill. Iv done that to MAXes and had that done to me.

Then you have damage values of pellets next to bullets. Pellets have 112-130 damage at most and start dropping at 8m-10m to a measly 45-75 at just 18m, Mattocks take their 70 to 30m. The damage in 3 out of the 4 weapons drop to 1/3 of what they start at within 10m. That's WELL under the size of a normal room and just longer than a hallway is wide in this game. So 3 out of the 4 NC MAX AI weapons have problems just going from one room to another. At least Mattocks keep most of their base damage while going across a room.

Add the pellet spread to the massive damage drop and you have something that can be countered by walking backwards 2-3 steps. Just getting from a spawn room to the cap point in most outposts is hell as a NC AI MAX. So much open ground that you have to hide from or be chipped away before being able to return that favor.

You can't AIM chainguns any better than a shotgun. You can't ADS with a max gun. At least with the Heavy MCG you have a spread indicator to know roughly how wide your shots are going and max chainguns still have bloom like all other weapons on full auto. So the spread is just as valid in the debate... so yea, I will count each pellet as a bullet because it counts the same. Potential damage is potential damage.

The damage drop off is made up by the fact that you can fire .33 seconds after each shot. With each shot putting 12 bullets down range. You will have to be in medium range for TR to start to get an advantage and that still doesn't make up for the fact that it takes TR chainguns a minium of .5 seconds to kill a player without over shields without missing.. because you will miss.. you can't ADS and TR chainguns have bloom too.

How did SOE attempt to balance this? Oh yea, we will give NC longer reloads and TR can have larger ammo pools with higher fire rates.. because you know that all balances out right? :rofl:

Also you left out that NC maxes are shields that they DO use to absorb damage that would have hit them. VS's ability makes them take more damage while they dish out damage.. so they aren't going to use that to cover ground. TR have lockdown... which is the exact opposite of moving forward. That is standing completely still and taking all the damage without a damage shield. So excuse me while I cry for any NC maxes harmed while making it from the spawn from to a building.

[War Barney]

<sigh> ok time to just ignore you dragon, as I said I've already tested it ingame and the time it takes to kill infantry with a VS/TR MAX is under a second so your entire argument is completely and totally wrong. you obviously are just terrified of a NC MAX that is capable of doing anything.

As we've said we are fine with a NS shotgun as well, hell if you like have a NS shotgun that is 2x better than any NC shotgun currently available, it'll still be useless in so many situations unless they make it better by tripling its range that nobody will use it.

[mrmrmrj]

All MAX AI options should be full auto like all TR and VS AI MAX weapons.

[War Barney]

Even full auto a shotgun is still a shotgun, it'll still only have a 5m range making it all but useless unless you get near enough point blank range. And of course they'd need either double or triple the magazine size OR about 2-3x faster reload to make them viable. The easiest option would just be to give us a HMG option.

I don't get why soe don't just do this, VS and TR whine non stop that shotgun MAX is OP and they wanted it nerfed and all we keep asking for is a HMG option while giving the VS and TR a shotgun option. If they think its so OP why don't they support us asking for this and get themself that OP shotgun MAX? unless they know shotguns are useless and actually just don't want our MAX to ever be useful... nah that can't be it, must be some other reason they are so set against getting shotguns for their MAXs

[VikingKong]

You can petition for new guns all you want, but calling our current MAX useless is just silly.
https://www.planetside2.com/players/#!/5428101923201390497/killboard

[War Barney]

Its not really, while its not totally useles it is pretty useless, I'm guessing most of those kills were in a biolab or while part of a zerg so you didn't have anybody to really challenge you. One list of kills by playing nothing but a MAX for a while doesn't prove anything, if you had played another other class most likely you'd have got a LOT more kills and a VS/TR MAX would have got many many more.

[Plaqueis]

The real problem with NC MAX is that I could not spawn it 2 days in a row during weekend play on Miller playing NC. I never had enough resources for that.

Any ideas why is that?

Think the f**ked up resource system only applies to NC maxes?