A question of slugs

[War Barney]

I've taken to enjoying the piston recently on my LA but I was wondering what peoples opinion on slugs is, people in my outfit seem to say not to use them but no slugs means anything outside a 5m range kills me easily as my shots are just to widespread at that range to do any damage.

Is it actually worth using slugs to be able to kill people at longer ranges or does it sacrifice way to much damage in the up close fights to make it worth it?

[Chewy]

On infantry shotguns slugs can be put to use. All non pump slugs do 500 damage at 8m and drop to 334 at 40M. Think of them as a 3 hit kill weapon and they can be good.

But you need the right weapon to use them on. Full-auto shotguns are not bad, fast enough for the 3 hits in CQC and still able to ADS. High mag shotguns are nice from more ammo, 3 hits needed is almost any case makes having more ammo GREAT. But the fast reload shotguns do suffer a bit compared to the rest thanks to no extra something to help slugs, faster reloads isn't going to help as much as the other perks.

Im no fan of slugs. Wanted to get them to work on my Mauler but after 300+ certs (slugs + scopes) not to find a niche, I couldn't find a good spot to put them to work.

[mrmrmrj]

I wish the devs would give us more info on all slug options. They are not cheap cert-wise.

[Chewy]

I wish the devs would give us more info on all slug options. They are not cheap cert-wise.

There are 2 types of slugs. Pump action and normal. All shotguns, including MAX shotguns, use normal slugs but pump action shotguns.

Normal slugs-
500 damage at 8m.
334 damage at 40m.

Pump action slugs-
800 damage at 8m.
400 damage at 40m.

All in all, slugs will remove raw damage no matter the weapon for normalizing damage. Normal slugs will have a 2-3 hit kill even with head shots and Pump slugs have a change for a one hit head shot kill. Another up side is that the weapons pellet spread is ignored and slugs only use the the base COF, travel speed, and bloom. The base COF + being able to ADS makes slugs a half-assed sniper with slow speeds but that bloom often makes it impossible to do rapid fire and maintain accuracy like most other weapons. Plus the amount of drop slugs have tends to make it rather hard to take them at range anyway.

Slugs are cheaper than a new weapon but give that new weapon feel to the shotgun you put them on. They just are not that good compared to another weapon you can take if range is what you need.

[War Barney]

Well I tested them a bit tonight and I like the range they give (managed to snipe a guy from the balcony in a tech plant while he was on A shooting me with a lmg) BUT it is REALLY annoying how the huge cof means unless you ADS with every shot you're likely to miss a lot. It makes them good for very short and medium range fights but oddly enough the range at which they work best without slugs they are really quite bad.

Perhaps I just need to get use to it a bit more as its only been 1 night but so far im unconvinced its worth it.. perhaps laser sight will make it better but the inaccuracy unless you ADS is so bad I'm not sure its worth it without I'd say.

[Ghoest9]

You can kill people with them - but they arent good at killing people.

At one time they were modestly effective and kind of fun - now there is no reason to bother except curiosity.

[almalino]

At one time they were modestly effective and kind of fun - now there is no reason to bother except curiosity.

And then people in other threads suggest to use slugs on NC max when we complain about shotguns range.

[War Barney]

And then people in other threads suggest to use slugs on NC max when we complain about shotguns range.

Aye that is funny isn't it =p thanks to how slugs work they don't even make it that much better as its so easy to miss when you don't ADS but you CAN'T ADS as a MAX. What I've learnt from using our MAX is while you'll die non stop and have a range of 0m you may as well not use slugs and just go for rambo mode hoping the engis keep up somehow.

Wish they'd change slugs to make them useful.. hell even if it was a cool new type of slug for NC to emphasis our role as the shotgun faction. I know slugs aren't *useless* but so far my testing has shown they just aren't worth the extra effort, you're far better off just switching to a rifle when you're going to be fighting mainly outside then switch again for inside fighting, slugs just screw up the things which make a shotgun great and don't add much.

[Emperor Newt]

At least the VS slugs were worthwhile. But then people needed to complain that VS slugs have no drop and so instead of making all slugs useful they simply made the last remaining one shitty too. Balancing SOE style.

[Binkley]

Aye that is funny isn't it =p thanks to how slugs work they don't even make it that much better as its so easy to miss when you don't ADS but you CAN'T ADS as a MAX. What I've learnt from using our MAX is while you'll die non stop and have a range of 0m you may as well not use slugs and just go for rambo mode hoping the engis keep up somehow.


For ages I listened to posts like this one and didn't bother with slugs. Then I finally tried them in my hacksaws and found that I like them. They're not sniper rifles, but I can finally kill people on the far side of the room. YMMV, but they certainly have value for the NC max.

[War Barney]

For ages I listened to posts like this one and didn't bother with slugs. Then I finally tried them in my hacksaws and found that I like them. They're not sniper rifles, but I can finally kill people on the far side of the room. YMMV, but they certainly have value for the NC max.

Not much really, the problem is with a slug its ONE projectile and it will fire randomly into that huge circle of a CoF you have, sure you have a longer range but it means that its likely to just miss, hell unless somebody COMPLETELY fills that circle you could stand right next to somebody and miss with both barrels, its unlikely but if theres even a little bit of the circle not filled by the enemy your shot could go there and not hit a thing, and when you've got such a small magazine size and slow reload thats a huge issue.

You're better off going for the mattocks without slugs for long range, hacksaws you want to be right up next to the enemy anyway so slugs sound like a horrible idea which would also ruin the whole point of them.

[Binkley]

Not much really, the problem is with a slug its ONE projectile and it will fire randomly into that huge circle of a CoF you have, sure you have a longer range but it means that its likely to just miss, hell unless somebody COMPLETELY fills that circle you could stand right next to somebody and miss with both barrels, its unlikely but if theres even a little bit of the circle not filled by the enemy your shot could go there and not hit a thing, and when you've got such a small magazine size and slow reload thats a huge issue.

You're better off going for the mattocks without slugs for long range, hacksaws you want to be right up next to the enemy anyway so slugs sound like a horrible idea which would also ruin the whole point of them.

I agree Mattocks are better for range, but if you already have Hacksaws and not Mattocks, watchagonnado? Slugs add versatility to my Hacksaws.

I don't have trouble hitting targets with my Hack-slugs. When they are standing next to me the targets do fill the whole circle and when further away, I only single-volley them, no full auto. Slugs make a huge difference in Hacksaws, which without slugs often cannot kill someone on the other side of a room even with a full mag-dump. In tower defenses, I can now stand at the top of the staircase to the garage and kill people at the bottom of the stairs. Unheard of without slugs. When I bought the Hacksaws, they had bigger magazines, faster fire rates, and maybe faster reloads, but they got whacked with the nerf bat. Not sure if I would buy them now.

[War Barney]

The sad thing is though you'll probably find that at the ranges your talking about you get more success using a heavy with a LMG, the accuracy just isn't there to kill people before they shove a rocket in you, and up close its such a HUGE hit to the killing ability. I guess its worth getting if you happen to be in a MAX and don't want to switch out for longer range fights but its definitely not something you want to keep as standard.

If you didn't have mattocks I'd be inclined to just not use a MAX till you get them, or my plan, don't use MAX till they finally give us a HMG so our MAX can have an effective range beyond 5m. OR make slugs actually useful... even if its just for our MAX, I'd like them to be worth using in a normal shotgun as well but I can accept shotguns being just short range options when I have a choice, when it comes to our MAX we have no choice though so its kinda stupid that slugs have such huge flaws when its the only way to have a hope of killing somebody on the other side of a room.

[BlazingSun]

The problem with slugs for semi-automatic shotguns are:
a) low bullet velocity - this is the biggest issue the way I see it.
b) too much COF increase with continued fire.

It should be a high risk / high reward kind of weapon setup, but instead it's pretty much one of the worst things in the game.

[mrmrmrj]

I am someone who used to love slugs in my Hacksaws and have recently changed my mind. Yes, slugs do give some extra versatility and the 5m killing power versus infantry is not really affected since it only takes 3 slugs to kill and you can shoot 3 very quickly. However, slugs are awful in MAX v MAX situations when the pellets do so much more damage and it is easier to put them all on a MAX. Plus, I really like killing 3 infantry almost instantly with hacksaws in close quarters.

So, I spent 1000 certs on dual slugging my Hacksaws and have now unequipped slugs for good. I have also ditched Aegis Shield for Charge so that I can charge into rooms and then just start laying about with 20 shots (extra ammo cert is almost God mode). Most of the enemy is usually dead before any of them can even pull out a rocket launcher.

[War Barney]

I am someone who used to love slugs in my Hacksaws and have recently changed my mind. Yes, slugs do give some extra versatility and the 5m killing power versus infantry is not really affected since it only takes 3 slugs to kill and you can shoot 3 very quickly. However, slugs are awful in MAX v MAX situations when the pellets do so much more damage and it is easier to put them all on a MAX. Plus, I really like killing 3 infantry almost instantly with hacksaws in close quarters.

So, I spent 1000 certs on dual slugging my Hacksaws and have now unequipped slugs for good. I have also ditched Aegis Shield for Charge so that I can charge into rooms and then just start laying about with 20 shots (extra ammo cert is almost God mode). Most of the enemy is usually dead before any of them can even pull out a rocket launcher.

This is what I keep hearing from everybody who uses a MAX, it seems the shield is more either for certain situations or just for people who think its cool but don't realise how bad it is, I must admit I certed it to rank 3 but I realised I never find a use for it, its ok for standing in front of a enemy spawn and laughing but as for actual useful situations.. well I've not found a place where it would be helpful over charge.

And slugs, its a death sentence against a MAX as the dam age is lowered so much and if you do use charge you can just use that to get close and not need slugs and run away if you get in trouble

[mrmrmrj]

The Shield is good if you realize you can use it AND reload at the same time, but my experience has been that a shield is not going to save you most of the time. Charge plus a pocket engineer is a lot better than Aegis Shield.

[War Barney]

Even reloading with the shield isn't great, most intelligent enemies will just use that time to reload as well (and faster than you so they'll be shooting again before you are) OR they'll just shoot you with explosive which seem to ignore the shield (or the splash just goes right through it).

Charge however they can't counter so easily and is great for attacking as well

[Chewy]

I was wondering when this was going to turn into a NC MAX thread. Almost did it myself.

My views on a slug MAX. I don't use a slug MAX, ever. If I can't get slugs to work on infantry weapons, I wont get them to work on MAX weapons as they don't have perks like ADS or laser sights that can make slugs worth a damn.

The shield though I LOVED when it first came out. Maxed it out ASAP and it now sits unused but for with my Bursters. That shield has lost me countless amounts of ammo from my pool by abusing it to cover reloads in both AI and AV work. Loosing a shell or 2 isn't bad, loosing 2 entire mags out of each arm is lethal. Once the bug happens it is impossible to get that ammo back without a respawn or finding a terminal. Respawn is out of the question and finding a terminal is nuts hard if you're not already at one thanks to all fights base being away from an AMS and oh so many terminals being destroyed by both your team without hacking them and the enemy team to keep you from getting them. Plus SOE seen fit to remove just about every terminal from every base that isn't in a spawn room.

I SO wanted to keep using the shield. But that ammo bug when using it to much for reloading and it bleeding damage from everything ends up killing me. Charge is just great for a fast GTFO and it has saved my ass far more than the shield. Even after all of that, I still use the shield for AA work. Charge isn't going to save you from a Lib or ESF attack but the shield can. Tank a set of rocket pods and the ESF will bug out or be in real risk of death and being able to block at least some Lib damage is better than nothing. Also works wonders being able to use it to stop C4 if you can notice it fast enough. Though I haven't used the shield to block C4 in a LONG time now, can't say if it still blocks that. I ate an AP mine with the shield up and took 100% of that damage so maybe C4 is going to pass by as well.

[War Barney]

It was always going to happen I guess as our MAX is affected most by how useful slugs are. My experience of the shield is that explosives seem to always bypass it thus why I've stopped using it.

The worst thing is that the devs seem to be saying that they think that MAX skills like zoe and lockdown need buffing, and the shield only to a lesser degree... so zoe is not only WAY better than our shield but its going to get a much bigger buff than our shield is soon... so... they are actuallly making our MAX worse instead in comparison to other MAXs...

[Chewy]

It was always going to happen I guess as our MAX is affected most by how useful slugs are. My experience of the shield is that explosives seem to always bypass it thus why I've stopped using it.

The worst thing is that the devs seem to be saying that they think that MAX skills like zoe and lockdown need buffing, and the shield only to a lesser degree... so zoe is not only WAY better than our shield but its going to get a much bigger buff than our shield is soon... so... they are actuallly making our MAX worse instead in comparison to other MAXs...

Not much can be done to buff the shield. The main things Id think of is being able to fire with the left hand, make reloading doable without having to risk a bug, and maybe give it a melee attack if using the left weapon is to much.

Lockdown is just to picky in where it can be used and is prone to eating grenades bounced around a turn. ZOE though I don't want to see back, I can't think of how to buff that without crossing a line MAXes shouldn't cross.


Past not being able to think of a ZOE thing. I have something the devs can rip off to make lockdown better. Or an overdrive type thing.
Earth Defense Force 2025 - Mission 6 - Inferno Difficulty - YouTube

Say hi to the Fencer class in Earth Defense Force 2025. His chain guns are what I think lockdown should have been. Give the weapons a spin up time where, unlike the MCG, you don't fire till full spin but fire at MUCH higher ROF. With the cost of a spin up you also can't move all that well while firing. You slow to a crawl and your aiming speed drops to sim the effects of shooting a chain gun and it almost controlling you. Maybe have higher bloom if you walk as well.

Fire one weapon and it isn't bad. Fire both and you get the full effects. Still able to move, but can't move with any speed or control for using dual high RPM weapons. Turn it off and you have a cool down moment if you fired in the last 10-20 seconds. Costs nothing to turn it on though, but can't be shooting when you do.

[Illtempered]

Ok well if it must become an NC MAX thread here goes. I do very well with this setup, and start drooling when I see the chance to pull my Scat. It's one of the things on my NC character that pads my stats quite a lot. Yes I wait mostly for biolab fights, but anything in the medium to short range where I can use cover and mostly stay away from vehicles, will work. For starters, if you're not doing that, you're doing it wrong. I'm talking about an AI setup, so it should not also be able to kill vehicles well.

I use the default Scat with a Mattock on the other arm. Both with slugs, and both with extended mags. If I need to take a really long shot, I just tap with the Mattock and it is incredibly accurate up to at least 50m. I constantly head-shot softies that think they are out of my range and stand still. Anything closer than that and both of my slugs are going right at their heads. I also have max autorep and max charge.

I'm sorry, but if you're not owning infantry with this setup in the right situations, you are doing it wrong.

[Baneblade]

I'd like Slugs on my Jackhammer and Canister.

[War Barney]

slugs in a jackhammer might work well as its already a very small CoF I still think it would suffer though, especially the burst fire mode

[almalino]

If I need to take a really long shot, I just tap with the Mattock and it is incredibly accurate up to at least 50m. I constantly head-shot softies that think they are out of my range and stand still.

I just tested mattock with slugs on VR at 50 meters and the hit rate is 20%.
2 bullets out of 10 gets into the target if I aim in the middle of the body. Also, OHK headshots are not possible from that distance because slugs are losing killing power at that distance.

Something is wrong with your statement above unles you consider 20% hit rate as "incredible accurate"

[War Barney]

I just tested mattock with slugs on VR at 50 meters and the hit rate is 20%.
2 bullets out of 10 gets into the target if I aim in the middle of the body. Also, OHK headshots are not possible from that distance because slugs are losing killing power at that distance.

Something is wrong with your statement above unles you consider 20% hit rate as "incredible accurate"

Well chances are he's a VS who wants to keep our MAX bad but is going to claim hes a BR 100 NC with all his kills OHKs from 100m using scat cannons

[Illtempered]

Well I guess I should slightly amend my comment to be more specific. If it's a long shot, I just use the single Mattock, but anything in the close to medium ranges I use both. I never said the Mattock was a OHK with a head-shot and didn't mean to imply that. Up to 50m many times I can head-shot people with the slugs, especially those that stand still, thinking they are out of pellet range.

I don't test things in the VR or look at too many numbers. I just play...and when I play NC I always salivate at a chance to pull my scatmax and get some CQC. If you don't, you're doing it wrong.

[War Barney]

Its obvious that you hardly ever play a NC, you claim to like using scats for CQC yet also say that the shield is awesome and everybody should use it, if you use the shield you'll never be in range for scats and you'd know that if you played NC full time.

Hell from your posts I'm wondering if you even play PS2 in general that often. I'll explain for you so you don't make yourself look a fool as often. The way a shotgun works is that huge CoF will have a spread of pellets all over it at random, anywhere in that area your shots might hit. A slug makes your pellets become ONE big bullet, HOWEVER it will also fire randomly into that huge CoF, as such slugs are far less accurate. they can have a greater range as they don't spread out into nothing at range but as it fire randomly into the huge CoF its unlikely to hit anything. Hell its actually possible to be point blank range with a slugs shotgun and miss if any part of the enemy isn't in that circle.

Sure it can be fun using charge and spamming shotguns as our MAX but its really never going to get you anywhere as the second you go outside you die and our MAX is so slow it often dies before it gets into range. Thats why charge is essential, its no ZOE but it helps.

[Illtempered]

Ok nub you had to make me pull out the big guns. You can call me a loser, no-lifer, what have you, but how DARE you accuse me of not playing PS2 that often!!!1 It's like, one of my jobs man.

Here are my NC character stats:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/character-5428066778527932961.php

[Ghoest9]

At least the VS slugs were worthwhile. But then people needed to complain that VS slugs have no drop and so instead of making all slugs useful they simply made the last remaining one shitty too. Balancing SOE style.


You are welcome.

Although I do agree that I wish we had the old slugs back for all factions. They were situationally useful but not over powered.

[almalino]

I play NC all the time. Out of curiocity I tried VS MAX Blueshifts on both hands.
O man. It is automatic sniper rifle on the 50 meters range.

After that I tried NC MAX with slugs and cannot kill a shit at 50 meters. And we need to pres buttons every time to fir that disturbs aiming. Terrible

[War Barney]

I play NC all the time. Out of curiocity I tried VS MAX Blueshifts on both hands.
O man. It is automatic sniper rifle on the 50 meters range.

After that I tried NC MAX with slugs and cannot kill a shit at 50 meters. And we need to pres buttons every time to fir that disturbs aiming. Terrible

And don't forget the larger clips and ability to turn corners while shooting which comes with it. but I'm sure some VS will come to tell us how its far better to have a MAX which is pretty good at the 0-5m range than one which is awesome up to 50m

[almalino]

And don't forget the larger clips and ability to turn corners while shooting which comes with it. but I'm sure some VS will come to tell us how its far better to have a MAX which is pretty good at the 0-5m range than one which is awesome up to 50m

Barney, I tested and at 10 meters NC MAX is 100% accurate with slugs if you aim at the body :) So, it is 10 meters radius, not 5.

[almalino]

[Test] NC MAX vs. TR MAX Anti-infantry weaponry 11.01.13 - YouTube

TR vs NC Maxes. NC wins at 5 meters ONLY :) Sooo cool. Sure, NC max is owerpowered. Sure , it strong face to face at 5 meters but then it use is very limited

[War Barney]

Now now thats only a video thats no proof! theres tons of videos showing how the NC MAX will lose at any range beyond 5m against another MAX but that obviously isn't the proof thats needed, no the REAL proof comes from random VS and TR players who have no evidence SAYING our MAX is OP, its on those strong grounds our MAX is constantly nerfed into the ground

[Snoopy]

Yep, that's the proof right there guys. /thread


smh

[almalino]

Just happen to have a duel wityh TR MAX. I had shotguns with slugs on both hands. Not sure what TR MAX had. ~15 meters between us. I think I started to shoot first. Didn't help. I died in a terrible death and TR max was 75% full health on death screen. Pathetic under powered NC MAX.

TR MAX was not even afraid of me. I guess hew knows that NC MAX is useless on 10+ meters distance. There is no reason for him to hide.

[Chewy]

(Vid snip)

TR vs NC Maxes. NC wins at 5 meters ONLY :) Sooo cool. Sure, NC max is owerpowered. Sure , it strong face to face at 5 meters but then it use is very limited

You forgot to say that this video and the other one for NCvVS is VERY old now. Back near launch with stats before any of the shotgun nerfs that I can remember.

Notice the ammo counts. That video has more ammo in each mag and in the pool. Also if that video bothered to show the damage values. All shotguns did more damage back then but I think had different drop values. Can't remember the right stats and don't have any pics of them back then.

Since those videos, there has been at least 2-3 blanket shotgun nerfs and a few buffs to the MAXes small arms resistances with a number of balance changes to most or all TR and VS MAX AI weapons.

[War Barney]

The saddest thing is I try to point out that theres video evidence that our MAX is worse than any other MAX and get greeted by people saying *Ignore videos*... seriously some people are so stupid they say to ignore testing in control conditions as they think random fights where you could be fighting people with 1/4 hp left tells you more about balance...

Sometimes I wonder if thats how soe does their balance, instead of test conditions they just play for 20 mins and see what happens to kill them a lot and which guns they don't like at the time then buff/nerf based on that.

[Chewy]

The saddest thing is I try to point out that theres video evidence that our MAX is worse than any other MAX and get greeted by people saying *Ignore videos*... seriously some people are so stupid they say to ignore testing in control conditions as they think random fights where you could be fighting people with 1/4 hp left tells you more about balance...

Sometimes I wonder if thats how soe does their balance, instead of test conditions they just play for 20 mins and see what happens to kill them a lot and which guns they don't like at the time then buff/nerf based on that.

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/max-balance-part-4-everything-ai.139234/

That was me. I also posted those tests here, somewhere. I know the pain of doing work and having it ignored or countered with 2 word posts by people that never bother to look at what they see.

Though they do have a point on controlled tests being inaccurate compared to the gameplay from the impossible to count number of details that could, might, will, and never happen. Stats can read one way but act how not how you think. That's why I did a video for every weapon tests and broke down everything I could to basics. Raw mind numbingly weapon use without any added effects to see where foundations lay.

Does it tell the whole story? No, never will.
Does it show the starting point that everything is based off of? Yes.


But, on the other hand. I can see the flaws in my tests. And that a chunk of those tests are now outdated (again) from simple reload time changes. I already reworked the only damage change for MAX AI weapons (Mattock) in the last page but haven't bothered redoing all of the math to reflect the changes in reload times. Even if it's as small as the Scattercannon change, .0XXX, it still effects the TTKs where a reload is needed.

Maybe I should redo the math again in the hopes that something will come out of it in the April balance update. Higby asked about if it would be better changing weapons to fit lacking roles or just have new weapons and has already said that the ESAs for MAXes is getting a pass. Maybe we could see a weapon change or new weapons for MAXes. Maybe.

[Baneblade]

Not to say that controlled environment testing isn't appropriate, but ultimately balance has to be on the battlefield. So I'll take 'perceived' balance in a fight over technical balance in VR.