Higby's "Expedition" Continents

[Edfishy]

Higby explained on the PS2 forums (https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/next-live-update-news-and-status.190580/) how and why they're doing Hossin now.

The jist is that it takes the level designers 2-3 weeks to produce a "Amerish-quality" outpost, with that time roughly multiplied out by a factor of 80 to fully complete a continent. Higby describes Hossin's outposts at the moment as being 50% polished, 25% first pass, and 25% copy-paste bases, and refers to Hossins early release as an "Early Expedition" continent.

Well heck, I say you throw down some construction equipment and barrels and just make this a part of the game! Make new continents that "aren't fully established" a part of the game's lore.

For new "expedition" continents, I imagine it couldn't take much more than a month for SOE's artists to create the raw landscape. Cookie cutter in some PS2:Beta style bases and you're talking a new continent every month or so! (Ranik here (https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/next-live-update-news-and-status.190580/page-2#post-2762508) even suggested a rudimentary base placement setup for Outfits)

I can understand with SOE's new locking mechanism that they might have qualms in the cases where new players might end up locked into "Low Quality" continent. That's why if expedition continents to be a thing, I'd have their mechanics different so they are locked / unlocked along with the "High Quality" continents, something akin to the battle islands.

What do you think? Are more "Early Expedition" continents an answer to PS2's continent problem?

Edit: I had previously misquoted that there were "80 outposts" that needed to be done per continent. This has been corrected!

[ringring]

Higby explained on the PS2 forums (https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/next-live-update-news-and-status.190580/) how and why they're doing Hossin now.

The jist is that it takes the level designers 2-3 weeks to produce a "Amerish-quality" outpost, and there's roughly 80 outposts needed to be finished per new continent. Higby describes Hossin's outposts at the moment as being 50% polished, 25% first pass, and 25% copy-paste bases, and refers to Hossins early release as an "Early Expedition" continent.

Well heck, I say you throw down some construction equipment and barrels and just make this a part of the game! Make new continents that "aren't fully established" a part of the game's lore.

For new "expedition" continents, I imagine it couldn't take much more than a month for SOE's artists to create the raw landscape. Cookie cutter in some PS2:Beta style bases and you're talking a new continent every month or so! (Ranik here (https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/next-live-update-news-and-status.190580/page-2#post-2762508) even suggested a rudimentary base placement setup for Outfits)

I can understand with SOE's new locking mechanism that they might have qualms in the cases where new players might end up locked into "Low Quality" continent. That's why if expedition continents to be a thing, I'd have their mechanics different so they are locked / unlocked along with the "High Quality" continents, something akin to the battle islands.

What do you think? Are more "Early Expedition" continents an answer to PS2's continent problem?

160-240 weeks is between 3 to 4.5 years to create a continent and I think they have 1 full time and 1 to 2 part time level creators at present.

The devs just have to do something.

[BlaxicanX]

I think that them needing 80 bases per continent is ridiculous.

I think that them needing 3 weeks to create one base is ridiculous.

I've always felt that there's too many bases, especially when you consider the ratio of # of bases versus the importance of any particular base. Aside from AMP stations, Tech-Labs and Biolabs, regular bases really have no significance aside from geological ones. There's really no reason for why every single base, or nearly every single base, needs to be custom-designed.

On each continent, a "template" for normal bases should be created, with just one or two minor variations. Then those templates should be C/P'd across the continent, shaping the terrain to fit around the bases. The only bases should require hand-crafting are the extremely important ones.

[Edfishy]

Not sure if it was even 80 outposts specifically that he was referring to, but just overall quality assurance. Full quote:

...we've figured out that creating a "good" outpost in Planetside 2 takes about 2-3 weeks of level design, art playtesting and iteration time minimally, per outpost. Multiply that by 80 or so, and you'll get a good idea of how much work is required for a high-quality continent.

My bad... :c

Edit

I've always felt that there's too many bases, especially when you consider the ratio of # of bases versus the importance of any particular base. Aside from AMP stations, Tech-Labs and Biolabs, regular bases really have no significance aside from geological ones. There's really no reason for why every single base, or nearly every single base, needs to be custom-designed.

Yeah, it does feel really weird doesn't it? Bases are literally stacked one on top of another. I've come to wonder if it wasn't done for two reasons:

#1. Shorten the walking distance towards another fight. Which was a miscalculation considering how outfit ops usually play out + spawn in transport.

#2. Reduce the impact of players popping into the distance by putting bases in the way. Honestly though, I never remember this being a problem in north Indar, or old Esamir.

[Stardouser]

Yeah, it does feel really weird doesn't it? Bases are literally stacked one on top of another. I've come to wonder if it wasn't done for two reasons:

#1. Shorten the walking distance towards another fight. Which was a miscalculation considering how outfit ops usually play out + spawn in transport.

#2. Reduce the impact of players popping into the distance by putting bases in the way. Honestly though, I never remember this being a problem in north Indar, or old Esamir.


You know in your heart that it's to keep down time-to-engagement pacing to help appeal to other games' players. They could always have ridges and stuff to make a distance-breaker (responding to #2) but the players of certain other games just won't play if you can't spawn and be shooting/shot at within a certain number of seconds.

[Edfishy]

So let's come up with a HART transport that goes between bases or something.

Personally, I'm for a split between "Grunts" (free players) and "Elites" (paying players). Grunts play COD and are given quick travel to bases, while the rest of us play PS and rely on transportation. But that's a different discussion altogether... >.>

[BlaxicanX]

That's dumb.

[Boildown]

80 bases per continent is fine, good even. Just increase the distance between them and make the continent bigger. Right now it seems very unrealistic. Instead of a continent, we have a county.

[Figment]

Tbh, they should release continents with 60% copy paste... then refine later.

Terrain variety is more important than base variety.

[ringring]

Tbh, they should release continents with 60% copy paste... then refine later.

Terrain variety is more important than base variety.

Didn't they imagine creating 2 new continents per year at the start? At this rate it will be one per year and this year's is Hossin.

Perhaps in the long run we'll get the continents but it's worthwhile recalling the quote from John Maynard Keynes about 'the long run'.

[Crator]

Let's just get enough continents in to have a good Planetside continent locking system. Copy/Paste all you need to. Just get it done. The detail of all the different outposts and towers (other then landscape) are nice but let's not sacrifice the real Planetside meta-game any longer then needed please.

I agree about the amount of locations between major facilities too. Way too many if you ask me.

[Baneblade]

I like the idea of a continent with wilderness more than outpost outpost outpost base outpost outpost outpost base.

[Blynd]

I look forward to the day someone in the Dev team says

" we should make fewer outposts and space the bases our more, this would make creating continents much faster and allow for meaningful ground vehicle warfare. "

It maybe a while off but hell you can wish :)

I'd rather play on 10 half built continents then 4 fully finished ones forbade next few years. Hossin should have been released last year and then as with the costs so far upgraded as they went.

[Warborn]

More places to fight period doesn't mean much if those places aren't well-designed. Continents sitting empty because nobody likes fighting there doesn't add much to the game.

[Stardouser]

More places to fight period doesn't mean much if those places aren't well-designed. Continents sitting empty because nobody likes fighting there doesn't add much to the game.

Somehow they need to get the game away from the siege mentality. Sometimes there are small fights in the spaces between bases, but not too often. Right now, the game is based on one side surrounding another side's base, and that's where most fights are determined - either you successfully get to where you can blast the defenders as they come out of the spawn, and in so doing hang on until it's capped, otherwise you get your vehicles blasted out from under you and driven off.

But if we could have 16 km continents with big distances between outposts, and (this is just a potential idea, not necessarily a suggestion) what if bases could be capped a lot faster? Outposts capture in 90 seconds max? Then there would be some value to interdicting enemy vehicles in the wilderness between bases, getting us away from the mentality of every fight must be one enemy laying siege to a base and blasting people coming out the spawn.

Of course, such a distance between bases would not appeal to the players coming from other games where the round lasts ~30 minutes and they just fast respawn deathmatch; but then these guys don't really like the current system of spawn suppression, surely?

[Blynd]

Hell just take half the outposts out of each continent would make it better

[Belhade]

Didn't they imagine creating 2 new continents per year at the start? At this rate it will be one per year and this year's is Hossin.

Perhaps in the long run we'll get the continents but it's worthwhile recalling the quote from John Maynard Keynes about 'the long run'.

I thought that was Don Henley...:doh:

[Babyfark McGeez]

Painstakingly handcrafting these continents was a really stupid idea to begin with. And 80 "or so" outposts? What? WHY? Nobody needs that many and half of them never see any action anyways. This absurd amount of unique bases is imo even bad for the gameplay (tunnel/rushlane syndrome, no space to fight) and creates so much additional balance work. I'd rather have four or five different, good base layouts that work instead of 80 that all have some annoyances, imbalances and quirks.

There is a reason PS1 relied heavily on copy+paste bases; You actually get some continents done that way, and more continents (different visuals) -> more bases (same visuals). Also you don't have to spend weeks on a design that ultimately proves to be bad and ends up eating up yet more time to be fixed.
Look, i know you SOE mappers and designers are capable to make some good looking stuff. PS2 simply is not the game for you to let it all out. It's a game "about numbers", remember?

Man, what a waste of time and to me another sign that these guys have their priorities wrong in order for a Planetside game to work and/or have no friggin' clue where they want to sail with this ship. COD clone? Original MMOFPS? Planetside? Quick buck? Identity crisis? I dunno...

So my advice because i'm a nice guy: Copy+Paste some GOOD, real BASES, and get some continents done! Put the focus on continents instead of bases and give us some original and unique enviroments instead of spending most of your time trying to arrange the same, grey props (which look the same on every continent anyways) in a different way for each base.
OR, if you really, really, insist on handcrafting every single base and can't be convinced by logic or common sense, atleast use distinctly different art styles that reflect the different continents (esamir = igloos, indar = tents, you get the idea - just check up World of Warcraft to see how it's done right).
Currently it's just the worst of both worlds.

That being ranted, i heard we get Hossin? Nice! Might have to check back in for that.

[Dougnifico]

What they should do is copy and paste their way to more continents, then slowly craft bases on those continents over time. Basically, do what they are doing with Hossin, and create the world.

[Figment]

But if we could have 16 km continents with big distances between outposts, and (this is just a potential idea, not necessarily a suggestion) what if bases could be capped a lot faster? Outposts capture in 90 seconds max? Then there would be some value to interdicting enemy vehicles in the wilderness between bases, getting us away from the mentality of every fight must be one enemy laying siege to a base and blasting people coming out the spawn.

The faster you can capture the facility, then the terrain in between becomes meaningless, since you will not need control of the terrain to bring reinforcements, then you only need a quick strike team that can hold a room for 90 seconds.

Considering your 16km sized continent will allow for a lot of circumvention, you couldn't possibly control all approach routes far away, you would need to guard the immediate perimeter of the base like a mother bear watching her cubs.

[Blynd]

They have gone for unique bases on every cont so that it's a richer environment, I can understand why but they have to absolutely have to use what already there in base design stop putting so many outposts in there and just spend the time on the actual map and land then drop the existing bases where appropriate make a couple of changes due to the lay of the land etc and job done next cont. Do it that way and it will be so much quicker for us to see new continents.

[Shamrock]

Id absolutely support the idea of expedition continents if it reduces the painfully slow roll out time for new continents, sure spend quality time on the primary bases, but copy and paste the outposts. If this principle gets us fighting on Searhus sooner then id support it 100%.


http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/241/5/8/Infernum_by_JJasso.jpg

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/015/a/7/solar_mass_by_sinakasra-d5rngxr.jpg

[Belhade]

What I've always envisioned is smaller outposts, or just small clusters of buildings, that don't have CPs, terminals or spawns in them. Not important by decree of the devs/mapmakers, but opportunities for staging points or sabotages between major bases that need to be scouted and cleared out before, say, advancing an armor column.

[Edfishy]

To alleviate the "Nobody will want to play on them" or "They won't represent the hi fidelity continents as well", I'd also only make the expedition continents available when the player numbers are high enough on the server to support them. Otherwise it's Amerish, Hossin, Indar, etc.

Might also use Stardouser's ideas on the expedition continents to make them high risk / high reward continents:

But if we could have 16 km continents with big distances between outposts, and (this is just a potential idea, not necessarily a suggestion) what if bases could be capped a lot faster? Outposts capture in 90 seconds max? Then there would be some value to interdicting enemy vehicles in the wilderness between bases, getting us away from the mentality of every fight must be one enemy laying siege to a base and blasting people coming out the spawn.

[KALU]

"Well heck, I say you throw down some construction equipment and barrels and just make this a part of the game! Make new continents that "aren't fully established" a part of the game's lore."

I actually don't mind this idea...... but it could be done well or fail terribly.
I do agree that they need to find a way to get the other continents out ALLOT faster then they have been thats for sure.

[Edfishy]

I do agree that they need to find a way to get the other continents out ALLOT faster then they have been thats for sure

Opening outpost design to Player Studio is probably the best solution. If you've watched the video streams you'd notice 90% of level design time is spent just fiddling with positions, painting mud, etc.

If bases could be crowd-sourced like helmets, decals and camos currently are, it'd allow the level artists to just extract the best player-designed bases via copy/paste.

[typhaon]

I said this long, long ago - in a time when PS2 was fresh and new... one of the bigger mistakes made was the choice to address a whole host of OTHER issues, before addressing the lack of endgame.

Games make this mistake over, and over, and over, and over...

Sure - it's nice that we eventually got better continents and nicer forts to fight around - but as simple and flawed as the original ones were... they worked. Had all those hours of dev-time (and I know not all dev-time is equal) been put into true sandbox features, continent capture, and all the other stuff you can think of - I think PS2 would've been a lot better off for it.

Along the same lines... more bases doesn't mean more fun. Any of the continents could've had their # of bases cut in half -- and replaced with just FUN features to the game and it would've been a better experience.