This game just became officially p2w [Archive]

Rolfski

2014-07-02, 06:35 AM

Figment

2014-07-02, 06:38 AM

Not pay to win if you can unlock it through gameplay tbh.

Pay to speed up progress, more like.

War Barney

2014-07-02, 06:47 AM

Hmmm its getting close to p2w at the very least, I guess it depends if your definition of p2w is using money to buy power via items its impossible to get any other way than paying money, or if its just being allowed to use money to buy things which give you an advantage.

Myself I'm not sure... I'd prefer if they didn't let you pay SC as well as it really is at least teetering on the line of p2w BUT its 100 certs for attatchments so it takes like an hour of playing to unlock stuff.

HOWEVER MAX unlocks though NOT be included, I don't know about other factions but for the NC extrended mags are absolutely essential for our guns to be useful and thats 500 certs, and often slugs are vital as well (if you want a range over 5m) which is I think 250 certs, so thats 1500 certs which give you a very definite boost in power.

One question though.. does account wide mean if I buy a laser sight with SC its unlocked for EVERY weapon on EVERY faction? if so that is a bit of a game changer as suddenly its 1000s of certs worth of stuff your getting.

Rolfski

2014-07-02, 06:57 AM

Figment

2014-07-02, 07:04 AM

Whether or not it's strictly p2w depends on the definition of p2w, which is a never ending discussion.

What's more important however is the perception of being p2w. Every single article around this game has always a big p2w discussion in the comments. And the most used argument in that discussion has always been that you could only buy side-grades, not upgrades in this game with cash. Killing off that argument is the same as throwing your non-p2w reputation out the window.

Well it was quite clear that the moment they were upgrades in beta, people would get more power from the basic. Sidegrades in PS2 is per definition more a choice between upgrades. :/

Does it matter if it's paying players that get an advantage or lib/mossie/spawncamp farmers though?

Rolfski

2014-07-02, 07:18 AM

Well it was quite clear that the moment they were upgrades in beta, people would get more power from the basic. Sidegrades in PS2 is per definition more a choice between upgrades. :/

Does it matter if it's paying players that get an advantage or lib/mossie/spawncamp farmers though?
Side-grades are definitely not designed as upgrades in this game but just as an option for a different play style.

Aside from the discussion if that truly holds up in reality, it matters a LOT if players can buy an advantage. Even with these small attachments hardly being game changers, the real damage is giving the game a bad reputation.

Osskscosco

2014-07-02, 07:23 AM

Pay2win means that you can buy overpowered things with SC but not with certs, so go home!

Figment

2014-07-02, 07:28 AM

Side-grades are definitely not designed as upgrades in this game but just as an option for a different play style.

Whether you get a side armour or front armour, both are an upgrade compared to having nothing. Both are sidegrades with respect to one another though.

Aside from the discussion if that truly holds up in reality, it matters a LOT if players can buy an advantage. Even with these small attachments hardly being game changers, the real damage is giving the game a bad reputation.

But it isn't a major advantage, I'm more upset with people that can get hundreds of certs through lame gameplay.

War Barney

2014-07-02, 07:50 AM

Pay2win means that you can buy overpowered things with SC but not with certs, so go home!

No p2w can mean either:

1. Buying power with money, which this technically is as you are spending money to get a more stable gun / better hip fire which is buying power.

2. Buying power with money that other people can't get without paying money, basically meaning you can never be as powerful as somebody who paid money.

2 is obviously the worst form of it as it means if you pay you will pretty much always win, but 1 is still teetering on that line, its basically going 1 step further from exp boosts which save you time by letting you earn certs faster by instead just letting you spend money instead of certs.

Rolfski

2014-07-02, 07:51 AM

Pay2win means that you can buy overpowered things with SC but not with certs, so go home!
That's only one definition of p2w. The problem is that there are more definitions of p2w and this game just became p2w by one of these definitions, which is bad PR.

Whether you get a side armour or front armour, both are an upgrade compared to having nothing. Both are sidegrades with respect to one another though. Side armour and front armour are both upgrades over default armour, which is power you can buy with cash now.

But it isn't a major advantage, I'm more upset with people that can get hundreds of certs through lame gameplay.
It's not so much about how big the advantage is you can buy with cash now, it's about giving up an important principle to stay out of the p2w realm.
This game being Farmvilleside 2 is a discussion for another topic.

VaderShake

2014-07-02, 08:06 AM

Reality is that the video game industry is becoming "Pay 2 Save Time", there is no
real "Winning" in PS2 and no 1 person can become over powered and affect battles of hundreds of people unlocking an add on or weapon for a Max or any other class. It's silly to think so and if you do your an idiot.

Besides, in the FPS military arena what other games out there are pushing the envelope like PS2 is in the scope and vision of what they are trying to achieve?
**Spoiler Alert: NONE of them!!**

I'm not calling PS2 perfect but I really think some people here have lost perspective on the history of FPS's and what PS2 is trying to be. If nothing else I see SOE setting the table for a massive sequel someday that will be real-time battle across a planet on unprecedented scale of size, strategy, and player count. No other developer is even scratching the surface on that, but if you want to stay in the wash, rinse, repeat, 6,16,32-64 players fighting in the same repetitive small maps over and over and over again in 10-15 minute rounds then go play those games.

PS2 keep trying to do what your doing, yea it's not perfect but at least someone out there is trying.

ringring

2014-07-02, 08:11 AM

This is an overblown issue and imho there has been no significant change.

War Barney

2014-07-02, 08:17 AM

Reality is that the video game industry is becoming "Pay 2 Save Time", there is no
real "Winning" in PS2 and no 1 person can become over powered and affect battles of hundreds of people unlocking an add on or weapon for a Max or any other class. It's silly to think so and if you do your an idiot.

so its ok if I use god mode because just 1 guy being overpowered wont change a fight right? Its not ok for anybody to be overpowered just because its a game of numbers, it will still be unfair for the people who run into that person.

And the problem isn't paying to save time, thats ok it encourages people who don't have many hours a day to play to play anyway as they can unlock things they want and enjoy the game, the problem is it borders on pay to win and the closer they get the more likely they are to cross that line.

Also paying to save time has its flaws, it depends if you trust them to keep the integrity of the game while doing so. Now they are selling attachments for SC whats to stop them doubling or tripling the cert cost of said attachments, is that ok? you can still unlock them for free it just takes so long you'll be subtly encouraged to buy it with money instead.

And THAT is the real worry with games like ps2 when it comes to paying to save time... do you trust SOE to not fiddle the numbers so it takes an unreasonable amount of time to unlock stuff without paying?

Rolfski

2014-07-02, 08:40 AM

This is an overblown issue and imho there has been no significant change.
Do you have any idea how many raging discussions there are in the comment section of literally every article about this game?
The moment this game gets any media attention, whether it being a Levelcap video or an IGN article, the p2w discussion pops like a shit storm.

So in terms of game play the change might not be big, in terms of reputation it's certainly not an overblown issue. P2w is the no 1 topic people look at first when judging a f2p game.

ringring

2014-07-02, 08:58 AM

Do you have any idea how many raging discussions there are in the comment section of literally every article about this game?
The moment this game gets any media attention, whether it being a Levelcap video or an IGN article, the p2w discussion pops like a shit storm.

So in terms of game play the change might not be big, in terms of reputation it's certainly not an overblown issue. P2w is the no 1 topic people look at first when judging a f2p game.

Maybe so, whilst I do read every ps2 article I come across I rarely delve into the comments section because when I do the comments usually display ignorance or partisanship.

Right from the off of this game weapons can both be bought with station cash or through simply playing the game. As far as I can see there has been no change to the principle.

Personally I'd prefer a subscription model rather than a ftp one but that would be because of other reasons involving game design.

Crator

2014-07-02, 08:59 AM

Pay-to-Win, the big buzz word everyone typically uses incorrectly. I don't see this as pay-to-win even though some might. SOE needs to make money on the game though so let those that think it is pay-to-win complain. Does it really affect that many people that they simply don't play at all? Or do they try it out, regardless of what someone else says?

Mastachief

2014-07-02, 09:04 AM

It isn't pay2win and it's not harmful to the game. Any perceived advantage is marginal and is only for a matter of time if you compared player a and player b on a constant.

The moment you can buy a weapon that you cannot get free with certs within a reasonable time (or identically speced weapon) then you can bitch and whine with merit.

Unbunch your panties.

War Barney

2014-07-02, 09:08 AM

The moment you can buy a weapon that you cannot get free with certs within a reasonable time (or identically speced weapon) then you can bitch and whine with merit.

Thats the problem though, while this might not itself be pay to win yet its a step in that direction, if you can buy everything for SC it encourages SOE to increase the cert cost so people end up paying instead of grinding.

And you said "In a reasonable time", it takes a LONG time to grind out the upgrades for MAX attachments as its about 1500 for them all, what is your definition of reasonable time? What if they make all cert upgrades buyable with SC, you can get them all with certs but it runs into many 1000s to get them all, is that a reasonable time?

Mastachief

2014-07-02, 10:30 AM

Nothing in this game takes long to get the certs for.

By BR26 you are pretty much at a level where certs don't really matter too much in relation to your effectiveness.

This is a game part of the game is getting certs, but if you play the game with the main reason of gaining certs then this isn't the game for you.

If it takes a couple of weeks at a normal play level to cert out a second max arm, lvl 3 flak, few nibbles on timer and extended ammo thats fine with me (remember TR and VS don't need extended mags).

This is a free 2 play game that cost a hell of a lot to make and probably quite a lot per year to run. It has to make money, time is the biggest incentive to make people pay for their entertainment.

SOE imo have a sweetspot that they operate within and this game even with this new addition is well within that boundary.

There is no real power for sale here. Certainly nothing that some free2playscrub cannot earn within a few hours.

On a personal level, i have most things certed out and i'm subscribed. So my station cash mostly just collects dust as it increases each month. Theres nothing I want to buy right now, new weapons I pay for with certs (because i can). People might get tempted to waste SC on attachments.

I imagine the majority of the subscribers are at this sort of level, so people are probably canceling memberships. SOE need planetside2 to be profitable or it will lose even more staff and development will be switched to maintenence and eventually to nothing and the game put out to pasture as a cash cow just like the original. Difference here is the original was released finished with 12 maps and great mechanics so it defied logic and survived for 10 years. PS2 would be lucky to make 4 before the servers are not worth keeping.

Slackermagee

2014-07-02, 10:37 AM

If it there wasn't a balance problem before, with some players not having unlocked the 'right' attachments yet, then why is there a P2W balance problem now?

This isn't a big deal, it pay-to-skip-grind, much like memberships and boosts but less cost-effective and more direct.

Rahabib

2014-07-02, 10:40 AM

Personally, this move makes it easier for new players to be viable. The game is far to grindy for my taste anyway, this can eliminate some of that. I buy weapons only because it takes forever to unlock them.

The whole "side grade" argument is BS. There are definite weapons, unlocks, attachments that are upgrades. You can still grind it out to unlock, but its been pay to win since day one since it takes forever to do so.

VaderShake

2014-07-02, 11:00 AM

so its ok if I use god mode because just 1 guy being overpowered wont change a fight right? Its not ok for anybody to be overpowered just because its a game of numbers, it will still be unfair for the people who run into that person. I'm sorry I was unaware there was a GOD MODE and someone can be overpowered in this game? We all have access to the same stuff paid or certed unless your hacking? Are you? Are you hacking?

And the problem isn't paying to save time, thats ok it encourages people who don't have many hours a day to play to play anyway as they can unlock things they want and enjoy the game, the problem is it borders on pay to win and the closer they get the more likely they are to cross that line. I don't see how they can cross the line unless there is exclusive paid content that will impact a non-paying player and set them at a serious disadvantage which is simply not the case right now, let's cross bridges when we get there.

Also paying to save time has its flaws, it depends if you trust them to keep the integrity of the game while doing so. Now they are selling attachments for SC whats to stop them doubling or tripling the cert cost of said attachments, is that ok? you can still unlock them for free it just takes so long you'll be subtly encouraged to buy it with money instead. So if I just started playing a sport like basket ball I should start out playing with cheaply made no-name brand shoes from Walmart in order to protect the integrity of the game and not get better gear until I get better? Should I buy an unsafe crappy car (even if I can pay for a better one) to preserver the integrity of driving? Get with the times son, the industry has changed and will change again, come to terms.

And THAT is the real worry with games like ps2 when it comes to paying to save time... do you trust SOE to not fiddle the numbers so it takes an unreasonable amount of time to unlock stuff without paying? I played PS2 without a membership for 6+ months, I never felt anyone was OP or had an advantage, because I was not playing a TDM against other players, I was playing to capture objectives and work as a team to defend objectives. This is not COD, Halo, Quake, or the new Battlefield. I think your are thinking incorrectly about the game.

See comments in RED above.

Gimpylung

2014-07-02, 11:50 AM

Whether or not it's strictly p2w depends on the definition of p2w, which is a never ending discussion.

What's more important however is the perception of being p2w. Every single article around this game has always a big p2w discussion in the comments. And the most used argument in that discussion has always been that you could only buy side-grades, not upgrades in this game with cash. Killing off that argument is the same as throwing your non-p2w reputation out the window.

And now you have created another similar discussion and helped reinforce the perception.

There is so weapon or upgrade in this game that a free2player can't access. People are always looking at this Pay2Win argument from the wrong direction.

OMG, you can unlock something with money

versus

OMG, I can't access something without paying

The former is PS2, the latter is Pay2Win.

Osskscosco

2014-07-02, 11:52 AM

Paying for the lack of skill, i don't see a problem with that.

If you can rub together at least 2 brain cells then you will have enough certs to be useful in no time. If not then pay!

VaderShake

2014-07-02, 12:03 PM

And now you have created another similar discussion and helped reinforce the perception.

There is so weapon or upgrade in this game that a free2player can't access. People are always looking at this Pay2Win argument from the wrong direction.

OMG, you can unlock something with money

versus

OMG, I can't access something without paying

The former is PS2, the latter is Pay2Win.

Very nice summation, but you jsut know the P2W crowd will just say you don't understand and ramble on about the same misguided argument because they just don't get it.:lol:

ringring

2014-07-02, 12:13 PM

Thats the problem though, while this might not itself be pay to win yet its a step in that direction, if you can buy everything for SC it encourages SOE to increase the cert cost so people end up paying instead of grinding.

And you said "In a reasonable time", it takes a LONG time to grind out the upgrades for MAX attachments as its about 1500 for them all, what is your definition of reasonable time? What if they make all cert upgrades buyable with SC, you can get them all with certs but it runs into many 1000s to get them all, is that a reasonable time?
It doesn't take that long. I've got everything I want at present and I still have 4k unused certs.

And, who is going to get all of the attachments on all of the weapons? You get the ones you want and leave the rest.

War Barney

2014-07-02, 12:25 PM

See comments in RED above.

1. I was simply pointing out that your logic of its fine for people to be more powerful because theres lots of people in each fight doesn't hold up by using an extreme example.

2. Its very easy, they could make guns you buy for SC better or special upgrades you can only buy with SC. I didn't say they will I said this is a step in that direction which is why it worries some people.

3. I never said people should be at a huge disadvantage, if anything I'm all for them changing how the upgrades work so new players get at least level 1 of stuff for free, especially with vehicles like air its a huge disadvantage not having certain perks like the shield, flares, agility frame. My concern was simply that letting people buy everything for SC could encourage them to make things cost WAY more certs so you would need to spend weeks grinding for something that use to take a day so they make more money You need to learn to read and not jump to conclusions kid.

4. Again you seem to just be writing something based on what somebody else wrote, by this point I'm wondering if you read anything I put or are perhaps accidentally responding to somebody elses posts under mine. Could you point out where I said PS2 is a solo rambo game with no teamwork? or where I said people who pay are OP? No I said its POSSIBLE for it to happen, which is what people are worried could happen if they keep slowly moving in this direction.

So basically almost nothing you said actually correlated at all to anything I said. To try and sum it up in a simpler way as you obviously didn't understand me at all.

A. New system means paying to gain power. Power you can get for free though so while not a mortal sin still something some people are uncomfortable with.

B. If you can buy everything for SC, they MIGHT make everything cost more certs to purchase to encourage people to buy instead of getting things for free.

C. It all comes down to TRUST, do you trust SOE to keep a fair system where you can easily get things for free but can pay if you like?

Look at the new EA dungeon keeper, they let you pay to speed up mining but it would take 24 hours for 1 block without paying. To put it simply they made it completely unrealistic to play it without paying. If everything has a SC cost, it could end up like this, buying things with certs being unrealistic.

AGAIN!! IM NOT SAYING THATS HOW IT IS NOW I AM NOT!!! NOT!! NOOOOOOOOTTTTTTT SAYING THATS HOW IT IS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simply that its possible for them to go that way.

War Barney

2014-07-02, 12:34 PM

It doesn't take that long. I've got everything I want at present and I still have 4k unused certs.
.

Says the guy with 52 days of playtime....

I've been playing for a year with a 50% exp boost for 6 months of that and I've got 3 classes setup at this point, and even then by that I mean only 1 or 2 levels away from the max upgrade for most class upgrades as the last ones take 1000 certs to get which is about a weeks playing without a boost, and thats for me who has plenty of time to play, if you play 1 hour a day its probably a couple weeks or more to get 1000 certs.

You don't get every upgrade to every weapon but eventually you'll most likely buy every weapon and kit them out with attachments. What I meant was, does this mean if you buy a laser sight for SC, is it unlocked for every weapon on every faction? or is it just a class of weapons, say buy it for a LMG and you get all the LMG laser sights? cos if it is every weapon for every faction that is literally 1000s of certs you save for a single upgrade. Do this for every single attachment and you'll be saving perhaps up to 10k certs (this is a rough estimate, it could be more or less I've not done the math)

Timealude

2014-07-02, 12:40 PM

Do you have any idea how many raging discussions there are in the comment section of literally every article about this game?
The moment this game gets any media attention, whether it being a Levelcap video or an IGN article, the p2w discussion pops like a shit storm.

So in terms of game play the change might not be big, in terms of reputation it's certainly not an overblown issue. P2w is the no 1 topic people look at first when judging a f2p game.

Im not saying its a good decision but I dont really feel its pay to win, also from every comment section on any F2P game there are always people saying there is pay to win stuff, the older style MMO players absolutely hate f2p model as opposed to p2p model. another thing I have learned is that comment sections are a very horrible place since youtube got so popular :lol:

almalino

2014-07-02, 01:22 PM

As a casual player who plays may be 4 hours a week I am glad I can buy upgrades now. At least I would be happy to upgrade my NC MAX because it takes forever in my pace to get certs.

ringring

2014-07-02, 01:27 PM

Says the guy with 52 days of playtime....

I've been playing for a year with a 50% exp boost for 6 months of that and I've got 3 classes setup at this point, and even then by that I mean only 1 or 2 levels away from the max upgrade for most class upgrades as the last ones take 1000 certs to get which is about a weeks playing without a boost, and thats for me who has plenty of time to play, if you play 1 hour a day its probably a couple weeks or more to get 1000 certs.

You don't get every upgrade to every weapon but eventually you'll most likely buy every weapon and kit them out with attachments. What I meant was, does this mean if you buy a laser sight for SC, is it unlocked for every weapon on every faction? or is it just a class of weapons, say buy it for a LMG and you get all the LMG laser sights? cos if it is every weapon for every faction that is literally 1000s of certs you save for a single upgrade. Do this for every single attachment and you'll be saving perhaps up to 10k certs (this is a rough estimate, it could be more or less I've not done the math)

lol fair comment.

in this game the hard certs are the first ones. The ones you're trying to get when you don't really know what is going on. Once you do know it becomes a lot easier.

So yes I've got spare certs coming out of my ... ears and I've certed out every class and I've certed up every vehicle - even the classes and vehicles I never used. I've got guns galore, you might say I've run out of reasons to play.

Once you get experienced it's pretty easy. - and I'd say that is an indictment on the ambition of making the game noob friendly.

VaderShake

2014-07-02, 01:40 PM

1. I was simply pointing out that your logic of its fine for people to be more powerful because theres lots of people in each fight doesn't hold up by using an extreme example.

2. Its very easy, they could make guns you buy for SC better or special upgrades you can only buy with SC. I didn't say they will I said this is a step in that direction which is why it worries some people.

3. I never said people should be at a huge disadvantage, if anything I'm all for them changing how the upgrades work so new players get at least level 1 of stuff for free, especially with vehicles like air its a huge disadvantage not having certain perks like the shield, flares, agility frame. My concern was simply that letting people buy everything for SC could encourage them to make things cost WAY more certs so you would need to spend weeks grinding for something that use to take a day so they make more money You need to learn to read and not jump to conclusions kid.

4. Again you seem to just be writing something based on what somebody else wrote, by this point I'm wondering if you read anything I put or are perhaps accidentally responding to somebody elses posts under mine. Could you point out where I said PS2 is a solo rambo game with no teamwork? or where I said people who pay are OP? No I said its POSSIBLE for it to happen, which is what people are worried could happen if they keep slowly moving in this direction.

So basically almost nothing you said actually correlated at all to anything I said. To try and sum it up in a simpler way as you obviously didn't understand me at all.

A. New system means paying to gain power. Power you can get for free though so while not a mortal sin still something some people are uncomfortable with.

B. If you can buy everything for SC, they MIGHT make everything cost more certs to purchase to encourage people to buy instead of getting things for free.

C. It all comes down to TRUST, do you trust SOE to keep a fair system where you can easily get things for free but can pay if you like?

Look at the new EA dungeon keeper, they let you pay to speed up mining but it would take 24 hours for 1 block without paying. To put it simply they made it completely unrealistic to play it without paying. If everything has a SC cost, it could end up like this, buying things with certs being unrealistic.

AGAIN!! IM NOT SAYING THATS HOW IT IS NOW I AM NOT!!! NOT!! NOOOOOOOOTTTTTTT SAYING THATS HOW IT IS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simply that its possible for them to go that way.

You are just way over thinking everything.. See below.

There is so weapon or upgrade in this game that a free2player can't access. People are always looking at this Pay2Win argument from the wrong direction.

OMG, you can unlock something with money

versus

OMG, I can't access something without paying

The former is PS2, the latter is Pay2Win.

Speculation on "what if's" and "maybe" regarding SOE and their direction is worthless at this point. Speculation in the video game industry has never fared well.....just reference the hype about virtual reality and holograms in the 80's.

War Barney

2014-07-02, 01:52 PM

Its not worthless, personally I'm happy with this change as it allows casual players to enjoy the game more with less of a disadvantage for not spending hours a day playing, but at the same time I want to make sure SOE know they are walking a thin line now.

If they step over the p2w line it would drive away a lot of players and give the game a bad name so they need to be very carful.

And aye ring it does get easier when you level, even at this point while theres a lot I need I keep my certs above 1k easily enough (though I haven't bought any 1k cert upgrades yet, theres to many cheaper ones I need). However it doesn't change the fact that if you buy 1 laser sight an it unlocks for EVERY weapon thats a whole load of certs saved.

That said though, as I said right now I'm ok with this change in principle as it does help new players and casual players gear up quicker, I was more just arguing the point of how expensive it is for no real reason :P

Boildown

2014-07-02, 02:05 PM

Planetside 2 has always been a Free To Play game, and I'm fine with this. I do agree that the Max part is most troublesome, because 500 cert upgrades isn't as trivial as the rest, but in the end, I'm ok with it.

Perhaps it is Star Citizen that has helped me tighten my definition of P2W, but this is merely pay for progression and falls well short of pay to win.

Crator

2014-07-02, 02:38 PM

Pay-to-Progress Faster, not pay-to-win...

VaderShake

2014-07-02, 02:49 PM

Pay-to-Progress Faster, not pay-to-win...

I see it more as "Pay-for-more-options" no matter how many unlocks some players have they still may suck or not know how or when to use the options they have.

PS2 is all about situational awareness, strategy, & tactics. Not so much skill in a battle on the ground in vehicles or on foot, don't get me wrong there are skilled players out there but it's more an even fight.

IMO skill only really comes into play in PS2 if you are in the air....some pilots are simply amazing.

War Barney

2014-07-02, 04:04 PM

I see it more as "Pay-for-more-options" no matter how many unlocks some players have they still may suck or not know how or when to use the options they have.

PS2 is all about situational awareness, strategy, & tactics. Not so much skill in a battle on the ground in vehicles or on foot, don't get me wrong there are skilled players out there but it's more an even fight.

IMO skill only really comes into play in PS2 if you are in the air....some pilots are simply amazing.

I'm sorry but no it is pay for power, laser sight lets you have a better hip fire which can be the difference between life and death in many situations, darklight lets you see infiltrators, compensator lets you shooter further, silencer stops people seeing you on the mini map, its not options it clear boosts in your effectivness.

Likewise you can't deny a 50% reduction in explosion damage isn't a boost to your strength, or resistance to small arms, or upgraded jets to allow you to position better, or revive grenades to revive more people, or afterburner for mag to bypass walls and side step anything shot at you.

SOME of it is side grades but for the most part its very obviously upgrades.

BlaxicanX

2014-07-02, 04:11 PM

... all upgrades that you can get for free.

VaderShake

2014-07-02, 04:46 PM

I'm sorry but no it is pay for power, laser sight lets you have a better hip fire And gives away your positionwhich can be the difference between life and death in many situations, darklight lets you see infiltrators you can see them without a DL but it helps, also lowering your power by arming you with a pistol instead of your primary weapon, compensator lets you shooter furthernot what the compensator does, it helps with recoil, silencer stops people seeing you on the mini mapalso only for certain weapons and it limits their range as well, its not options it clear boosts in your effectivness. Each item you list is situational, which is my point, you can unlock items to give you more flexibility in certain situaitons but it comes with a price

Likewise you can't deny a 50% reduction in explosion damage isn't a boost to your strength,anymore I prefer using a grenade bandoleer instead of the armor to give me more firepower or resistance to small arms, or upgraded jets to allow you to position betterthey will help you stay up longer but you are also in the air longer as a target, again situational, or revive grenades to revive more peopleUnless you need other grenade types to help achieve your objective, again situational, or afterburner for mag to bypass walls and side step anything shot at you.Mag needs a further nerf LOL, I hate those things because you can miss under them, unlike the other factions

SOME of it is side grades but for the most part its very obviously upgrades. They are all situational, no matter which way you slice it, yes a player starting out with no side grades is limited but they can just buy them now instead of grinding

Again your being tunnel focused...

War Barney

2014-07-02, 05:22 PM

Again your being tunnel focused...

1. You get the bonus even without the light shining from what I've seen and its hardly a huge light especially compared to the hip fire accuracy...

2. You can hardly see them at all unless they sprint, hell when crouched they are now perfectly invisible so you can ONLY see them then with this light.

3. By shooter further I meant reducing recoil allowing you to shoot further.

4. Limits range sure but available on short range guns and the slight accuracy hit is worth it for not showing up on the mini map. nobody is going to be snipping with a SMG.

5. Its not just flexability its boosts to your effective strength with sometimes minor drawbacks, often so minor you don't notice them, list compensator making you more visible, its designed for shooting people further away so you don't care too much, same with silencer.

6. You preference doesn't stop 50% reduction in damage being a pure and simple strength boost, and more grenades is a simple strength boost.

7. Here you are really grasping at straws, you are in the air because you want to be in the air and generally want to do it as long as possible to climb buildings or reach a sunderer.

8. Yes mags are ridiculous, bypassing walls side stepping rockets, not being stopped dead by pebbles and the ability to boost out of a fight at breakneck speeds by far makes it the best tank.

9. They are not all situational, the weapon attachments are more so than the class cert options but even then its often an incredibly minor downside.

No I'm just point out that they are upgrades not sidegrades for the most part, as I said the weapon attachments have the strongest argument for being a side grade but the class upgrades are pure simple strength upgrades in every shape and form, same for the vehicles, they are pure and simple strength upgrades, hell until you upgrade your ESF chances are you wont stand a single chance against people who have the upgrades as they will easily maneuver out of your sights while constantly hitting you, and flares mean they don't worry about lock ons and you do.

Babyfark McGeez

2014-07-02, 06:14 PM

Imo this isn't any more or less "p2w" then selling weapons; you fork down cash to circumvent the grind.

Also i'm not surprised by this move, SOE is unbelievably lazy, or atleast uninspired, when it comes to monetizing this game. They could do so much with cosmetics and "rp" stuff (more heads, emotes/taunts, expensive exclusive items etc.), not to mention all the missing "services" (char transfer, name change etc.).

But apparently they don't want to put effort into this, making the game look cheap at times.

Edfishy

2014-07-02, 06:30 PM

Seems like whenever they add some new monetized cosmetic/rp stuff, there's just more bugs and complaints from the fanbase on "bigger priorities". I haven't played in a while, are the purchasable voice packs fixed yet? I thought I remember they were partially broken.

STOMPIE

2014-07-03, 02:57 AM

All this discussion of P2W is very interesting. Some points are valid and others more relevant than others. But all a good read.
I think War Barney’s point that items cert total could be increased by SOE is a very valid one. It’s a pretty sound business model: allow items to be bought with cash and see how successful it is, if it indeed meets or exceeds targets….raise prices or expand availability……scary thought for PS2.

As a person who has played all of 2 hours on Briggs, spent no money or certs, experienced a fraction of the continents, and is primarily a console player waiting for the release on PS4. If this option of “P2W” is available for PS4 players, I will most certainly be purchasing SC so that I can have an advantage, as small as it is. I can only imagine how my lack of map and objective knowledge will hinder me against other PC players that have made the switch. But not for too long….ill get the hang of it pretty quick I think.

FLAME SUITE ON:

My two most anticipated classes would have to be the LA and HA. They tend to match my current play style in COD…no I cant fly in COD but I am supper excited to do so in PS2.

BlaxicanX

2014-07-03, 03:23 AM

Everyone plays Heavy Assault, so I don't think anyone will hold that against you tbh.

Mordelicius

2014-07-03, 04:30 AM

From the patch notes (https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/update-notes-7-1.192112/):

"All infantry and MAX weapon attachments are now purchasable with Station Cash. Like the existing weapon optics, any attachment purchased with station cash will be unlocked account wide."

Meaning you can buy straight power/upgrades with cash now. Even Smedley admitted (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/29mj6c/woh_woh_woh_do_not_sell_weapon_attachments_for/cimeu1k): "For those of you using the slippery slope argument ok. I agree. It is a slippery slope."

Needless to say, this is a very bad direction for a game that has a reputation (http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/06/20/the-best-games-you-donat-have-to-spend-a-penny-on)to hold up for not being p2w.
Giving this game a bad p2w reputation, while there are still so many other revenue ways to exploit (name change/ server change tokens, anyone?) is not a smart move with a PS4 launch coming up.

The term "Pay-to-Win" started cropping up in the late 00s, when F2P MMOs were selling special gears/upgrades and buffs/enhancements in cash-shops that are not accessible in-game. That's why many of these MMOs started making these items tradeable in-game.

Back then, most pvpers dont' really mind, primarily because advantage can be offset with numbers. Remember, these are open world faction based pvp and not some instanced matches.

But the term stuck because everytime a new PvP MMO comes out, the posters in websites such as MMOSite, Youtube, etc. would be asking 'Is this game Pay2Win?"

Imo, it's not pay-to-win because all these are accessible with certs. Now, if they start selling exclusive gears/buffs (implants in Ps2) only available in the marketplace, then it would be. These things are available in-game to everyone. Some players want to buy it, some players want to farm/grind it.

Ruffdog

2014-07-03, 05:54 AM

BlaxicanX

2014-07-03, 07:28 AM

I agree.

And honestly, these days I feel like SOE is handing out XP boosts like fucking candy. Double EXP weekends, EXP buffs just from being in a squad with someone who's got a boost. Extra EXP from fighting on an alert (not just winning), extra EXP from fighting in a mission-assigned base.

Just by being logged in and playing the game, I often find myself having like 120+% exp gain at times.

Since I play as a medic predominantly, getting 100-200 certs a day is not at all difficult for me, no SC required.

VaderShake

2014-07-03, 08:07 AM

I'm finding with a demanding job and 2 young kids that time is a currency.
Giving players choice how to fund unlocks is a good thing.
If you're worrying about whether the laser guided smg carrier who killed you paid in time or cash then I envy you.
If it gets to cash only on anything, then go ahead and moan. I think camos are p2w personally.

Similar situation and time is a currency for sure.

On the Camo discussion there are a few camos that can be a bit confounding for each faction, but honestly I don't feel like I am at a disadvantage because of it and ultimately it's a wash.

If certain items become cash only, it would surely ruin the game. On a side note I have some station cash sitting in the bank but I have been using certs to purchase stuff the last few months because I am earning them so readily that it makes sense.

CmdAtino

2014-07-05, 09:26 AM

It honestly doesn't matter because this game has already been having a "pay to win" (more certs) option since the start. An option for people who either do not possess any patience, or people who have a job (hence more expendable income and less play time, which is fair game, it counter balances).

Either way, from the start, paying for a membership grants you almost twice, if not three times the amount of certs, members are also more or less all BR100, which skews the game a bit because BR50 free members out skill BR100 members who got their levels through their xp boost.

In the end it's fine, whichever way people want to play, right now I can't see the point of a membership other than ruining my own game experience by unlocking things way too damn fast and not getting to actually enjoying the game, what some people think is only obtainable through "grinding" is what provided me with hours and hours of fun in battles.
It's all a matter of perspective.

And on a game at the scale of PS2 anyways, who is going to notice the difference between a member who has spammed his certs into his libby's defense that he is impossible to bring down, or into scat maxes, or the compulsive spender who paid 3£ per arm on his scat max to get one extra clicky clicky and a bit more range. It isn't going to matter.

TL-DR; It doesn't matter if people can buy weapon attachments or cert upgrades, good for them, good for us because they overpaid for an item and it funds the game more whilst not giving them an upgrade we can't get from a few hours of good fun!
All I want is for the prices and "pay now" buttons to not be in my face, or in the face of a new player, who will start thinking this game is pay to win.

Hamma

2014-07-05, 03:55 PM

The game only becomes pay to win when you can only buy power via cash money and in no other way. Nothing changes, the stuff can still be purchased via freely flowing cert points (seriously when was the last time you ran out?) The only thing this does is get new players in earlier if they want to.

I know it's unpopular to sell things in a free to play game. But it costs money to run these games, they have to make money to keep giving people content and updates. Otherwise it just becomes PlanetSide 1 and dies in a few years.

Game's cannot be 100% free, there has to be a revenue source somewhere. More importantly a revenue source that is consumable. This is the reason for the implants.

Side note: Cut the crap on the personal attacks. Debate the game's features and functions, not each others personalities or tendency to have opinions.

MaxDamage

2014-07-05, 07:28 PM

Ghoest9

2014-07-05, 08:11 PM

It doesnt feel like play to win.

Its so easy to unlock the weapons attachments you need to be a good that this is a non-issue.

SixShooter

2014-07-05, 10:29 PM

BlaxicanX

2014-07-06, 01:20 AM

Yeah this is officially pay to win.
There is no way to claim otherwise now..
Such things are an instant advantage, not a mere lubricator like xp / resource boosts.

Don't even try to defend it, anyone who isn't already a fan of the game is not dumb enough to believe you and it makes you sound desperate and deluded.

I got that "ahh.. this is wrong" feeling when I saw it.
It's instinctive, dirty, nasty.

Like looking at photos of Frantastic on OKCupid.

What's the difference between being killed by a BR1 that has a silencer, red-dot sight and laser sight on his carbine and being killed by a BR100 that has a silencer, red-dot sight and laser sight on his carbine?

Nothing.

Tyluroth

2014-07-06, 02:10 PM

I disagree about buying upgrades being P2W. They still don't help you aim and make smart decisions. Yeah sure you can spam OMGWTFLOLNOOBPODS from your reaver all day long I guess. But these changes would not benefit a player like me overall. I can't aim for crap.

Badass Preacher

2014-07-06, 02:30 PM

I don't know about pay-2-win, but for me it's about principle. I still remember the promises that were made... "You will never be able to buy certs with money" and "time invested, is going to matter in this game". It's a slippery slope, and personally I don't like where it's headed.

MaxDamage

2014-07-06, 04:23 PM

What's the difference between being killed by a BR1 that has a silencer, red-dot sight and laser sight on his carbine and being killed by a BR100 that has a silencer, red-dot sight and laser sight on his carbine?

Nothing.

Wrong.

One of them (for the sake of argument) earned it.
The vast array of certification customisations are the result and reward of a players personal journey and choices. Their investment in the game.

If you can't understand why BR1 Captain Herpaderp jumping into a fight shouting "HEY GUYS IT'S A ME, HERPADERP! I AM LE PRO!" with a superior certed all-round character than a rank 75+ legit (F2P or subscriber) player who has invested time and money for the past year and a half to get where they are.. then maybe the combination of the three words "Pay To Win" are too complex for your mindtank to compute.

There has always been "progression" in the game, which was seperated from transactions (outside of weapon variants). The focus has been on EARNING it, as it should be.
This is MASSIVE.

May I recommend you despawn at the nearest matrix panel and have a techie ensure your DNA resequencing program hasn't been corrupted.

RSphil

2014-07-06, 04:29 PM

p2w being used in the wrong way again. it is not p2w as all this can be unlocked with certs but i do think it is a bad idea as i think certs are a waste of time now, the way this is going do you think they are going to get rid of certs. having all this available for SC is taking away from progression and a feeling of accomplishment.

they need to look at certs/progression again and stop making everything available for SC. i know they need to make money but there has to be a better way. i know its convenience and getting rid of a sort of grind but it lessens the reason to strive for certs
so you can get something cool or helpful.

BlaxicanX

2014-07-06, 04:49 PM

Wrong.

One of them (for the sake of argument) earned it.> Implying that getting certs is always an honorable process and you can't easily rack up enough certs to unlock all the attachments for a gun you want in a single one-hour session of Lib-farming spawns or doing other sleazy shit.

If you can't understand why BR1 Captain Herpaderp jumping into a fight shouting "HEY GUYS IT'S A ME, HERPADERP! I AM LE PRO!" with a superior certed all-round character than a rank 75+ legit (F2P or subscriber) player who has invested time and money for the past year and a half to get where they are.. >Implying that there is no such thing as a BR1 who might have another toon with three times the game-time logged that you or any "BR100MLGPRO36NOSCOPESWAG" player might have.

This is MASSIVE. No, it isn't. It's arbitrary nonsense, and it certainly isn't "pay 2 win". Pay 2 Win has a definition, you know. It's not some silly buzz word that an individual can shape to mean whatever they want it to mean. A pay2win system is explicitly a game in which there are in-game advantages that you can only acquire by spending money. No such system exists in Planetside 2. Your "stand-up-by-your-bootstraps" complaint has nothing to do with Pay2Win.

And it's nonsense anyway. Using your very logic, I guess subs shouldn't get monthly SC or passive cert bonuses, right? I mean after all, using *your* logic here, who "earned" that red-dot sight more, the guy who has no sub account cert-bonus and had to get 30 kills to make enough certs to afford that red-dot, or the guy who has a sub account cert-bonus and had to get 10 kills to make enough certs to afford that red-dot sight? You might say "they both had to at least play!" but it doesn't change the fact that one guy had to play a lot harder to get that red-dot. I guess it's Pay2Win, right?

No. No it isn't.

This is a video game, not a job, and not everyone is a happy-go-lucky college student with no responsibilities who can spend 10 hours a day playing this game to unlock everything. In a game which relies on having a massive a population at all times to function, manly pride takes a backseat to fairness, and in this case, the dude with a Monday-Friday 9-to-5 has just as much of a right to run around the battlefield with a decked out gun as you do.

No one's forcing you to spend money on these guns, and objectively, a BR1 with a red-dot sight on his gun isn't effecting your play-style anymore than a BR100 with a red-dot sight does, so why get jammed up about it? Do you, brother. Don't trip on what other people are doing.

AuntLou

2014-07-06, 05:22 PM

I wish they would just say "Yep sure it's pay to win and that is how it's going to be." Cause seriously why do you guys even care?

Play the game, it's freaken GREAT! Keep in mind they have to make money to keep it up. Pretty basic shit there guys. Whats the worse thing that can happen here? A new player gets a step up and doesn't get farmed for his first 30 levels?

Timealude

2014-07-06, 07:12 PM

Artalion

2014-07-07, 11:11 AM

Wrel posted a video on this that is very persuasive. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KGhCzylZos) He uses the term "P4C" or Pay for convenience to describe PS2 and I think P4C is more accurate than either F2P or P2W.

I think the give away that this isn't P2W is that you can use certs or SC to unlock. If Sony wanted to be shifty, they would offer different versions of the same equipment that would only be unlocked via SC. That's not what we're seeing. What we're seeing is that they've added another way to get the same thing.

Because it's just the same thing, a player that bought everything with SC instead of Certs isn't going to have a greater advantage on the battlefield. And that makes sense, because skill is more than just having a certed load out; it's knowing how to use it. In a similar manner, buying things with SC doesn't make you less of a player than if you did it with certs; because there is more to being a good player than just how you got your equipment.

I think that SOE has been very good about listening to player feedback and they know that we watch them like hawks. They need to make money in order to fuel development; so what they are doing is looking for the threshold between P4C and P2W; and they are using player feedback to judge when that threshold has been crossed.

This change doesn't cross the threshold in my opinion.

Mune

2014-07-07, 01:55 PM

The day that SOE adds in auraxium bullets that do more damage (or whatever) for SC is the day that we can start complaining (hint - they wont).

Nothing I've seen them allow be done with station cash has me crying foul. As was mentioned above (and in many other posts) they have a model where, if you want to, you can pay to speed up the experience gain/accumulation of stuff process. I see no problem with that.

If a new player wants to dump some cash into this game, support it's development, and get a little headstart instead of starting from scratch, then go for it I say. I will die to his rocket pods (or whatever) with dignity and a distinct lack of complaining, with little or no regard for what his battle rank might be.

As for the original post, I would like to point out that weapon attachments (excluding the MAX larger magazine ones AFAIK) have downsides as well, making them sidegrades. Popular sidegrades mind you, but a player without a forward grip enjoys a slightly faster equip time for example.

Mox

2014-07-08, 03:42 AM

Not pay to win if you can unlock it through gameplay tbh.

Pay to speed up progress, more like.
:rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:
Sir, thats just naive!

Gimpylung

2014-07-08, 08:12 AM

:rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:
Sir, thats just naive!

Explain why it's naive without the decorations if possible.

Bags

2014-07-08, 08:42 AM

So what I've gathered from this thread is that most people think if cash is involved it's p2w.

Gimpylung

2014-07-08, 09:13 AM

So what I've gathered from this thread is that most people think if cash is involved it's p2w.

Yeah, there seems to be a very knee jerk response to any revenue stream that isn't about cosmetics. Dunno how people expect this game to survive.

Do people think that a cert unlocked attachment is less powerful than the same attachment unlocked with SC or something.

Nothing is denied to a free player aside from some shiney stuff.

People going on about 'grinding' in this game amuses me too. Why are they even playing if they regard playing as a grind. I don't recall ever having to redo a 'kill ten rats' mission 2 dozen times to unlock some Magic Underpants of +1 Flak Resist

KesTro

2014-07-08, 11:45 AM

I personally don't understand all the people crying P2W either. You want an example of a pay to win game? Look up Hero Online or APB. THOSE GAMES, are p2w clear cut. Until a previous poster mentioned; you can buy clear upgrades with SC and 'not' certs than this game will not be pay2win. For a lot of people it may be frustrating to see those with disposable income purchase everything but let's be honest, they already were 8 months ago. What's the difference now, honestly? A couple hundred certs that you can make in a day with how much XP SOE just throws at your face?

obuw

2014-07-09, 01:43 PM

I find it amusing that some people think being able to buy some cheap useless attachments that practically have no benefit with SC suddenly makes the game pay2win.

The game IS pay2win. Has been that way since the beginning.

1- Vehicle weapons. Tank and aircraft secondaries are practically mandatory and more than double your firepower. All cost 750-1000 certs.

2- Ridiculously powerful "sidegrades" like pump action shotguns and SMGs, 450 damage revolvers. All cost 1000 certs.

3- Dark Camo that makes you 75% harder to spot.

4- Worst pay2win of all: membership bonuses + resource boosts, giving you infinite resources, allowing you to throw grenades and spam maxes nonstop.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not complaining. They have to make money through something. And I don't feel forced to spend money on the game to stay competitive. But anyone who claims the game is not pay2win is just kidding themselves.

If anything, being able to purchase attachments with SC makes it less pay2win imo. I'd rather have some fool spend his SC purchasing useless attachments for his gauss or carv, rather than purchase lolpods, a smg, black camo or a pump action shotgun.

alisagreen

2014-07-14, 02:42 AM

Yes, which was the case with the IP they "adapted" over time as well, because they didn't get enough money out of the cosmetic sales.
http://www.***********/

MaxDamage

2014-07-14, 09:26 AM

Under "Secrets:
http://1.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/67/18/152a625daa8c162a60104714d0c63207-gaming-then-now-part-2.jpg

Natir

2014-07-16, 12:54 PM

So what I've gathered from this thread is that most people think if cash is involved it's p2w.

Umm no.

SOE, from the start of PS2, has implemented ways to completely skip progression and allow you to unlock weapons immediately, if you wanted to with money. The resource system with the boosts is awful close to pay to win as it allows you to endlessly use up more resources than a free player. Even with the implants, SOE introduces the worse possible scenario and then tones it down a tiny bit and just allows you to purchase them with certs... and allows them now drop at an even slower rate than when they were introduced. Funny how over the patches, implants drop fewer and fewer (same thing with charges). SOE even now allows you to purchase all types of attachments for for money. These are not side-grades, they are direct upgrades to the stock version and for anyone that argues that, well, you shouldn't be in this argument because you are just being ignorant and arguing for the sake of argument at that point.

What SOE has done is test the waters to see how their cash grab schemes work. If it is successful, try something else. People don't like that idea, implement something else but change it a little bit. This resource buying will be going in, but they will allow you to buy it with certs as well and maybe change it up a tiny bit. They are right on the edge of the line of the early definition of pay to win.

What is next? Buy full loadouts or buy certification packages and become a BR100 when you are a BR1? Can't let you buy certs with certs now can you? Well, you could gamble and buy a box of random certs for some certs I guess...

In every argument I have seen here with this "P2W" argument and most on Reddit, just use the argument of "I'm BR100, if a new player wants to skip everything let them." So, is that what the free players think who are new or are still unlocking most of their class? I don't think so. A lot of people are stuck in this entitlement bubble where because they have progressed to such a point, they just don't care about the normal progression of what a MMO is supposed to be about. This is a MMOFPS where there is not much in the way of new growth. These schemes SOE keeps doing does not help that as well.

With these schemes and the overwhelming majory of PS2 players being veterans, they feel obligated to throw down a bunch of money to stay competitive and that is not something a new player should have to do and most simply do not do that so they just quit. If that goes on, this game will never bring new blood into the game. This game is supposed to be free to play, not subscription or box priced. What SOE is doing is essentially slowly adopting a SW:TOR business model piece by piece. They are slowly forcing you to throw down money in order to stay competitive with the next guy. That is not a true free to play business model like what everyone thought it would be when Higby and Smedley talked about their business model. Weird how over time that changes... If only they could be releasing more content on a regular basis then maybe they wouldn't have to do these quick cash grabs for a financially troubled company.

obuw

2014-07-24, 11:36 AM

The resource system with the boosts is awful close to pay to win as it allows you to endlessly use up more resources than a free player.

But the game has already been like that since launch. I see these videos all the time where someone with a massive resource bonus from membership / boosts just casually tosses 3 frag grenades (or worse; concussion aka IWIN grenades) around corners every chance he gets. Or LA's that randomly toss bricks of C4 everywhere just to kill a single person. Or all those people who use medkits nonstop, everytime they take a sliver of damage. Or engies / infils that drop proxy mines everywhere every time they respawn.

Now that I think more about it, I'm getting a feeling that maybe it's the members complaining about this change. Right now the game is a level playing ground for people with memberships + boosts. With the nano refill they will be outclassed by cash whales who can pour infinite money into the game. They don't like the idea of no longer being at the top of the food chain.

Ghost Runner

2014-07-24, 10:21 PM