Pheonix fix. Already posted in Official.

[Headrattle]

I already posted this in the official forums, but I thought I would run it by you guys. You tend to flame a lot less.

I know many people are complaining about the decimator, while others defend it.
What about this?
The NC has the "harder hit" philosiphy and the Pheonix doesn't seem to fit into that in my opinion all that much. So in order to make the teams a little more even what if we make the Decimator the NC weapon as well as reloadable. And make the Pheonix Common Pool, as well as single shot (or only a few shots) only.

Keep the strenght of the weapons the same. This way every infantry has the option of having the pheonix because of it's wicked anti air capabilities as well as their reloadable empire AV weapon. The Decimator would still do the most damage, but it isn't lockable (not sure, haven't used it.) The Lancer should be a little more accurate, and the striker can lock and can shoot more missiles.

Well what do you think?
http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/betapls/Forum1/HTML/000999.html

[Navaron]

No one would ever go outside. Ever.

[Vash]

No. Just... no.

[Headrattle]

Uhh, but it is only one shot.
It is either that or nerf the Pheonix all together. You wast your Pheonix and you have no other possibilities.

Well, I guess if you camped an AMS you could "Pheonix spam"

[simba]

Pchylophysey?
Theres no such thing �s a pchylophysey,
its like
uhhhh our empire has the FIRE FAST and u will kill many ppl pchylophysey thingie! Omg.
Our empire has the high accurate low recoil pchylophysey pchylophysey! thats just boneshit.
Good idea headrattle, it is

[Headrattle]

Simba.
What?

[Prowler]

mmmmmmmm no. :o

[Vash]

The world may never know, Headrattle... :huh:

Anyway, I still say leave it as it is.

The Decimator doesnt have the homing capability of the Striker, and obviously travels slower than shots from the Lancer.
Not to mention how inaccurate the thing is at any range...

As it stands, NC is all about stand-off weapons. Our close-range abilities suck (stupid jackhammer..). We need all the help we can get in softening up the badguys before they flood through the doors. Giving everyone access to the phoenix would be a slap in the face :p

[Headrattle]

Ohhh alright.
Sorry. I like the NC and more people seem to be playing the NC because of that damn weapon. I don't want another AWP and it looks like it might be one. Limiting it to one shot and leting everyone have the chance to use it (maybe another cert?) seemed like an answer.

I personally don't have a problem with it. But then I am NC.

[Vash]

It is pretty powerful in the right hands, but I doubt it'd become another AWP.

Remember when you're flying the missile, you're a completely helpless. You cant see your character, you cant see your health or armor bars, you cant even hear yourself getting hit or see a warning in chat. So you have to be in a *very* safe spot to use it. I've been sniped more times than I care to count because I used it out in the open :p
It also doesnt seem to turn as tight as Striker missiles, and since it has to be flown manually, there's always the factor of human error.

Also, it's already been nerfed. When I first started playing, the thing had an 8-second flight time. Then it was dropped to 5 seconds (which was a good call, imo).

I think it's fairly well balanced, at least to the Striker... with that thing you can have all 3 of your rockets in the air and guide them while running around or reloading. Very handy for fighting MAXes and dodging that Harasser :)

[Hamma]

There is nothing wrong with the phoenix now. It's much better balanced than it was a few weeks ago, when you would see 5 NC soldiers sitting behind a mountain attacking infantry.

[Headrattle]

Well if you guys think it is balanced.
Screw it, it is balanced. I guess I was intimidated by all of the complaints in the main beta board.

Thanks for your imput though.

[EarlyDawn]

Uh, I haven't played yet, but from what I read on the beta boards, isn't that the problem now?

[Ginzue]

Well I like the change, Im tired of all thoses NCs constantly :spam: ing that they are |337 becacuse they get somthing that they think is the best thing since the Redeamer. I also think the Decimater is more NC stile, big ,dumb and powerful.

[Hamma]

It was completly horrible 2 or so weeks ago, when I actually stopped playing one night because it was destroying my experience.

[Venoxile]

I don't care as much about av weapons as much as the anti infantry weapons. Is the chaingun as overpowered as some say it is indoors? Is the gauss as overpowered as some say it is outdoors?

[Navaron]

I know people who have just quit playing all together because the chaingun makes it impossible to cap a base from tr.

[Headrattle]

Hmm, see, stuff like that scares me.
I want PS to be successful so I can waste many an hour and doller to the Sony World Domination plan.
If the weapons aren't even that won't happen and we won't become slaves to the hive mind that is Sony. And Sony needs our help to defeat Microsoft.

Anyway. Anyone been seeing a Vanu weapon that is over used and scary?

Oh, Ginzue. That is what I thought. If everyone has teh ability to use a weapon that everyone seems to be complaining about. The empires would be more even. Making it a one shot weapon would decrease it's use.
And the NC seems like they would use the Decimator for those exact reasons.

[Venoxile]

Yeah, if it's impossible to cap bases from tr or defend bases from tr no way in hell am I buying this game... But that's just me.

[mr_luc]

Originally posted by Headrattle
I want PS to be successful so I can waste many an hour and doller to the Sony World Domination plan.
If the weapons aren't even, that won't happen, and we won't become slaves to the hive mind that is Sony. And Sony needs our help to defeat Microsoft.

That is a truly brilliant post. Definite sig material.

:)

[mr_luc]

Follow-up post:

But, I say leave the Pheonix as is. I like having things like the Pheonix and the TR MAX and the TR minigun to go up against -- I like the fact that they are CONSTANTS, that I will always have to budget for them and watch out for them and develop strategies to beat them, that if I face those things I will always have an uphill battle.

Just like if you run into me in Vanu MAX armor, and we're 1 on 1, I will 0wn your ass. Well, maybe. I haven't played yet, but it's entirely possible.

[Lexington_Steele]

Ballance between the TR and the NC is pretty damn good.

The TR own close range and indoors with their minichaingun. NC own long range and outdoors with their phoenix.

The only faction that may need adjustment is VS.

[�io]

The only weapons i would say need changing now would be

Lancer : Sucks as an AV weapon, it takes like 4 secs to shoot one single shot and it's not all that amazing, the other AV weapons are alot better.

Pulsar : Not too sure on this, apprently they already changed it not too long ago, i haven't tried it again yet

Minigun : I think anybody in beta agrees it's way too friggin powerful, 1 or 2 guys can easily clear a room with it.

Gauss : Again not sure, i've only been up against said weapon a few times and so far i'm 50/50, but i know many people complain about it.

And the main beef i have is once again the VS getting screwed, this time in the form of their MAX. Now i can accept that it can get killed pretty easily by infantry, it has low armor we all knew that. I can even accept the more or less crappy weapons they have, again we all expected the VS to have less powerful weapon. But can someone PLEASE explain to me how making the MAXs get damaged by using their ability is balanced?!?!? A TR can clamp and become a death trap no problem, a NC can power up the shield and save his life with again no problem, a VS MAX uses his jumpjets to jump over a base wall or avoid enemies and loses health. I mean seriously the jumpjets do more harm than good if you use them for anything other than invading a base. They really should take that off. :mad:

[Airlift]

Originally posted by Venoxile
I don't care as much about av weapons as much as the anti infantry weapons. Is the chaingun as overpowered as some say it is indoors? Is the gauss as overpowered as some say it is outdoors?

No, and no. People are whiners by nature and you are doing yourself a disservice if you assume there is any credibility to it. You should definately look into this yourself, but here's a specific example that relates to Planetside.

When I was first starting in the beta, I was told how shatty the shotguns in the game are. Many a complaint was being aired about how much the jackhammer sucks and the sweeper wasn't even worth using. So, I tested those next to last (still haven't checked out the AA Max, prolly never will). Here's how it breaks down in my opinion

The Jackhammer is a good weapon and can be quite devastating under the right circumstances, but it isn't worth 4 cert points. Any NC who takes a heavy cert is most likely doing it for looting rights on a chaingun (or a lasher, which definately qualifies as a scary VS weapon imo).

On the other hand, I really really like the Sweeper. As a bonus to your 2 point Medium cert, you are getting an excellent interior weapon. It is a lot less useful to TR, because the Cycler is already optimized for CQB. However, it compliments the ranged capibilities of the Gauss quite nicely.

I think the Phoenix is cheesy, but it would be a lot less so if it was 1-3 shot disposable rather than being a reloadable weapon. Frankly, since I'm planning to spend most of my time as a cloaker, I don't care much. If I'm flying a Galaxy (or an AMS) and the rocketeers (or anyone else really) find me, I already have big problems even if they're throwing bricks. When I'm driving a wraith, you'll probably never hit me with that missile.

[Led]

The chaingun is unbalanced in the semblance that one on one, a chaingunner will, at close range, waste anyone else. Most of the time this is true.

THIS IS WHY YOU BRING TWO PEOPLE.

Durrrrr

:D

[Deadlock]

i aint been in beta but from what i hear, three weapons need fixin otherwise im worried... the chaingun for the tr, and the gauss and jackhammer for nc (even though i am going to be nc i still want it to be fair)

oyeah, i guess they could beef up the vanu weapons too :rolleyes: but lets prioritize here

so lets just hope this new patch u lucky beta bastards are getting this week sometime will have these problems fixed.

[Vash]

The only circumstance in which the Jackhammer is good, is when your target is two or less arm-lengths away :(

The Sweeper is much better though... it's spread seems much tighter than the jackhammer.


Unfortunately, I think it might be pretty tricky to strike a nice balance with the mini chaingun. Currently, it pretty much gives those in the more versatile reinforced armor the firepower of an AI MAX.
Obviously it needs some tweakage... maybe in the form of greater spread or slightly reduced damage per bullet. Not too much though, I dont think anyone wants it to be as 'devastating' as the jackhammer :p


And just to be fair, it might not be a bad idea to slow down the turn rate on the Phoenix. Right now it's not very hard to fly circles inside the walls of a base. This could also give infantry and MAXes cought in the open a greater chance to evade the thing.

[Hamma]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
I know people who have just quit playing all together because the chaingun makes it impossible to cap a base from tr. Thats only because the jackhammer sucks and needs some lovin

[Matuse]

The basic balance principle involved here:

1. Can you imagine anyone NOT using the weapon?

2. Can you imagine anyone using the weapon outside of exceedingly limited circumstances?

The chaingun is broken because of 1...if NC and VS people are taking heavy assault just to loot and use a terran weapon, THERE IS A PROBLEM THERE.

The jackhammer has a problem because of 2.

Empire balance with their specific weapons does mean that some empires need to be stronger in certain areas than others. I have no problem with this. But when the game revolves around specific scenarios (base capping), and one empire is completely dominant in those scenarios (chaingun), it is not a micro-balance, it is an enourmous problem.

If light weapons are being made to have little-to-no effect on vehicles (excepting the MAX, I would assume), that might be a useful balance. It never made much sense to me that you could shoot at a MBT with a rifle and eventually kill it...you could take a M-60 machinegun and fire 40,000 rounds at a bradley or abrahms, and you wouldn't do much more than chip the paint.

[Airlift]

i aint been in beta but from what i hear, three weapons need fixin otherwise im worried... the chaingun for the tr, and the gauss and jackhammer for nc (even though i am going to be nc i still want it to be fair)

With all due respect, I contend that what you hear is incorrect based on my experience. The Minichain and the Gauss are both dangerous weapons in their element, but they are not broken. The squads I've been in have butted heads with the Terrans many times, and when I was a Terran on the staging server I went up against the NC heavily. I've used both weapons and had both weapons used against me, and I don't feel either one of them needs to be changed significantly.

I also don't think the Jackhammer needs to be improved. However, I also am not going to ever use the Jackhammer again (and based on current opinion in STFU, it looks like we're going NC in release).

As far as the Vanu are concerned, I would be all about looting the Pulsar off corpses if they would make 1 change: Silence. The Pulsar is the weakest of the Factional Mediums. It has a bright tracer that gives it away when fired. However, it would be extremely cool as a silenced weapon, because you could use it in a base without tipping off the nearby rooms and floors to your position.

Then I would take the vanu pistol and make it really quiet. I wouldn't go with silent because Stealthers shouldn't be able to used silent ranged weapons, but I would make it nearly so just to improve the commando aspect that runs so central to the vanu.

[Deadlock]

well, hopefully ill win a beta spot wed. and i can actually play the game and either a) argue with u or b) agree with u... but until then, i tip my hat to u :D

[Vash]

Definately, Airlift... neither weapons need any significant changes.

In my opinion, the Jackhammer just needs to have some kind of mid-range chokes installed.

As for the chaingun, the more I think about it the more unsure I get about what it might or might not need :confused:
It's effective range/accuracy is probaby just fine... maybe just reduce it's damage enough to require ~4-5 more bullets to kill reinforced armor? That wouldnt be much considering it's ROF, but maybe just enough to make it feel like you didnt just get stomped by a MAX :p

[�io]

Someone comment on my thoughts about VS MAX dammit!! :mad:

:p

[Airlift]

It is goofy that the VS max takes falling damage from its own jumpjets, especially when the technology exists to allow you to freefall out of a galaxy and take no damage. However, the VS AI MAX could be the most dangerous thing in the game to enemy bases. Only in skilled hands.

[Duilin]

Stop trash talking the AWP... I hate it when people do that, play in big leagues, it isnt as easy to use and hard to avoid as you people think. =\

[Venoxile]

I'm not in exclusive beta, and by all means ignore this post, but would a good idea for the jackhammer be to make it more like the ai scattercannon nc max? But instead of giving it the short (large spread), medium (medium spread), and long (small spread) options, just give it the short and medium options of fire.
Just an idea. Probably a very bad idea...

[Headrattle]

Originally posted by Duilin
Stop trash talking the AWP... I hate it when people do that, play in big leagues, it isnt as easy to use and hard to avoid as you people think. =\

Me?
I use the G3 Love that gun. You cannot deny that it takes more skill. Problem is that the AWP is a one shot one kill and is really reallyy accurate.
If it was only accurate when kneeling it wouldn't be a problem. If it was more expencive then it wouldn't be a problem.

It is simply used too much for anyone to say it is "Balanced" compaired to the other sniper rifles. After round 6 you might find three or four AWPs running around. For a sniper rifle, that is too many.
I can kill an AWP. But I have to have another AWP or a Sig/Styr. The G3, scout, and Autosniper are just hard to use and worthless when compaired to the AWP.
Tell me, when was the last time you saw one of those guns use on a map that the AWP wasn't banned?

[Duilin]

I dont really play much on pubs anymore... so I cant answer about when AWPs are banned on servers.

Any decent person can use a M4/AK and go head to head with an AWPer... assuming your not completely in the open or too close.

[Led]

VS maxes eat rockets just like the rest of them.

I love midairing the buggers :D

[Robot]

Originally posted by Led
VS maxes eat rockets just like the rest of them.

I love midairing the buggers :D

JUMPJET TO VICTORY

[Irnbru]

aight so far i use Cycler and Striker all the time, and i do really well. I solo MAXs like nuthin with 4 missiles and most troops get dropped fast at range or close up by cycler. Only thing that annoys me is putting 25 bullets in a guass-user and have him hit me 10 times and i die. But that's all part of the balance. I would take a Striker over a Phoenix any day. i have no problem running around in the open taking down reavers and tanks.

the fact that every single NC has a phoenix or sniper rifle gets old tho ;)

VS suck. BAD.

[Robot]

VS doesn't, "suck," persay, it just needs a little balancing

Like giving the weapons an actual advantage besides, "versatility."

[Warborn]

The Gauss rifle needs its accuracy nerfed slightly. I don't care what you say, outdoor battles are a big part of the game, and "being good up close with a mini-chaingun" won't do a hell of a lot if you're mowed down by Gauss before you can even get within reasonable firing range with the mini-chaingun.

[Mazuli]

Give all VS cloaking when they are wielding the knife. Yay VS is mobile!

[1024]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
No one would ever go outside. Ever.

He's right. No matter waht you say, he's right.

[LLMerc]

I just wonder what will happen when the jackhammer is fixed, and sudenly NC has a balanced close range capability with a vastly unbalanced long range one ...

[LesserShade]

^That's what I'm wondering too. As it stands it seems that TR and NC are pretty balanced. The worst thing in the world is having to storm those damned NC towers where the phoenix missles are being fired from inside the top floor door and the snipers and gauss users keep you from getting remotely close.

It all works out when you finally DO get inside because then it's just a frag fest so long as they don't have an AI max running around.

Anyway, as far as the phoenix goes, while it's great for stand offs, I wouldn't trade my striker for it ever. The striker as it stands absolutely nullifies any air threats with little to no effort from me, calling a reaver a "minor annoyance" would be a gross exaggeration. At medium range outside MAXs are striker fodder, especially VS max when they jump because it's easier to get lock then :/

[Anarion]

the beta boards with respect to arguements over this kind of thing are getting sad.. It's just a horrendous snipe fest, and even some of the more insightful posts are turned into so much whining.. On both sides.. Pheonix lovers and haters are guilty of the exact same behaviour.. I notice here, its much more civilized, but I expect more quality here, so its not surprising.. I've toured through all the factions so far, and have seen the good and bad of both..

1) The Vanu are in need of help, and the devs know that, and are certainly looking to bring them up to speed in certain areas, which can only be a good thing..

2) Gauss.. I've played more NC than the other factions, so I've had more experience with this one than others.. Generally I don't think its overpowered, but having being shot BY it as well, I'll admit its range could be pulled back a bit, or even dull the accuracy at extreme ranges a bit..

3) Chaingun/Pheonix arguements..

Ok firstly, all this talk about EVERY NC having one is a lie.
All this talk about EVERY TR having a CG is a lie..
That or you've bought solidly into the hype that's going on in the beta boards..

Yes, many do use them, but not everyone, not even close.. Last night on Lagssor, big fight over an NC facility.. Terrans overrun it..
I actually went around and counted after all the whining that went on in the beta boards. 7 NC had pheonixes, out of 28 that I counted on the ground and walls.. Definitely NOT everyone..
Same thing goes for the terrans.. Sure, the first few through the gates has chainguns, but not everyone.. In fact it seemed that maybe the first 4-6 terrans had chainguns, followed in by MAXs, and light troops with cyclers..
I can guarantee more NC and TR had bolt drivers in that fight than had chainguns and pheonixes combined..

As people have been saying here already so far those two factions are pretty well balanced.. The long distance mauling NC may give the TR, is certainly equalled out by the close range slapping you give the NC once we get up close and personal..

On top of that, there's another thing that's always bothered me about the whole "pheonix sucks" debate.. One of the times I've used the pheonix was guarding an air tower from the roof (near Honsi I think..).. Sure enough a lone Terran MAX comes bounding across the bridge.. 1, 2,3, 4 missles let go in succession, dead MAX just as he gets to the door.. Unfair! I hear you say.. Sure enough same MAX comes bounding across the bridge a few minutes later from the west.. 1,2,3,4, dead again.. Granted at this point I'm out of missles but rearming isn't an issue.. This scenario happens 3 times before it stops, and tactics change..
Sure enough I look North of the tower and there's a huge hill with trees ringing the bottom.. Cross the bridge as a MAX and veer right you head straight for the tower through relatively open ground, left, you head around the hill, can go over it and then through the trees to the tower.. In a situation like this, is it still that the pheonix is so bad, or that the MAX player isn't thinking?

The pheonix may be the AWP of planetside (though "Pheonix as AWP" is a misnoemer, as it doesn't kill with one shot), but that makes the chaingun the "SOF2 style Autoshotty" of planetside.. And both could be considered unbalanced for different reasons.. Personally I think they're both balanced just fine, and I certainly don't bemoan the TR's abilities to storm/hold a base once they're frimly entrenched with their heavy weapons..

My opinions only of course, but I think people are carrying the whole arguement to inane heights on the beta boards..

[LesserShade]

^good points.

Overall I don't think it would be a bad idea if AV weapons were 4 point certs like Heavy. That would cut down on phoenix and striker use which I think is important.

Well, we've heard enough complaints about phoenix artillery use, so I wont delve into that subject.

As far as the striker goes (this is a point that PecosBill has brought up on the beta forums recently). Two TR with strikers outside a base essentially turn that bases entire SOI into a no-fly zone. This makes the AA Max completely pointless. Why anybody would spend 2 cert points for an AA max that doesn't really accomplish anything because for 1 more cert point they could have a semiautomatic homing death rocket that can level anything in the air way more effectively then the max, it can do it in reinforced armor so it can carry a cycler or even a chaingun for infantry purposes, and the missiles also lock on to turrets, vehicles, and MAX.

I think the 4 point cost for the chaingun makes a lot of people like myself shy away from using it. The AV cert however is very strong for TR and NC, 3 of my characters are certed in AV for instance.

As always, the VS need work.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by LLMerc
I just wonder what will happen when the jackhammer is fixed, and sudenly NC has a balanced close range capability with a vastly unbalanced long range one ...

If the Jackhammer sees a significant improvement, then the Phoenix should take a nerf.

If the Minichaingun take a nerf, then the phoenix should take a nerf.

The Phoenix should not take a nerf with no adjustment to hte Heavy assault weaponry.

P.S. I would have no problem seeing the AV weaponry cost 4 cert points.

[Anarion]

I would see no problem with making a weapon like the pheonix more expensive cert wise, make you think twice about how much you really use it... Which also brings up another small point, one reason so many people use these weapons is that everyone in beta has been starting at BR10.. Technically I can see 100 terrans cross a hill, quit, relogon, create a new character with a pheonix and be back in in under 10 minutes.. If you have to pay to play, or work your way there from scratch, you may be less likely to jump at it because now you can't instantly have it anymore..

still bringing the pheonix in line with the chaingun certcost wise seems only fair..

Originally posted by LesserShade
^good points.

Overall I don't think it would be a bad idea if AV weapons were 4 point certs like Heavy. That would cut down on phoenix and striker use which I think is important.

[Headrattle]

Originally posted by Anarion
Which also brings up another small point, one reason so many people use these weapons is that everyone in beta has been starting at BR10..

very good point there man. Maybe because they have the chance to do anything they want means they spam the pheonix or chaingun.

Lets wait and see what happens when everyone starts at level one