NC just doesn't understand

[LLMerc]

I guess NC fanboys are afraid of loosing the edge that they currently have. I don't blaim them. So whenever someone screams nerf the phoenix, they cry out against it. They will say how the chaingun is overpowered or how the jackhammer sucks, how they SHOULD be better at long range etc etc.

What they need to realise is the jackhammer WILL be fixed, eventualy. In it's current state it's too useless not to fix. Hell, I'll scream at the devs if they don't. It sure is not worth the 4 points. So when that fix happens, what about the empire balance?

They will own at long range and at short range.

Now, I will say I'm a TR fanboy. So my opinions are biased. But here they are.

Chaingun is not overpowered. It is just unbalanced. By that I mean it is worth the 4 cert points but it's not worth say ... 5. WHat needs to happen is the jackhammer needs to be worth 4 aswell. The lasher is prety good but could use some more work.

Gauss is much better than the other 2 medium empire specific weapons. I'd like to see some of it;s acuracy lost. The pulsar still needs work.

The phoenix needs to have a line of sight limitation. It is the ONLY acurate weapon that does not. That is a huge advantage for the NC. It makes it VERY precise, and opens up very cheesy tactics.

(20 TR defend an AMS, NC can't even get close to it, 3 NC soldiers grab phoenixes and take out the AMS without any work, shooting from the safety of the base. TR or VS would have to go through the defences first. )

Lancer (event though it sucks) and phoenix can be used against infantry, Base turets etc etc. Striker will not lock onto a turet, will not lock onto infantry, has a HUGE COF when fired dumb fire, and it will not lock onto a max while it is on a tower balcony or tower wall. Lancer and phoenix do not have this problem. Striker will also not lock onto anything if being fired from the tower balcony (other than high flying aircraft). Add to that that even if it does lock, it will not keep lock if something obscures your sight, INCLUDING another infantryman, for just a brief second, while the missile is in flight. Thus, your locked on missile becomes bumd fire just because the left pinky of that max you HAD locked on is no longer visible. So ....

Work needs to be done to balance the empires. Phoenix is my MAJOR beef with the game, and as some people said, I will not buy the game if it stays as is. You can say "So don't buy it then" all you want. I'm not trying to scare anyone with my statement, I'm sure Sony will have plenty of other people buy it. I just say it to bring across to you just how strongly I feel the phoenix needs a fix. However, I will also not buy the game if Vanu are not given some sort of a boost (mainly lancer and pulsar) and if the jackhammer does not get a significant boost.

Fact is, NC used to kick ass because of their numbers. They still do, and they are even with the TR. You can't tell me a secret e-mail went around to all the good players of all the FPS games saying they should join the NC. The skill level of the players is prety even I would say. SO it only leaves one explanation.

Anyways, my bitching and whining sesion is over.

Flame on

[Fire_Monkey]

Interesting suggestions. Although I haven't got my CDs so...

[LesserShade]

The striker does lock own to base turrets IF you can magically get a lock. I swear I've heard all the explanation for why you can put it on secondary fire and it might not be able to home in on a target, but when you are talking about phalanx and spitfires it is like winning the lottery if you pull the gun out and your reticle turns red.

I have said a few times that over all I think the phoenix and striker are balanced in some perverted kind of way. The changes they made to the phoenix a week or so ago make it much harder to use now IMO. While I do get pissed to no end when pansy asses sit behind a hill and guide missles around facility walls through the base courtyard and pound our AMS that is well hidden from site, I still think that is all it's good for. Bitch artillery and base turtling tactics. The TR striker on the other hand is the best AV weapon IMO. It makes all forms of enemy aircraft useless, any MAX caught outside a bases walls will get obliterated by striker fire as well. The striker is great because you don't need to be at extreme range for it to be useful. I've been bushwacked by MAX units and Reavers that get the jump on me at medium range and I've still been able to drop them with the striker. There is no way to do that with the phoenix, it's too cumbersome, too much reloading, and you can't afford to be going to the missile cam while you're trying to strafe and fire.

I'm not sure what to tell you, if the phoenix were to get nerfed, the striker would be the next thing that people complained about I think. Another thing people don't take into consideration is the fact that the differences in ROF between the cycler and the gauss are negligable at best.

[Lexington_Steele]

You are looking at the trees but not seeing the forest.

Look at overall faction balance rather than ballance in each individual weapons class.

There is an overall balance right now and I do not share your belief that the jackhammer will see a significat boost.

In the state the game is in, TR is balanced with NC.

If there is a significant boost to the Jackhammer, then that ballance has changed and the phoenix should take a nerf. Until that boost arrives, the Phoenix should remain the way it is.

[Pilgrim]

It is annoying to be moving towards an NC base and see the 5-10 phoenix missles wandering towards you (and they still do 50 dammage to Inf, so not useless in any way!) However, and I've said this before... Get inside a base with a Chaingun, and watch the NC fall like wheat.

I have no problem with the Phoenix, let it be an uber weapon that only works out side durring the initial stages of an attack. I'd rather be good in the assault then in knocking Reavers outa the sky. Reavers don't take bases, CQB in Reinforced does that. And ATM TR with a Chaingun is near unstoppable in that regard. (by anything short of a MAX)

The thing is ATM every NC guy is taking AV and not bothering with Heavy... I can't even say how well the Jackhammer works because every NC assaulter I see is armed with a Gauss and a Phoenix. And the Gauss don't cut mustard when up against Other factions heavy weapons. I love all the complaints about "I'm 5 feet away shooting the TR guy with my Gauss and he kills me with a chaingun... it must be too powerful and should be nerfed!!!" It's a Heavy weapon, designed to mow down INF

The phoenix, and the Stryker, and what ever the Shrooms use are AV weapons... they should be (and are when used properly) good at taking down vehicles.

PAX

[FraBaktos]

I've heard various times that the vanu sovereignity have the biggest balance issues of all of them. But I havn't played it yet on account of their damn mailing screw up :mad:

[SuicideSnowman]

I'm going to play Vanu simply because I enjoy being the underdog. Everybody talks about how much balancing work they need. Bring on the challenge. :)

[LLMerc]

The NC, in the current state of the game, still have a small advantage. It's in the ability to easily take out enemy AMS while the other 2 faction must rush it with vehicles/soldiers. However ...

If the Jackhammer is NOT boosted I will be VERY surprised. Like I said, I'd even bitch about it. Heavy assault is an expensive category, and it should give you a tangible benefit. A reaver cert is 4 points, and that vehicle is quite nice when it comes up against a vehicle. Thus, the jackhammer should be quite nice when up against an infantryman.

But saying the TR is balanced with the NC when taking into fact the unbalanced jackhammer and offsetting it with the overpowered phoenix is not beneficial to the future of the game.

[Delirare]

phoenix is balanced imho. 7seconds between rockets tends to suck. but no one mentions that, only that it does good dmg and is accurate. No one mentions that anyone doing evasive manuevers can avoid them since the turning sensitivity on them sucks. no one one seems to care it takes like 7-9 rockets to take out an ams. so lets see, 8 rockets at 7second shots (granted every single one hits) so we're looking at about 1minute to kill an ams with a phoenix. i know damn well the vanu and terran guns can do that ALOT quicker. ALOT quicker. sure they cant do it from the range the phoenix can but they have fast refire rates that can do dmg lots of dmg very quickly, while phoenixes get one big hit every now and then. balanced imho. Not to mention while someone is using a phoenix they are fodder for any infiltrator or sniper or anyone with a rifle thats in the area. Phoenix has lots of downfalls but people fail to see them

edit: i almost forgot to mention their complete worthlessness vs infantry, takes 5 sometimes 6 phoenix rockets to take out a infantryman, while the terran av weapon can kick infantry ass in medium range if he's smart.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by LLMerc
But saying the TR is balanced with the NC when taking into fact the unbalanced jackhammer and offsetting it with the overpowered phoenix is not beneficial to the future of the game.
I disagree. I do not believe we need cookie cutter factions.

The game will be alot more dynamic, in th long run, if different factions have different strengths.

If all the factions are exactly the same, then it gets boring. It will be about who has the most troops rather than who uses the best strategies.

If you are TR going against NC, use strategies that allow you to get close quickly. Galaxy drops are incredibly useful for this. Once you get up close to the NC they are finished.

Now NC has to take a different aproach. Sorties that merely get soldiers inside a TR are not going to cut it for the NC.

[LLMerc]

Delirare, I think you are wrong on many of your points.

First off, the phoenix does more damage with a single rocket than either of the remaining two anti vehicle weapons. It takes 5 strikers to kill a reaver, 15+ for an AMS. carrying 3 crates of striker missiles, I can only take out 2 reavers, 3 maxes and not even a single AMS, and that is if I live long enough to get them all off, and if none of them miss. (A lot do) So there is the evident amunition problem since yours is as bulky as ours but you get much better bang for the inventory space since one rocket counts for much more. Second, if 3 people are shooting reavers at an AMS, then it goes down prety damn fast. And all 3 are within the safety of the tower/base, well behind the front lines. In order ofr VS/TR to damage that ams they have to go THROUGH the front line, which is not a very easy task. And that a lot quicker thing ... you obviously haven't tried the striker. It's not all that quick. Sure, it's faster than the phoenix, but with the reload you have to do on anything except wraith basilisk and mosquito it gets very slow considering 2 phoenixes are as good as 4 strikers. Add to that the fact that a lot of them miss due to lock on issues and then talk to me about balance.

Granted, the striker is usefull, I use it all the time. It's the fact the phoenix is way too usefull that I am complaining about.

And I'd really like to know who died to a striker as an infantry man (other than some poor chap that got sniped as is on the brink of death). The striker has no homing capability on infantry and it is WAY to slow/easy to dodge in dumbfire mode, which you would have to do at extreme close range. A side arm would do a MUCH better job than the striker.

[Lexington_Steele]

You can use a striker effectively against a MAX indoors since you can step around a corner, fire off a shot and step right back.

The phoenix can not do this at all and is completely usesless in this scenario. By the time the first rocket has hit, you are already dead.

There are situations where the striker is much more useful than the phoenix.

[LesserShade]

Originally posted by SuicideSnowman
I'm going to play Vanu simply because I enjoy being the underdog. Everybody talks about how much balancing work they need. Bring on the challenge. :)
ooh yeah, you are going to have all kinds of challenges on your hands. They should just be renamed the Common Pool faction right now. althought the VS AI max is very hoss IMO.

[mr_luc]

Yeah I'm hearing good things about the Vanu AI . . . but yeah, nothing fearful, amazing or even slightly impressive about ANYTHING to do with Vanu.

TR MAX's are locking down, TR CG's are owning, NC Pheonix' are laying shit DOWN, TR and NC tanks are having these great encounters all over the place . . . the Vanu, man, you aren't hearing SHIT about us. Maybe an occasional 'they fought hard', but never "And then the Vanu launched a massive hovertank offensive!' or anything.

They sound very common pool right now.

[LLMerc]

Lex, the game simply can not stay as is. Leaving the jackhammer so unbalanced and saying "Well, NC has the phoenix" will not be beneficial. First of all, it's unfair to the other two empires. Take this example.

I did not count all the cert points, but lets say there are 50 total cert points when you add up all the certs. Now lets also assume all the empires are equaly balanced in tearms of overall empire weapon strengths. However, the Jackhammer is useless. So no NC soldier takes the jackhammer cert, leaving him with 4 points more to spend. All of them take phoenix and medium assault, but so do 90% of other empire grunts. However, 50% of other empire grunts take the heavy weapon cert. They are now balanced with the NC grunts, BUT they paid 4 more cert points. That means the NC pool is now at 46 total cert points, 8% reduction. Which is quite large in my opinion. Thats an extra reaver cert.

You could argue that in order to be balanced the NC would have to spend those 4 points elsewhere. But where? Any other choice would be from the common pool. Which means there is something about common pool that is causing NC to be even with TR and VS, but it's also available to those 2 empires, so they take it aswell, and now they are ahead etc etc. This may make little sense as I type it. But the point is simple. If the jackhammer has no use, it leaves 4 more points to spend for an already balanced NC soldier (through the power of phoenix combined with gauss).

And I am not even getting into the prowler/magrider vs the machine of death they call the vanguard.

P.S. There is also a small balance issue with NC being so strong at range while TR/VS must fight up close. It's the issue of grief points. It's much easier to get grief points while in a close quarters battle, than when you are lobbing rockets over a hill and sniping with the medium weapon which also works well in close quarters. So when taking a tower, TR have to rush in and close that gap, meanwhile wounding their friends.

[PR24]

Last night (my clanmates can confirm this) I was killed for close to 2 hours by only 1 damn weapon, the pheonix.

A load of NC get up on a hill way to taf to be hit with a CG and fire pheonix's all day long. We where in a tower and the NC where firing from an AMS from a distance away so ammo was unlimited.

They where hitting the door one after another and 3 shots to a full health max and you are dead. Well when you have 4-6 people firing these one after another step in the door once and boom you are dead.

This Pheonix is over powered and the aim on it is outragious.
This weapon will kill Planetside for me if they do not do something to fix this thing. It starts to piss me off pretty bad when you can not even fight back at your attacker because he is on the other side of the hill 500 meters away. :mad:

[LesserShade]

The strikers advantage over the phoenix is in the medium to long range area around base walls outside. Phoenix is a long to extremely long range weapon. The striker can also be used inside, although while inside the decimator owns all :)

That's what I'm saying though, yeah the phoenix is annoying as hell when you are trying to launch an assault on a base, but where is the phoenix after you get close? That's why I think it's overrated as an AV weapon, it's only seems to be good when you have plenty of time to set yourself up.

Oh and in regards to a striker being good against infantry at medium range... no. I'd almost be better off switching to chainblade and try to run someone down than use that thing outdoors on a person.

[slytiger]

Are any of u by chance in the beta. Because if u arent than dont complain. Untill u play it than u will never know how they react. I have played many battles against the TR and i always fear the chaingun. But when ever i am playing wit a squad we always get rid of it with no problem. There is always a solution to a problem u just have to find it. For me i say the weapons are fine, leave them alone. Maybe all u have to do is use a little teamwork to get rid of the problem.

[LLMerc]

Just dismising a claim of imbalance is not going to solve anything. Maybe you should do some testing? Isn't that what you are there for? I have tested all 3 factions, and have done extensive testing on the AV weapons of each of the factions. My conclusions are not assumptions, I have facts to back them up with. Granted, a lot of my points are opinion based, but I did not pull them out of my arse. And yes, I have been testing the game for some time now.

[Led]

Blah blah blah this killed me whine whine omg nerf everything.

If we keep this up, it will end up just like counterstrike, where all the guns are so horribly inaccurate, that most kills are based on luck.

Hug yer chaingun and mind your own business :p

[Hamma]

One fact remains, the Phoenix is still artillery, its a weapon that does not require LOS, something that the dev's were against since day one.

I'm personally suprised its still in the game myself :eek:

[PR24]

Originally posted by Led
Blah blah blah this killed me whine whine omg nerf everything.

If we keep this up, it will end up just like counterstrike, where all the guns are so horribly inaccurate, that most kills are based on luck.

Hug yer chaingun and mind your own business :p

It's responses like this that make me wonder if people know the meaning of BETA TESTING :rolleyes:

BETA TESTING is NOT a few free months of gaming people. Beta testing is to address balence issues, bugs and stability issues.
It is YOUR JOB as a beta tester to make the DEV team aware of in balence issues and hope they are addressed.

Ignoring a balence issue with th hope that retail releases a over powered weapon to your empire is omronic to say the least.

[Ruthless]

every certification needs to have inherent reasons for players to choose them. if the jackhammer is ignored, it needs to be fixed.

Question: which tank defeats the other more often, prowler or vanguard?

[Prowler]

Vanguard. :cool:

[SilentRaven]

for all the people complaining about the pheniox's.....no gun in this game is ment to be unstoppable.....this is why people cert in various things...like be a stealther and stab the guy with a knife on the hill that is laying seige on yer base with phenioxes......also theres a weapon ment for long range called a bolt driver.....while thier steering there rocket just put a bullet past there head and thats that

[Airlift]

I'm not touching the phoenix issue. I've used it and I'm not that impressed, but I also don't care if it gets nerfed to shit. In fact, I'd rather get some of the phoenix monkeys out of my empire so I wouldn't get an experience hit.

To say that the gauss is much better than the other 2 medium empire specific weapons is blatantly incorrect. The Cycler is perfectly balanced with the Gauss, and in a base where it counts, I would rather have the cycler. You complain about the accuracy, but that is the whole point of the weapon. A more correct statement would be that the Pulsar is much worse than the other 2. More correct still would be to say that the Pulsar is a little worse than the other two.

[Tieom]

Well, let's see...
What are the OTHER options for the phoenix besides 'camera guided'?
Dumbfire-only - Decimator does it better.
Constant LoS Lock-on - Striker. Tho it seems this system blows.
Constant LoS lock-on, Missiles PoV - Achieve lock-on. If the MISSILE, not YOU, loses line-of-sight to the target, it becomes dumbfire.
Halflife style laser-guided - This COULD work, I suppose. Could even make the laser subject to the CoF.

That's all the ones I can think of that seem feasible.

[Lexington_Steele]

Hamma, what would you propose as the NC Factional AV weapon?

You are always going to be able to use it as artillery unless you remover the remote controlled aspect.

Remove the remote controlled aspect and then it is just a dumbfire weapon.

[PR24]

I think the AV weapon should be common pool. Everyone has the same AV weapon which imo would be the TR AV weapon.

Carmera guided stops battles and allows people to hide and fight w/o ever showing their face at the "real" battle.

[Duilin]

If the AV weapons take too much of a nerf half of the population will cert for MAX...if not more, I imagine I would

[Led]

Originally posted by PR24
It's responses like this that make me wonder if people know the meaning of BETA TESTING :rolleyes:

BETA TESTING is NOT a few free months of gaming people. Beta testing is to address balence issues, bugs and stability issues.
It is YOUR JOB as a beta tester to make the DEV team aware of in balence issues and hope they are addressed.

Ignoring a balence issue with th hope that retail releases a over powered weapon to your empire is omronic to say the least.

One could say the same about people like you, that whine when you get blasted in a situation advantageous to another player. Then hide behind the guise of 'Im beta testing, you jerk!' whenever someone gets riled at your inane remarks.

Did you know the phoenix does jack squat in damage to infantry? They are an antiarmor weapon, that is all. If you are losing because you are too dependent upon your MAX units, then use your noggin and switch tactics.

Also, a phoenix user is very much at a disadvantage in an indoor fight. I swipe strikers and lancers when I can when I fight MAXes indoors, because having to stand outside of cover to blast something that is most likely also trying to shoot me is NOT spiffy. Striker/lancer users can quickly duck in and out of cover, much more useful in my opinion.

This is NOT COUNTERSTRIKE. You can NOT expect to charge straight at the enemy, using the same strategy every damn time and expect to win. Use your HEAD. I am a very deadly fighter, not because of my weaponry, not because of my ping, but because on a constant basis I outthing opponents that are honestly most of the time just braindead deathmatchers.

You have a squad of idiots trying to blast infantry with rockets from behind a hill (sure it takes six or so, but if you get enough firing on one target, they can be irritating)? Well then charge out the back, loop around, and own them all from the rear! It is not SOMEONE ELSES responsibility. It is YOUR problem, YOU deal with it!

Try thinking two steps ahead, kid.

If you get your way, and the phoenix gets toned down, then what? You have the NC constantly getting rolled over by other empires armor.

If you get your way, and the gauss rifle gets tone down, then what? You have the NC constantly getting mowed down by cyclers and chaingunners as we try to close to within fighting range.

Every empire has their advantage. USE YOURS. If you engage the opponent on their ground on their terms, you LOSE. I used to whine all the damn time about chaingunners too, but you know what? I got smart. I no longer have a problem with them. Plus I can also loot and use them now :p

/endrant

[phadE]

Originally posted by Hamma
One fact remains, the Phoenix is still artillery, its a weapon that does not require LOS, something that the dev's were against since day one.

I'm personally suprised its still in the game myself :eek:

Your exactly right. The weapon WILL be changed if the devs are true to there word. Which they have been for the most part. So I expect this weapon to be changed very soon.

[Irnbru]

striker takes 4 missiles to bring down a reaver or max, and 3 missiles for squito. Phoenix takes 2 missiles for a reaver.

i would personally take a striker over the phoenix just bc it is more versatile.

Yesterday in Dual Cycler MAX i took out a VS AI MAX and 4 infantry that were with it, just by clamping down. The MAX never tried to fly off or anything, just stood there and took a whoopin'. Best way to take down the TR max in that situation is fly off to the side and get out of his firing arc :)

[PR24]

LED,

Reading comp 101 look it up :rolleyes:

[Anarion]

Before Lex's thread drags this topic down the level of the beta boards..

Having been an NC player more than the other factions I'll say this..

Is the Pheonix overpowered for its cost? Most likely yes...

Here's an idea though, instead of just saying "it sucks it sucks it sucks".. Why not offer new suggestions on what you could be done to improve it.. Talk about how NC weapons as a whole could be better balanced to offset any changes to the Pheonix, anything.. Otherwise, your posts just end up in the same pile as 99% of the beta board ones on the pheonix, inflamatory..
For all those who say "you should be beta testing", ok its been documented to death that many people don't like the pheonix, done. The 500th post on the subject doesn't make you a better beta tester, just that you're a borderline cyber-stalker on the concept of the NC Pheonix.. By this point, if its going to be fixed, the devs are already looking into it.. All this brow beating on NC players to "repent the ways of the pheonix" is as much a "terran fanboy" thing, as nerf the chaingun is an NC one.. Its stupid..

How about a constructive list on the kinds of things that would make the pheonix fair..

Line of sight? If its possible for the devs to implement, sure..
You could make the turning radius even more broad to limit the rocket's maneuverability.
You could increase the overall speed of the rocket 20-30% also thereby making it harder to control, but not impossible..
I also saw a suggestion once about the rocket being 'laser guided" like the rocket launcher from Half Life, a suggestion i rather like.. Solves your LoS problem, makes it a bit harder to hit moving targets, than if you had a camera in the nose..

Any other ideas?

Overall its getting rediculous in those beta forums, I've seen a thread wanting to downgrade just about every weapon the NC have.. Eventually it looks less and less like objective beta testing and more and more like poor sport whining.. Nevermind that a suggestion to tone down the chaingun (regardless of the posters intent) is met with the same rabid defense as pheonix users generate over their weapon.. Everyone has an opinion, and just because you, as a terran player, think the chaingun is balanced or the pheonix isn't doesn't make it true. So jumping on NC players for defending the pheonix, AND jumping on those who suggest the chaingun might be overpowered? Pot? Kettle Black?

Whether or not other empires weapons should be altered is secondary. Still, some people's bias for one faction is just as bad as they accuse others of being.. At the point where you get "angry" about the pheonix, you know you've crossed the line between objective tester and passionate anti-weapon advocate.

For what its worth, I decided to jump back over to the terrans for a while to see if its all as bad as people have been saying.. I haven't seen anything yet that was so abusive it would make me run to the boards screaming to the devs..

In the end, you make your objective opinion on the weapons in planetside known, then suggest possible fixes.. Browbeating someone with your "opinion" over and over till they concede, isn't beta testing.. You're allowed to have differing opinions, and still be objective..

[Led]

Originally posted by PR24
LED,

Reading comp 101 look it up :rolleyes:

Aw, is that the best counter you can come up with?

Bite my shiny golden plated ass.

[LesserShade]

Before Lex's thread drags this topic down the level of the beta boards..

Having been an NC player more than the other factions I'll say this..

Is the Pheonix overpowered for its cost? Most likely yes...

Here's an idea though, instead of just saying "it sucks it sucks it sucks".. Why not offer new suggestions on what you could be done to improve it.. Talk about how NC weapons as a whole could be better balanced to offset any changes to the Pheonix, anything.. Otherwise, your posts just end up in the same pile as 99% of the beta board ones on the pheonix, inflamatory..


er, well most times when anybody on the beta boards suggests a change for the phoenix they get flamed for crying nerf.

[LLMerc]

I have sugested solutions to the phoenix. Many times. I have responded to so many threads now that it has become repetitive. This thread was meant to simply try and put a new perspective out to the NC players that seam to think it is ok to have an overpowered weapon as long as you have a weak one aswell.

As to the solutions, there are many.

Line of sight needs to be maintained. Even the striker needs to maintain the line of sight or the missle hits (user must keep target in reticule while missile is in flight or the missile goes into dumbfire mode) To do this you could either completely scrap the design and come up with a new one (self locking missile, you fire it and it flies dumb fire for a while then locks onto nearest enemy vehicle/max, with dumbfire ability) or you could make the weapon missile explode when line of sight is lost, or go dumbfire (like the striker) It would need a reload upgrade in this case, but anything to get rid of the artilery effect.

[PR24]

Originally posted by Led
Aw, is that the best counter you can come up with?

Bite my shiny golden plated ass.

No I am an adult and don't have time to argue with kids.

gg

[Led]

Originally posted by PR24
No I am an adult and don't have time to argue with kids.

gg

Oooh, scathing.

If you want to flame, feel free to send me a PM so I can ignore it. No need to be a jackass in public.

[PR24]

LED,
place me on ignore please :nod:

[PR24]

ANyways,

LLMerc I agree with you and have been doing the same but it seems to be useless to post about and NC weapon w/o the NC saying leave it alone.

DEV's at this point have heard the people in the forums so now it's a waiting game to see if they will fix the problem. :)

[Happy lil Elf]

I'm just pissed it's so easy to kill aircraft period. All I've heard is how reavers are just missile fodder =\

[Tieom]

As long as the aircraft aren't going down to a few handgun bullets, they're tough enough. I doubt many of the one-person fightercraft we have today could withstand a hit (in the sense that the pilot is alive, and the aircraft can fly) from, say, a SAM site or even a person-hauled Stinger (or the like).
Besides, Aircraft > Ground vehicles > Infantry > Aircraft, or so it seems.

[Flameseeker]

Guess my empire?
Yup, even I, a non beta-tester, an NC PILOT, believes that the Phoenix should be changed. Give it a smaller range, and make it stay in LoS. Simple.

[Wake]

^^^ *COUGH* A-10...flying pig...can fly back home with half of it's wing and a missing engine. *COUGH* B-17...could do the same thing only it was bigger. Anyways...they've made the phoenix harder to use since I first started using it. Yes it is easy to use. But anyone good enuff can avoid the dang thing. If you overshoot your target you won't get a second chance. And...it's very hard to take out an AI MAX of any race with the thing up close. You might get one missile off. Plus guys wore ain't always fair :D We use the same thing today in the U.S. military. However the one thing I would suggest is to make the missile faster. This makes it really hard to maneuver the missile to take out stuff behind buildings or walls even things like Mosquitos. Oh yeah, mosquitos I've found are harder to take out than anything cept the motorcycles. The mosquito merely has to move like two feet and you'll miss completely. Ok, now I am a pro-phoenix and I do love the dang thing but if you keep it true to the form but either A) Make it take even longer to reload or B) Make it fast enough so that it is harder to aim at moving targets then I think you'll see less people using it.

[PR24]

*COUGH*
This is not RL ;)

[Happy lil Elf]

You're right, todays aircraft wouldn't stand up to a direct hit from a missile, which is why they go so fast :p

As long as I have a chance of dodging incoming missiles I'll be fine with it. It just worries me when I hear people saything things like "The TR striker on the other hand is the best AV weapon IMO. It makes all forms of enemy aircraft useless" it worries me as piloting is what I like to do best. Now granted that's probably an overstatement, but still.

[LesserShade]

hrm.. I guess it's an overstatement if you stumble on a base where one guy has a striker and he's in the basement or something. The striker is the best AA weapon in the game flat out. Reavers are easy targets because the LOS is generally clear when firing up in the air so the thing gets lock, and it's easy to maintain lock. Mosquitos are comically easy to shoot down, dumbfire 3 missiles into the air and then move your reticle onto the mosquito and all the missiles will home in on the vehicle at the same time and take it out of the sky in what appears to be a one shot hit.

[mr_luc]

That sounds like a good balance to me.

If they have AA weaponry, stay LOW and try to avoid missile lock situations. Risks/rewards for piloting. The reward is that, for the Reaver as an example, you can have a run where you kill 10-20 people without dying, just by carpet bombing unprepared infantry.

[Tendain]

After reading this thread it seems that there are two major complaints with the Pheonix. One: indirect fire, and two: that the Pheonix missles get more 'bang for the buck' then those of the other anti-vehicular weapons. Now, I'm not a beta-tester, (I'm one of those people that you're not allowed to give Tobacco, pornography, or beta slots to... ;) ) but I do happen to have a couple of ideas to maybe help solve these issues (and maybe, if I'm a good little boy, the great and powerful beta-testers will carry these ideas to that wonderful place, where the magical Devs will listen to them ;) :D ).

To solve the indirect fire problem, perhaps instead of removing the indirect attacks altogether, instead make them more difficult. After all (and correct me if I'm wrong) the devs haven't said that there should be no indirect fire, only that they thought that it should require a hefty amount of work and effort, perhaps more effort then it's worth. So, to make it more difficult, I would say make the missile easier to spot. Make the missile bigger, and the flare from the thruster brighter. Have there be an easily visible line connecting the missile and the firer. Maybe even make it travel slower so there's more time to see it, and it's easier to dodge.

And regarding the problem that the missiles themselves are too powerful, I should think that the answer to this one is fairly obvious. Make it so that the missles take more space, or that you can carry less of them in the same space. From what I've seen the Pheonix loads alot like a Bazooka, which means the missile are to big to go in anywhere other then directly into the barrel. The Striker, on the other hand has missiles that are small enough that they can be loaded into a clip in the back. Thus it seems logical that you could carry more Striker missles per invertory space then Pheonix missles. The primary complaint that I see is that the Striker requires more shots to kill something then the Pheonix, so making the latters missles larger should solve that.

[Subliminal]

Well my friend you sound like you havent played yet or at least not NC, what nerfing could be done to the phoenix, they already butchered the damn thing to 5 seconds. I think its all a bunch of idiots rockin the boat, I have never heard any dev say that they are nerfing it any further. The chaingun on the otherhand will probably be nerfed in the near future. Id say all they would have to do is make it harder to aim, after all a gun like that wouldnt stay as stable as it does and in its current state any newb and their mother can mow down a normal infantry with it.

[LLMerc]

Making the missile easier to see will not help one bit =) Well, not true, it may help an aircraft. However, AMS can't dodge it =) My main beef with indirect fire is inability to defend your AMS. You just can't, other than making a wall of infantry infront of the path of the missile.

As for the striker being too powerfull, pilots are way too smart today. I hardly ever kill a reaver anymore. I hurt it, but almost never kill a healthy reaver. First of all, boosters get you out of lock range in a matter of seconds, long before I can reload. Also, if you see the missile on radar before it hits, you can hit boosters and fly at the same speed (or almost same, as missile, untill you get out of lock range which is when the missiles go into dumbfire mode. Last but not least, duck behind cover, lock is lost, missiles are dumbfire. I've seen all of these used on me. And I like that. However, not being able to lock on a Phalnx turet or anything on a tower balcony sucks and should be fixed =)

[LesserShade]

^point. The afterburners on the reaver do allow you to escape the striker range a lot of the time.

[Vash]

Given the length of this thing and my bad mood, I'm not sure what else I can really add to this... but I'll at least touch on remarks that I found silly :p :)

(disclaimer: The below are opinions generated by a bad mood. It's not my goal to piss off anyone, but if I manage to, I appologize in advance. There will also be a lot of quoting/'post disecting, so if that kind of post annoys you, skip it)


Requiring the Phoenix's shooter have LOS basically makes the weapon useless. Once you pop up, aquire your target and fire, you're basically sniper fodder until you fly your missiles to the target. The Striker, obviously doesnt have this problem since you can run around, dodging fire while your missiles hit home.

3 NC soldiers grab phoenixes and take out the AMS without any work, shooting from the safety of the base
You parked too close and/or out in the open. Try again :P~
It's not like you can kill an AMS with just a handful of Phoenixes either. It takes steady fire even from the Vanguard to kill one.
Also worth mentioning that you cannot see the 'cloak bubble' through the Phoenix's camera.

phoenix can be used against infantry
Yes, but it's a huge waste of ammo. The only infantry worth targetting with a Phoenix are snipers, and even then it's only a feeble attempt to drive them away.

Phoenix is my MAJOR beef with the game, and as some people said, I will not buy the game if it stays as is.
I could say the same about the mini-chaingun, and like the phoenix, I'm sure I'm not alone. As it stands that thing has firepower on par with a MAX.
(I wouldnt actually not buy it, I'm far too addicted to it already :))
Also, I dont feel the Jackhammer needs a "significant boost." It just needs to have an effective range greater than 'spitting distance' :rolleyes:

First off, the phoenix does more damage with a single rocket than either of the remaining two anti vehicle weapons. It takes 5 strikers to kill a reaver, 15+ for an AMS. carrying 3 crates of striker missiles, I can only take out 2 reavers, 3 maxes and not even a single AMS
First off, that's the whole point. The NC is supposed to do more damage per shot.
Carrying 3 crates of Phoenix missiles, I can only take out 3 reavers, and 3 maxes. I cant comment on the AMS since I've never attacked one without at least half a dozen people (at CLOSE RANGE), often with either armor or air support. But I'd be willing to bet I couldnt 'solo' and AMS with 3 crates either, heh

A side arm would do a MUCH better job than the striker [against infantry].
A sidearm would be better than the phoenix against infantry as well... 9 AMP bullets vs half a dozen phoenixes...

It's the issue of grief points. It's much easier to get grief points while in a close quarters battle, than when you are lobbing rockets over a hill and sniping with the medium weapon which also works well in close quarters.
Lobbing rockets over a hill doesnt capture a base. The Lasher and Chaingun also own the Gauss in CQB.
And if/when the Jackhammer becomes worth using, an auto-shotgun isnt going to magically avoid hitting friendlies either, you know.

A load of NC get up on a hill way to taf to be hit with a CG and fire pheonix's all day long. We where in a tower and the NC where firing from an AMS from a distance away so ammo was unlimited.
They where hitting the door one after another and 3 shots to a full health max and you are dead. Well when you have 4-6 people firing these one after another step in the door once and boom you are dead.
- PR24
Maybe you should've stopped running out the door then? Get a handful of people together to either go out the backdoor or spawn somewhere else and flank their asses. Or how about sending a few reavers on a strafing run on their AMS? Either way you'll likely be successful, considering they're concentrating so hard on your tower's front door :p

One fact remains, the Phoenix is still artillery, its a weapon that does not require LOS, something that the dev's were against since day one.
I'm personally suprised its still in the game myself :eek: - Hamma

Agreed, and if they're going to, they'd better change it pretty damn quick before beta ends... otherwise they'll just be pissing off legions of customers. :mad:

Expanding on the whole 'phoenix = artillery' thing, it's entirely too easy to knock out spitfires with it. All you have to do is fly over the wall or through the front gate to knock them out without fear.
I admit I've done this more than a few times myself, and it must be hell for my fellow engineers on the other teams :(

Though maybe giving Spitfires the ability to shoot down Phoenixes would help the whole artillery issue... <shrug>


Either way, that's enough of that for one post... :lol:

Sorry if my opinions rub any of you the wrong way ;) :D

[zMessiahz]

Originally posted by Led
Every empire has their advantage. USE YOURS. If you engage the opponent on their ground on their terms, you LOSE. I used to whine all the damn time about chaingunners too, but you know what? I got smart. I no longer have a problem with them. Plus I can also loot and use them now :p

/endrant


Do they? And what, pray tell, is the Vanu's advantage as the game stands? No, I have not played. But I can tell you something... I have read endless sniveling posts about how much the Phoeniz is hated. Same goes for the Gauss and Chaingun. Never once have I read about a Vanu weapon/armor/vehicle that is hated. Some poeple claim that a few Vanu weapons are "OK". Some even say the Vanu AI MAX is "pretty good". That statement is usually followed by the boast "but my AI MAX will kill it every time".

So let me ask you again, what exactly is the Vanu's advantage?

Don't take the lame way out and say the jump jets on the MAX. Yes, that is cool and an advantage, but no more so then what the other two empire MAX's can do. It seems the only case of different abilities between the empires that no one bitches about.

I don't mind the idea of fearing the NC AV weapon and Med Assault weapon, nor do I mind fearing the TR Heavy Assault weapon or AI MAX. However, I DO mind the Vanu having nothing that the other two fear.

[Led]

The vanu are being adjusted, it is common knowledge. And no, their weapons in their current state are not worthless. They just do not have the glitz other empires weapons have (accuracy on the gauss, bullet spam from chaingun, etc). I have no problem picking up a pulsar from a dead vanu when I run out of ammo, hell it is better than the gauss in close quarters fights. And it is better than the cycler at long range fights.

The lasher also got an upgrade, so to speak. They changed the lashing effect so that it would not hurt people right around the user when he starts firing, I saw more lashers that same day. It is a very nasty weapon in close quarters, I do not discount it at all :)

The vanu AI max is their shining star, so to speak. A good player in one of those can put on a whole world of hurt.

The vanu will be a force to reckon with when they are finished.

[LLMerc]

The only MAX I fear in an outdoor fight is the vanu MAX. If used right =) Most of them decide to use boosters and go up, which only gives me more time to lock on with the striker. The ones that fly at you ... they are the ones that also have a collection of my dog tags.

NC MAX goes down almost too easy when outdoors =) I haven't faced off against a TR one though. Indoors, I'd have to say NC one is the hardest, although I hear TR is prety tough. Vanu is still no laughing batter. And the fact they can go into a base anywhere they wish .... makes for quite a strong oponent. So yes, Vanu AI max is, IMO the best of the 3. It is also the only one with AP ammo

[zMessiahz]

Heh. Yes hopefully they will be evened out when they were done. It is my sincerest hope, though, that the Vanu's Shining Star is not something about wich the other empires say "It's pretty good". Not when they moan constantly about the 3rd empire's shining star at least.

As it stands the Vanu AI MAX has respect, but not fear like TR and NC weapons mentioned earlier. Not to mention that the TR AI MAX has the same respect as the Vanu AI MAX.

[Camping Carl]

Every empire has their advantage. USE YOURS. If you engage the opponent on their ground on their terms, you LOSE.

Led, you took the words right out of my mouth. If the enemy is being cheap with phoenixes, it's your fault for not thinking of a counter-strategy.

Everyone wants this to be a simple, balanced, deathmatch. But the fact is, in some areas the enemy should have a clear advantage over you, and you over them in other ways. That way, you have to rely on your brain and focus on what your empire is good at, not complain because you aren't perfectly matched with your enemy in all areas.

Except for the vanu tho, they obviously need improvments. But if they speed up the lancer firing a little, and improve the pulsar, there ya go. (but that's just how I'd do it)

[Led]

Not in my mind. TR maxes fight very predictably, tending to stay stationary while taking longer shots, and even sometimes (stupidly) anchoring in the middle of a field to hose a target. Nothing one cannot avoid with a little cover.

Vanu maxes on the other hand, are freaking scary. Nothing like ducking back behind a wall to have the thing come thundering overhead and fry your butt with nary a second thought. Most VS max pilots are also getting the hang of dodging phoenix rockets, jumping at the very last moment, not giving time to correct.

Remember though, that everyone is a stupid newb :D It is not even open beta yet. After time, people will learn and start to develop new tactics to deal with situations. Do not worry :)

[Vash]

The TR AI MAX is kind of an oddball...

It's a real defensive nightmare... just one clamped down in front of a control console is a serious problem.
But on the otherhand, if you catch him on the way there, 2-3 guys with AP-loaded sweepers or AV weapons can take him out without too much fuss.

As for the VS AI MAX... well, it can be a real pain :)
They can completely bypass your turrets and minefields and pick you apart from the inside. It's my favorite max, even though I dont play VS :)

[Hamma]

I dont have a solution to the phoenix, just speaking my mind on the artillery issue :p

[glsauron]

NOT BETA MEMBER

My thought:
1: Striker is considered relatively powerful, good indoors and a decent AV/AA weapon

2: Vanu is underpowered. The lasher is feared, as is the AI MAX, but not in the same way a Pheonix is.
Camping Carl
But if they speed up the lancer firing a little, and improve the pulsar, there ya go.

Ill take his word for it.
To be effective the Lancer better be having almsot instant travel times...

3: Gauss *EDIT* What is the argument against the Gauss? Too powerfull at range? It should be strong at range. Just weak at short range. See below post.

4A: Phoenix. Dont remove. Switch to LoS to control the missile. Long as you can see it you can control. Cant see the missile you cant control and goes DF. Would prevent artillery use and still let you guide it over hills (go up, then align with target until you cant see it anymore, they move you miss)

4B: Also pheonix. Other idea would be to change it, move slower, bigger visual signiture, show on radar. Would make dodging easier. Had more but got kind've dumb sounding.

5:
Medium Assault(LR, AI) Pulser=Cycler=Gauss
Heavy Assault (SR, AI) Lasher=Mini-changun=Jackhammer
Anti-Vehicular(AV/AA) Lancer(Direct Strike and fast)=Striker(Lock-on in LoS)=Phoenix(Remote Guided)
Standard(SR, Pistol) Beamer=Repeater=ScatterPistol.

And to you who was stuck in a tower...as said above also, MOVE. If they are covering the door keep one guy spawning and walking into the fire to keep occupied, and have the other guys move around back, or get atop the tower and snipe, or... beauty of PS, strategy has an impact rather then brute force.

P.S. Anybody think that they could move implant slots into thearmor rather then BR? Inf=1. Standard/Lt=2. Med/Max=3? Help the newbies! And dont give vets/BR20s extra power then certs allow already.

[drsomewhere]

whew, what a long thread, i hope everyone is satisfied

[Camping Carl]

Don't take my word for it, glsauron. I'm not in beta yet, and it's just my opinion.

It's tricky tho, say you want to balance the vanu infantry weapons overall with other empires. But then again, if the vs have also got the best max suit (many people think so), is that fair? And then does that mean their vehicals should be at a slight disadvantage to compensate?

You really need an unbiased perspective to judge this, which obviously few of us have. Naturally you don't like your enemy to have an edge in any area, cause when they kill you, it's unfair right? :D

[Wake]

3: Gauss is too powerful at range. Open the CoF for it a little (+-10-15^). At short range wont matter, but at long it'll be useless (its a shotgun!)
Hehe sorry bud the Gauss Rifle is well a rifle. It's more accurate than the cycler but it has less bullets than the cycler in the clip and the gauss is not as good as the cycler indoors either.

And for whoever said that the boosters can get a reaver outta range on the striker...it does the same on the Phoenix. Also for all those out there that don't kno...there is a maximum range on the Phoenix so it's not like we're firing across the map destroying ppl at a warpgate or something. It goes for about 5 seconds and then explodes.

[glsauron]

*oops!* goes back to edit. Gauss or the jackhammer we talking about? Gauss should have range and accuracy. But make it have trouble hurting poeple at short range. Like too much power, just rips through with almsot no health damage and only light armor dmg. Jackhammer should have huge amounts of short range punch...but spread too much over long range to do much damage.

[NeoTassadar]

From the description, wasn't the Pulsar supposed to be super-accurate (for an assault rifle, anyway)? I've been hearing now how much it sucks. What happened?

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by NeoTassadar
From the description, wasn't the Pulsar supposed to be super-accurate (for an assault rifle, anyway)? I've been hearing now how much it sucks. What happened?

There was a bug that caused the pulsar to do less damage than it was supposed to.

[Lexington_Steele]

As far as acuracy, the gauss is slightly more accurate which helps at long range, however, the CoF on the cycler gets bigger slower (the cycler has better recoil than the gauss).

With better recoil, faster RoF, and almost as much damage, the cycler pwns a gauss user at close- point blank range.

[Peanut]

It boggles me how people who aren't in the beta think that they know detailed specifics of what should be changed about gameplay.

[glsauron]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
With better recoil, faster RoF, and almost as much damage, the cycler pwns a gauss user at close- point blank range.

I was gonna say the cycler should own a Gauss at short range, as its catagoried next to the JH, but since it's not...
None of the TR weps should do anywhere near the dmg per shot of the equive NC wep. Thats why they have RoF and the NC doesn't...Balance dmg against RoF. VS gets med RoF, med dmg, and better speed.

Peanut- All my stuff is from what Ive heard and I *specifically* said at the start of my post Im not Beta :(

[Cygnus]

Fix the striker lock on, so that one can get a lock on any target 1/2 or more visible (ie only half-behind cover, etc.) Also, make it lock onto phalanxes.

After instituting the change, we all observe how this changes gameplay! If changing the striker lock-on to make sense also means that it is too powerful, we then proceed to increase the delay between shots, reduce the damage, lower the projectile life/speed, etc.

Increase phoenix travel speed, just enough to make hitting mobile buggies from medium range very difficult (jesus, try hitting a buggy with a lancer/striker).

Increase projectile speed on all Vanu weapons.

Increase jackhammer refire in both modes.

Increase Chaingun CoF while running.

Lower gauss refire slightly. (slightly, I say)

Make the mag-rider dangerous. I mean it. Dangerous.

Thresher too.

Yes, the prowler as well.

That's about it.

[LesserShade]

^oy the magrider :/

Now I'm not complaining here because I like the cycler very much and it seems to work out fine for me, but did anybody check the validity of RocketFodder's damage tables that he made up a few weeks ago? It showed that the gauss had a ROF that was almost exactly the same as the cycler, slightly slower, but only by 0.2 shots per second or something like that.

[Anarion]

You almost hate to admit it, but I've been travelling with the terrans for a bit, trying to be abusive with their weapons, and I think I'm starting to see some of what non-NC players have been on about...
I'd love to see that chart LesserShade, I'll search but do you have a link to it? If its correct then it adds some weight to what I was experimenting with last night.. The gauss is good, don't get me wrong, but I think either its RoF should be toned a bit, or its accuracy at extreme range should be scaled back.. It's already got a higher damage rating than the pulsar and cycler..
I guess ultimately the damage, range and even rate of fire isn't even that big an issue, its that with very little effort an NC trooper can just hold the fire button down at range and slaughter incoming troops.. With a cycler or chaingun upclose it makes sense, you're 5 feet away.. but when someone is 50m away and getting reamed by rapid fire gauss shells, well.. Seems to me that there should be some recoil on the gun if you choose to fire it full auto non stop like that.. So that accuracy decreases at range the longer you hold the trigger down; or at least moreso than it already does..
It isn't to say the rifle is unfair, but it really shouldn't have to take a massive horde rushing tactic just to close the 50 meters from the forest to the perimeter of the tower you're assaulting.. A far smaller group of NC held off a much larger group of terrans far too easily IMO last night, with very little cover of their own..
Sure, vehicles should be able to bring your troops in safely, but I wont travel down the path of the pheonix here.. And whether its myth or reality about that, the Terrans DO seem to use a LOT less vehicles than the NC in my experience..
I have to say I didn't experience much spam in terms of that rocket launcher in a large assault on an NC tower and base simultaneously.. I counted 4 out of about 20 or so NC with that weapon.. Still, I did give up flying a reaver after a very short period of time, as even when you thought you were out of range of the thing, a missle has followed you home..
Speaking as someone who's used the pheonix with some frequency (it IS probably the most fun weapon to use in PS), and as someone who's defended its merits; I have to say I wouldn't be at all upset if they took it down a notch further.. LoS being a decent trade off I'd think, for the power and accuracy of the weapon. Of course if no changes were made, I still think when people are reduced to BR1, you'll find less people willing to dedicate themselves for a month to get one, rather than everyone starting at BR10, and able to just wipe their characters (or make a new one) at BR10 as well.. Pheonixes are like candy, because no one has had to work for one yet..

I can also see the rationale behind the defence of the chaingun (I know it looks like I'm just selling the NC out all over), YES its absolute murder once you get up close.. Thing is, I got shanked so many times trying to get to the tower by gauss weapons, it makes it bloody even when I get in there with a chaingun and cause some havoc..

One final point.. We were getting hammered for a bit trying to assault a tower last night.. Pheonixes picking off our MAXs (that have to run from a nearby tower) and gauss cutting us down on the charge.. I was in a brand new squad, and while not the leader, I convinced the 3 snipers in our group to concentrate SOLELY on the tower walkways and coordinate as a team in nailing pheonix users (or gauss/sniper units too), anyone who tried to use that area to shoot down at us.. Pheonix fire trickled to almost nothing, MAXs started to inch closer to the tower and push the gauss troopers back, which brought up the chaingunners, and eventually we got to the base doors..
After a quick but bloody storming of the tower, we eventually took control.. Not at all an attempt to claim any responsibility for the outcome, but the rather a tactical point.. Weapons like the pheonix can be controlled if not stopped outright.. What I tend to see more often than not, even in a squad, are players acting individually not like they're in a group. Lack of coordination will kill you every time, because no one thinks its their responsibility to "take out" those units which are at the top of the target heirarchy..

Same thing with base assaults, sure pheonix users are hiding behind the walls shooting out at you.. That's when you take a decent size squad the long way around the side, go in through the back door, push your way to the control room, begin the cap, and then the outer defense turns inwards taking the pressure off the guys being pounded seiging the base..

In short (I know, hurray!) I can see now a bit more clearly what people think is unbalanced with the pheonix.. However I also see more clearly the flipside of the coin, that some people are complaining without ever having tried to develop a tactic to get around what they see as an unbeatable weapon..

my $0.04

[1024]

If you changed everything so that it would be even, that would kind of defeat the purpose of empire-specific weapons and vehicles, now, wouldnt it?

[Airlift]

It is ubertarded to claim the gauss is overpowered in the same post that you claim the Chaingun is not. Furthermore, it reeks of lobbyism.

[Lexington_Steele]

Anarion, by your same reasoning, it is not fair that NC have to Keep TR at a distance to stand a chance.

If you are nerfing NCs long range advantages, you need to nerf TRs short range advantages.

[Cygnus]

All of the weapons are supposed to be equally worthwhile. That's the design document, as far as I can tell. If all of the empire specific vehicles and weaponry are going to cost the same number of cert points, they absolutely MUST be equally as useful.

All of the changes the devs have made so far (and have said they'll make) have fit this pattern, fixing the Vanu vehicles and weaponry one by one, toning down the Phoenix, and tweaking the NC Shield.

This isn't to say that they can't be useful in different ways, ie if the lancer and striker are meant to be better at killing infantry and air vehicles respectively...I can live with that.

However, it's my opinion that there can still be diversity if you retain the current payload delivery styles, but tweak them to have similar effectiveness rates.

Assault rifles are straightforward in this regard. Since we aren't talking about balancing the empires, only the weapons, the rifles must be equally useful. In my humble opinion, the gauss is slightly more useful than the cycler.

Take the fact that the Jackhammer isn't very good and the fact that most of the NC choose the gauss rifle. That slight advantage 1 on 1 becomes quite sizeable with 30 on 30.

[LesserShade]

Phoenix use and towers always seems to boil down to this scenario when I'm assaulting:

Phoenix and sniper's on the roof supressing incoming enemies and a few scattered soldiers and MAX on the ground near the doors to mop up anybody that made it close to the base.

If I can manage to get through the doorway, I immediately go for the roof rather than the basement. The basement is suicide unless you have at least half a dozen friendlies in the tower lobby with you. Once on the roof, commence with the carnage. Most of the time the snipers have tunnel vision and the phoenix users are stuck on missle cam, so it is just a frikken field day mowing them down with the weapon(s) of your choice. Then you can use the roof to thin out the forces guarding the doors on the ground.

Once there you can live off ammo from corpses and hopefully get some medkits too. The easiest way to take a tower from NC is to get on the roof, secure it, killing their ability to keep the fight to a long range. Use the roof to kill or keep the ground troops occupied so that your ground force can move into the lobby. Once you start pushing down the stairs to the first landing it'll be ugly, but you've pretty much won the battle at that point.

Anyway, once they get the frikken CC out of the damn basement, these BS tower struggles aren't going to be near the problem that they are now. I swear, I would much rather let the NC take a nearby base and cap their tower while they are spawning at the facility, and then move on the facility after that. It is so much harder to take a damn tower than it is a facility.


Ok.. as far as the damage table thing goes, I believe RocketFodder came up with one, but that was like 3 weeks ago I think, searching the beta boards for it will be tough. I hope that he moved the data to an external site. At the time he said that he was gathering data for TR and NC.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by LesserShade
Ok.. as far as the damage table thing goes, I believe RocketFodder came up with one, but that was like 3 weeks ago I think, searching the beta boards for it will be tough. I hope that he moved the data to an external site. At the time he said that he was gathering data for TR and NC.

Rocket's table was garbage. It was mainly speculation and guess work.

Yes there were numbers on how many shot to kill something, however some of the numbers were wrong and the table did not mention anything useful about reload time, recoil or take different ranges into account.

In addition there have been adjustments made to many of the weapons since then, and the beta boards were recently wiped.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by LesserShade
Phoenix use and towers always seems to boil down to this scenario when I'm assaulting:

Phoenix and sniper's on the roof supressing incoming enemies and a few scattered soldiers and MAX on the ground near the doors to mop up anybody that made it close to the base.


You know, TR can use sniper rifles as well. Phoenix users are a snipers dream. They are targets that are forced to sit still for an extended period of time.

As far as the towers and how difficult it is to take them, I do not beleive you should be able to spawn MAXs at the towers.

If they take away the ability to spawn MAXs at the towers, the towers will fall more easily. (however some Vanu people are strongly against this because they feel their AI MAx is what keeps their faction competative.)

[glsauron]

Originally posted by Anarion
Thing is, I got shanked so many times trying to get to the tower by gauss weapons, it makes it bloody even when I get in there with a chaingun and cause some havoc..

OK, so they are even according to that part yet...


but I think either its RoF should be toned a bit, or its accuracy at extreme range should be scaled back.. It's already got a higher damage rating than the pulsar and cycler..


Which is it?

BETA MEMBER: Can Hamma or other PSU god edit the Cert page to mention the prereqs? I wanna see if the certs Im thinking of getting are possible. And it helps in general.

[Kyonye]

heavy assault weaponry for all factions are good in one way or another. the minichaingun for TR fires at a high rate with practically no recoil but isn't that accurate. the NC jackhammer is powerful weapon that if hit once or twice say goodbye. the Lasher is also pretty good, but, the only way a lasher is useful is if you are in a base because the actual orb isn't that fast moving so to hit someone you would need to be in an inclosed area. over all, they are good in one way or another.

[LLMerc]

GLSauron:

He said the chaingun is even to the gauss ....

Chaingun - heavy assault weapon, 6 certs total to get (2 for medium assault, 4 for heavy)

Gauss - medium assault rifle (2 certs)

Do you think they should be even? And BTW, they are not even. Chaingun is better, but only at close range =) Gauss will kick your ass at medium/long range.

[Geiden]

You know it's kind of funny about the fuss the phoenix has raised of late. It's not like it's come to a total shock to most of you. The vast majority of the people in Exclusive Beta have been following this game for over a year now. When the weapons were first disclosed last summer, EVERYONE was talking about how hard it was going to be to balance the Phoenix. Likewise, there was also a LOT of concern over the prospect of chaingun superiority inside bases.

My only beef with the TOW is it's ability to be used outside LOS. I think some possible tweaks to offset this would be:

a.) Reduce it's effective range by shortening it's timer.

b.) Reduce it's maneuverability. If you do this through a speed increase, then the timer must be shortened accordingly to keep range reasonable.

c.) Reduce it's damage (I'm not fond of this idea, I think NC weapons should do more damage per shot just slower))

d.) Increase it's reload time significantly

e.) Change the weapon to laser-guided like in Half-Life. This would fix a couple of things... It'd force the user to have LOS (to a certain degree) but the user would also not be totally defenseless while guiding the missile.

[LesserShade]

Ah yes, the beta board wipe, I forgot about that.

I think you are better off suiting up as a grunt or maybe better yet an infiltrator to try to deal with AV NC. Sniping is great if you can find a place to get a clear shot on a guy that has a weapon that allows him to stay out of LOS of a target. I think the idea is to figure out how you can muscle your way into the face of an AV user and get to him while he's fumbling with the guns.

Yes I completely agree that you shouldn't be able to get MAX from towers, however once they move the CC out of the basement, that will help quite a bit with tower assaults.

[Led]

BTW, whoever says the VS sucks, has never apparently run with/into a good group of them.

Last night the NC totally liberated Ceryshen, starting from no bases, to owning the entire place, in eight hours. That was some of THE most intense fighting yet. Those lashers HURT! I also had the opportunity to use one on several occasions, and wow, it was a murder machine.

Altough I did notice one thing. The lancer runs on ROCKETS? Whatthehell? :O_O:

[LesserShade]

Originally posted by Led

Altough I did notice one thing. The lancer runs on ROCKETS? Whatthehell? :O_O:
exactly! what is that all about? I have one in my locker but I'm out of ammo :/

[Delirare]

First: Phoenix takes 3 to kill a reaver, 2 for a mosq. not 2 for a reaver.

Second: PHOENIX not PHEONIX

Third: Phoenix does not have a dumb fire like so many of you believe it does.

-- Balancing Issues as i see them

Phoenix seems fine to me, i stand by my claim of sucky indoors use and pathetic rof balance it out. It is only accurate vs slow moving things, maxes can avoid them and planes easily can if they arent n00bs. Plus your massively vulnerable while firing it and its only good vs some targets. Armored targets. worthless vs infantry types. Striker needs its 'locking' feature tweaked. then its fine. Lancer needs lots of help, its mighty sad.

Phoenix isnt unbalanced. Phoenix is where it should be for an AV weapon, striker is almost there, lancer needs some work. dont nerf. fix.

gauss overpowered==joke.
Jackhammer needs more power in close range, but keep its range very minimal like it is now. Vanu needs help with its assault rifle.

[Anarion]

Originally posted by Airlift
It is ubertarded to claim the gauss is overpowered in the same post that you claim the Chaingun is not. Furthermore, it reeks of lobbyism.

I guess not caring what you think will help me sleep better at nights..

Love to discuss it with ya, but you're all insult, no substance.. Which speaks volumes about what your opinion's worth..

[Airlift]

:rolleyes: Sorry, I gave it all the attention it deserved. I can only read the same factional lobbying so many times before I get insulting. BTW, if you're short on context, it would be an insult for me to call you an ubertard, but everything I said was directed at your statement.

Please unbundle your panties and don't take it so personally.

In conclusion, smilies: :) :D :love: :love: :eek: :eek: :eek: :p :mad: :confused:

[Anarion]

Lemme see.. Nope, still don't care.. No, really...

As far as not taking it personally, right back at ya...

:p :rolleyes: :p



Originally posted by Airlift
:rolleyes: Sorry, I gave it all the attention it deserved. I can only read the same factional lobbying so many times before I get insulting. BTW, if you're short on context, it would be an insult for me to call you an ubertard, but everything I said was directed at your statement.

Please unbundle your panties and don't take it so personally.

In conclusion, smilies: :) :D :love: :love: :eek: :eek: :eek: :p :mad: :confused: