Balance Issues

[FliggenMan]

I want this post to address the balance issues: ,by first suggesting a way to get around balance issues using gameplay tactics, then suggesting a way that this could be done through actual modification of the game itself, if uthink that's what needs to be done.
In other words, every post should contain how they think each race is strong, and some ideas on how a race could beat a supposedly dominating race. If you don't believe that this is possible with any races, then please indicate a modification that could be administered to make this so.

[Knuckles]

Man - Yer asking a whole lot!

I've said it before, and i'll say it again:

Coming from an EQ background and I know what SoE can do with the nerf bat (fear it)!

In case this game takes the same irrid/unpredictable path that EQ did: There's no way in hell that the the thoughts and ideas that the player base might have, will have any impact/bearing on what actually is happening (and what's being changed) in game.

I might be biased and pessimistic, but there You go.

In EQ, SoE has proven, again and again, that they have much less understanding of the game, than the players have.

(This might not be the answer You are looking for - try again tomorrow when I'm rested and less pessimistic. :) )

[Vimp]

Is this restricted to ones that have played the game already?

[KabuX]

From what i've seen so far...

First off let me go through my impressions of the different races.

I believe that the NC are the strongest. They're power shotgun type weapons allow them to do a significant amount of damage in close quarters combat. Indoors it seems like they are unmatched except for possibly a planted TR AI MAX. Outdoors, in the open, i believe they are one of the weaker races, but this is easily compensated for with vehicle use.

Next would be the TR. Indoors and out, they're weapons are fairly accurate even with an increased rate of fire. The Minichain gun is a monster of a gun and can deal tons of damage at range or indoors. They're AI MAXes are very good all around and when planted can not be matched 1 for 1. The AV MAXes are very weak tho with short range and slow projectiles it is very hard to use. Its one saving grace is that the alternate fire is able to bounce around corners. I also am very partial to the cycler for medium assult.

Lastly the VS i believe are the weakest. They are still very strong and formidable. The VS seems to have the easist learning curve for their weapons. The ammo is very simple since there is only 1 type u can load up a lot in ur inventory. The AI and AV maxes are both very good. Outdoors the VS with their jumpjets will dominate and for taking bases they are able to get to places much easier. Their weakness seems to lie in the weapon damage. To me it seemed it took a lot more to kill someone with CS weapons than with the other 2 races.

I havn't had much experience with the different tanks so i can't really comment on them. I'll only say that the VS tanks are damn cool while the Prowler for the TR is damn menacing.

Anti NC strats. Catch them outside and FIND THEIR AMS. If u can catch the NC on the move u have a much better chance against them than when they are intrenched in a base. Also the AMS allows them for shorter time i the open.

I can't really say much against the VS cept for get indoors as fast as u can. MAXes on either the catwalks or in the courtyard areas will tear up ur troops.

Just a short comment about MAXes i general.

They seem to dominate indoors. AV weapons deal a good amount of damage to them and heavy assault weapons with AA ammo can be effective, but in general MAXes are very strong. One way of dealing with them is to try to dance around them at close range. I think it would be better tho, if the dev team decreased they're movement by making the mouse sensitivity locked and slow (like they used to have it in earlier beta).

KabuX



Zer0 Defiance (http://www.zerodefiance.com)

[Warborn]

Here's an excellent post by Vor from the Beta forums which addresses many of the problems with the game. It's a bit ranty/said with poor tone, but it is a good read none the less:



I've played a wide variety of characters during the past two weeks in every kind of battle the game provides. Air-to-air, air-to-ground, ground-to-air, gunuku gankfests, solo stealth hacking, tank driving, sniping, combat medic, combat engineer, yada yada yada. By way of background, I've played every MMO game released and am in every beta for MMO games.
While there are areas of the game which work well, the following areas remain problems and need to be addressed before launch:

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(1) Weapon imbalance.

Its no secret that people flock to the NC's for the guass and (especially) phoenix. You find almost every NC infantryman with that combination, or at least the phoenix. Having played against them, groups have a saying: Why is it we're all hiding?

We are all hiding because no vehicle or MAX lives for more than a few seconds after stepping outside in a contested base with NC outside. Period. Phoenixes swarming like flies, and as soon as one comes and smacks you you know the next handful are on the way, so you run like a girl for the closest door and hope they aren't skilled enough to steer one through and in to your rear.

I've read (NC, I'm assuming) morons suggest that we merely snipe them, or run some stealth guys out to backstab them, or other nonsensical shiit. I've spent a LOT of time sniping NC infantry and I'll tell you exactly what happens: they shoot, I nail them (nearly killing them). They either retreat to behind an obsticle before I can get off another shot or LET ME kill them because their AMS is behind them and 10 seconds later they are respawned AND REARMED. Since they can't carry more than 12-18 missiles, that means in hot combat that load lasts a couple minutes. By the time I've sighted them, steadied aim, taken the shot and hit THEY ARE ALREADY HALF EMPTY.

They are already half empty because THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE to shooting off a phoenix since its essentially a Predator drone and hellfire missile wrapped into one. Sit inside Gunuku, for instance, while the NC's are outside and you won't see your radar screen clear of phoenixes for hours on end. Try it, its a fact. Get into a max and walk into the courtyard (the courtyard, mind you, not outside) and within a few seconds the first phoenix will be winging its way in to you followed by all of its friends.

This is imbalancing for a number of reasons. First, MAXes are worth the most experience. When you are playing NC you could CARE LESS about infantry when you and your two buddies can kill a max in seconds with zero risk. He won't see you, just your missile and it is ludicrously easy to get the weapon on target.

Second, don't get me started on vehicles. If you aren't NC you don't use them in combat. Yes, I've driven light and heavy tanks in combat against NC and you last seconds. Conversely, if you are NC and you decide to take a break from phoenix launching, you get a Vanguard and go to town. Its fast, it has HUGE armor compared to the AV capabilities the other sides have (when was the last time you saw a Vanguard die in 3 seconds? Never, I would wager. YOu see this repeatedly if you are driving a Prowler or Magrider), and best of all it has an incredibly damaging gun. If the Vanu or Terrans had the phoenix you'd see the Vanguard's go down faster than a white house intern.

Third, don't even try with air cover. No skeeter or reaver lasts for long over a battle area with NC below. Fly in a Galaxy with reinforcements? You must be joking.

In short, what the hell were the developers thinking? What other weapon in the game even approaches this? A chaingun? If I use a chaingun I have to be in the open, in your face, clearly visible to all. The phoenix negates enemy vehicles (ground AND flying), enemy MAXes (any type), has advantages NO OTHER weapon has (firing blind, guided in flight by the user, triggerable detonation, FIRING FROM INSIDE AN AMS CLOAK), and makes a joke out of getting experience for NC's.

Is the solution upping the power of VS and TR AV weapons? HELL NO! You want every combat to boil down to archery?

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(2) Irrelevance of medics.

Why invest 3 points in Medic (or, worse, 5 points total to get the incredibly worthless Advanced Medic) WHEN YOU CAN INVEST 2 POINTS IN AMS? AMS not only lets you get your guys healthy again, it re-equips them, and best of all PROVIDES A POINT WHERE ANYONE ELSE CAN SPAWN IN. In any quantity, forever, so long as you retain control of the AMS.

So, your crouched down on a wall healing a buddy of yours, you being a nice medic self, but it takes him 10-15 seconds to realize you're trying to heal him and stop moving, you're both being fired on, and you die so easily.

If you run up to a fort you're defending and you announce MEDIC available, you're met with silence, or laughter. You roll up to a fort with an AMS and its like you're the allies arriving in Paris. They will throw you a parade.

What the hell were the developers thinking?

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(3) COUNTERPRODUCTIVE engineers.

Only slightly less pathetic is the plight of the lowly engineer. YOU GET TO HEAL ARMOR. Oh, you CAN'T SEE other's armor status unless you're in their outfit. How special.

But wait, it gets better! You spend a couple more cert points and get advanced engineer, and in addition to the cute pocket protector you get to place turrets, mines, motion sensors and a bomb. Only, the turrets are ludicrously easy to destroy, don't hit hard, can't be massed due to location restrictions and best of all PROVIDE AN ENDLESS AMOUNT OF GRIEF POINTS as they hit friendlies. The bomb is worthless since you can place it then . . . WAIT. That's right, you do nothing else while you have that detonator in your hand but WAIT. Oh, and don't bother taking a bomb, sneaking around, finding an enemy AMS and placing it carefully under it, walking away then gleefully detonating it BECAUSE IT BARELY SCRATCHES ONE.

Then lets mosey over to the issue of placement. Want to place a mine in a corridor leading to your CC? Forget it! Want to place a turret to guard an entrance from the inside? Forget it! No, its much better that you get to place everything outside and in the case of turrets you can't place them in an enemy SOI. How ludicrous is that? You can walk up to an enemy AMS and slay them as they get equipment all you want with a freaking AMP but you can't do it with the turret you spent 5 cert points getting. Can you place a turret on a wall or in any location other than the most gentle (and trust me, I mean MOST GENTLE) slope in the game? Oh hell no, that would be outrageously overpowering.

It gets even better though! You get not one but TWO "weapons" to use to fix armor; one to fix people armor, the other to fix everything else. With all the fun you have with deployables, isn't it a shame you need to invest inventory in this as well?

I call engineers counterproductive because WHO WOULD SPEND FIVE CERT POINTS to get these abilities? You could get AI and AA MAX certs, or hacker certs or other worthwhile skills instead.

What the hell were the developers thinking?

[Warborn]

(4) Vehicle problems

Okay, so you're smart and since you want to drive a vehicle in combat you choose to be NC since doing otherwise would be bordering on the insane (see phoenix, above). You buy that all-expensive Vanguard cert (4 points) and get a good gunner to shoot the weapon because lord knows it wouldn't be right that the person who invests in a cert should be able to choose how its used.

So you get into your Vanguard, get your gunner aboard and after running over a few friendlies due to latency (you are in a big fight, naturally, so there is some lag) and head out for glory and fame. You roll to where the enemies are and your gunner is blasting and you're mashing the keys gleefully as you run over infantry you find in the open. Eventually, they (drat it!) figure you out and mass enough force to kill you and you and your gunner respawn.

Okay, so this isn't a problem, it can be kind of fun actually. I love yelling "RUN FOREST RUN!" as I chase down infantry. But the problem looms when you want to use the Prowler or Magrider (read: targets), or Lightning or the other worthless vehicles. Do the developers wonder why you don't see them in combat? Why there hasn't, to my knowledge, EVER been a tank charge with a dozen or more of them rolling over everything in sight?

Why is it every time a tower is charged its a few Maxes, shiitloads of infantry and a couple vehicles AND those vehicles are used by the stealth guys just to make it faster getting to the target? Why is it every time after a base falls and combat shifts elsewhere the vehicle pad is lined up ten deep with guys getting wraiths, skeeters, reavers and basilisks YET YOU NEVER SEE THESE VEHICLES IN COMBAT? I was in a sunderer last night with my outfit (non NC) and everyone was joking about it being a deathtrap, a huge lotto ticket for a couple phoenix users.

Why is it a galaxy can't land unless the surface beneath it is as smooth as the main mirror on the Hubble?

Why is it any vehicle takes damage BRAKING?

Why is it One pebble in your path could very well be a life-altering event?

How is it any of the tanks skid and fishtail like dragracers with imbalanced slicks? The steering in my LINCOLN NAVIGATOR feels heavier.

Why is it the main gun ammo in a Prowler lasts for hours and hours (a lot longer than the tank every will; yes, I'm one of those guys that bought that cert and hasn't yet turned it in to get a cert with any life expectancy) but the light gun is exhausted faster than a fat guy at a bordello?

What the hell were the developers thinking?

(5) Uber snipers
Okay, I admit it, this is a joke. Yes, there are snipers in the game and, indeed, they do get a good number of kills. Since I've played TR for the most part, the vast VAST majority of my sniper kills are merely assisting the NC infantry in their phoenix rearming task (see above). Take away those and I would be left to attempting to kill skittish infantry running from cover to cover, the (very rare, see above) engineer placing some turrets, the turrets that he placed (ludicriously easy) or taking pot shots at MAXes, AMS / Vanguards driving by or the occasional skeeter / reaver.

The big problem with sniping is, unlike real life, making a small adjustment of a fraction of an inch imbalances the gun for a long time. There is no following a target, as you do in real life, since there is no point in tracking it unless they are stupid enough to stop long enough for your sights to settle down. This leaves you with basically keeping the gun motionless and trying to time the lag well enough so you can hit a target as it passes through your sights.

SNIPING SHOULDN'T BE ABOUT TIMING LAG, IT SHOULD BE ABOUT PUTTING THE LITTLE DOT ON THE TARGET'S CHEST.

I would also like to point out that as a sniper I've almost never been countersniped. The single beneficial use I've found in a medical cert has nothing to do with healing others, it has to do with healing myself. Since I know he is unable to one-shot me, we exchange fire. If I hit, he runs I get the chance to kill before he gets to cover. If he hits, I duck behind my cover, whip out the med unit and heal up (or medkit, but those are inventory expensive and poor at healing). Then, we engage again and I wear him down. No real skill, I'm not a better sniper than he is, but he can't win against me alone since I'm always at full health when we meet and he can't kill me.

I would like to suggest that, since the combat system doesn't take location of damage into account that perhaps the bolt driver alone has the special ability of perhaps 1-in-10 or 1-in-15 chance to kill any non-MAX soldier regardless of health via a critical hit to the nads or wherever would be appropriate. As it stands now, I'll charge any sniper and know I'll win in a 1-on-1 since latency means my jinks eliminate his chance to hit me and if he happens to get a golden BB I'll merely sit behind and rock and heal up. I would think twice if there was the ability to kill me, ESPECIALLY if his aim wasn't affected like he's doing a Riverdance every time he moves a milimeter.

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(6) Hackers

No list of the low points of the game would be complete without the inclusion of hackers. The fact that a single player can (and often does) take a 3 point cert and walk into any undefended base or tower and take it over (or out of commission) in seconds is stupid. The fact that they don't even have to bother walking IN to the base in order to pop an entire attack wave out is stupid, as they can simply hack a vehicle pad, pop out an AMS, deploy then the troops pour out.

Not only this, but with a few more points they are invisible, and a couple more they can ride or fly quickly from spot to spot taking over an entire map.

Locate a AMS out in the wild somewhere on a continent and its a hackers paradise. Run to the closest base, hack vehicle terminal, get AMS, deploy it nearby, hack door, hack equipment terminal and you've suddenly allowed an entire outfit to deploy in seconds, grab MAX armor or anything else and take it over. Only do steps 1 and 2 and you get everything but MAX equipment. Or just head over to a tower (see below) . . .

The enemy actually bothers to show up when they see it taken? No problem, suicide out to the ams and wait until they're gone, then rehack. Eventually they'll tire of it and you'll get your exp. Or better, if you have an invis suit don't bother suiciding, just stay in the base in a corner somewhere and wait until they leave the console. Since they get zero experience sitting and waiting (and its boring as hell) you know the game mechanics make it impossible for sustained defense, plus while they are inside you have an AMS outside and might even want to play with them by taking a nearby tower for MAXes to spawn in.

You know because of the way engineers work that once you're inside the base there are no defenses to worry about, no mines to wander upon, no turrets to make you backtrack or try something risky. You also know that because you're invisible and because of the way the grief system works you can work with near impunity in a base teeming with enemies because they fear getting into a friendly fire situation. The occasional guy with a darklight implant? Pure puffery, changes nothing -- you know he won't stay around guarding a console forever.

Then there are towers, ah the hacker's dream building. Why hack a base that requires 15 minutes to turn and the possibility (however remote) of someone opposing you when you can take a tower instantly and immediately pour out the troops. The only thing you need a base for, militarily speaking, is for the vehicles which you can easily get via a hacked pad.

What the hell were the developers thinking?

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(7) ZERGS!

Anyone who has played the game for a day or two quickly comes to realize what every combat boils down to: zergling rushes. No point in getting vehicles since they die so quickly (exception made for the Vanguard, but lets be honest there are much better ways to spend 4 cert points than becoming a NY city taxi driver). Basically, get into your favorite MAX or infantry suit, rush out and kill and be killed. Worried about air power? No way, no one dares to do that in a fight of any size. Worried about being charged by a line of tanks? Nah, who's going to spend the certs?

Are you worried about being sniped? Hell no, not a factor. Concerns about mines, or turrets or not being healed? Nah, small stuff, doesn't affect the fight. Strategy and tactics? Beyond avoiding friendly fire and trying to move forward, not really. There are occasional flanking maneuvers, but lets be honest, the guy you just flanked respawns at AMS a short ways away and is back to kill you shortly.

Do you worry about lack of ammo? HELL no, rearming is as simple as rushing. You rush in, kill some, get killed, you ARE rearmed moments later.

Are you concerned with amphibious landings like Pusan or airborne units like the 101st deploying behind you? Nope, see respawn, above.

See the pattern?

What the hell were the developers thinking?

[Warborn]

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Okay, so I've outlined some problems (and yes, I'm aware they developers have announced some changes like the overdue vehicle terrain damage fix) and now I'd like to outline some solutions and things to think about.

The phoenix has to be changed to be in line with all the other weapons in the game. I'm certain the developers already see this problem clearly and, while there will be some disappointed whines from NC apologists, it will help equalize the teams. It will also enable other areas of the game to be explored, such as vehicles for non NC in combat.

Having only briefly played the Vanu at the start before switching to NC then TR, and since seeing one on a battlefield is in itself an event, I'm certain the developers will be boosting weapon effectiveness for them across the board as well.

Since my main objective when starting the game was to become a support character (medic, engineer, galaxy pilot), I have a lot of experience in those roles, and those combined with other roles like sniping and tanking. As it stands now, medics and engineers are not worth the cert points and without major structural changes to the game I don't believe medic will ever be a valid career path.

It is simply too easy to respawn in Planetside. I've fought solo and with squads in battles large and small, including a lot of fights on Gunuku island in Cyssor. People are charging about fighting and dying so fast there is simply no time to heal anyone, or repair armor. Its far, far easier to park an AMS inside the walls (defenders) or outside (attackers) and respawn as your ammo / armor / life runs out than to bother with any sort of regenerative function. This leads directly to zergling tactics, or lack of tactics really, since there is little point in simply not rushing and 'getting some'.

It is my contention that the only way to fundamentally fix this problem is to limit respawning. To that end, I would like to suggest the following:

When you are killed you are brought to the respawn screen but your choices are sanctuary (immediate respawn), closest tower or base (after 30 second delay), or closest AMS (after 1 minute delay). Instead of large map as the background, a radar-type map is shown with your coffin displayed in the middle AND NEARBY PEOPLE WITH MEDICAL CERTS SHOWN. In addition, towers and ESPECIALLY AMS are now powered by ANT fuel: each respawning character takes 1 percent of an ANT's carrying capacity in fuel. When deployed, AMS have a small structure which rises from the top (still inside the cloak) which is the power pile indicator showing how much energy is left. NOTE: Bases are immune from the fuel restriction here; this takes into account their larger size and better equipment.

IN ADDITION, however, basic level medics now have the ability to regenerate fallen comrades, from a short distance, but when that happens their coffin disappears and they are naked. They have to return to a terminal or AMS to get rearmed. Those who choose to be advanced medics not only reanimate four times as fast, but also return the equipment to the fallen soldier from his coffin automatically, and can do this from further away.

Naturally, medics of either stripe should be able to heal while moving (perhaps the advanced medics can do this at longer range).

These changes do a number of things to the flow of the game. First and foremost, it makes an entire class viable and valuable. Second, since respawning takes longer the closer you are to combat, the temptation to zerg rush is diminished. There eventually will be a point where you take damage and you say to yourself 'Hey, I'd better call for a medic or engineer to help me out here' so you don't have to go back through the respawn cycle. Third, since towers and AMS now require fuel, it partially invalidates the hacker "pop tart" strategy of grabbing an AMS and coming out with a swarm of attackers. Fourth, it helps spread out the battle a bit more, since both sides will be eagerly searching for enemy ANTs and galaxies trying to bring in fuel (hey, that sounds like a supply line, doesn't it?) in order to strangle an attack. Fifth, it brings the added dimension of "rear lines" into play, where it is important when attacked to try to get people behind them to cut off roads and bridges where they could bring reinforcements in. This might actually give vehicles like Harassers, Marauders and the like a purpose. Finally, it makes bases a huge gain and a huge thing to defend compared to towers or AMS since they dont have the same respawn fuel problems.

As for vehicles, I suggest that at least as far as the light and heavy tanks go, the armor on them is jacked up severalfold. A heavy tank takes 4 cert points to drive, requires at least one other person as a gunner, and you can only get them in bases, and they have respawn timers. MAX suits take 2 or 3 cert points, require no additional people, you can get them in bases or towers, they run faster than tanks, they are infinitely more maneuverable, they can go inside, and they have respawn timers as well. Naturally, light weapons of any kind should do no damage to tanks, even with AP bullets (remember, AP is designed to pierce vests, I doubt that people in M1 tanks in Iraq care if crunchies outside are using teflon bullets in their AKs). Gun emplacements on buildings need to have their damage to tanks cut in half or more and maybe miss once in a while.

As for reavers and skeeters, their rocket damage needs to include splash damage, but I think their fragility now isn't much of a problem, especially when the phoenix is changed. I know there has already been talk about their incredbily bad gunsights.

Engineers, ah yes. In Tribes 1 & 2 this was my favorite class to play and I find it difficult to adequately express my disappointment with them here in Planetside. The bomb packs are worthless, the motion sensors next to worthless. The turrets are marginal at best (again, grief magnets, wayyyyy too easily destroyed, placement limitations are absurd, etc.) and the mines are basically pot luck. You occasionally get to repair a generator (wow, what fun) but for the most part you scurry about, inventory full of placement devices, getting shot at, run over, spindled and mutilated. All the while you could be out in a Max suit with less certs ripping people to shreds, or with less certs hacking any base in the game, or with less certs driving any vehicle in the game, you get the idea.

Do you get experience as an engineer? No, outside of squad experience you really get very little. In the same 90 minute period where I managed to acquire 800 grief from my defensive turrets, I got less than 200 experience from kills. Hell I could have got a prowler and run over two infantry in 90 minutes and done better.

My suggestions to improve matters for engineers are: first and foremost, let them place any equipment anywhere, inside buildings or out. Second, double or triple the armor on the turrets and let them be placed ala Tribes on walls, overhangs, etc. Not only does it look cool, it gets people to look carefully as they enter a place. Third, have two bars above each person's head... when you're in a squad you have red for health over blue for armor, why make that different in person? Fourth, ONE GUN to do all engineering with, period. And, make it the small one so we can actually carry a rifle. Fifth, give the engineers a pair of thermal binoculars they can purchase (and only engineers can use) which lets them see cloaked targets like infil suits and AMS. NOTE: it has to be equipped as a weapon, so you can't use it while firing. This gives the ability for an engineer to lead a team through a complex and "debug" it from infiltrators.

Naturally, like medics, engineers need to be able to repair while moving and within a short range to account for lag and people not understanding what you're attempting to do for them.

Finally, hackers. First, to avoid the absurdity of them hacking a terminal in front of people (our hacker was doing this last night, with some success believe it or not) and not being seen, make any use of a device partially decloak them as if they were being hit. Its an infiltration suit after all. Second, any terminal hacked anywhere in an unfriendly base needs to alert the same as if a base is hacked. I mean, think about it.

Third, while any tower should be able to be hacked at any time, a base (and ANY of its terminals) should not be able to be hacked while its towers remain in control of the owner of the base. In other words, in order to hack a base, you must first control (not just hack) at least one of its towers. I would also put a short timer, perhaps five minutes, on a tower the same as a base (owner can't spawn there any more) since it is absurd to have the "take tower, add water, out pops the assault wave". In addition, when a tower changes sides DUMP THE POWER STORAGE. Fine, you've taken it, you want to spawn there you'd better bring up an ANT. Better yet, don't let a base be hacked until at least one of its towers has been taken AND HAS POWER -- this alleviates the problem of the solo hacker somewhat, since he needs to be driving around his very visible ANT if he wants to solo a base. Best of all, stipulate that if the tower that was hacked in order to go on to a base is retaken, the subsequent base hack is invalidated. Gee, this might mean that a squad would need to go in, secure a tower, probe and secure a base then hack it, that might involve teamwork. They might need to fly in a galaxy with an ANT aboard, drop off a variety of guys to do a variety of things (even an engineer to supply defense throughout the tower, a medic to revive guys lost while the tower doesn't have power, the list goes on and on) and actually work as a team to accomplish a goal.

[Lexington_Steele]

Way too long to read. Long posts are good for the devs to read, but not for players to read.

There is an obvious slant against the NC in his post.

The TR and the NC are fine. (What this guy doesn't realize that the phoenix has already undergone 2 significant nerfs). Some small tweaks may be necessary, but nothing major needs to be done here.

The only problems I see are possible making the VS more competative. Part of this may have been/will be solved by fixing the punisher bug. I don't know if this bug also effected the Lancer, however, the vanu should have a better AV weapon than the TR.

The last time I used the lancer, I found it to be garbage. The lancer did too little damage, and it's fire delay (you will understandwhen you try the weapon) is too long.

[Camping Carl]

I really hope some of the devs saw that post, there's lots of things in there they should strongly consider.

[Warborn]

Way too long to read. Long posts are good for the devs to read, but not for players to read.

Then don't read it. And while you're busy not reading it, don't comment on it either. I read the entire thing and I think it's a fantastic post, so unless you have some chronic ailment which prevents you from reading documents exceeding 500 words, I don't see what your problem with it is (apart from the fact that you may not really care about "TheoryCraft" as they WC3 Beta folks call it, but then again, if that's the case, you're out of your element, Donny).

There is an obvious slant against the NC in his post.

Not really. I play TR and VS myself, but I don't really have anything against NC, and I'd play them too if they weren't the most popular. From a balance perspective, especially as a Prowler pilot, I agree with all he said regarding the Phoenix. The Gauss is also quite accurate none the less, and could use some tweaking for sure to compensate for that.

But, you didn't read the post(s), so I don't really think you're in any position to comment anyway.

[FliggenMan]

thanks war, and thanks Vor for that awakening. he actually makes sense out of his rules which i can't really say for those dev team members. You know War, if u know this guy or know any way to forward this to a higher power (and not just "hope" they see it) then please do so as i'd much rather have a belated release than a release of a major fixer-upper.



the only thing i'd have to disagree with u on is the weapons up on the vanu. they need to make the vanu weapons very precise, but not stronger, as the VS's stregnth lies within their ability to hit you first, and their "sure shot" style of weapons. the one weapon isay to change for the VS is the lancer, please up its RoF cuz its just sad.

[Ubernator]

I agree. The guy brought up some EXCELLENT points that the devs should consider.

He was just waaayyy too whiney for my tastes. You can get what you want without blatantly insulting the devs.

[Strijder]

Very well thought out solutions. Yes, he needs to work on his analysis wording a little so the dev's won't get turned off, but he did have excellent detail.

I haven't been ingame, so I don't want to comment on the validity of his complaints. However, I was wondering about his tower / fuel solution. If the attacker has an AMS with limited fuel, and can only use towers after refueling them, it seems as if the defender, with their unlimited base fuel, would be at a significant advantage. If he gave the base limited fuel, the battles might turn into pure "rabbit" style games where each side only won by destroying all the opponents' ANT deliveries and thus forcing the base to run out of fuel. While this would be fun to do on occasion, it would shift the focus of the game from huge base attacks to small teams doing ANT search and destroy missions.

Possible solution? Use limited-fuel for AMS's and towers like he mentioned, but increase fuel capacity or decrease fuel usage somewhat (or add a slow power regen that would only support reasonable spawn rates) so that ANTs only need to show up every couple hours or less. This would still prevent lone hackers, make teamwork and ANTs critical, prevent standoffs, and provide a front-line / supply-line concept, but wouldn't make ANTs the sole focus of everyone's efforts.

[FraBaktos]

I read that one awhile ago, and while I havn't yet played beta, it was an interesting read. Considering myself and the rest of my outfit are going to be Vanu, I sure as hell they fix them up in the next "megapatch" they are releasing.

[FliggenMan]

btw, is there any1 that wud mind recapping what he said, i understood it, its just im having trouble remebering it.:rolleyes:

[FliggenMan]

ok i will try:eek:

[FliggenMan]

OMG I DID IT AGAIN

[Tieom]

Well, Vor has some good points there, but I strongly disagree with towers needing resupply - there are too many of them.

Anyways, here's an idea -
Spawn credits. Sort of like tickets from BF1942, but you have your own personal supply.
You have a credit pool with a maximum of 60 - it regenerates by one every minute.
Revived by medic - Zero credits.
Respawn at sanctuary - One credit.
Respawn at base - Two credits.
Respawn at tower - Three credits.
Respawn at AMS - Four credits.
Optional - A controlled bio-lab on the continent reduces respawn costs by 1 credit.

If you die a lot, attacking from an AMS will quickly exhaust your supply (15 times in the pool), and then you either have to wait a while, respawn at a lower-cost area, or get revived.

Assaulting a tower via AMS would require an initial numbers advantage, but they'd whittle down and start slowing in their respawns (Unless they have a few competent medics) and then you could take the blasted thing.
Anyways...

[Venoxile]

Originally posted by Tieom
Well, Vor has some good points there, but I strongly disagree with towers needing resupply - there are too many of them.

Anyways, here's an idea -
Spawn credits. Sort of like tickets from BF1942, but you have your own personal supply.
You have a credit pool with a maximum of 60 - it regenerates by one every minute.
Revived by medic - Zero credits.
Respawn at sanctuary - One credit.
Respawn at base - Two credits.
Respawn at tower - Three credits.
Respawn at AMS - Four credits.
Optional - A controlled bio-lab on the continent reduces respawn costs by 1 credit.

If you die a lot, attacking from an AMS will quickly exhaust your supply (15 times in the pool), and then you either have to wait a while, respawn at a lower-cost area, or get revived.

Assaulting a tower via AMS would require an initial numbers advantage, but they'd whittle down and start slowing in their respawns (Unless they have a few competent medics) and then you could take the blasted thing.
Anyways...

I think that's a very good solution, but vor's solutions compared to zoolooman's are garbage. Go check out his site, his matrix idea would make planetside like an actual war, instead of capping the same bases over and over. He makes a solution to form a "front line" for every continent that allows it to be pushed back and forth via matrix between the bases. Bases can only be taken one by one in a line, so no lone hacker can go and take a bunch of bases behind the front lines. It also fixes the problem of defense being boring in the bases far from the front line.

[Matuse]

I think it is pretty stupid that a hacker can hack the support terminals for a base without controlling the base itself.

Better option would be to make a hacker able to DISABLE the terminals, so that the base owners couldn't use them, but in order to take them over, the base needs to be yours.

Would prevent hackers from taking over the vehicle pad and popping out an instant AMS without taking the base first. However, it would still make hacking the terminals useful, because it would deny their use to the enemy until they were able to re-establish control by a hack of their own.

[FliggenMan]

well eq terminals and health terminals are not that helpful to a solo hacker considering the already have all the equipment they need and their health... welll they really dont have much. They are either dead or alive, because if yer talking about a solo hacker than he has to be an infiltrator.

As for Tieroms idea, its very good and not complicated. Which is good. As for the idea Venoxille was reffering to, that also sounds interesting, but those are game altering conditions, and would take basically forever, reshaping everything about the game.

[Venoxile]

How would it take forever? Just have bases beyond the front line of fighting be locked to hacking.

[FliggenMan]

o, well it sounded more complicated, especially when u use the word matrix lol:D

[MrVulcan]

Originally posted by Warborn
.......

Very good post, I have an idea, what if you changed the respawn itme, and had all weapons do like 75% of the dmg they do now (25% reduction) (and help the sniper some)? That would allow for more time to live, etc (in adition to the fixes above that is)

[Venoxile]

Originally posted by MrVulcan
Very good post, I have an idea, what if you changed the respawn itme, and had all weapons do like 75% of the dmg they do now (25% reduction) (and help the sniper some)? That would allow for more time to live, etc (in adition to the fixes above that is)

I don't think too many people want infantry to take as long to kill as it takes to kill people in ut or quake... Personally i'd want a mix between cs and ut2k3, right about in the middle of those two.

[MrVulcan]

well, perhaps not quite ut health, but sometimes drastic things like that will fix many problems, I remember an exact same problem with the 1st SFC, and so the doubled the shield values of all ships and it fixed it. I am just sayting that since there are so many drastic problems, with manybasic areas, something drastic may fix it, perhaps not, but just an idea ;)

[Venoxile]

Originally posted by MrVulcan
well, perhaps not quite ut health, but sometimes drastic things like that will fix many problems, I remember an exact same problem with the 1st SFC, and so the doubled the shield values of all ships and it fixed it. I am just sayting that since there are so many drastic problems, with manybasic areas, something drastic may fix it, perhaps not, but just an idea ;)
An intelligent one at that, but I just think zoolooman's whole base to base matrix system would make this game 10 x better then it is right now. No, i am not a beta tester and i don't know shit other then the propaganda all the beta testers who are on the forums are posting. But I think having a front line instead of random bases being hacked all over the continent is much much more fun. Also, zoolooman's continent lock idea is the best one i've heard so far. If you haven't seen it yet, it goes like this:
Once a continent is locked by your faction, the warpgates on that continent cannot be used by any other empire. That continent is locked until an enemy faction locks a different continent. After that there is a 12 hour period where they are both locked, and then each continent's warpgates are the only ones that can be used to get to the other locked continent. So the 2 factions that locked those 2 continents would then defend the continent they locked and attack the enemy locked continent until one empire locked both continents.

[MrVulcan]

Originally posted by Venoxile
An intelligent one at that, but I just think zoolooman's whole base to base matrix system would make this game 10 x better then it is right now. No, i am not a beta tester and i don't know shit other then the propaganda all the beta testers who are on the forums are posting. But I think having a front line instead of random bases being hacked all over the continent is much much more fun. Also, zoolooman's continent lock idea is the best one i've heard so far. If you haven't seen it yet, it goes like this:
Once a continent is locked by your faction, the warpgates on that continent cannot be used by any other empire. That continent is locked until an enemy faction locks a different continent. After that there is a 12 hour period where they are both locked, and then each continent's warpgates are the only ones that can be used to get to the other locked continent. So the 2 factions that locked those 2 continents would then defend the continent they locked and attack the enemy locked continent until one empire locked both continents.

I wont get into the debths of why tonight (too tired right now) but I will be more than happy to explain my reasons in the morning, so here it is:

zoolooman's ideas wont be practical. Sure, some of them would be nice, and they are very well tought out ideas, but the overall idea of the frontline, and ubber lock down wont work in this game. I do think that ther has to be some things for lock down other than what they have now, and the front is not a bad idea itself, however the game would not let it happen. You would end up with a wwI senero, a trench war, never actually going anywhere, when you know where the enemy has to hit next, you can prepare, there will not be suprise, etc. It turns a massive offence game to a massive defensive game and you would reach a point where nothing would change much, and all the battles would occur on 2-3 islands.

Once again, I am not getting into any detail, just my base thoughts right now, I will post more tomarrow ;)

[Matuse]

Put the matrix in such a way that capping base A makes it possible to cap bases WXYZ. Having it go in singular order would be bad, removing all offensive flexibility. But if it made 3-5 targets available, it would still create a front that covered a substantial area.

Also, I'd make the fronts on a per-continent basis, so there would always be a reason to go elsewhere...if you had to take one continent before going to another, that would be massively lame.

[simba]

Originally posted by Matuse
Put the matrix in such a way that capping base A makes it possible to cap bases WXYZ. Having it go in singular order would be bad, removing all offensive flexibility. But if it made 3-5 targets available, it would still create a front that covered a substantial area.

Also, I'd make the fronts on a per-continent basis, so there would always be a reason to go elsewhere...if you had to take one continent before going to another, that would be massively lame.
I dont want only 1 base 2 b able 2 cap at one continent but like 4 or 5! Not only 1, that wouldent be fun, there would only be driving ants/tanks/transports/reinforcements/ANYTHING to 1 base and only 1 base if it would b like that.
It would b better if it was a couple of bases like 4 or 5 that u could hack.



I also agree with vor, wot is the devs thinking?
I have always thought SOE was kinda crazy.
The biggest problem should be pheonix flying everywhere and almost no vehicles being used except the AMS, vanguard, wraith and basilisk.

[MrVulcan]

I dont think that you should have the forced front line thing at all, why? Simple: Fronts evolve naturally, and will occur just because of the proximiaty to your warpgate, and other bases you have. If you capture the base behind their lines, it will most likely be reacaptured quickly, but also it creates some dynamic situations where you are forced to guard all aspects of your empire or else you will be outflanked. It also makes it so that you dont have just 3-4 bases that can be taken, and thus everyone wont horde at those bases and make it impossable to take. When you know where the enemy has to come at all, you will be able to mass troops there, and just hold out, so nothing will ever change. You have got to be able to be able to issolate and flank bases, it is one of the best things to do in a war (and is done all the time in RL) so you find a strong spot, and just go around, getting everything else around it, so that you can move in from all directions and stop their suply lines.

Sure, with only a couple of 1000 people online it would be better to have fronts, but assuming that there will be 10,000+ per side, I do not think that there will be any problem keeping the world populated enough to react to bases being taken.

When things are let to boild down to trench wars, where it takes hours to take inches, it is not fun.... it gets old fast....

Just my ideas :)

[Sarah Jinstar]

Definately agree with Vulcan on this one. With more people in the game every day, it opens up way more options for how battles will progress, flanks, sneak attacks, mass rushes etc.

If everything was just a dig in and fight for inches on every battle it would get old extremely fast.

[Matuse]

but also it creates some dynamic situations where you are forced to guard all aspects of your empire or else you will be outflanked.

No it won't, because guarding a base that isn't under attack would be BORING. Who would pay to be bored? A force that hacks a base behind the lines would have to be small to avoid detection, so when the hack message comes through it would be fairly easy to gather up enough people to stomp on the invaders.

That's a shitty way to run a railroad, constantly having to respond to small-team (or solo stealth) quick-hacks.

The problem with the idea of fronts developing by themselves, is that there are too many ways to bypass such fronts when they aren't required. HART, Warpgate, Skeeter, Wraith, AMS, these all allow people to laugh at the concept of a "front" if it isn't compelled by some aspect of the game.

As for trench warfare, lacking the ability to create trenches, and with the weaponry available to root people out (something which was noteably lacking in WW1), it isn't very likely.