PS, the Matrix and its future

[MrVicchio]

I started a thread once, about how I felt the game was... too small... or just kinda... felt that way ya know?

Well. After reading the whole Matrixing gig... I realize something... it going to get worse, the feeling the game is small.
Being restricted as to what base you can actually GRAB is going to limit the number of available bases to take.... this means MORE people fighting over the same realestate. This is good, this is also very very bad.


GOOD: Because we are gonna see more defined fighting, instead of take a base, run and lose it to the stelather hacking dewds.

BAD: Because if you thought the TK in the CC was bad now... just wait till this goes in. You feel your squads done "all the work" where as Joe and is squad take offense to this and let you know it by capping you and your hackers. CC TKing is going to spirial even HIGHER, if the Matrix goes in... period. This is not a good thing, and I cannot think of a solution to the issue.

If you make a TK on a hacker 200% TK points... you just hooked up the "ninja hackers"

If you TAKE TK OFF, it not only hooks up the Ninja Hacks, it also makes CC hold that much more rediculuos.

If you make it so that the squad that has done "the most" as determined by the server... what defines the most? Could this add lag?

So you see, I am leery, but hopeful relaly, this all works out.

[Gerico]

They could easily remedy it, by all squads in the base receiving BEPs and all squad leaders getting CEPs then it makes no difference who hacks and everyone in the base would of most likely helped anyway.

[Winja]

Originally posted by Gerico
They could easily remedy it, by all squads in the base receiving BEPs and all squad leaders getting CEPs then it makes no difference who hacks and everyone in the base would of most likely helped anyway.

Sounds like a sensible answer

[Gerico]

It could cause problems if someone just turns up, but hell, they probably had to fight to arrive in the base anyway, less base caps as well with the matrix system, so it won't be unfair.

[MrVicchio]

That is a solution, but not one I have heard the "devs" metion to my knowledge.. it could solve the TKing.

[Hamma]

I'm going to wait and see what its like before i comment.

[Hijinks]

They seem to indicate that you can still cap bases behind enemy lines. The procedure would be something like this:

1. take out generator.
2. damage base equipment so it uses up NTUs repairing itself
3. base goes neutral
4. hack
5. fill up NTUs
6. sweet sweet exp

That way a lone hacker can't do it, but a full squad sure could. It would be nice if an advanced engineer could empty the NTU silo directly (over a fair amount of time).

[BladeRunner]

I agree with Hamma.. I have trouble taking any of these "strong opinions" against the lattice seriously at all, because none of us have tried it. And even when we have, it's still in the works, the first of many changes (as they've said). So why get your panties in a twist? Let's try it, if there's something wrong with it, they'll notice and work on it some more. Or if it's a total bomb, they can always *gasp* remove it..

I for one am really happy that the devs are so willing to make such a drastic change, for the sake of trying it out. Don't discourage this :D

[LesserShade]

I agree MrVicchio. I won't be sold on the idea until I check it out obviously, but you are right, the interfaction competition for the CC is going to be hot and there are some squads that are going to be pissed. Gaining CEP is going to get quite a bit harder now.

[Hellsfire123]

Am i the only one with a squad where no one wants CEP? Ive seen promtion battles with my squad, people playing hot potatoe with squad leader position so they get BEP instead of CEP.

I like the Matrix, it means ill be assualting defended bases (more BEP), when im behind enemy lines i can assemble a squad with relative safty, and when im defending a base, someone will actually ATTACK it.

It might lag at first, and it will take alittle getting used to, but it will ultimatly help the game play.

[Hamma]

On paper, I am not a fan of it at all. But on paper is totally different than in game.

[OdlyEnuf]

So the "Matrix" idea is a go? I hadn't been reading up on it the past few days.

[Hamma]

A version of the matrix is in the next patch, yes

[Led]

I love it. It will finally give me a reason to fight.

[Happy lil Elf]

Of course you fail to aknowledge that the Dev team has been working on a fix for the CC TKing before they said this was going to be implimented. You also don't mention that they're already looking at how BEP for base capping is distributed.

Quite frankly you're arguing against something that you haven't tried, Mr. V. Not only that you're going into it with the attitude of this is going to ruin the entire game. I'm sure that won't flavor your reaction to it at all once you actually get to try it either :rolleyes:

Hamma has said he's not a huge fan of it on paper, but seems much more willing to look at it with an open mind in game. Talking about how horrible it will be when you haven't tried it is illogical but not only that, you're a beta tester. Things change and the reason you get to play this game for free long before it releases in retail is to try out those changes.

In short, quitcherbitchin and give it a try :p

[Nitsch]

Originally posted by OdlyEnuf
So the "Matrix" idea is a go? I hadn't been reading up on it the past few days.

Morpheus: "This is the world that you know .... It exists now as part of the neural active simulation that we call the Matrix. You�ve been living a dream world, Neo...."

"As long as the matrix exists the human race is not free."

[JonnyK]

i think that each matrix coming off of a base should link to 2-3 different bases, so that the battle doesn't have to be all out on one base, but there can be a few battles, and then maybe a squad would still be able to attack a base where there aren't so many others, and it could give infiltrators more to do, with this new matrix idea it seems that infiltrators will have a lot less to do.
but i really can't wait to get home from this godforsaken place (school) and hopefully play with the new patch

[Airlift]

One of the potential exploits that could render the latticework useless is a mule account in another empire used to crank things out of the vehicle pad and equipment terminals in order to circumvent the hacking restrictions. You can't stop them without TKing. I hope this is something that has been considered by the dev team, and I'm sure that if it hasn't yet it will be when the game goes live.

[Happy lil Elf]

You'd have to have 2 accounts for that I think since you can only be on one faction per server can't you?

[Vis Armata]

I can't believe it...for once, I agree with Mr. V... :D

Yeah, I was hoping that either small changes to exp points or just a change within the community ("hey, why don't we just defend today - its not all about points, right") would be the preferred course, but the short-attention spans won. I'll try it, but I still have reservations.

[Nitsch]

I think you could "Open another front" by attacking a generator deep in enemy territory and defending the base and letting it go nuetral. I can see some nice battles comming out of this.

As it is now, there is very little base defense going on. In the squads i get in, they just want to hop from one unoccupied base to another... that's no fun. Especally for me, since combat engineers are best at base defense.

[offline]

All your characters have to belong to the same faction on a chosen server. So mules wont happen.

[Nitsch]

I don't think you will see many 2nd account muling going on. This isn't EQ or DAOC.

I think it would be easy to catch someone using the "second account making tons of vehicles exploit".

[Airlift]

Yeah, mule account, not mule character. If you ever played EQ, you know that there is that special (short bus) type of player that plays more than one account at the same time to receive added benefits. While it is a lot less feasible to play two simultaneously in planetside, it is certainly not outside the realm of possibility. Further, it would only take 1 such mule in a squad or outfit to do this (though it might take more than one to drain the silo in a reasonable amount of time by spawning things).

Also, it should be noted that destroying Gens does not revert a base to neutral, only running out of NTUs will cause this.

[Nitsch]

If you destroy the generator and all the terminals.... that will drain the energy. I am assuming that with the increased "health" of the generator, it will take more energy to fix it.

[Airlift]

The thing is, we don't know the NTU consumption rate, so we can't say whether destroying everything once would cause a reversion to neutral. On the other hand, we do know that it takes half an hour for a generator to self-repair. That means that even if it will cause reversion, it's going to take a long damn time to do it.

I think it might be a good idea to cause the base to start bleeding NTUs if the gens are destroyed, but I doubt that is the case now. The thing is, if an exploit is the easiest way to cause reversion, there will be a lot more people doing it.

[Tendain]

Waitaminute, waitaminute. Are you saying that the devs are actually implementing this 'matrixing' idea? In the next patch? :huh:

I thought that it was just a thought being kicked around on the OF's, but, no, the devs are actually putting this thing in the game?

Okay, now to say that I'm not a fan of this idea would go beyond understatement into outright lying.

Now I can see so many things wrong with this idea that it would probably crash this forum were I to list them all (well, maybe not that many, but still quite a few), but the one that I'm worried about the most (aside from the sheer illogic of it, and the pending copyright lawsuit [ ;) ]...) is how it's going to effect retaking a continent that's been locked. Now since you have to have a base to take a base, what happens when you have no bases? Can you just take a tower as per the original idea, or would you have to take the base nearest a warpgate or something, thereby removing the aggresor's only advantage, that they can attack where they're least expected?

Of course, even if they do decide to keep this idea in the game I'll still play it, for the simple reason that they're got me so hyped for this game that I'd play it if they changed the name to PlanetQuest and added elves. But I would certainly be disappointed in them. They were doing so well up to now...

[BladeRunner]

Tendain all your points are covered in the original patch notes about the "lattice."

I think it might be a good idea to cause the base to start bleeding NTUs if the gens are destroyed, but I doubt that is the case now. The thing is, if an exploit is the easiest way to cause reversion, there will be a lot more people doing it.

Gen destruction doesn't cause bleeding, but in the patch notes it says that the generators auto-repair will drain the NTUs. Hell, SJ even makes it as plain as day, that a new tactic for "punching continent lock" will be destroying terminals and generators, forcing auto-repair and therefore "bleeding."

Seems some haven't actually read the DEV's statement. Remember, this is their first interpretation of the original "matrix" idea, and it's only the first of many parts of the new system they want us to try. I still support the trial 100%. If I was a paying customer, maybe I'd feel different ;)



In a nutshell, the Lattice lets you determine where you can attack next.

a) You may only hack a facility that is connected, via the lattice, to a facility you already own. (�Hack� links are shown in gold if they are your Empire, grey if they pertain to other Empires. Links between same-Empire-owned facilities are the correct color for that Empire�red for TR, blue for NC, purple for VS.)

b) If, for some calamitous reason, you own NO facilities, anywhere in the world, you can always hack the facilities connected to your secure warpgates at your Sanctuary. (Example: If you are TR, you can always hack Orisha on Cyssor because it connects directly to the TR Sanctuary Warpgate.)

c) To hack into a locked continent, you must own the facilities connected to the warpgate on the OTHER continent first. (Example: If you want to hack Leza on Cyssor, and Cyssor is continent-locked, then you can capture Sina on Searhus first. That will give you a hack link to Leza and you can try to punch the continent thereafter. (NOTE: This makes the lattice truly global in nature so, Commanders�stay aware.)

d) You may hack ANY neutral building, regardless of its position in the lattice. Therefore, ANTs become even more crucial.

e) NTU consumption has been changed. Buildings no longer deplete NTUs while doing nothing at all. NTUs are now consumed ONLY through auto-repair of equipment within the building (terminals, wall turrets, generators, etc.) and respawns. Therefore, if nothing is going on at the facility, it will never go neutral. NOTE: Enterprising squads might try to destroy equipment in an enemy facility with low power, hoping to consume the last NTUs and get the ability to hack the facility �outside the matrix�. This is another way to "punch" a continent lock.)


edit: Now that I think again, I kinda like the idea of "destroy and conquer." I think that would make a battle more enjoyable if you had to rush in destroying everything possible, killing all enemies and cutting off their respawns. Then, you must defend the "ruins" long enough for NTU to drain, perhaps during this time sending an ANT expedition (creating supply lines, which I've always thought would be cool), and hopefully bringing the base back online as 100% yours. I think that would be a lot more exciting as a battle scenario than the current. Which for the most part, in my experience goes like this: Kill the enemies, put a bunch of MAXs in the CC, and patrol around looking for people who ran back. After the 15 minutes, it all magically becomes yours. The former battle scenario would last a lot longer and, quite honestly, I'm very faithful that the Planetside team can make it the most enjoyable experience (work out the issues the smart people are bringing up, because there definitely are some).

[Nitsch]

Another stratagy might be to go and blitzkrig several bases...destroying the generator and all the terms. Just to make them lose power. Then go hack the one that dies first.

[MrVicchio]

Happylilelf,

If your BOTHERED to read my post, I gave voice to my concerns, what I can see from here, not having tried it, to spark discussion. As HAMMA said above, there is paper and there is in game. I DID NOT BITCH, I stated concerns, and why I have them. I also, at the end of the post, tossed props to the devs, but you obviously didn't get that far.

I am a HUGE fan of this game, thus the PSU Staff position. Were I not a deep drinker of the PS Kooladie, I would never have pursued nor taken said staff position.

That being said, as Staff, that does NOT mean I am bound to propagandize everything the devs do. I may disagree, or have concerns, and I voice them as a GAMER, a PLAYER. I have not, nor will I bash the devs with spam posts bitching. That is not my intent, nor is it my intent to win Fanboi Of The Week. I call it how I see it. I see "areas" of concern. I brought this for discussion, to gain insight on how OTHERS see the Matrix, and to broaden my understanding of the system.

[BladeRunner]

I appreciate you doing that Vic, because I can at least hope that the devs will read the discussions here at PSU and take them to heart more than at the OF. They seem a lot more civilized.. At least most of them :D

[EarlyDawn]

I'm fairly sure the stopbitchinaboutit part was a joke.

[SuperGlue]

personally, I like the Lattice idea. It seems to me like it will further differentiate itself from other FPS. In most FPS you do the same thing over and over but just on different maps. The Lattice idea will make defined battle lines and i think make the game more enjoyable and unique. Established battle lines will also make each cert more valuable. Instead of just having a bunch of maxes and assault infantry; you will need medics, engineers, people to keep the supply line flowing, etc. I think it will make the gameplay much more dynamic.

But once again
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V

[Happy lil Elf]

The matrix only affects bases. I haven't seen anywhere where it says you won't be able to capture towers, which is yet another argument to those saying behind the lines capping will be impossible. As for breaking continental locks, yes you will only be able to cap a bas near your matrix (ie right next to the warpgate). HOWEVER you can still cap towers and bases that lose power which again doesn't make it impossible. Personally I love this, continent locks should be hard to break, otherwise whats the point?

[SuperGlue]

I very much agree with Happy lil' Elf. Even though he/she may be blunt at times, I think it is needed :) Mr. V did u notice the :p after the part about stopbitchin ?? :love:

[MrVicchio]

Sometimes, you gotta step up and clear any misconception ya know :p

[Zoolooman]

If latticing or matrixing or whatever you want to call if fails horribly, look to the following mistakes in implementation.

A. The bases don't connect to enough nearby bases. There should always be, except in the rarest of circumstances, two or three bases connected to one you own.

B. The population cap on the continent is too high, causing all bases on the continent that can be contested to be so heavily populated as to be near impossible to capture.

C. People forget that you could go and shack up at a base one step behind a base your team has hacked and will control soon. Once controlled, you start a hack at this new base, and you should already have built up a defense of useful levels to protect your fresh hack.

On paper, I think it could go either way. The secret is in the geography of the game as to how it will work out.

And lastly, if it really does turn out to be such a bomb that it must be removed, you can ban me for pushing such a bad idea so heavily in the beta forums. Then you'll feel better. ;]

[LesserShade]

I loved your idea of hard locks zoolooman. At this stage of the game, continent locks are meaningless.

[Happy lil Elf]

The "quitcherbitching" is a joke, originally from Southpark, I forget honestly.

Yes, you voiced your concerns but no where did I see you mention that the devs are working on your concrens, namely both TKing and Capping BEPs. I also haven't ever seen you provide an option as good as this one to stop the, while amusing, rather idiotic way the games plays now. You go to one undefended base to hack it and in most cases your hardest resistance comes from the other faction that's trying to hack the same base.

No one defends the way it is, unless they're trying to defend a hack. That's not what the devs want. This is supposed to be a war. In a real war people hold bases because they need to. In PS, no one does because you get a lot more from capping a base, although if you were defending against a large scale assault you could theoretically get more than 2.5k in 15 minutes. By all means if you have a better idea, post it. I'm more than willing to listen :)

[Airlift]

Gen destruction doesn't cause bleeding, but in the patch notes it says that the generators auto-repair will drain the NTUs. Hell, SJ even makes it as plain as day, that a new tactic for "punching continent lock" will be destroying terminals and generators, forcing auto-repair and therefore "bleeding."

Seems some haven't actually read the DEV's statement. Remember, this is their first interpretation of the original "matrix" idea, and it's only the first of many parts of the new system they want us to try. I still support the trial 100%. If I was a paying customer, maybe I'd feel different

Yes, I read the statement, more than once. It does not say how effective the scorched base approach will be, or whether you can drain a full silo by one round of auto-repairs (which still takes half an hour to do). And in any case, I am just doing my job as a beta tester by speculating on what I think will be the pitfalls of the system may be. As I've said before, we don't know yet and I'll give my opinion on it after I've seen it in action. I also noted that this was only the first in a series of changes.

I am still skeptical that what comes out of the matrix will really be a big improvement on the game, but I hope that I'm wrong. I feel one hundred percent certain that the problems they are addressing with this cap restriction system could have been just as easily fixed with less drastic changes to the metagame.

[Happy lil Elf]

The "quitcherbitching" is a joke, originally from Southpark, I forget honestly.

Yes, you voiced your concerns but no where did I see you mention that the devs are working on your concrens, namely both TKing and Capping BEPs. I also haven't ever seen you provide an option as good as this one to stop the, while amusing, rather idiotic way the games plays now. You go to one undefended base to hack it and in most cases your hardest resistance comes from the other faction that's trying to hack the same base.

No one defends the way it is, unless they're trying to defend a hack. That's not what the devs want. This is supposed to be a war. In a real war people hold bases because they need to. In PS, no one does because you get a lot more from capping a base, although if you were defending against a large scale assault you could theoretically get more than 2.5k in 15 minutes. By all means if you have a better idea, post it. I'm more than willing to listen :)

[MorphiasAC]

The only thing I think I would like to change about the lattice idea, is that is runs through the whole world. I would much rather see any empire be able to hack a base connected to any warpgate. This way each continent will have it's own fronts instead of possible 4-5 global fronts, you could have many more continental fronts. However, I am certainly willing to give the global lattice a chance and it may work wonderfully; this is just my own little tweak I might make to the system.

[Tendain]

Tendain all your points are covered in the original patch notes about the "lattice."

Ah, yeesh, thanks. I missed those. :o Silly me, I really should remember to do my research before ranting, ne?

c) To hack into a locked continent, you must own the facilities connected to the warpgate on the OTHER continent first.

Hmm. You see, this is my biggest problem with this system: it removes most of the effectiveness off the surprise attack. When the enemy know where you can and cannot attack, it makes it rather hard to catch them off guard, yes?

Now, there's this 'bleeding' tactic, but from what I'm reading it'll take quite some time before the NTU's run out, even if the silo's like half empty (half an hour for the auto-repair to kick in? Am I reading that right?). When you add the fifteen minutes to take control of a base after hacking it, the attackers are going to be sitting on their hands for a while. And since the enemy empire gets a message when their gens get attacked, there certainly won't any shortage of defenders to stop the attempted sneak attackers.

I suppose, as several people have said, that we'll have to wait and see how it plays out, but when a concept is this flawed on paper, I don't hold much hope for it being very good in practice.

[quiet]

Originally posted by Airlift
One of the potential exploits that could render the latticework useless is a mule account in another empire used to crank things out of the vehicle pad and equipment terminals in order to circumvent the hacking restrictions. You can't stop them without TKing. I hope this is something that has been considered by the dev team, and I'm sure that if it hasn't yet it will be when the game goes live.
You don't need a mule, just an adv hacker :D.
Of course the NC and TR will probably just prefer to blow stuff up.

[AcidCat]

Originally posted by Tendain
When the enemy know where you can and cannot attack, it makes it rather hard to catch them off guard, yes?
.

Have to keep in mind that you can still ATTACK anywhere. Just because you can't capture a base doesn't mean you can't attack! And attacking in the rear to bleed down a base to neutrality - even if you don't succeed, this is a tactic that will at least draw soldiers from the front back to the base, thereby helping your front line troops.

Anyway, I think the Lattice idea is fantastic, but of course we need to test it out to see what happens once the bullets start flying.

[penpen374]

I personally, love the idea behind the lattice set up, but, since I am not a beta tester, nor has the idea been really tested in the game yet, it's impossible to say how good it really is.

Let me list the reasons why I think it could be very good howerver.

1. Stops bases swtiching like mad.
2. Gives incentives to defend, loose a base, loose your ability to expand.
3. Creates a frontline, but still allows behind enemy lines actions.
4. Promotes tactics on a large scale!! Sneak some people behind the fronline to draw defenders away from the front, all out assaults, the list goes on.

On thing you have to realize, is that it's not like Base A --> Base B--> Base C--> Base D. You don't only have one option. It's more like from Base A you can go to Base B, C and D.

Anyway, just my opinion.

[MrVicchio]

I am still trying to get the patrch and the time to try this out,.

[Ubernator]

I figured I would post my thoughts on the matrix from the official forums. It was a decent post, but just my opinion of the nice things the matrix may have to offer.

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For those that just loooove taking over bases behind enemy lines, remember that tons of people were taking over undefended bases solely for xp points. They thought they were really sneaky going behind enemy lines, but the truth was, there weren't any lines at all! On the other hand, there were also a lot of people crowding up onto single bases (eg. Gunuku). The matrix system can still allow quite a few bases to be attacked at once, but also somewhat protect the bases that nobody really wants to defend. Thus, you have the large crowds spreading out a bit, and the solo hackers forced to use *gasp* teamwork.

Furthermore, it has already been mentioned that there IS a way for 1337 commandos to go behind enemy lines. Now, it will be a bit more of a challenge and mean a whole lot more.

A commando squad would be the talk of the continent if they could cap a base behind the enemy front lines and open up two fronts. I see a big need for commando ANT blockades also. Imagine the thanks that a squad would get if a front lines base fell to neutral because not a single ANT could penetrate the Reaver/tank/infantry platoon. Think of the difference one squad could make if they prevented the enemy from locking down a continent by capturing just two bases behind enemy lines and holding them long enough to turn the tide of the battle. The possibilities are endless, but only the truly elite squads will be able to pull them off.

So be happy. The lattice system prolly needs a little bit of tweaking, but in the long run it opens up many challenges for both the commando and the front-lines soldier.
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