Competitive outfit league

[Vrim]

I as well as many others come from a game called infantry also on Sony Station. In infantry, there are publics that aren't 'for real'; they attempt to balance the game by making the numbers match but we all know that this doesn�t always work. It doesn�t get very competitive and the people I know just play that for practice or to socialize.

The reason most of us love(d) infantry was that there were phenomonal leagues. There was no shortage of able leaders and i know some former infantry league admins are already playing planetside (myself being one of them)

In planetside, it never seems to be 'for real.' Most battles are won due to larger numbers and superior equipment. When someone kills me, I can blame it on how his gun (blasted chaingun!) is better than mine. I never really feel much satisfaction in a kill because I know he could be some loser who never played before.

I would like to see a separate server where there is a controlled environment where two squads hold nearby bases and the winner is the one who captures both bases. You would need special referees with abilities to force initial spawn points. These referees would also need to lock out non-participants and keep everyone in line before the game starts. A spectator mode of some sort would probably be needed too, or a ghost character. Perhaps you would give everyone BR20 because in this special server you wouldn�t really level up much. Maybe you could limit the number of each class/weapon IE 1 medic 2 MAX 1 heavy 1 special 1 sniper....

Most successful FPS have clan leagues. Some may say this is a different type of game, and I agree it is different. However this does not mean a league can not work. It is the perfect opportunity to make a new kind of league, I don't know if 30v30 has ever been done before in a league. I really see the potential in this engine to make a squad vs. squad league. Personally, it would increase my interest in the game astronomically.


-Vrim
Leader of the Titan Militia
http://www.infantry-sector.com/tm

[Airlift]

So you want planetside, but not MMO... :huh:

[InuYasha]

Or at the very least, that's what he thinks he wants now. :D I want to see how many people get sucked into the MMO aspect after the release who are skeptical right now, should be interesting.

InuYasha
Waiting very impatiently for his chance to crush his enemies, MMO style

[Vrim]

I have been playing for a few weeks now, its just too easy or too hard, and my 10 mates dont seem to be coordinated and it doesnt really matter. I would like to see 30v30 or 50v50 to use the grand scale features, but once you throw random retards into the mix, then many strategies go out the window.

As of right now, if you are coordinated chances are the enemy is not and you'll walk all over them unless they have superiour numbers. This only feeds a basic level of coordination and there will never be any advancement as long as one of the sides is incompetent.

[TheGreatCarbini]

I used to play infantry, untill they made it pay to play, I would have payed and kept going but it had already been free for so long I was way to used to it to pay all of a sudden hehe. Infantry is great though, and if you haven't played it you should go try it, I think they do a demo mode thing now where it kicks your out after like 5 min if u dont pay.

[1024]

Ask yourself this:

What's the point of a MASSIVELY Multiplayer First Person shooter?

[Vrim]

right now, massively means minimal strategy and organization due to dependance on numbers and certifications.

[DarkDragon00]

Right now it isnt as organized cuz it is beta, only like 5 members of my outfit are i beta, and the new recruits i got just for beta are online randomly!

My squad is roxxor though, the team quality is so much fun when u have a well cordinated attack force.

While all u peeps are attacking the front, we are the ones who slip in the side door, or drop right above the base close to the CC.
If you dont have a well coordinated squad, then ur one of the ones getting smashed at the front of the base.

[Happy lil Elf]

Join a sizeable outfit /shrug. When we get three squads (25 or 26 people is the most we've had on at once I think) nothing stops us ;)

[Nasal.Infection]

Random retards are god shock troops, but individual squads really do turn the tide. The name of the game is to kill the spawn points, and a well placed tower raid or AMS deployment will 100 percent turn the tide. I have seen it happen, the shock troops respawn at a new strategic location while the enemy has a longer run. It isnt necessarily numbers but respawns, how fast can you get back to point A. Faster than the enemy? then you are winning.

[Big Bro]

Originally posted by Vrim
right now, massively means minimal strategy and organization due to dependance on numbers and certifications.

I will admit that massive numbers in one area greatly affect how an outfit/squad organizes their assault. But I don't particularly agree with what you are saying.

First, certifications have very little to do with it. Most people can get BR5 or so within an hour or two. That being said, You culd get Reinforced Armor, Medium Assault, and Heavy Weapons and be an effective soldier. Just because someone else has 15 more cert points and is more flexible in no way should affect "strategy and organization".

My outfit on Dalton has 16 players in it. Most of the time, it's just me and my one organized squad. We have effectively participate in large battles, as well as help our empire by flanking the enemy and capturing towers for our brethren. The lattice system has really encouraged these massive and often unorganized assaults, but I think that any organized squad can effectively play a part in furthering their empire.

Massively means just that...A LOT of people. If you are only looking to have a squad of people make an impact, you will need to be more creative in PlanetSide. Also, just because you don't have control over all the variables, doesn't mean that PS needs a referee. That's what war is about. Making order out of chaos. Reacting to the situational circumstances. Trust me, it's fun and just fine the way that it is. If they have some sort of competitive server, I'd like for it to be clan invite only, but with no changes to the rules, nor any referees. That way only the very serious people would participate in it.

[pendulem]

I agree with vrim that it would be fun to have a dedicated server for leagues and the such. I dont think he is looking to change the mmo aspect of the game but a give us all another means in which to enjoy the game.

[Vrim]

You all talk about the power of a large outfit or quality squads and that is exactly my point. That is all you need to be victorious. You need strategies that are one level above basic zerging, you also need the right equipment.

If nobody has an AV cert and they have maxes or tanks, then you're just screwed no two ways about it. You have to focus so much energy on using like plasma grenades assuming you can get close enough that it is a serious handicap. I dont have a problem with this, i like how its rock paper scissors and the progression of BR adds another element. I do disagree that a BR5 guy can defeat a BR15 guy, if they are of similar skill. the br5 guy might only have the empire rifle and sweepershotgun while the BR15 guy might have a chaingun. It takes a very skilled player to defeat a chaingun at close-medium range with say a guass or a pulsar.

However, my problem is that the strategies never evolve. A basic strategy consists of scouts who notify others of nme position, then u have a substantial diverse group to fend off any incoming attackers. Extravegant planning is not needed in the game. You dont see any moves inspired by alexander the great or ghenghis khan. The strategies will never evolve unless the competition matches or exceeds these primitive strategies and this is very rare if it happens at all.

If you looked at this game as a RTS like C&C or Warcraft then it would be so obvious as to how elementary the strategy is. Elite RTS gamers know that during the fight, you have to constantly manage movement of soldiers, depending on your weaponry there are so many possibilities of strategies. If you just send them into the fight and just have more soldiers than the other team, then where is the strategy in that? Or if you just have better trained soldiers, or better equipped soldiers. Either way, you aren't really utilizing strategy, since theoretically each empire is equal, each time you have more/smarter/better soldiers on one front, you have weaker/stupider/worse soldiers on another front. The ability of the commanders to strategize past basic zerging skills is not required

There is more strategy involved in every single FPS i've ever played because they have clan vs clan matches. Large scale tactics are very rare and its meaningless because you are fighting a crowd of random retards anyway.

-Vrim

[Manitou]

That random factor of un-squadded people and people not associated with a certain outfit running around is a factor that fits nicely into the "fog of war".

The thought of a "league" atmosphere seems to make my skin crawl. It places controls on one of the aspects of the game that I really enjoy and challenges me: the random player's influence on the outcome of the battle. I don't want any controlled environment here. I don't want the league atmosphere. With any league there has to be rules and guidelines. That tends to limit the randomness that I personally think is one of the most appealing aspects of this MMO...

[Holo]

Ok, let me try to clarify what Vrim's saying.

Manitou, you're the leader of an outfit right? CDL I believe. Now, aren't you interested in seeing how your outfit stacks up against some of the other outfits that play Planetside? That's what league play is about, finding the best. That and league play is usually 100x more competitive and complex than play in Public MMO servers. Let me use an infantry example, since it is what I know ;)

In Infantry we have both public and league servers. In the public servers all the "outfits" in the game run around and kill and stuff, they build their name in the pubs but basically the strategical aspects are basic in comparison to the league. I am a leader of my Infantry outfit, and I know I've spent many long hours sitting down formulating various ambushes, movements, flagging routes, etc. The idea of league play is not to take away from PS's MMO nature but to add to the competition level.

In PS we'd all be participating in the war during the week, running around with our outfit and generally wreaking havoc, as we are intended to do. But, say for an hour or two every weekend 2 outfits get together and duke it out one on one. Just to see who's better and for some genuine hardcore competition. Mowing down newbies is all good and fun, but how about some hardcore battles between two highly experienced outfits? You know the level of competition in those battles will far outweigh that which can be found in pubs. Of course, after the match we'll all exchange our "gg"s pack up, and head back to the Public PS servers and get right back in the war where we left off. The wins would be recorded and posted for all to see.

You see, Vrim is not trying to take away from the MMO aspect, just add a little private competition between a few outfits, some old fashioned, competitive fun. ;)

Questions? Comments? Dirty Jokes?

[OneManArmy]

I've been in so many battles where an organized outfit can turn the tide. I've even been in some (mostly when I'm playing solo)where I've wished there was an outfit or two fighting along side me, simply because all the random people playing assaulting a base looked like water hitting a cliff, they had no effect...

but take an outfit (like the one im in :D) and add them into the mix and BAM!! you've got galaxies doing hot drops over bases.. tanks rolling in and drop pods screeching downward like a rain of fire from hell...

The thing that people an't use to yet is the teamplay aspect of this, With so many people playing you really do need to be in an outfit to play this game at the level it was meant to be played. quite honestly it can be a little bit boring by yourself....

This is the teamplay game Teamfortress 2 promised to be only on a much larger scale, problem until PS no game truly pushed teamwork like PS does, so either people are going to learn or their gonna move on to another psuedo teamplay game, and play deathmatch all day long.

[Airlift]

This is a legitimate request, but not within the bounds of what Planetside is or wants to be. The game you are asking for has been made over and over again and it does not require a monthly fee. What is the point of connecting thousands of players over ten continents if you are going to lock down pairs of bases to only a few people?

If you want a game where you can pit two teams against each other in a game of capture the bases without the massive scale, pick up any random FPS. Planetside is all about scale. We keep hearing the complaint that individual skill is unimportant compared to something that is being abstracted out as "numbers and certs". This complaint is not only invalid, but it runs contrary to the whole nature of the game.

Welcome to massive. Winning comes down to large scale coordination and yes, numbers. It's much more than that, but one thing it will never be about is the individual or his tiny group.

[Happy lil Elf]

Wasn't asked of me, but I'll answer anyway

Now, aren't you interested in seeing how your outfit stacks up against some of the other outfits that play Planetside?

No. You know why? Because I've done that before, it got old.

[Freedon]

Originally posted by Vrim
There is more strategy involved in every single FPS i've ever played because they have clan vs clan matches. Large scale tactics are very rare and its meaningless because you are fighting a crowd of random retards anyway.

-Vrim You couldn't be more wrong here. Because you will be fighting such a large number of players the requirement for tactics is much higher. Unless you pick some base out in BFE where you a fighting a few loners. Get in the big fights when your squad. Then when some other group of guys drops you all like a cheerleader,s skirt on prom night, you will know you just ran into a group of guys who actually used tactics.

It sounds to me like you haven't been in many big battles. See how well your tactics work when suddenly a tank shows up behind your lines and destroys your AMS. When a couple MAXes flank you how are you going to react? The chaos that the MM adds actually require more tactics then the 10 v 10 of a lot of other games. Because the more players who are introduced the greater the unknown.

[Zartax]

I've not been in beta, but I have a feeling that with the betas limited number of players, characterwipes and stuff, people haven't had enough time to join outfits for real. If you give the game some time after release I'm sure almost every player in the game will belong to an outfit and, thus, creating your outfit wars but in a larger scale, which is what this game is all about.

If you want to be successful in this game you HAVE to think large. You don't have the time to plan the capture of a base for hours, because the enemy will move on. You have to hit the base fast and hard, only to move along to the next one before the enemy can regroup and take it by surprise. It's these large scale strategies that makes this game.

If your avarage teamplay FPS (say, CounterStrike or Tribes2) is compared to StarCraft or C&C, then Planetside is Civilisation or RISK.

In Tribes2 every player is an individual unit that affect the game and it's outcome quite much. The player is part of a team of, say, 30 player who have to cooperate in order to succseed.

In Planetside, the player is NOT the elementary, lowest unit. He is LESS than that. The SQUAD is the lowest unit that can influence the outcome of the game. The single player can not achieve anything without the support of his squad. The squad in turn is part of an outfit, and more importantly, an EMPIRE. The empire consists of several squads, who have to cooperate in order to succeed.

It's all on a larger, more MASSIVE scale. You have to cooperate not only IN your squad, but between squads. It's another kind of strategy.

[Holo]

once again, it's not about altering the style of play. It's about competition between outfits, just a little fun on the weekends...

Read posts before you reply to them

[Melov]

Haha. League play would be really awsome. It proves the best of the best. Squads and players! Visit http://www.skirmishleague.com to see just how a legue would work. SL is one of the very sucessful leagues in Infantry. And since PS is EXACTLY like Infantry you could probably base the league exactly off that. Or go CTF style (http://www.infantry-sector.com/ctfpl which seems to be down) and allow for different weapon setups and such. It'd be fun. I thought PS would have league play anyway. Pfft the sound of not having it makes me not want to play. Leagues are a great way to spice up a game. Hell I don't think I'd be playing Infantry if there wasn't leagues. LX you should start talking with a Sysop an get one of these going. =P There is no doubt, Sony would definately support league play. It always brings people to games. As holo said it won't alter gameplay at all. 90% of sucessful leagues use their own server with settings setup for league play. Btw it took me forever to get the damn email to post. -_-

[Hamma]

It is an interesting concept.. but it really doesent fit the persistant world aspects..

Anything is possible, post release will be an exciting time :D

[LeonStrike]

I think the idea of Outfit vs Outfit is a good idea. It would be cool though to have a server where there are tournaments hosted by SOE. They could be Outfit vs Outfit, Squad vs Suqad, and single PvP. It would be a nice break from the massive chaos and excitment of regualr servers. I mean, think about it. It kind of gets old waiting for then next expansion pack to come out. Why not take a break? You and an enemy, in a large battle arena. Waiting for your opponent to make his next move. The duel could take anywhere from 1 minute to 1 hour. I don't know about you, but that sounds like fun to me. I do agree that the MMO aspect does require a lot of strategy, but this would be a different kind of strategy. How else could you personaly kick Hamma's ass? :D

[Vrim]

I guess it isnt quite MMO but a 50v50 clan battle has never been done before. I think it would be pretty cool, you might have to team up with a couple other outfits to fill up the 50 but it could still work

As for "Because you will be fighting such a large number of players the requirement for tactics is much higher. " I agree there are more tactics with larger numbers, however, with random retards it is quite common that the enemy uses the single tactic of full speed ahead. The time when MAXes catch you from behind is a rare thing and is usually the result of lost maxes or maybe a galaxy drop, this isnt what i would call tactics because i dont think it is coordinated with the rest of anything. If i go in the back door am i using a great strategy? No, the commander isnt necessary at all to tell me to flank. Plus you can only tell your 10 people to do things with the current system. That often is like 1/5 of the total force in the area. So if 1/5 of the force is setting up an ambush or something sneaky, the other 4/5 are just mass rushing and the enemy may never encounter the ambush and if they do, it might only be one random loner.

The diverse and random attacks are not strategic. They may mess you up and wreck what you have going, but they aren't necessarily part of a greater plan that was thought up by a great strategic commander.

[InuYasha]

I wouldn't mind seeing a "Best of the Best" outfit war thing, like they did with Everquest. Something that only happens every once in a while, and isn't ongoing like the rest of the war is. Might as well wait and see what the Devs have up their sleeves for us at this point, though. :)

InuYasha
Anticipating a game where his character won't be useless...

[MrVulcan]

Having only 1 outfit fighting another over 1-2 bases is pointless, there are 100s if not 1000s of games that do that. You can see if your outfit is better when you meet the other outfit on the field and crush them.

This is a game with 1000s of people playing at once, that is what makes this game so great.

I am not going to pay 12 $ a month for anohter copy of UT or C&CRen, or CC, etc

This is a world wide war, not jsut some trite 12 on 12 base cap that has been around for years now.

I do not want this, it goes against everyhting this game is built for.

If your outfit is good, it will show, and you will be able to take any base or spot on the map you want, when you want.

We do not need this.

Just my thoughts anyway ;)

*** P.S.
Most major outfits can easily fill 50 spots, or more, the [FC] has about 57-60 enlisted right now, and some others have well over a 100.

[Airlift]

I could see where it could be fun to spawn VR-type continents and throw 50 vs 50 parties, but then you are pulling a lot of good talent away from the persistent game.

[Holo]

For an hour at most...

They'd be played like matches

like TM vs CDL or something

We'd all get together in one spot, battle over a base or group of bases, and see who wins. That's the entire point, just a little highly coordinated league play.

Some of you people aren't even reading these posts are you? Or at very least you're reading but not comprehending.

Think of the difference between a football game you go out and play in the park with your buds and anyone else that wants to show up and a NFL game. You play with your buds you just run out and screw around for some fun, you go play in the NFL and you got playbooks full of different tactics and you play in a highly organized and coordinated environment.

1 or 2 hours a week, that's all a match would last, after that you go back to the regular PS servers and get back with the war. It does not go "against everyhting this game is built for," it simply expands the gameplay for people who get sick of mowing down random newbies in their highly organized and coordinated outfit and want a little bit more in the way of competition, once a weekend, an hour at a time.

[Holo]

bump