I hate to rain on the parade--Outfit competitions...

[EVILPIG]

Everything in the post-release notes sound great, except outfit competitions. Outfit competitions will cause PS to become a TK-fest. Don't we have enough enemies to fight without fighting each other. Outfit competitions create a "sporty" air to PS, liek a giant online Paintball game. I feel that outfit competitions will take away from any sense of unity that each faction has.

PS created a greif system and now they are asking for a grief-fest. If an outfit decides it doesn't like you, you can be killed over and over again with little penalty to them if they take turns. How much fun will you have always looking over your shoulder while trying to fight the enemy. Hell, they don't even have to kill you, just damage you a bit to ensure that you die to the enemy faster. Once all this starts, even if PS takes the outfit competitions away, the mood of PS will be forever tainted. They'll have to turn to the "no freindly fire" method.

Just my thoughts.



If outfit competitions were limited to enemy outfits only, that would be cool.

[Nitsch]

I'm curious how they will implement them too.

[Unregistered]

The Army vs Navy football game every year is a great game, and you don't see them out "griefing" each other.

I think it'll be fine.

[justmust]

I dont think a bit of friendly competition would be that bad for PS

[Harps]

Quarterly Outfit Competitions: Conduct special events featuring structured competitions between outfits. Games like "Capture the Flag" and others can be played.

The key word is structured it isnt just going to be random .... They are ganna prob lay out a area for it. Its prob ganna be organized like a CAL league match... very strict

At least thats what i got from it when i read it

[EVILPIG]

Originally posted by Unregistered
The Army vs Navy football game every year is a great game, and you don't see them out "griefing" each other.

I think it'll be fine.


Sorry, but you just don't get it. The Army and Navy don't greif on each other when they're in the feild on a real Op. This is easy to do in PS. There are no real consequences and the greif system is very forgiving. Like I said, everyone in an can take turns killing you and nothing bad would happen to them, but you'd still get shot dead from behind non-stop. How much fun could you have? And, how much would this interfere with you character developement.

[Holo]

This is what it will most likely be like pig.

They will probably set up another server for these structured events and announce the time when the games will be played. Moderators will probably run each game in a very structured and organized fashion. After the games everyone goes back to their respective servers and continues playing PS with the knowledge that their outfit may be the best CTF or Deathmatch style outfit. I honestly don't see what you're trying to get at. Nothing wrong with some competition ;)

This will definetly knock up the replay value of PS greatly, these matches will be a very good thing. I don't know where you're getting "grief-fest" from...

[LeonStrike]

There will be special places and times to have competitions. It won't be like "oh, you are being bad in our outfit, i think i'll kill you a lot", it's more like "Hey, bubby, want to see whos outfits better? just for kicks?" "sure billy, then we can raid a base in celebration" It will be a break from the same old base capping. It will also add more replay value, because you will be able to take on a specific group of guys, CS style :p

[Harps]

yah i know .. Theres nothin wrong with it .. i really dont see how your getting the grief in this .. Did u not see the Structured part in it .. Structured does not mean u can go take on a outfit on your side anytime that you want. Its prob going to be exactly like ladder match, where you actually have sked times to play against another outfit

[EVILPIG]

1st, I don't know if you guys are in Beta or not. But this is already happening. You still don't understand. Of course the competitions will be seperate from the "regular" game, otherwise it would disrupt the flow of the game. The problem is that it promotes animosity between outfits that are supposed to be on the same side. Ideally, everyone would be totally cool and keep the competition freindly and leave it to the organized events. Unfortunately, this is not how internet communities work. Even in Beta, we are already seeing outfits ordering their men to TK certain individuals because they are in other outfits or they simply don't like them. That is counter-productive to what the gameplay is about and what each faction is trying to accomplish. It may sound cool on the surface, but in reality it "ruins" someone elses experience completely. That is unhealthy fo PS because if someone is not having fun, they are likely to quit which takes revenue away from PS and means less resources for game improvement. it's not what I want to see, but I only see tis leading to PS being "ruined" without a greif overhaul, or the removal of freindly fire--which I wouldn't want.

[Harps]

ok now i see your point ( you should of pointed that out in the 1st place :D ) Im sure they will find a way to counter it if not then i agree with u

[Big Bro]

Outfit competition will not promote TK.
Outfit competition will not dissuade TK.
Outfit competition has nothing to do with TK.

There is NO logical reason to TK. No game mechanics support this behavior. People that TK are a$$hat$ for the most part.

Except for me, of course. :D

Only TK'd once, and that was because some guy was jumping into people, getting into their face, shooting into the floor by people's feet (griefing to some degree even), spamming the broadcast, running around with knife in secondary fire mode, and basically being obnoxious. Everyone in the room was telling him to knock it off and STFU. The cake was when he jumped on top of a MAX and said "Ride 'em cowboy! YEEHAW!" I couldn't handle it any longer. I normally have zero grief, so I didn't mind whipping my chaingun and pasting the poor guy. I don't consider that a real TK. That was more like "tard control". Everyone in the room was like "Great Shot", "Excellent", and other assorted cheers of delight that the tard had been eliminated.

Morale of the story:
Outfit competition is a cool idea. TK is NEVER acceptable...unless you are acting as the "tard police".

[Hamma]

Originally posted by Unregistered
The Army vs Navy football game every year is a great game, and you don't see them out "griefing" each other.

I think it'll be fine.
:lol:

I am a little skeptical on the whole idea too. But I don't have enough information to form an opinon just yet.

[Zartax]

I still don't get it. Why would an outfit try to kill members of another outfit in their own empire? That ony gives the grief and less points cause of friendly fire. Always better to kill enemies than friendlies, right?

And if it is going on already, I don't think that a competition will ever make it worse. Will people be so angry that someone else won that they will start killing withing the empire? Outfit organized?

I think if this becomes a problem, the devs will take care of it. They probably have some statistics that show haw many time an outfit has killed another outfitmember, and if this rises to unproportional level, they will get corrected or likewise. Don't you worry, the devs care for us. :)

[Mold]

I think you are exagerating this a little bit. I mean, perhaps this could be the answer to all the people who want to kill someone from another outfit in their empire. They could take it out in the competitions ad fight like men. Anyone who intentionally kills someone from another outfit in the same empire everytime they see them is plain idiotic (althought im not saying there arent idiots in the game that would do this) but they would do that no matter what system was in place.
Personaly i like this idea for a couple reasons.
1) promotes people to actually join outfits which i think is a great thing and improves gameplay 10x when you play with someone you are familiar with.
2)gives the standard FPS player some sort of Victory and Acomplishment, and an opertunity to prove their skills, which many people feel is missing in this game.
3) a place to challange that outfit that has the most points to see if they are realy that good.
4) the possibility of having a much larger (100 vs 100) battles of capture the flag, and other popular game modes.

I realy would like to know more about how they will be doing this. Especially since outfits vary in size.

[Navaron]

It's probably done based on outfit size, or you can enter so many people to represent your faction. I'm sure it's "offworld".

[Franchize]

EvilPig,

Outfit competition will not create TK'ers, they are already out there. Accept the fact that some people are plain a$$holes, and there is nothing you, or I or the developers can do about it. The simple fact is that there are people out there, who can only have fun at the expense of others. Get used to it, especially in an online game community (reference: EQ). The thing that will make or break any online game is that the ratio of respectful, mature players who just want to have fun, outnumbers these idiots.

My point is, that is why the grief system is in place. If you continuously kill your own teammates, you get locked down. If this ruins their experience and they quit, so be it. Good riddance, I say. I don't think that there enough of these boneheads to impact the development of the game (at least I hope not), and if there are, I will most likely not play the game long.

[EVILPIG]

I keep seeing you guys asking "why would peolple TK?". BECAUSE THEY ARE MORONS AND THERE ARE MORONS in the game. There always is. Fine, don't believe it is a possibility and a current truth. Time will tell and then I'll bump this post with "I told you so".:p

The greif system WILL need to change, or freindly fire will need to be eliminated.

[Spinnaker]

playin americas amry i have actually been at the mercy of the greif system in that game some times and it works pretty well. it all works on honor, u gain honor after getting objectives and killing guys, liek 10 poijnts for enemy 50 for obj and extra fr certian feats, but if u shoot a guy u get -120 POINTS THE FIRST SHOT and they stack up 40 evry other, kill'm and u get a nice -200 in addition to ur -'s and if u kill too many ppl u go to jail and a -350 points, and when it's 1000 points to gu up and u screw up bad enough to go to jail u end up loosing honor, and belive me when u start up a new accoutn u start at 10 but there are ppl with honor 3. so why not make the greif system like that? where a few offencees u lose xp, then if u get pretty bad u loose certs, but if ur a just a complete jerk u loose rank and ur charecter is swiped, this is kinda harsh but look at it in the army, 1 wrong move and ur freind has 4 shots in his back, so dont bitch that it would be too harsh, raido for ppl's positions or sumtin, but hat is my idea. oh and uh coo lida on a league i can't wait to see that

[LesserShade]

I can't say that I know how the Outfit competitions will be implemented, but I just assumed it would be something offworld. If they can pull it off I think it could be a great idea. FPS and clan competion go hand in hand.

[Big Bro]

Originally posted by EVILPIG
I keep seeing you guys asking "why would peolple TK?". BECAUSE THEY ARE MORONS AND THERE ARE MORONS in the game. There always is. Fine, don't believe it is a possibility and a current truth. Time will tell and then I'll bump this post with "I told you so".:p

The greif system WILL need to change, or freindly fire will need to be eliminated.

No offense, Evil, but I don't see how people being morons is pertinent to the topic "I hate to rain on the parade--Outfit competitions... ". Outfit competitions are a fine idea (depending on how they implement it), regardless of how much of a moron many of they players are.

I don't think people are refuting that there are TK'ers, I think they are refuting that Outfit competitions will somehow promote this behavior.

[EVILPIG]

Originally posted by =NCG=Big Bro
No offense, Evil, but I don't see how people being morons is pertinent to the topic "I hate to rain on the parade--Outfit competitions... ".



How could you if you take that one post out of this thread's context as a whole.

Planetside is the best thing ever (IMHO). Outfit competitions are a cool idea, but will they benfit the game? I think not. We have already seen "MORON" TK'ers who victumize peolple simply for being in a particular outfit. The concept of Outfit Competitions breeds the sentiment that we are against each other. This will lead to more TK'ing. I am not speaking of solo TK'ers. I am speaking of outfits who order their men to TK certain invdividuals or other outfits on sight. This is completely counterproductive to what any of the Factions are trying to accomplish. The greif system is not adequate to handle this. I am OL of the 666th. We currently have about 430 members. If I say, "All 666 kill Joe-Blow on sight', Joe-blow is gonna die over and over and over again and we will not even flinch at the greif cause it will be dispersed around the outfit. We have already seen it with another outfit who believes that we are competing and not working together. They ordered their men to TK ours. We feel this is lame and do not TK theirs. They refuse an alliance. Now PS is considering creating the perception that we are enemies to our freinds as well? What will this lead to. You can sit there and say "It won"t happen" all day and night, but open your eyes and your mind. Someone will do it, and others will be more likely to do the same if we create this "competitive" environment between groups that should be fighting the enemy together.

As I said, time will tell. But mark my words, with a greif overhaul this is the future of PS.



***switches dead-horse beater to "off"***



-PIG-OUT

[Big Bro]

I didn't take your post out of context, and you still haven't convinced me of what you are saying.

It boils down to this. You say that Outfit competitions will promote Outfit TKs. I say I don't believe that will be true.

The concept of Outfit Competitions breeds the sentiment that we are against each other.

Of course the competitions will be seperate from the "regular" game, otherwise it would disrupt the flow of the game. The problem is that it promotes animosity between outfits that are supposed to be on the same side.

As you've pointed out before, there are MORONS that play all games. When these morons tell their teammates to kill other people from other outfits in the same empire, that's a terrible thing. I don't agree with TKing in general, and I don't see how any aspect of the game mechanics promote this. I especially don't see how talking about an Outfit competition system will promote this.

This system was briefly mentioned, and no specifics have been released. How can you possibly have such a strong opinion about this? No one really knows what the specifics are! As I said before...

Outfit competition will not promote TK.
Outfit competition will not dissuade TK.
Outfit competition has nothing to do with TK.

I'm waiting to be convinced otherwise.

[Franchize]

Evil Pig,

Then don't participate in the Outfit competitions. I am sorry that another outfit doesn't like your outfit and is killing the guys in your outfit, like I said and you agreed there are a$$holes out there, and I'm sorry but like I said, they will always be there, whether or not there are outfit competitions will not change this.

I assure you, that me and my friends will never participate in TK'ing under any circumstances. The End User License Agreement (EULA) will more than likely have a section about prohibited behavior (ie. generally irritating other players) and if activities like this take place you can petition the GM's to have these players spoken to and possibly banned if there is a trend of this type of behavior from them.

I understand your point and your concern, and it is valid. It sounds like you have had similar experiences as I have in MMOG's, and like you I am hoping that Planetside will be different.

[Revolver]

You all are being pretty damn naive, with the exception of Pig, who I've noticed is the only one out of you to view things realistically. Mind you, I'm not saying optimism is a bad thing, but when you look at something that can ruin your gaming experience, you need to look at it from all angles. Hostility WILL happen. It WILL promote a sense of competition (not the healthy kind) among a faction. Not necesserily directly, which is how some of you seem to interpret it, but through other ways. I can invision an outfit (lets call them "Outfit A") wiping the floor with another outfit (a.k.a. "Outfit B"). So even when the competion is over, Outfit B will most likely not have a very strong liking of Outfit A. I'm not saying that they will blatantly go into search-and-destroy mode, I'm saying that wen Outfit A needs Outfit B's help, Outfit B will probably refuse Outfit A. And yes it can lead on down to TKing, and that's what makes this competition a bad idea.

And for those of you who mentioned Army vs. Navy football games, that's apples and oranges. The U.S. Military is trained to view every friendly soldier as a comrade, regardless of how you feel about them. All PS players are "trained" to do is shoot something that looks enemy-ish. Or if you don't like it.

And if that doesn't convince you, then stop looking at the glass half-full, and just look at every outcome. I know that all of you are smart enough.

[CrazyMike]

I think you guys are reading too much into this.. all they will probably do is copy what Everquest did. They will hold competitions within each empire to win you the right to represent them on your server for a "best of the best" type competition. The top three teams fight it out and they announce which empire rules the server.

Competition does not equal Tking.


CrazyMike

[Big Bro]

Yes, I see your point. I don't agree with it, and I think you're being unreasonable about as much as you think I'm being naive.

Your viewpoint is similar to the viewpoint that playing Monopoly encourages cutthroat capitalism and a "do-whatever-it-takes" attitude to getting ahead in the world. It's evil and playing that game is just a plain bad idea. We don't want to promote that kind of behavior.

You are taking a very simple and possibly valid idea and turning it into da devil. It's ideas like this that fuel gun control and crap like that. It's not the GUNs that are the problem, it's the people!

"Guns don't kill people, I DO!" :lol:

[Revolver]

Trust me, if you got to know me, you would never associate me with pro-gun-control beliefs.

And what you are saying makes no sense. You didn't debate my opinion, just attacked me in a creative way.

Give me something to debate. I'm not going to respond to attacks on my character.

And please, stop using generalizations. The monopoly thing is something called "Red Herring"--a form of fallacious logic.

I don't mean to incinuate anything, I'm just asking for some valid reasons.

[Chanfan]

I think he did raise a valid point, with the Monopoly example - but it should have been stated non-personally. But in any case�

Yes, I do belive there are folks out there that will get out of hand, and the competitions might aggravate that behavior for them.
However:


I think those people will cause problems in any case,
I think the potential fun to be had is greater than the threat of problems,
I think that not having competitions would be allowing them to control and remove our fun, rather than coming up with ways to limit and control problem players (or outfits).


The community should be self-policing for outfits. If you have a TKing player in an outfit, kick him. If you have a TKing outfit, other outfits should spread the word, and just not work with them - and report them.

It might be possible to track outfit vs. outfit grief points, or outfit vs. player grief points. I do understand that you have to realize that some folks, or even outfits, will TK and cause problems, and you have to think of the worse case scenarios for this and make sure it's livable for the community. I don't think it's the most likely scenario, however.

[Big Bro]

Deal. You stop calling people naive and I'll stop assaulting your character. BTW, that wasn't my intent, I was just trying to show how absurd that I see your viewpoint. Also, I've had a really bad day, and PSU has been flaky at best. No offense intended.

Please support your contention that Outfit competition will contribute to TK. EVILPIG, the original poster, contends that this will promote TK. If you want to "debate" this, then please offer supporting evidence of this.

My contention is that people TK for various reasons, none of which are founded in logic. They get a thrill out of griefing other players. They "just don't like" the other person and they have a terrible temper. I don't know, but I'm quite certain that adding outfit competitions will neither stop, nor contribute to this behavior. The people that TK have other fundamental issues other than the game mechanics. If you believe this change in the game will affect how people play, please give your reasons and convince me. Because currently, I don't believe that is true for the reasonable case.

I guess I'm saying that your contention is just as much of a "Red Herring".

[EVILPIG]

I appreciate all who have remained civil. To make any absolute statements is just foolish. I see open minded responses, and words of the blind. I speak of possibilities of which are already happening in-game. It is best to condsider these things ahead of time. Once inplace, something which completely changes the atmosphere of planetside could be impossible to take back. I ask you this.. What if outfit competitions do breed contempt between outfits, they start to war against each other, and PS takes outfit competitions away? Will the waring end? I think not. As I said, this is already happening to some extent, why give them a REAL reason to not like each other.

If you haven't skimmed through my posts just looking for something to contest, you'd notice that I like the idea, I just don't believe it is good for PS. Especially without a greif overhaul. But how would that be done? Outfit to Outfit greif points sounds like a good start, but maybe still not a good solution. That idea would AT LEAST require the ability for the Outfit Leader to see each members greif levels. But what would that mattter if the O/L was fine with it.

Again I say, consider everything. I have 430 men, most of which would be more than happy to do it if I said so. This IS something which can be easily abused.



I had mentioned ealier that perhaps the competition should be against enemy outfits. That way you would not have to share space with them if you have contemptuous feelings and it will be OK to take revenge.

[Chanfan]

Originally posted by EVILPIG
Again I say, consider everything. I have 430 men, most of which would be more than happy to do it if I said so. This IS something which can be easily abused.


Hmm, I dunno. If my commander said "TK so and so when you see him", I'd say "No, just report him if he's causing problems", but perhaps I'm atypical.

I like to think that most people realize the point of the game is to work on killing the enemy, and not your own side, and will leave outfits that don't support that. I know I would - not only because I wouldn't support it, but for the selfish reason that time spend warring with your own team is potential experience earning time wasted.

But more to the point, I do hope that if such a large scale abuse occurred, and if the entire outfit went along with it, that they would all be banned (or otherwise suitably punished).

[Airlift]

I don't really care about the outfit competitions, but it doesn't bother me that they will be putting them in.

[EVILPIG]

Originally posted by Chanfan
Hmm, I dunno. If my commander said "TK so and so when you see him", I'd say "No, just report him if he's causing problems", but perhaps I'm atypical.

I like to think that most people realize the point of the game is to work on killing the enemy, and not your own side, and will leave outfits that don't support that. I know I would - not only because I wouldn't support it, but for the selfish reason that time spend warring with your own team is potential experience earning time wasted.

But more to the point, I do hope that if such a large scale abuse occurred, and if the entire outfit went along with it, that they would all be banned (or otherwise suitably punished).



Good for you. It was just an example, as it is our policy to not permit such behavior.

[LeonStrike]

*sigh* Outfit competitions will be a good thing for PS. If people do kill others because of the outfit they are in, that person will jut report them, and they will be punished in some form, such as character deletion, banned for a certain amount of time, and lots of other things. Then that person will learn to never do it again, and if they do, their account will be deleted. That simple. Outfit competitions will allow friendly outfits to see who is better for the fun of it. Remember, fun is the reason for every game. The amount of fun people will have with outfit competitions will definitly outway the stupid people who will TK, and they will eventually be deleted :p.

[Doppler]

Evilpig: YOu like the idea of outfit competitions but dont believe it will help PS as a whole. Primarily because it might cause/make worse interoutfit animosity. While I can see your point I can hopefully put forth this consolation, aside from the fact that large groups of small boys will always try and mess with smaller groups of people. It's happened in every online experience I can think of to date, from UO to Diablo to EQ. The safty measure is the non technical component of the player controll system. I.E the GMs. If one person or gorup of people is consistantly attacking and killing one other person or group of people that consitutes harrasment and SOE tends to take a very dim and some might say facist view of that. Expect whole outfits to be banned/temporarily restricted if this sort of thing really gets out of hand.

To recoil or whatever your name was:
Ok normally I dont light into people like this, but is everyone who doesnt agree with you horribly naive? Seriously do you walk around your home/school/office/daycare and someone says "I dont think Matrix will win anything this year because they critics are too biased against sequels" and you'll say "Well your really niave" At this point you might get punched in the face. The point I'm trying to make is this is a forum, a place where people put forth ideas. It is poor attitude at best (downright rude and insulting at worst) just direct comments at them just because you disagree with them.

[Dharkbayne]

I think it would be nice, ya know, log in, check the MOTD and it says

"Hey everyone, we're going to be having a outfit comp. at 9PM PST on Saturday, see you there!

I remember stuff like that on JK2, we would have practice comps in our own outfit and stuff, and it was really organized, and uber fun, :)

[OneManArmy]

you're all just scared because when the time comes New Dawn is gonna make CDL our bitches... :brow:

(well that is if outfits from different factions can duke it out..)

actually thats what I thought it meant all along, was outfits from different factions could face easch other....

[Big Bro]

Originally posted by OneManArmy
you're all just scared because when the time comes New Dawn is gonna make CDL our bitches... :brow:

You will have to get through NCG first. Lay off our Terran brethren! :trrocks:

[cgreene415]

Yeah I dont like that idea 1 bit ...I rather do without Outfit Comps.






666-SS-Devil DOGS forever w00t

[Winged_Nazgul]

Seriously, if I was in an outfit and was told to TK somebody just because they were in a rival outfit, my first move would be to hit the Leave Outfit button. Your arguments presuppose having people who can't think for themselves. There is already competition between outfits in the form of outfit points. Having quarterly competitions will not push responsible outfits over the brink. Like it's been said before, there are morons out there. I guess that goes for moron outfits too. This does not mean that competition between outfits is a bad thing.

[Zentenk VA]

I would like compatitions to see where we stand, if you get mad or upset cause you lost capture the flag you have problems. I doubt this will make people grief, just give a GG after the Outfit Compatition and it should be ok... if they have problems well HA HA that is dumb. There are only 2 common enemies for me on Auraxis.