Another blow in the so called war on terror

[�io]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021219/wl_nm/attack_immigration_dc_4

How a small group of freaks turned a country to this is beyond my understanding. Yeah the 9/11 psychos were from the middle east, does that mean that everyone of them is a terrorist? I thought it was "innocent until proven guilty" in civilized countries...doesn't seem like it anymore. :ugh:

[Navaron]

Yeah I read that this morning. How is that not entrapment? I have to say, it is different than the camps for Japanese in WW2, these arabs were all illegal. They *did* break the law, so it's not like they just grabbed every middle eastern looking person and threw them in jail. I'm curious though, if I were an illegal immigrant, I wouldn't go near anything government sponsered.

[�io]

That's because most likely they weren't all breaking the law but simply got caught in the whole "middle east = bad" thing. I'm sure quite a few were indeed illegal immigrants but does that warrant the need for arrests and treating them like animals?

Oh and they did pretty much grab every middle eastern person and throw them in jail. Or did i misread it? Maybe there was some Cubans or Asians in there.

[Navaron]

I'm pretty sure they got all of the males over 18 on that new law. If you are from one of 20 countries (it's not ethnicity based) and you have overstayed your visa you have to register with the INS, so they know who is where. None of those guys did. From what I understand, the penalty can be prison time and fines and exportation, but it looks like these guys are all getting a slap on the wrist, unless they find someone they want. It beats what they'd do to you anywhere else in the world.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Yes technically everyone of them had broken the law. INS is really cracking down on border security and immigration.

[Flashingfish]

My father, they just took him in," one young man told reporters. "They've been treating him like an animal. They put him in a room with, like, 50 other people and no bed or anything."

What the hell is this? So much for America being the land of new beginnings ;x

[Hamma]

I saw this yesterday. :ugh: <- thats all I have to say :(

[Unregistered]

This is a bit of Irresponsible Journalism. The article fails to mention that everyone that was arrested were Illeagle Imagrints. That means that they have over stayed their visa's, and are in violation of the law.

In the United States, you are inocent until proven guilty, but they don't let criminals roam the streets while they are going to court. I don't see anything wrong with this, the INS is doing their job for once.

They round up 1000's of Mexicans, Aresset them, and Deport them every single day. Why aren't you crying about them? Where is the yahoo news article about them? Think about what your doing. Your trying to give Muslims, who as a people have commited numerous acts of terrorism against the U.S. more rights then you want to give Mexicans who haven't ever commited any terrorists acts against the U.S.

If those people belong here, they will get their paperwork fixed, and they will be let back out.

[Arglaar]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Mexicans who haven't ever commited any terrorists acts against the U.S.

REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!!!!!!!!!


:lol::rofl:

[BLuE_ZeRO]

lmfao :lol:

BTW the US can be the land of new beginnings but we're not letting the world's population into the country. We're especially not going to let them stay here illegally.

[�io]

Ok well i was hoping to have a serious debate like on the other forum from where i got this article but Hamma, FlashingFish and Zero are the only people who can admit the US was wrong so i'll forget about the debate here and just keep posting on the other forum.

[Arglaar]

Originally posted by Dio
Ok well i was hoping to have a serious debate like on the other forum from where i got this article but Hamma, FlashingFish and Zero are the only people who can admit the US was wrong so i'll forget about the debate here and just keep posting on the other forum.

So it's only possible to have a serious discussion if people admit that the US was wrong?

Isn't that a little bit of a one-sided discussion then?

What about Unreg's dissenting remrks? don't they deserve discussion?

[Hamma]

Political Debate = lose

[Unregistered]

Then your not debating. Your trying to force your point of view on people that don't agree with you. The U.S. has done nothing wrong in detaing Illeagle Imagrints.

Contray to popular beleif the constitution does not protect illeagel imagrintas. They have no rights because they are not citizens. Do you see where you are backwards on this issue yet?

They came here on visas. They did not go through the propper channels to be allowed to stay, and the INS has picked them up. What again is the problem?

That's what I hate about librals/democrats. You all scream when "Racil Profiling!! Bush is a Nazi!!! We are doomed!!!" when something like this happens, but when something like 9/11 happens you all want to know "How did this happen? How did you allow such dangerous people into the country?"

Make up your minds. We can either arrest and detain people that are here illeagely to ensure that they are not terrorists. Or we can ignore all the warning signs, so we can be politically correct, and risk the lives of countless americans.

Which will it be?

[�io]

Ok so you guys are telling me you seriously believe hundreds of illegal immigrants were dumb enough to go report themselves and get arrested AND deserve to be locked in a room with 50 other people ?

:rolleyes:

Yeah probably most of them overstayed their visas but they weren't all evil psycho terrorists.


Islamic community leaders said many of the detainees had been living, working and paying taxes in the United States for five or 10 years, and had families here.

"Terrorists most likely wouldn't come to the INS to register. It is really a bad way to go about it. They are being treated as criminals and that really goes against American ideals of fairness, and justice and democracy,"

The Iranian protesters said many of those detained were victims of official delays in processing visa and green card requests

Lies!! All lies!!

The arrests were part of a post Sept. 11 program that requires all males over 16 from a list of 20 Arab or Middle East countries, who do not have permanent resident status in the United States, to register with U.S. immigration authorities.

Nope, no ethnic racism here.


Anyway i'm gonna refrain from posting after this because Hamma is right political debate = lost. But no matter what you guys says the stuff the US is doing is just making 9/11 a victory for the psychos who did it. The whole point of terrorists is to install fear into people and thanks to 9/11 the US is afraid of nearly anybody who isn't a born american (and even then), sure America might be safer now but you also lost a lot of freedoms and a lot of people live in fear, that just means the wackos won. :(

[Unregistered]

Again I ask you: "Why is this a big deal because they were Muslums, but it's not a big deal when they do it to Mexicans/Russians/Cubans/Chineese/Brits/Canadians, and all other people that have over stayed their visas in this country?"

I have not lost a single bit of freedom since 9/11/01. I live my life in the same manner that I always have.

This is nothing new. It's why the U.S. has an Imigration and Naturalization Service.

As far as people being locked up in a room with 50 other people? I guess you've never been to jail in your life, but here in the U.S. All of the prisons are over crowded as a result of "The War on Drugs". Why aren't you crying for all the drug dealers/users/smugglers that live in the same conditions?

So tell me Dio, what would you do with 600 illeagle aliens? Put them up at the Hilton while you figured out their paperwork? The big diffrence between this and the interment of the Japanese is the **** were U.S. Citizens, and they were put in camps, and had their posseisons taken by the government. That was wrong. This however is not.

[Hamma]

This is why I ignore politics. :D

[Unregistered]

I wonder why no one ever complains about Australia's imigration policy? They take every single imagrant and put them in a prison camp for up to a year investigating their backgrounds before they let them lose on the country.

No one is crying about them.

The U.S. Polices the world, and people cry. The U.S. Polices it self and people cry. Well no matter what we do someone will cry, and that's the way it's always been.

You also might find this article interesting. I notice your Inadaquate news source neglected to give any background on why this policy was put into place. Don't beleave everything you read. Most news storys are written with a libral slant, so it is important to read the conservitve side of the story so you can seperate the facts from the opinions and make your own choice on what is right.

Their are still a lot of problems with the way Visa's are issued, and this was just the first step in correcting the problems.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73485,00.html

Grassley and Rep. Dave Weldon, R-Fla., are also responsible for helping to put to an end to the State Department's Visa Express program.

That program, which was killed in July, allowed visa applicants in Saudi Arabia to get approval to come to the United States without proper in-person interviews. They submitted applications through commercial travel agencies. Three of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers used the Visa Express program to get their visas and were never interviewed by a U.S. official. Fifteen of the 19 hijackers obtained visas in Saudi Arabia one way or another.

Before Sept. 11, this Visa Express program had allowed roughly 97 percent of Saudi visa applicants to obtain visas without face-to-face interviews.

The inspector general's report concluded that visa-issuing posts make up their own rules about waiving an interview with little regard for security, and that Consular Affairs' use of foreign travel agencies to help process visa applications is haphazard and reckless.

The report also shows that document fraud is a serious problem, and fraud detection efforts are not coordinated. Grassley has argued that fraud prevention units must be more effective around the world.

The homeland security bill signed by President Bush in October also calls for tighter control over the U.S. visa entry program. Among other things, it requires the secretary of state to implement enhanced security measures for the review of visa applicants and provides more money to hire additional staff and to train consular officers and diplomatic security agents.

[�io]

Originally posted by Hamma
This is why I ignore politics. :D

As shall i on this forum from now on. :)

[Unregistered]

Come on Dio. I thought you wanted to have a debate. I'd really love to hear a rebutle to any of the valid points that I've made. All I have gotton from you so far is an acusation that the INS is lying because they say these people are in violation of the law.

Yep. It's all part of the vast Right Wing conspiracy to take over the world by detaining a few criminals. Time to impeach the president I guess :rolleyes:

[�io]

I don't debate when the other people are dead set. If there is a chance they will admit that something isn't right sure but if they will never say anything except "No we are right" then it's not worth it.

Chalk it up as a victory. I give up. :)

[Navaron]

I thought about staying out of this, but it seems to not be well focused, and there isn't really room for debate here. The point is that they were illegal immigrants. They had the oppurtunity to live in the country and abide by certain laws (notices of moving and the male registration requirement). They chose not to.

It is not like "The Man" is hunting down every muslim. It is not a religious issue, that is like rounding up all illegal Swiss in the country - would that be persecution? It's a geographical policy based on the fact that these countries harbor threats.

It is very different from the work camps of WW2, which were wrong. Those people were good innocent people working in America. THese people (benifit of the doubt here) are good hard working people who broke a law. If I violate the lease on my car, ignorance is not an excuse. If I don't wear my seatbelt, I am still responsable. The best example of this is: If I don't retake my FAA physical within the required time every year, then I loose my ability to legally fly. Now I can still fly because I have the knowledge, but if I am caught, I am subject to a penalty, for violating my agreement. This is the same thing.

50 people in one room is not a big deal, I just got out of a class where I paid 600 dollars to sit with 100 people in a room that was maybe 100 x 75 ft. These people's families were contacted, and they were not rounded up.

Dio, I like you and am most willing to have a civil discussion with you, but you are coming off (at least to me) as saying that these guys have a free ticket just because they are middle eastern.

"Terrorists most likely wouldn't come to the INS to register. It is really a bad way to go about it. They are being treated as criminals and that really goes against American ideals of fairness, and justice and democracy,"

These people are being treated like criminals because there is ampleproof that they have violated a very severe law, which makes them criminal suspects.

These laws are founded on good stead, people are allowed free reign in this country for x amount of time, as long as they meet with a few conditions. If you can not meet with these conditions, then it would seem that you have some other motive.

If you don't want to discuss this here, gimme a like elsewhere and we can go over it there.

[Unregistered]

You have done nothing to sway my point of view. I take your last comment to mean "I will not debate with people who have a diffrent point of view" which means that you will not debate at all.

I have posed for you many diffrent reasons for why I think they are justified in what they have done. All you have done is insited that it's wrong. I have asked sevral times why it's wrong, but you have not given me an answer.

There is not a winner in a debate. It only serves to get people to think more about an issue. in taht respect you have been sucessful, and I have not. You are not willing to concider the fact that the INS may not be in the wrong after all. You refuse to concider anyone elses side of the story. While I am genuinly interested in what you have say.

This is a much better article on the matter. It presents Both sides of the story, and not just the Libral Yahoo Irresponsible One Sided Story.

I'm posting the whole thing so you don't have to register at the LA times web site.

The last paragraph shows that the U.S. still gives more rights to criminals then anyone else. Even though they are here illeagly, they can still sue, and then the Supreme Court will decide weather or not this is right, or wrong.

That's what makes the U.S. so great. Even Illeagal Aliens can use our Justice System to their advantage.

INS Arrest Numbers Inflated, U.S. Says
Officials accuse groups of exaggerating figures involving immigrants from Muslim countries.

By Nita Lelyveld and Henry Weinstein Times Staff Writers, Times Staff Writers


Justice Department officials, after days of refusing to disclose the number of men and boys from Muslim countries arrested this week at INS offices, insisted Thursday that groups with a "bias against the system" had exaggerated the figures.

Groups representing Iranian and Arab immigrants in Southern California estimated Wednesday that between 500 and 700 men and boys, mostly Iranians, had been arrested in Southern California when they appeared at Immigration and Naturalization Service offices in response to a government order to register and be fingerprinted. INS officials, speaking anonymously Wednesday, said that they did not dispute those figures.

But Jorge Martinez, a Justice Department spokesman, said the total number of people detained in Southern California was "in the low 200s." Most of those have been released, he said.

"As of midafternoon today, less than 100 people were in detention. Those numbers keep dwindling down," he said. Many people were being released on bail and told to report back at a later date.

Lawyers who escorted clients to INS offices and groups representing Iranian and Arab immigrants, however, continued to say that the number of people who had been detained was higher than the INS figure. They agreed, however, that most have been released on bail.

Martinez also denounced reports that detainees had been treated badly -- shoved into overcrowded cells or hosed down with cold water -- calling the charges made by lawyers and relatives of detainees "preposterous allegations."

"I think these are people who obviously have some bias against the system blowing things out of proportion," he said.

The situation with arrests in Southern California was "unique," he said, because of the region's large Iranian population and because many people here had waited until the registration deadline to come forward. Many people had to be detained until the INS could complete background checks, Martinez said.

Under INS rules, men and boys older than 16 from certain countries who are in the United States on temporary visas are required to register. Citizens of the first five countries covered -- Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya and Sudan -- were required to register by Monday of this week. People from an additional 13 countries are required to register in January.

The Justice Department's response came as criticism of the INS' handling of the registration program continued.

Rep. Jane Harman (D-Venice) wrote INS acting Commissioner Michael J. Garcia urging him to quickly hold a series of town hall meetings to explain the INS actions. The INS handling of the detentions could "set back our nation's fight against terrorism," she wrote.

"Many of the individuals who complied with the INS registration could be resources for our war; now they have been alienated."

Martinez defended the detentions, which he called temporary.

"The vast majority was visa overstays or other immigration violations," he said. "It is the INS' duty to detain and process these individuals.

"That's the appropriate action that they have to take. We want to make sure that we're not letting people back into the community who pose a threat to the community."

Across the country, many civil liberties groups and immigrants' rights advocates have questioned both the Justice Department's numbers and the rationale for the detentions. Because of the arrests, the registration program has hurt national security efforts, not helped them, the groups say.

In Southern California, the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, the Iranian American Lawyers Assn., the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Muslim Public Affairs Council and the Japanese American Citizens League were among the groups that called on the government to end the registration program or extend registration deadlines.

Salam al-Marayati, executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council, said his organization faced a credibility problem with some of those it serves after announcing the registration requirements on its Web site.

"Members of our community are angry with us and feel that we should apologize," Al-Marayati said. "We've been helping law enforcement open doors throughout the community and telling people that they should not fear the government; they're here to protect us. So this is a major setback."

Al-Marayati said he had been told by an immigration lawyer that as many as 1,000 people had been arrested in Southern California. He said he believed that terrorists might benefit from all the commotion.

"They have driven people into hiding now," he said of the INS. "And if there are any more [Sept. 11 hijacker Mohamed] Attas and sleeper cells, well, now they can bury themselves amidst all this noise when before they might have been easier to detect."

Others said terrorists would not have complied with voluntary registration anyway.

"The government has confused immigration policy with national security policy and is treating them as if they are the same thing," said Hussein Ibish, communications director for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.

The detentions seem likely to be challenged in court.

On Tuesday, Karen K. Meade, a Cleveland attorney representing four men from Syria and Iran, filed suit asking a federal judge to stop the INS from trying to deport them. The men were taken into custody by the INS Monday after registering, but later released on bail. The suit contends that the special registration program improperly discriminates against people based on ethnicity.

Shawn Sedeghat, an attorney in Sherman Oaks, said he plans to file a federal lawsuit soon contending that the INS has conducted the registration program in an unconstitutional manner.

[MrVicchio]

I have something to say on this.

Name me another country that is as nice as we are to foriegners? To criminals. Save that bleeding heart for some other nation.

If you are in MY country illegally.. sucks to be you, toss you in jail and then send you home. Period. That fact that the terorist WERE middle eastern IS relavent. Here is why:

Name me any 3 muslim leaders that have publicly denounced Terrorism, be it Al-quada or Hezbollah. You wont find em. Why? Cause a very large portion of the middle esatern population HATES AMERICA! Amazing eh?

Guess we aren't allowed to say that are we? Too bad. I am SICK and TIRED Of this touchy feely BS.

If you come here LEGALLY, and are trying to make a better life for yourself, hey, welcome to America.

If you come here and do not follow the rules, come here illegally... get out and stay out.

Most countries in the world suck. Period. You will never get the help, and the chance to succeed like you can here. It just doesnt happen. If America takes a hard look at a certian group of people because alot of people from that group are out to destroy this country... GOOD! I would rather we do that then wake up to see another major terrorist attack, 3000 americans died becuse 19 MIDDLE EASTERN men backed by PEOPLE in the MIDDLE EAST don't like us. And when the news hit the MIDDLE EAST there was much dancing in the streets and rejoicing across the lands...

Are every middle eastern males 18-40 terrorist? Nope. Do all of them harbour ill will towards America? Nope. But, there are enought that we need to take a few extra steps to stop them. If those of Middle Eastern lineage are mad about these steps.. go slap your country men and tell them to stop the violence.. maybe then PEACE will break out.

[Navaron]

I don't think Dio will be back :( .

[MrVicchio]

When I saw the Two Twoers, before the movie during those cheesy slide shows.. there was a great quote:

"listening is being able to be moved by the other person"-Alan Alda


That is perfect Liberal Gibberish. I debate on several Politics ONLY Forums, even the newsmax one when I am in the mood for it. This is the attitude the left takes.

"You don't agree with me because you aren't listening"

Course if you throw THAT line at them, you get assualted, or the usual "No, your wrong" but never why. I hope Dio does come back, why? Because even tho I 100% disagree with him, his opinion counts, just as much as anyone elses. But if ANYONE posts something like that, be ready to get hammered, and be able to fire back with facts and well thought posts.. otherwise.. you'll get eaten alive...

Great quote from a VERY left wing clan mate of mine:

"Becareful what you post or you will get eaten by the Vicchio Political Machine!"

[Unregistered]

I hope Dio comes back too. I like the guy.

I just dissagree with him, and I don't like any news story that does not provide all the facts. The LA Times story I posted shows both sides, and does not paint either side to be correct.

[Manitou]

First of all... Illegal is illegal... period.

You break the law, you pay the consequences. If someone commited a crime, but went about their lives paying taxes, living normally after the crime was commited, that doesn't absolve them of the initial guilt of breaking the law in the first place.

Now, the Consitution was written to provide for the rights of Americans. I said Americans. This implies a LEGAL process whereby you go through the proper channels to apply, be approved and sworn in the be naturalized, or be born here. Not illegally cross the border, take up residence then claim rights. Doesn't work that way. Neither does coming here legally, but then overstaying your legal visa thereby becoming illegal.

I am in the military. I run a section of troops that is made up of two people who are not Americans, but wear the US military uniform. They have applied and are going through the nightmarish and long process of becoming naturalized citizens. It is a freakishly long process frought with red tape, paperwork by the reams, and uncaring beaurocrats. But they are doing it. Do you realize they can be killed in the battlefield and never obtain that citizenship? Why do they go through this??? Because they love the US so much they are willing to do it right so as not to violate the laws they will be upholding the day they are sworn in.

Racial profiling is wrong, you say? Let me ask you one question:

When you saw the WTC get hit on 9/11, did you for a moment think that 80 year old white grandmas were responsible? If you did not, you were racially profiling.

[Sandtaco]

:lol: The white grandmas, they do it every time.

[Navaron]

*Choir nods at preacher* mmmm hmmm

Hee hee

That heavy gunner is cool as your avatar.

[�io]

I'm not gone. I just give up on trying to debate this, no offense to anybody. I admire the passion people like Unreg have for their country, but said passion also makes it hard for them to admit when their country does something not so great.

Like i said i'm sure a lot of them were indeed illegal immigrants but it seems kinda un-american to lock 50 of them into a small room even if they are breaking the law and no matter what you say they were targeting middle eastern and that is pure and simple prejudicism and racism. I have no doubt in my mind that some of those people locked away have indeed been outstanding citizens of the US for many years and now just because they are from some country that is associated with terrorism they got locked up like a common thug.

Anywhoo as i said chalk this one up as a victory for your side, i'd rather debate this issue somewhere else. (again no offense to anybody) :)

[Navaron]

I like people who stand by their views, congrats DIO you earned my respect.

One little thing though, no one here knows the answer to this but: How do we know that all of the people arrested were a) muslim b) of middle eastern ethnicity and c) or how do we know that they are even having criminal charges pressed. Releasing them on bail, means that they could return and fill out proper documentation, but who's to say the INS was just trying to keep track of all it's prspects? If you can't find one, bring them all in.

I have heard nothing about any of those. Some of those guys arrested could be white or black also. It wasn't based on skin or religion, but on where the person hailed from. It is good defense to keep an eye on people who are from countries that openly hate you. Regardless of skin color, we all die the same, so it's best to protect yourself.

[�io]

It wasn't based on skin or religion, but on where the person hailed from.

Is there a difference?

Maybe it's just me but racism and prejudice either by race, religion or birth place is still racism and prejudice. I mean what kind of logic is "If he's from the middle east he's a terrorist!" who's to say the next 9/11 (god forbid there be another tragedy like it) won't be caused by terrorists from spain or australia or anywhere else.

[MrVicchio]

Dio,

You stick to your guns, I can respect that...

But, there is no actice world wide, well financed group of terrorist that wants to kill americans aside ones from... yep, you guessed it, THE MIDDLE EAST.

[�io]

Yeah i'm not saying the middle east isn't a very big problem but to claim that all middle eastern people in the US might be terrorists is a bit extreme. I'm positive most of the middle eastern people in the US are very loyal and loving americans. They know what kind of life is out there waiting for them back "home" and they know the US is a paradise compared to it.

[Navaron]

Dio, I know a couple of the countries are in Africa and mostly areas without a strong central government, so the warlords and criminals run rampant.

If we were under attack by Russia, all russian citizens would have to be found and identified and watched. It's a true fact of the cold world we live in. You and I are good people, we want to believe in the best people can bring forth. Unfortunately, some people are so blinded by lies and hatred that they will do anything to hurt their enemies.

Racism is based on a persons skin color or ethnicity. Like I said, it could be white guys or blacks too -> John Walker Lynn and Zacharius Mossouie. The threat is in the mind of these people not their skin.

You could say that we have imposed a policy of Geographical trepidation. If you're from a potentially threatening enviroment, you are just watched a little closer. We aren't executing these guys, we're just checking up on them. They are the ones that broke the rules. If it was racism, we wouldn't even let them in, and we'd expell the current ones.

If a Canadian's visa expires he's SOL just the same, its Geographical trepidation.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Dio
Yeah i'm not saying the middle east isn't a very big problem but to claim that all middle eastern people in the US might be terrorists is a bit extreme. I'm positive most of the middle eastern people in the US are very loyal and loving americans. They know what kind of life is out there waiting for them back "home" and they know the US is a paradise compared to it.

There are a good number that are NOT in anyway a part of any terrorism...

But, there are quite a few that are. Ever here of the Arab American Counsel? Financed by Arabs in America and has direct ties to Terror..

Very few Arabs speak out openly against Al-quada... When Irish Catholics bombed Irish protestants.. The Catholics across the world denounced them... that is but one example of what I would like to see the arab/muslim community do.. so far they havent.

[Navaron]

OOOhhh Vic,

I hate to do this, but I gotta call you on this one. A large portion of the Muslim leaders in the world rebuked the attacks in application, principal, and openly stated it was murder and strictly forbidden. It is a large mistake to make this a religious matter when it is an ideological one. Sorry man.

Nav

[Hamma]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Unregistered]

Not all people of Middle Eastern Decent were told they had to come in and be finger printed by the INS, only the ones that were not U.S. citizens. In the Yahoo article it states that 60,000 Irianian Imigrants live in the area and that is just the numbers from one of the 7 countrys that were required to report.

By no means is this racist, or show any prejudice. If it was Racisit, or Prejudice they would have required all people of middle eastern decent including woamn and children reguardless of their U.S. citizenship to come and register.

That my friend would be very, very wrong.

In none of the articles does it even mention the number of people in the U.S. that did show up took care of bussiness and went home. All any of them talk about is how many were detained. I would be willing to bet that less then 1% of the total imigrants that were required to report were detained. It wasn't just in Los Angelos that they were required to reprot to the INS. It was the entire country. What happened in the other places? Were people detained? What precentage of this people were detained?

We can't pass judgement on the entire U.S. Government based on what we have read. The media has told you what to think. It's up to you to figure out weather they have provided enough information to form an educated decision. In this case they have not, and until they do so the benifit of the doubt goes to the Government.

You also have a valid point in saying that no one knows where the next attack make come from, and Richard Ried of France, the Bombings in Bali, The Kidnappings and Murder of U.S. citizens in the Phillipiens, as well as the Beltway Sniper from our very own country illistrate that point.

If anyone beleaves that all people of Middle easter decent are terrorists, or that all Muslums are terrorists their a fool, but by the same token if anyone beleaves that Musums and people of middle eastern decent are all really good guys is eaquely as foolish.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
OOOhhh Vic,

I hate to do this, but I gotta call you on this one. A large portion of the Muslim leaders in the world rebuked the attacks in application, principal, and openly stated it was murder and strictly forbidden. It is a large mistake to make this a religious matter when it is an ideological one. Sorry man.

Nav

Actually, I follow this, and according to my sources, a mix of Left and right wing sites, yes there was one brief statement made by a number of leaders, then money was tracked from THEIR groups to Al-Quada, some have since been shut down..

[diluted]

i havent kept up with this post but i just gotta throw my opinion into it:

and that is, why the fuck is it that on 9/12 they knew every single peice of everything al quada ever did. thats bullshit. they knew who did it, how they did it, where they lived, what they did for a living, all the hijackers, when they did things where they did things. i even saw this thing where they knew exactly where he went at what places the night before 9/11. and yet theres fucking mass murderers everywhere and they dont know anything. argh:mad:

[Zarparchior]

"What happened to liberty and justice?."Good question. :ugh:

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Zarparchior
Good question. :ugh:

What happened to people settleing thier differnce through talking and not with 757's full of people into buildings full of people?

[Manitou]

Originally posted by Zarparchior
Good question. :ugh:

Liberty and justice??

Let me remind you that if you were found posting these very views in MOST Arab countries you would be thrown in jail if they were in a good mood, and executed if not.

Liberty and justice as you know and enjoy it are peculiarly American ideals. Ask some of the women in these Arab countries about liberty and justice. They are under the curse of fitna.

[�io]

Ok first off Unreg i gotta say you defend your views damn well. :thumbsup:

I agree with everything everybody said since my last post. I know it's "a true fact of the cold world we live in" that we easily fall into prejudice and such, i guess it just peeves me to see the world focus on middle east instead of focusing on terrorists themselves. Although granted the middle east is like terrorists 'R' us.


Also Ungreg

Not all people of Middle Eastern Decent were told they had to come in and be finger printed by the INS, only the ones that were not U.S. citizens.

Maybe that's true but this made me believe otherwise

Islamic community leaders said many of the detainees had been living, working and paying taxes in the United States for five or 10 years, and had families here.

And if that quote is true well i find it kinda disturbing, yeah they came from the middle east but i think after 10 years in America you would be considered american or at least not get thrown into jail with 50 other people. :(

[Zarparchior]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
What happened to people settleing thier differnce through talking and not with 757's full of people into buildings full of people?

Originally posted by Manitou
Liberty and justice??

Let me remind you that if you were found posting these very views in MOST Arab countries you would be thrown in jail if they were in a good mood, and executed if not.

Liberty and justice as you know and enjoy it are peculiarly American ideals. Ask some of the women in these Arab countries about liberty and justice. They are under the curse of fitna. I stand by my former statement. In this instance, if they were already convicted of crimes, that it was probably justifiable...

However, the government is only steps away from installing cameras in my house, car, hell - even public restrooms. And for what? In the name of anti-terrorism? Sure, I'd LOVE to not have my rights anymore! Privacy? Pfffft... If I'm not doing anything against the law, why should I have privacy? Get with the 21st century guys; privacy is a thing of the past. :D

Also, look at our economy. It's in the gutter. NOTHING is getting better. Things seem to be spiraling downward as far as the thing we call the economy is concerned. Jobs are rare and valued, unless you want to work at Burger Emporer or McTasty's. What's the invincible Bush got up his sleeve that will save the nation from itself? Maybe we should try the "trickle down" theory again, just like our good friend from the depression tried.

MrVicchio: I agree, but it seems the US isn't very good at it either though. Iraq's doing everything we ask them too? Well... They're hiding something! They are EVIL! :evil:

Manitou: So... you're saying by comparrison nearly anything we do would be justifiable? What if we discover 100 terrorist spies in the next week and execute them without a trial? Pffft... It's nothing compared with what those craizee ayraybs do, with all their killing and discrimination against women and more killing... and stuff. We are the good guys after all, are we not? :D

Let me remind you guys of something. The winners write their own history books and the losers write their version. Who's to say which one is the one closer to the truth?

What's right and wrong is not as black and white as you two claim.

[Navaron]

"I stand by my former statement. In this instance, if they were already convicted of crimes, that it was probably justifiable... "

So what you say is that they have a perfect legal system (Hell, even a fair one)? That they have a good and fair jury? I'm sure that no one ever is wrongfully accused, but by the time they found that out the guys been executed? You know that the average prison stay is 40 days. I'm sure that's plenty of time to
form a great defense.

"Also, look at our economy. It's in the gutter. NOTHING is getting better. Things seem to be spiraling downward as far as the thing we call the economy is concerned. Jobs are rare and valued, unless you want to work at Burger Emporer or McTasty's. What's the invincible Bush got up his sleeve that will save the nation from itself? Maybe we should try the "trickle down" theory again, just like our good friend from the depression tried."

Our economy is not in the gutter. You are taking the most relative view of America I've heard in a while. The American Economy at it's worst, is still leaps and bounds above any other and the world. That's the joy of being the worlds last superpower. Jobs aren't hard to come by either, sure there are unemployed but, I know of at least 20 companies that are in dire need of professionals. Also, it doesn't seem like you understand the economic cycle very well, any policy or law put into effect today won't have repercussions for anywhere from 2-6 years. Trickledown is the reason for the stockmarket boom, tech boom, and roaring '90's. In the mid '90s Clintoon decided to start a new class warfare cycle and redifined "rich class". Rich became any household making over 60,000 a year, so a teacher and a police officer working full time are now considered rich. So in actuality, when he taxed the "wealthier" Americans, he taxed people who were previously middle class. So, lets do the math, mid nineties + 2-6 years= the exact time all of the shit hit the fan. Hmmmm funny huh.

Well....

[mistled]

Zarparchior,
First off, I'm not even sure how we got on the issue of privacy, but let's go. Installing cameras in your home bears no similarities to asking illegal aliens to come forward. Perhaps it should be pointed out that the constitution does not provide us with any guarantees of privacy. You are free to do as you wish, but not necessarily free to do so in secret.

On to liberty and justice. The American judicial system is provided for Americans. I think that's a decently simple concept. The illegal aliens that were detained are not citizens, and therefore, do not have the same right citizens enjoy.

"you're saying by comparison nearly anything we do would be justifiable? What if we discover 100 terrorist spies in the next week and execute them without a trial?"
- Perhaps it is not justifiable, moral, or even decent, but it is legal. America's declaring war upon terrorism makes all terrorists against it war criminals if caught. War criminals have no right to trial or due process. They certainly have no Miranda rights. It is only because of the Geneva Convention that they even have the right to food and to not be tortured. This may not strike anyone here as a good thing, but there's a way out of it. Just don't plot to slaughter Americans. :)

To Iraq.... Before this debate even gets out of context for anyone. The Iraqi people are not evil. They are oppressed citizens of a totalitarian state. That being said, Saddam Hussein is evil. Iraq has not cooperated with the US, no matter what CNN tells you. They have yet to explain the 4 tons of nerve gas missing from their report or the 12 tons of anthrax that they conveniently left out of the same report. The US has evidence that the items exist and yet Saddam is still dumb enough to leave them out. Does this sound like cooperation to anyone here?

I agree that there are few things that are totally black or totally white in life. But in this case, there is a side that I see as being much whiter than the other.

---------
Dio,
You mentioned the people saying that many of the detainees had been living in the US for five to ten years. I would think that after five years, one would know what paperwork needed to be filled out to ensure that your visa was in order. One of the women who works under me recently passed her citizenship test (she gets sworn in as a citizen on Jan 8th). Let me assure you that she is completely aware of all that is required of her for her stay in this country. I doubt that most of those detained were ignorant of what was needed from them. When you have spent your entire life in a totalitarian regime, the due date on your visa renewal is not something that you simply let slip your mind.

mistled