The Planetside Recipe (working title) (rough draft)

[OneManArmy]

Planetside, The game many have been waiting years for, myself included. So now why do a lot of people find themselves playing it less and less already? A game that on the surface seems to have everything you would need or want for a great time in a FPS. Not to mention its one of the first games to truly stress team play. Nevertheless something is missing from Planetside that�s holding it back.

First let�s take a quick look at some other FPS out there that people currently play. For example Counter-Strike, Natural Selection, and various other Half-Life mods are still popular today, despite being based of a game that came out 5 years ago. I suppose many could say they still played it because of the extremely low computer requirements by today�s standards but Games such as BattleField:1942, Medal of Honor and Unreal Tournament 2003 that require a much more powerful PS to run are quite popular and have staying power as well. So what do these games have that Planetside does not? Planetside has everything these games do and then some. The only thing different, aside from the scale of Planetside, is the story or the flavor, if you will.

Planetside is set up in a beautiful world with diverse settings and weaponry yet there�s no flavor to them. Planetside is sort of like an empty house, it may have been built wonderfully using the best materials and contractors but it�s still an empty house no paint or furniture, nothing making it a home, and as beautiful as it may be on the outside no one wants to live in an empty house. But before I get to far off into left field lets continue. Looking at some of the games I mentioned you can see flavor in them. Counter-Strike is about as simple as you can get yet it can still be fun, why? It has real world context such as the guns the locales and even the characters you use. While it may be fictitious those ties into the real world allow the gamer to relate somewhat to what he�s playing. Same for Battlefield: 1942, the real locales, weaponry and units allow the player to relate at some level and thus get into the game a bit better.

Planetside on the other hand set up what could be a great story for its Sci-Fi setting but didn�t carry much of it into the game. They set up the three factions with their different looks and weaponry but that�s about it. To offer a suggestion; show us that the New Conglomerate and Vanu Sovereignty are rebelling against the Terran Republic, show us that each side really has its differences other than the soldiers� just look different. As it is all the bases are the same no matter who you�re attacking. I�m sure there are many ways to inject this game with a bit more flavor, or story. As Andrew Park from GameSpot wrote:

However, neither the landscapes nor the game's character, weapon, or vehicle designs are particularly inspired. They all look decent enough, but you, your teammates, and your enemies all look like futuristic soldiers wearing futuristic heavy armor, driving futuristic vehicles, and using conventional weapons, kind of like what you might expect from just about any sci-fi themed game.

Of course, even as I write this I must remind myself that while it may be easy to criticize its not easy to actually make a game, let alone a huge game that Planetside is. But this is just something to consider, while adding all kinds of new weapons and vehicles may sound great to everyone people will get bored of those too. All in all though my hats off to the Devs� for a fantastic job and may you find away to keep people in this game for a long time.

[Hamma]

People get bored of all games. It's not for everybody.

I dont see any problems with this game other than stability right now, people moan and complain about "content'

Go play an RPG and go on a 12hr quest for some magical staff if you want your content. This is an FPS, its about killing, strategy, blowing shit up.

[PeregineDive]

I loved beta... but once retail came around, for some reason I lost interest. Maybe it is b/c I am still getting drop to the server select every 15 mins, like I did in beta, and it is annoying as HELL! I really do enjoy it, I have some great friends that I play with and keep me into it.


-PD

[LupusUmbrus]

Couldnt agree with you more, oma. Any game is made up of more then its functional parts. Apart from the structural components that make up the framework of a game, there needs to be a curtain level of flavor and spice to make it truely fun.

For the number of us that are slowly becoming dissenchanted with a game that seemed to promise all we were looking for, the novelty has come and gone, leaving us with the simple fact that this game is nothing more, and nothing less, then just another game.

This is not to say that I dont think that it is not fun. Playing with the guys, massive fire fights, tanks, planes, and yes, even zerging, are altogether more then what I was hoping for.

Unfortunutly, somewhere along the line the dev team and their company have forged notions and precedents that, although being what can be concidered logically thought out, forsaken fun and flavor in favor of structual objectives.

This game has alot of potential, and is sure to get better as time goes on. Signs show that there are things being worked on that will make every play session more then just another push for a cookie-cutter tower or base. I cant wait.

[JackBoCracken]

I don't really care about content at all. The game would be fine even if there were only 3 vehicles and 6 weapons. What I would like to see is a war sim, something they explicitly state on their list of goals. What I see is capture-and-run-away with a whole lot of people.

[OneManArmy]

well, I didnt talk about wanting more content (at least I think I didn't) Infact I said no matter how much more "content" you add people are going to become bored with it. thus the point of the article thingy, not to add a dozen more weapons to the game but to add meaning to it, a reason for me to shoot that vanu other than so I can sit in a base and repeat.

mmmkay hamma?

[Powerflux]

Originally posted by Hamma
Go play an RPG and go on a 12hr quest for some magical staff if you want your content. This is an FPS, its about killing, strategy, blowing shit up.

This is true.

[Hamma]

I am still not sure exactly what people are looking for :p I mean, thousands fighting for world domination, how can that be boring?

It's just not everybodys thing I guess. Regardless those who want "more" (whicih is probably technicly impossible now lol) will just filter out over time. I'm sure there will be plenty of folks left.

[MightyMule]

Originally posted by OneManArmy
....but to add meaning to it, a reason for me to shoot that vanu other than so I can sit in a base and repeat.....



I think you hit the reason here with why many people have grown bored of the game. For the most part games have a purpose, a climax, a goal that the player is trying to reach. Planetside has goals in many forms: Killing, EXP, base capture, ranking, etc... but what it lacks is bringing these smaller goals togther into a larger goal. Sure you could say that they are brought togther as goals under the goal "World Domination" but I don't think anybody seriously entertains the idea of one empire actually taking and holding all 10 continents + the three Sactuaries. This lack of a larger goal that one is working towards in planetside seems to me to take away an motivation. Other MMO games combat this lack of motivation through character development which the player becomes attached to to there character so sees a benefit in furthering themselves in the game. Obviously this is not true for Planetside because it runs more along the FPS tagent than the RPG tagent. Typically in a FPS there is an obvious end result that you are fighting towards...winning the game. This goal is made up of several smaller goals; capture a base, kill and enemy, stay alive, etc.. As mentioned above Planetside lacks this larger goal comprosied of smaller goals which seems to me to be a key part of any FPS. No matter what else you add to the game with respect to content, team play (on a squad, platoon, or empire basis), graphics, etc... there will still be missing that ultimate goal in which you strive to reach. Some people need this goal and others don't. I don't see how this goal could be added to planetside or this goal being added an time soon.

Thankfully I am big fan of non-linear games so I have no problems with a lack of an overall goal. Anyway just random thoughts that don't really add much to OneManArmy's post.

[Jarlo]

One easy way to enable large goals is to implement a relic type system simiar to DOAC. This gives big, empire specific goals that would slightly boost that empires population.

This could give stat boosts (15 more hp, 5% faster run speed, faster stamina regen, etc) or unique weapon/vehicles.

[Dharkbayne]

Yeah, bases if you owned you could get slight stat upgrades, like things from AOE kinda, u know

Adv. troop training- 10% faster reload speed, 5% tighter COF, or like a special implant or something, I dunno, somethin like dat

[Zarparchior]

Something is direly missing from the game. Purpose. As my friend so nicely put it, Agent Smith got pretty pissed when Neo took away his purpose. So why shouldn't we feel unaccomplished? There's no real elaboration in story. There's no real reason to capture anything other the exp. Mastering the game is very easy... Hell... All of those things combined make a bad combination indeed.

Hamma, you tell people to go play their RPGs and do their 13 hour quests... and I cannot fathom why (then again, you're a republican and your grip on reality must be horribly skewered anyway. ;)). The reason I cannot is that this game has RPG elements. It appeals to RPGers as well as FPSers, and I happen to be both. So why not appease both sides if it can only INCREASE people's desire to play the game? Adding more story (or even just backround - WHY do we h8 the TR so much? WHY did the NC and VS break away at this time? WHY do the VS choose purple as their primary color? So many unanswered questions... If I had known the reason I was wearing a fruity color when playing on the VS had been for the reason that the Vanu technology upgrades that had been made on my suit had a normal purple tint and that resources were too low to dye everyones armor - them I might have considered staying on their side. But alas... they have lost me already.

I love stories. I love backround. I like immersion. I am one of those nerds who plays AD&D when I get the chance. However, I generally don't RP online because no one else does... and it's silly. :p The set-up for MMO games is very non-RP. People get lazy... don't want to spell... one thing leads to another... and then we have morons running around shouting, " iam |337 UBER GIVE MEF CANDY!!!!111." Another reason is is that by RPing I would almost have to force other people to RP with me to enjoy it. Is that fun for any of the parties involved? No. And people would consider me a dick as well. :p

His request is reasonable and I agree with it. I love Fan Fiction, and enjoy very much reading and writing my own. I dunno... This game might be much more appealing to me with just some stupid backround details. EQ has more than enough - is it not so crazy to ask for just a fraction of that for PS?

**edit: I was thinking Hamma... my title should probably be changed. I don't know what would fit me better, though. Maybe Traitor? Does anything come to mind you'd like me to be known as for the rest of my duration on these forums (indefinitely, no doubt :p)?

[Hamma]

I'm not a republican. :p

Purpose? how about having fun? Why must everything be placed right on your plate?

[RUEN]

If you really wanna know whats wrong with this game....

http://www.redvsblue.com/bloodgulch.shtml

go there and watch episode 1

[Airlift]

I am old. I remember when we didn't demand an epic story to enjoy a game, because we were more interested in gameplay. I was never upset that Pac Man always ended up in yet another maze when he cleared this one. Defender, Galaga, Tron, Pit Fall, Contra, Bionic Commando, Karate Champ... all the games that are utterly ridiculous to the kids today had something more than the eye candy and super feature-set that are expected now (and almost always a letdown). They are just damn fun, and I still find some time to sift thru the roms to play them.

I think the reason most people get so bored is because they play too damned much and they play for too long at a setting. You should be bored after you sit at your computer playing the same game for 5 hours. That is boring.

[Zarparchior]

Muwahahaha... For some reasons simple yet complex puzzle games with a very intricate plot with cool fighting scenes will hold my attention for very long indeed. Maybe that's why I loved the Zelda series, the Legacy of Cain / Soul Reaver series, and nigh all SquareSoft games so very very much. :D

That reminds me. I know you can't really compare the two, but if there was a fight between SOE and SquareSoft... I think I'd dedicate my entire time and energy to Sqaure. They are the r0x0r and no matter what future mistakes they might make, they will always have my respect and loyalty. :love:

**edit: added everything below.

Gameplay is first and foremost. I say it is lacking now, and will never be fixed to what I and a good many other players desire. Therefore, for them to keep us as customers while at the same time not changing any game mechanics they could add a little more to the story and playing fields. A little history of the base your fighting over and the vital role it plays in the plot and battle now would make this a truly great game indeed.

If all of you old farts who just like to enjoy watching computer animated deaths for no reason say that we're all crazy and that we should quit and go play EQ - then I will kindly ignore you, as you have me. :)

And I'm sorry Hamma. Simple mistake! I confused you and Unregistered. ;) :p

[RUEN]

I am old. I remember when we didn't demand an epic story to enjoy a game, because we were more interested in gameplay. I was never upset that Pac Man always ended up in yet another maze when he cleared this one.

Hey... me too, I loved those games... and I still love those games... I play Shining Force 2 over and over.... but the thing is, Shining Force 2 doesn't make me pay to play the game over and over. Planetside, however, does.

I think the reason most people get so bored is because they play too damned much and they play for too long at a setting. You should be bored after you sit at your computer playing the same game for 5 hours. That is boring.

Well, you may be right... I play games all the time, non-stop you might say. Such as Half-Life, I play that game ALL the time but for whatever reason I just don't get bored with it. I mean, It's the same thing over and over... but I still go back day after ever-loving day. Don't take this as me saying I like Half-Life more than PlanetSide... because thats not the case. PlanetSide has a great idea going for them... MMOFPS... thats god damn genius! but the thing is that they need the monthly payments to keep this game going... thats fine. But what I'm paying for had better be a whole LOT DAMN better than Half-Life, and believe me, I want it to be. It seems they have basically just recreated playing half-life at every base with nothing different about it at all, except in Half-Life (Team Fortress) , when you're board with one map, you switch to another... it lowers the monotany, not PlanetSide though, same bases everywhere .... so now... i just play Half-Life, and while its fun, i still want something more, and i want PlanetSide to become that something. Which it can easily do. How? Just make fighting in the same bases a little less repetative by changing what they have to offer and changing the strategy you use when approaching them, because right now only the players affect your strategy, and thats not enough for what I'm paying for.

[Hamma]

Originally posted by Airlift
I am old. I remember when we didn't demand an epic story to enjoy a game, because we were more interested in gameplay. I was never upset that Pac Man always ended up in yet another maze when he cleared this one. Defender, Galaga, Tron, Pit Fall, Contra, Bionic Commando, Karate Champ... all the games that are utterly ridiculous to the kids today had something more than the eye candy and super feature-set that are expected now (and almost always a letdown). They are just damn fun, and I still find some time to sift thru the roms to play them.

I think the reason most people get so bored is because they play too damned much and they play for too long at a setting. You should be bored after you sit at your computer playing the same game for 5 hours. That is boring. :thumbsup:

[Tricky]

I think the reason most people get so bored is because they play too damned much and they play for too long at a setting. You should be bored after you sit at your computer playing the same game for 5 hours. That is boring.

I unno man. I played Spyhunter for hours on end when I was a kid. Same with Mario, Contra, and most other NES titles.

[JackBoCracken]

It's not that Planetside's a bad game, it's that it could be an incredible game. Unfortunately, the developers have chosen to leave it as simply mediocre. That's okay, but eh...

I dunno. Why should we not want more? Isn't it bad to be apathetic? Shouldn't there be more strategy in a game about a global conflict between three empires?

[Airlift]

There are a lot of ways planetside could be better. I won't argue against that. I think it will generally get better than it is now, and that's why I did not cancel. I am having a blast flying the mosquito right now, but if I get bored, I will spend a couple days changing my character around. I haven't been an infiltrator in a long time, but I had a lot of fun doing that. Then I can go back to max or reif for a while, and if the lodestar can carry a deliverer, I definately want to do something with that again. I don't really get bored playing the game. That doesn't mean it isn't boring to someone else and that's ok.

when you're board with one map, you switch to another... it lowers the monotany, not PlanetSide though, same bases everywhere

The bases themselves are all the same, but the terrain in the SOI varies greatly from base to base and continent to continent. It is boring as hell to turtle up inside a base and wait for a cap, and I will almost never do it. It would still be boring even if every base were different.

They can add a story line, that would be fine with me. More variation in bases would be fine too. They could add flocks of birds for all I care, really. They've already announced a lot of things I'm interested in checking out, and what I really want to see down the road is urban combat and some respectable dark to fight in.

[Zarparchior]

But the fighting on the terrain is minimal at best Airlift... It's like playing ns_eclipse every damnible day with different outside backround pictures... :ugh:

[Pytagoras]

I fully agree with OMA on this one. I played Beta and had a wonderful time with it, but when I got retail, that feeling only lasted for a week or so. Planetside got a great potential, but it seems like the devs aren't using it.

I think the reason most people get so bored is because they play too damned much and they play for too long at a setting. You should be bored after you sit at your computer playing the same game for 5 hours. That is boring.

I used to play CS at least 5 hrs a day. I didn't get bored of it until I had played it for almost 3 years.

[JackBoCracken]

Originally posted by Airlift
The bases themselves are all the same, but the terrain in the SOI varies greatly from base to base and continent to continent. It is boring as hell to turtle up inside a base and wait for a cap, and I will almost never do it. It would still be boring even if every base were different.

What I don't get is that the terrain is one of the best things this game has going for it, and yet rarely do we see battles over, say, the only roads that can get through that range of mountains. Why? Well, mostly because I don't think there's honestly any reason to care about that mountain pass, even if it's the only close road that'll let vehicle support move north. It's just so much easier to find a fight by either letting them take back the tower of the base you just took, or find another base that doesn't require traversing over terrain. So you never see battles over the terrain that leads up to bases, only inside the bases themselves, which doesn't seem right...I mean in a war you wouldn't let the enemy just waltz up to the base, you'd try and stop them way before they got there. But in Planetside, it's better if you let them take the tower, because that means more kills and more XP. Heck, let them get inside the base to hack so you can resecure....it defies logic and basic strategy.

[Airlift]

People used to fight in the terrain all the time when you got shared kill exp. Bridge battles, huge field battles. That continues to be my biggest gripe with the game and my playing group have been spending most of our time soloing for best exp.

[RUEN]

I am having a blast flying the mosquito right now, but if I get bored, I will spend a couple days changing my character around. I haven't been an infiltrator in a long time, but I had a lot of fun doing that. Then I can go back to max or reif for a while, and if the lodestar can carry a deliverer, I definately want to do something with that again. I don't really get bored playing the game. That doesn't mean it isn't boring to someone else and that's ok.

The bases themselves are all the same, but the terrain in the SOI varies greatly from base to base and continent to continent. It is boring as hell to turtle up inside a base and wait for a cap, and I will almost never do it. It would still be boring even if every base were different.

I know what you mean, I'm not at all bored with the lack of weapons/armor in the game, playing around with them is fun, PlanetSide IS fun. However, the same will fall with Half-Life... If I'm bored playing one character (Soldier) I'll go play another (Engineer). Both differ totally in play style and strategy, and there are enough of them that by the time im bored with the last one, the first one grabs my interest again. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying variety in weapon/armor shouldn't be PlanetSide's grabbing point, because many games have that.

PlanetSide's grabbing point IS "play with thousands of people online at the same time you are." When people see that, they are blown away. The idea of a huge world to explore is a grand idea indeed but, when it gets to the point where you feel the land and environment isn't all that changing what with the terrain being damn near exact (i know there are snowy places, and mountainous places, but they're still for the most part the same, personally, my strategy doesn't change much when I come upon a base), you kinda take a step back and think... well, im fighting in what looks like the same area i did yesterday... doing the same thing... looking exactly alike... kinda drab.

The SOI is kinda like a half-Life map's walls, in that... you DON'T want to leave it, and for the most part, won't. so then... all you are doing is pretty much playing the same map over and over, with a few cosmetic differences. It seems to me, thats fine with you, but i have a feeling most will get bored playing the same map over and over (ala Half-Life).

EDIT: Cut into paragraphs

[Airlift]

I don't play that way at all. It sounds really boring to me, so i see what you mean. On the other hand, there is plenty of action in the skies and on the ground outside the more contested bases. There are a lot of caps where I never set foot inside the walls except to reload (and then only if there is no ams handy). And when the action dries up, I'm gone. You don't even get points for hanging around a secure base anymore.

[OneManArmy]

on a side note, I was hella entertained by those old school games too, but remember back in the day those games blew you away because it was never done before. no matter how crappy or simple they may seem they were actually quite complex for the time frame.

but we're not in that time frame anymore we know what designers are capable of with games today so its rightfuly so we expect more from them.

[XanderZane]

Bored?? I've been playing this game for two weeks now and have yet to become bored with it. I agree that the game could have been more complex with the environment, buildings, weapons, vehicles, etc... A lot more content will definitely need to be added to keep gamers playing, but for fans of FPS that has a unique flair to it, people will continue to play this game for years to come. I know the user base for this game in larger then AC2, I can tell you that.

If there are people who are already BORED with this game, then they need to uninstall it now and take it back to the store. This game is NOT meant for you. It's truly meant for fans of the genre. If you play it a couple times a week or more, and still enjoy the game after the 30 days are up, then your a fan of the genre. I know a few people who played Planetside for a week and gave up and went back to AO & DAoC. Hopefully the Devs will add personal Outfit Bases to some of the continents. That would be sweet.

Xander

[Tryndamere]

I believe that what the "bored" people are trying in vain to say, is that there is no incentive to play or do anything in the game besides go on the offensive and zerg bases. Some are fine with this, because they find their own fun and can blow people up forever, while others would like to see "more".

What is this "more" that people feel a desire to see?

In my opinion, the answer simply lies in the fact that they'd prefer to have some "meaning" added to the conflict they engage in. Add incentive to taking over a base besides being able to heal up, get a new vehicle, and move on. Otherwise, there is constant movement, and no defense. If all teams are on the offensive all the time, then we will all be attacking empty bases.

The devs should not EVER add "+5% reload speed" or anything that improves your ability to fire more accurately, etc. This is a 1st person shooter, your ability to kill should rely on the player.

However, what they CAN do, is add more incentives to holding territory. Whether it is XP bonuses or whether its tactical incentives (needing to hold certain types of bases to produce certain vehicles on a continent), adding another layer of strategy may be the "more" that these people want. One poster suggested what I think are some great ideas as to how to achieve this on another thread about adding incentives to holding/defending bases.

I think the key lies in finding a reason for people to defend. Doing this will create more epic battles.

[OneManArmy]

Look maybe I'm not 100% sure what is making planetside boring, but I do know fighting in the same bases over and over again IS boring. Not having to worry about being attaked unless you are at a tower or base is BORING. They spent a great deal of time on the terrain and weather yet its only used for getting from point A to point B.

For Example Battlefied is more exciting because you could be attacked at any time from anywhere, its just the nature of the game, same goes fro counter-strike and others. But in planetside its a fairly safe bet that you are won't get attacked until you get to the same base you've seen 100 times before...

[XanderZane]

Hey.. I totally agree with you Tryndamere. I too think there should be additional incentive and reasoning for attacking and defending a base over and over again. Right now, there is none. They also need to add some type of story to keep players interested in how the empires are progressing in their battle for world domination. It would be nice to actually have some NPC controlled soldiers in the game. You could deploy them to defend the bases while you were away. Something like this would be nice for the future. The people who are bored with this game now, will probably be coming back in 6 months when a lot more content has been added. Right now I'm happy with the way the game is and I enjoy just fighting against other players.

Like I said though, you really have to enjoy FPS type games to continue to play this game in the form it is now. Myself and the other 10 - 20 thousand people who are playing this game, feel the way I do. There's no doubt that a few 100 other people won't feel the same way and get bored of it. That's alright. There are a LOT more MMO games coming out in the next year.

Xander

[WildEagle]

indeed

[DarkDragon00]

Originally posted by Hamma
People get bored of all games. It's not for everybody.

I dont see any problems with this game other than stability right now, people moan and complain about "content'

Go play an RPG and go on a 12hr quest for some magical staff if you want your content. This is an FPS, its about killing, strategy, blowing shit up.


check, and mate!

[Zarparchior]

from IGN Review:
"...as far as I can tell, there really isn't much to fight over here. Across seven continents there are no cities. Across the seven huge continents, there are actually no signs of any Vanu archeological finds. In fact, I can't say there are really any landmarks at all across the planet. No Grand Canyons, no Pyramids, no Eifel Towers, no Victoria Falls... nothing to keep players interested or grounded into the fact that this is an interesting planet where people live. The only thing I saw that even vaguely resembled a landmark was some weird rock outcropping that I actually did think was a crashed space ship of some sort at first... oh well.

This isn't to say that the continents are all the same. But the differences from one continent to the next seems to be terrain, weather, and fauna... which in the grand scheme of things can only hold your interest for so long."

Maybe we're not all as crazy as you old wheezers think. :p

[Airlift]

You're right. The game is disappointing and it gets old fast. Scuse me while I go play. :rolleyes:

[Zarparchior]

You know what I want more than anything else in the world? The ability to tell other people what they like. It seems like all the old farts love nothing more than to do that. Is it possible that I haven't played PS in 3 days?! GASP!!!! Is it possible that you and I have very different views on a game that will hold our interest, or do we live in a world where Yours is the only Way?

My free month is ending and unless my friend gets to play soon will be quiting. But my friend is poor and has no job... and lazy to boot. So the chances of me not quiting are pretty slim...

I intend on watching the game and listening to at least these forums for awhile. If inprovements were to happen, I would certainly reactivate my account. But from what I'm seeing as of right now the game is not worth my time and money. This may eventually be "fixed," but it doesn't look like that day is today...

[Airlift]

Where did I tell you what to think, kid?

[Zarparchior]

Originally posted by Airlift
"You're right. The game is disappointing and it gets old fast. Scuse me while I go play. :rolleyes: "First off, I understand that as being sarcasm, since your aformentioned view is the total opposite of what you said right there, the fact you contridict yourself in the same sentence, and the telltale rolleyes smiley. So in reality, you are saying that the game is very enjoyable, does not get old fast, and you will continue to play if for some time. While you do not directly come out and say so, it's inferred that your view is so obviously correct and how much of a dumbass you must be if you do not see that, thus the sarcasm.

[Airlift]

You have a very good grasp of sarcasm, but not so good on your inferrences. I fully endorse you to cancel and not play to your heart's content. You can come back and resub later if you want, and if you don't, that's cool too. I made a sarcastic remark in response to a sarcastic remark, and I don't want you to think that means I'm trying to sway your opinion. I'm just stating mine, because that's what a forum is about. I hope that's cool with you, but if not, please write me at [email protected]

thanks!