So is the Prowler going to suck like it did in PS1?

**Malorn** · 2012-03-15, 07:47 PM

In PS1 the Prowler (at least for the first several years, I dont' know what happened in later years), was the worst tank by a significant margin.

1) It was slow. The TR theme is speed in PS2 so maybe this helps it.

2) It had good dps. After a few patches the Prowler did seem to have the highest damage throughput of all the tanks. It did less per-shot than the Vanguard, but it had a higher RoF that made it better in overall DPS.

3) It had 2 gunner spots, and both were required to fully utilize the prowler. The Gunner in the Vanguard had both a main gun and a 20mm gun. The Gunner in the Prowler had just the main gun, and a second gunner got a craptastic 12mm. You needed 3 people to get the effectiveness that 2 had in the Vanguard.

So is the Prowler going to have a niche in PS2 that makes it a good tank in some aspects?

The PS2.com description in the TR empire brief mentions this about the prowler:

The Prowler is a medium tank that is not only the fastest empire specific tank on the field but it can be armed to the teeth with extra weapon systems beyond the other empires medium tanks, making it one of the deadliest vehicles in the game.

The bit about the speed is a great step forward and helps make up for having less armor than the Vanguard, and less maneuverability than the Magrider.

The bit about "armed to the teeth with extra weapon systems beyond the other empires medium tanks" concerns me.

Does that mean the Prowler is once again a 3-man tank? Are we going to have to have 3-man crews in order to fully realize the Prowler's dps potential? Or are these extra weapon systems meant to make the Prowler the tank with the highest raw DPS?

Can we get some clarification on this? We've seen a lot about the Magrider and Vanguard but hardly anything about the Prowler. Please tell me it moved away from the extra-gunner stuff.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-15, 07:56 PM

The Prowler was fucking badass.

The main cannon's rate of fire created a little leeway if you missed a shot, it absolutely splattered infantry/MAXes, and the 12mm (later upgraded to the 15mm) was just gravy. Plus she was a lil chunky, which made mowing 2 or 3 people at the same time easy, even post mow nerf.

All that considered, I am glad they are making it a 2 man tank. At least, I think I read that at some point. Fairly confident I did.

Tom Peters · 2012-03-15, 07:58 PM

Hey, I loved the prowler.

What I didn't like was it requiring 3 people to be as effective as the other main battle tanks.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-15, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Peters

Hey, I loved the prowler.

What I didn't like was it requiring 3 people to be as effective as the other main battle tanks.

The third gunner made it more effective than the other 2 tanks, especially after the 12mm was upgraded to the 15.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-15, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

The third gunner made it more effective than the other 2 tanks, especially after the 12mm was upgraded to the 15.

But it required 50% larger crew to achieve that.

For the same manpower as 2 fully-effective prowlers you could bring 3 fully-effective Vanguards and they would own those prowlers.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-15, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

But it required 50% larger crew to achieve that.

For the same manpower as 2 fully-effective prowlers you could bring 3 fully-effective Vanguards and they would own those prowlers.

Oh yeah, there's no debating that. I certainly hope it's only a 2 man tank in Planetside 2.

Erendil · 2012-03-15, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

The third gunner made it more effective than the other 2 tanks, especially after the 12mm was upgraded to the 15.

Certainly better than the Vannie 1v1, but not so sure about the Mag, at least at range. It was undisputed king of the MBT's up close tho.

The Prowler's 100mm cannon alone had a DPS that was ~1.5x that that of the Vannie or Magrider main cannons so it could operate pretty well without a 15mm gunner, and almost twice that of the Vannie when you combine both of its weapons:

DPS

Magrider RG - 215
Vannie - 225
Prowler 100mm - 300
Mag RG + PPA - 316
Prowler 100mm + 15mm - 420

It was only 3KPH slower (57KPH) than the Vannie (60KPH) and 8KPH slower than the Mag (65KPH), which in most cases was negligible.

But it was in the middle for armour (Mag = 3500, Prowler = 4000, Van = 4500), which aside from the 3-crew config was its major design flaw. The high profile kinda sucked too.

I'll also add that the Mag was utter crap when going up against BFR's since it's main cannon did so little damage to them (120 DPS, vs 180 for the Prowler and 200 for the Vannie). So that was a balancing factor in the TR/NC's favor.

As for PS2, I would've hoped that SOE had learned their lesson about crew requirements vs power from their 8-year PS1 experience, but then they've given the MBTs' main cannons to the driver so that doesn't seem to be the case.

Sometime last year the Devs stated that the extra crew requirement for the TR was gone, but in the PS2 factions video Higby mentions that "a lot of [the TR's] weapons and a lot of their vehicles require more players to operate." So I think they may get stuck with it again.

Also, it may be the fastest MBT but I believe this time around it has the least amount of armour. If it also has an extra crew requirement I fear it may be in trouble. Hopefully if it is the Devs will listen to us and be able to balance it properly during Beta.

EDIT: switched Mag and Vannie places in the DPS table since the Mag RG has the smallest DPS.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-15, 08:30 PM

In all honesty ranking the 3 tanks from PS1, I would never put the prowler in any position other than dead-last.

The Vanguard was a solid, fast, high-armor, heavy-hitting tank with versatility in having the 150 & 20mm.

The Magrider had extreme accuracy, strafing, and the bonus driver & gunner weaponry.

As for which tank was best I'd put it as a tossup between the Vanguard and Magrider. There was great balance between those two tanks.

The Prowler always fell short and I could not in good conscience ever put it in the same caliber as the Vanguard or Mag. The 3-man crew was a big part of that problem. It lacked speed, had medium armor, and it lacked flexibility because it required 3 crewmembers to have the same/better effectiveness as the vanguard.

I want the tank balance to be such that all 3 tanks are a tossup, not just the mag & vannie.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-15, 08:35 PM

Even if you ranked it last, the Prowler was still capable. It wasn't a liability to the TR.

I have 20ish level characters with all three empires. They're all tank drivers/snipers. While I agree that the Magrider/Vanguard were interchangeably first and second, the Prowler was right there. All three were pretty damn close to one another.

BorisBlade · 2012-03-15, 08:51 PM

*edit* bleh you guys beat me to the real numbers. =)

**Malorn** · 2012-03-15, 08:55 PM

Good numbers; they illustrate the problem well.

The bit about the extra crew requirement is concerning. I would have thought the learned that lesson too.

The profile for the Prowler in PS2 looks lower from the screenshots.

If they allow 1-man crews for tanks, then the need to balance the tanks based on 1-man crews.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-15, 08:56 PM

With regards to speed, while the top speed was only 3kph less than the Vanguard, the Prowler accelerated a good bit slower.

It was by far my favorite tank to drive and gun, I was a sniper with that dual 100mm cannon.

Erendil · 2012-03-15, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Good numbers; they illustrate the problem well.

The bit about the extra crew requirement is concerning. I would have thought the learned that lesson too.

The profile for the Prowler in PS2 looks lower from the screenshots.

If they allow 1-man crews for tanks, then the need to balance the tanks based on 1-man crews.

They also have to balance them this time around based off the capabilities of the Lightning, which makes their job even harder.

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

With regards to speed, while the top speed was only 3kph less than the Vanguard, the Prowler accelerated a good bit slower.

It was by far my favorite tank to drive and gun, I was a sniper with that dual 100mm cannon.

Hehe I know what you mean.

The Lightning's 75mm had the same arc as the Prowler and the paper tank was by far my favorite vehicle in PS1. I luv'd raining down a shower of 75's on enemy MBT's from 300m away and watch their turret spin round and round trying to figure out WTH my shells were coming from...

And most gunners couldn't hit a tower much less a 75KPH minitank at that range...

Highwind · 2012-03-15, 10:12 PM

I would like to see them really deliver on the whole "TR = Speed" part of the PS2 balance schema. Give the TR the edge on Top Speed and on Acceleration, in a noticeable way, like 0 to 60 in a record time compared to the other 2 empires.

If you are defining VS Maneuverability separate from "TR Speed" you really need to sell TR on the whole Speed idea.

TR Speed would need to be highest top speed as a given. Acceleration should be impressive really showing off the powerful engine we all imagine the prowler to have (tons of "get up and go" when you floor it). I would argue it should also have very good brakes and braking speed even though it will be known for its top speed I think it would also be fun if it could stop on a dime. I would also like good reverse acceleration and top speed, but I think we could live without them if the forward movement of the prowler was really top tier like it should be.

VS Maneuverability should be things like turning speed, turning accuracy (less over drifting as part of the game engine like in PS1), side to side strafing, floating over some rocks and water etc. Combined with Maneuverability is "VS Accuracy" of fire in their main gun, and I think fits with the VS well.

And we already know where the NC tank fits with its power / armor etc.

Embracing "Speed" as TR's niche is almost counter to the PS1 TR mindset, but I think it fits with the rapid fire, mass bullet part of the empire as well. Our Speed of movement and Rate of fire will be unmatched and that feels just right.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-15, 09:38 PM

I was also a huge fan of the lightning. Somewhat underrated for the amount of hurt you could do with it. At range you could land 3-4 shells before the target even realized what was happening. I popped a lot of NC dudes firing phoenix's, and a whole load of over confident MAX's.