Certs & Customization - how it might look

[Malorn]

I just had a ton of ideas hit me in the car this morning on how these cert trees could get huge with tons of options and extreme precision control over what certs a role has available.

I'm going to give an example using the Vanguard only to illustrate just how much customization SOE could have in store for us and what sort of certs we could have.

Given there's 20 ranks to spread out these certs in and other possible prereqs. They talked about having a very big skill tree, so I started thinking about possible certs for a vanguard. Each upgrade option they provide could be a specific cert. This gives very precise control over what classes have what certs and capabilities. It also allows some classes to have a limited set of customization (for example, they could give engineers the ability to drive a vanguard, but not give them many of the advanced options below, while the dedicated "vanguard driver" class has access to everything).



Imagine if you had a cert set like this...

-- root cert --
* Vanguard basic - gives access to the vanguard, main gun only, 10m vehicle reuse timer.

-- secondary gun certs
* Vanguard mulit-purpose gun - gives access to the vanguard's 20mm gun (no resource cost)
* Vanguard AI mortar - alternative to 20mm, a ground-pounder of sorts [moderate resource cost]
* Vanguard AI scattercannon - alternative to 20mm, a narrow-cone scattercannon [moderate resource cost - NC specific upgrade, designed for urban combat]
* Vanguard AA flak - alternative to the 20mm, a set of flak rounds [moderate resource cost]
* Vanguard AA sparrow - alternative to the 20mm, a short burst of sparrow missiles (higher impact damage, lower overall dps to the flak) [expensive resource cost]

-- main gun options --
* Vanguard 150mm hellfire - lowers damage of the 150mm cannon by 20% but increases splash damage radius by 50%
* Vanguard 150mm tank buster - lowers splash damage radius by 50% but increases damage by 20%
* Vanguard 200mm artillery - puts a 200mm howitzer in place of the 150mm cannon. This lowers speed and maneuverability by 20%, lowers rate of fire by 33%, but increases damage by 100% and splash radius by 50% [expensive resources]

note: these main gun options could be different ammo types and the cert gives access to them

-- handling/armor options --
* Vanguard maneuverability [has 3 ranks] - option to trade 5% armor for 4% faster speed and 4% more maneuverability per rank [resource cost varies depending on rank used]
* Vanguard juggernaut [has 3 ranks] - option to trade 4% speed & 4% maneuverability for 7% more armor per-rank
* Vanguard amphibous - option to trade 20% armor, 10% speed, and 10% maneuverability for the ability to make the vanguard amphibious (just an example of the type of things they could do here)

-- General options --
* Vanguard rapid deployment [has 5 ranks] - lowers the vanguard vehicle timer by 1 minute per rank.
* Vanguard efficient manufacturing [has 5 ranks] - lowers resource cost of vanguard options by 5% per rank
* Vanguard adaptive camoflauge [NC unique trait] - option to add the NC Empire's adaptive camoflauge to the vanguard armor [expensive resource cost]
* Vanguard shielding [NC unique trait] - option to add the NC Empire's toggleable regenerative shield to the vanguard (firing lowers the shield, slowly drains energy over time and recharges when not in use, damage removes charge) [very expensive resource cost]

You can see from this example that there's a TON of of stuff they can do for each vehicle beyond simply providing access to it. People who want to specialize in one vehicle or style of gameplay could certainly do it. The "general" options were meant to be cert fillers and entry-barriers for people who wanted. Getting all of those certs above should take on the order of a month at least.

Note that all of the vanguard cert options above are tradeoffs. There are non-power related pure-bonuses, such as the veh timer lowering and the manufacturing. Those dont' affect gameplay. One of the options was interesting - the adaptive camoflauge. That's just an idea I wanted to throw out of something that they could do tha tis empire-specific and fits with the "guerrilla tactics" style of the NC. Its not a direct combat advantage, so it doesn't make the tank any more powerful than it was before or do anymore damage, but it could help the tank avoid detection and help mask NC troop movements in general.

Another one I wanted to point out was the "scattercannon" upgrade as a replacement for the 20mm. Another NC-specific upgrade, this one is designed for close-quarters urban combat use where infantry may be very close to the tank and the mortar and 20mm is not particularly effective. Again - its a tradeoff, and one that costs you resources.

These are just some ideas that came to mind on what all they could do with a complex cert tree full of upgrades. They could expand these at any time and choose a subset to go into any role. Perhaps only a dedicated "Vanguard driver" role can use them all.

You can imagine guns and gun upgrades could be the same way and have similar style upgrades. Imagine a few certs that offer different optical upgrades, from a red-dot style sight to an ACOG-style for longer range, or a sound-suppressor that lowers damage slightly. Lots of possibilities, all of which could be certs.

I'm liking where they can go with this system.

[xcel]

Very good post..

[Volw]

Excellent stuff. I think that's what we're going to see.

There could also be upgrades that change the vehicle purpose completely.

For example an engineering variant, with +200% HP with potentially extremely strong frontal armour value, -50% speed and an extremely short range 400mm howitzer, designed to push through heavily fortified positions.

Or a repair variant, with no cannon and some sort of repair crane. Also capable of scavenging other tanks for resources.

Command variant would be interesting as well, with for example interlink capabilities, access to UAV / Satellite view.

This system gives them unlimited possibilities really and an easy way to add a lot of new variants fairly rapidly.

[Malorn]

yes, "variants" could actually be deep certs in a particular vehicle tree that modify it.

You could consider that "200mm mobile artillery" option that I listed as a Vanguard variant.

With this system though the difference between a variant as we knew them in PS1 and an upgrade to the base vehicle is very blurry.

It's easy to see how a Vulture could just be an upgrade on a Liberator that increases its speed & maneuverability, increases the damage on the tank busters, and loses splash damage & cluster bombs. It would also modify the nose gun so it has a higher burst damage but much lower rate of fire.

Variants are effectively a set of heavy modifications that significantly changes the role.

[Malorn]

Another couple ideas I had buried in there was the empire-specific weaponry upgrades and the Empire-specific traits.

In the case above I listed NC adaptive camoflauge as a possible empire trait that could be attached to almost any vehicle (and infantry). It would cost resources of course but it would serve as a common resource sink and give the NC as a whole a little flavor and uniqueness compared to the other empires. I got this idea from the camoflauge the NC infantry were wearing in the trailer and what Matt said about how they want the empires to be more distinct along their themes, with the NC being labeled as the "Guerrilla tactics" empire. Having units that are a little harder to spot with the naked eye seems like a good perk for the guerrilla warfare empire.

The shield that was on the MAX units might be another NC trait. Imagine a vanguard or enforcer with a toggle-able shield.


The VS might have speed-boosts as a unique trait. Their vehicles like magriders and threshers might have an optional afterburner-type speed boost, only obviously much shorter lived but could allow them that superior maneuverability and versatility that is their trademark. This is like a vehicle version of the MAX jump jets.

Another type of unique trait for VS might be the instant-ammo type switching. In PS1 it existednon the Quasar, Pulsar, and Beamer, but you could also see it being attached to other weapons and vehicle platforms.


The TR could have the "Overdrive" theme applied to more than just the MAXes. Imagine Overdrive on a Prowler for short-duration massive firepower increase. That really fits with their suppressive fire theme. Would have to be careful applying it though, it could easily be OP heh. This could be similar to the "lockdown" theme though. When vehicles use overdrive they could suffer a significant movement & maneuverability penalty during and shortly after it expires, as if they are using all available power to get a smuch damage output as possible. That would also put them in stark contrast with the VS, who's speed boost trait is just the opposte, and with the NC who has more defensive traits like camoflauge and shields.

I think you get the idea here. These sort of things could add empire-specific flavor and also be cert upgrades. Most importantly they are resource-sinks.

[Hamma]

Aye awesome post, I also believe this is very close to what we will see and I am excited about it.

There's so much opportunity with upgrading vehicles and weapons. It will make the gameplay and battles large scale but at the same time very different than they are now.

[Grognard]

Originally Posted by Volw

For example an engineering variant, with +200% HP with potentially extremely strong frontal armour value, -50% speed and an extremely short range 400mm howitzer, designed to push through heavily fortified positions.

OMFG I want to hear that... not that I even need to be on the same continent... "Big Bertha"... future style!

[Goku]

Between their comments relating to speed, handling, and using other weapon attachments I wouldn't be shocked seeing a similar skill tree. If it proves to be like this I am already planning on having an all out tank character, all out grunt, and mix between the two. That is probably going to be the best way for me to retain my current play style. My Outfit often ran tank columns with 5-10 tanks depending on how many we had on. I was normally the lead tank/commander, so I will need every bit of advantage I can get when doing this.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Goku

Between their comments relating to speed, handling, and using other weapon attachments I wouldn't be shocked seeing a similar skill tree. If it proves to be like this I am already planning on having an all out tank character, all out grunt, and mix between the two. That is probably going to be the best way for me to retain my current play style. My Outfit often ran tank columns with 5-10 tanks depending on how many we had on. I was normally the lead tank/commander, so I will need every bit of advantage I can get when doing this.

In eve, they make alts useless by letting you only train one character at a time.

This may be the way of things here as well. If it is, alts would be of minimal value.

Originally Posted by 2coolforu

I was also thinking that we would get upgrades like

'Ablative Plating' - 10% less damage from energy weapons 10% more damage from KE weapons

This is an armor upgrade that provides protection from the Vanu Sovereignty's energy weaponry but makes you more vulnerable to the Terran's Kinetic weaponry. There would be an opposite like 'Composite armor' that protects against K.E. but is weak against energy weapons

'Explosive-Reactive Armor' - 10% Less damage from C.E. Weapons, 10% more damage from K.E. weapons.

This would be a Vanu upgrade that strengthens against NC weaponry but weakens against TR weaponry.

Alternatively weapons like rockets that infantry use could be C.E. damage and tank weaponry could be K.E. damage, so ERA armor would provide a bonus against Infantry AV weapons (for urban combat) and an upgrade like 'Armor Plates' or 'Composite Armor' 'Depleted Uranium Armor' would give a bonus against tank based weapons for open combat.

I'm not terribly keen on the idea of resistance plating in an fps. The weapons will already have roles based on pure physical traits.. Adding resistances like that is a mechanic added to dice roll games to keep one weapon/spell from being useful for everything. In PS, no weapon will be useful for anything. Its enough that an anti-tank weapon is already useful only for tanks, etc.



@OP. Not a bad list. A few things I'd see changed, like I feel a coax gun for the gunner should be standard as well.


One thing I'd like to see is if the gunner has these certs while the driver doesn't, they can still pull the upgrades, at the least for the gun stuff, but ideally for all things. I don't want to see a situation where the guy with the most certs is always pressured to be the driver.

[Malorn]

That's a good point about the resistance plating. That might be a little overboard in terms of complexity and gameplay concepts. Neat concept but may not fit well or be too overwhelming.

[razor851]

I personally don't like this type of shit at all. When I see a Reaver coming at me, I want to know exactly the amount of damage it's going to do to me, where its blind spots are, and how much armor it has. Adding this RPG type of customization is going to turn a lot of people like me away from even buying the game.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by razor851

I personally don't like this type of shit at all. When I see a Reaver coming at me, I want to know exactly the amount of damage it's going to do to me, where its blind spots are, and how much armor it has. Adding this RPG type of customization is going to turn a lot of people like me away from even buying the game.

FPS games already have this style of customization.

In BFBC2 you have no idea whether the guy you're shooting is using magnum rounds or whether he's using body armor instead. You also don't know whether his shotgun has slugs or shot. Is it a pump shotgun or did he just use an automatic shotgun semi-auto? Impossible to know until you see the death camera.

I dont' see it any different here.

[razor851]

Originally Posted by Malorn

FPS games already have this style of customization.

In BFBC2 you have no idea whether the guy you're shooting is using magnum rounds or whether he's using body armor instead. You also don't know whether his shotgun has slugs or shot. Is it a pump shotgun or did he just use an automatic shotgun semi-auto? Impossible to know until you see the death camera.

I dont' see it any different here.

I know and I actually dislike BF and CoD games for that very reason. I guess I'm a retard but I prefer games like Quake where you can see the persons gun and react accordingly.

[2coolforu]

Originally Posted by razor851

I know and I actually dislike BF and CoD games for that very reason. I guess I'm a retard but I prefer games like Quake where you can see the persons gun and react accordingly.

Then make the upgrades have a visible component -> ERA upgrade would add ERA Tiles onto the glacis of the tank, so then you know you shouldn't use C.E. weaponry and instead you should use K.E. weaponry.

If the upgrades added visible differences then you can easily judge what the vehicles capabilities are. I mean, you can obviously see what changes a soldier has made to his armor and weapon as well, a scope is pretty visible as is increased armor or a silencer.

[Malorn]

There could very well be cosmetic changes to the vehicle as a result of these upgrades.

A more maneuverable vanguard might have a little bigger engine in the back, or a few less armor plates (or both) to indicate that it's been modified for additional speed and reduced armor.

the 200mm howitzer option would obviously have a much bigger cannon.

In the case of aircraft, they could have additional wing bits or tail-fins and stuff like that apart from the obvious aditional weaponry like rocket pods and what not.

They might plan on doing that, which could explain why they are cutting things like vehicle jacking. If there's cosmetic effects then the work load for Tramell's team goes through the roof. However with no vehicle jacking they can use resources that would be spent on the different versions of vehicles and instead work on cosmetic changes to accompany upgrades. From a balance perspective, Vehicle jacking would really screw with empire-specific upgrades and the cert system due to all the extra customization and possible empire-specific certs that may not exist on the other empires (or not have a direct counterpart).

Nothing prohibits cosmetic changes...in fact I owuld expect it for some of them, especially weapon changes. If my tank has a scattercannon secondary gun instead of a 20mm, that should be obvious, and any infantry spying the tank should see that and know that their best option is keeping distance.