Lets talk about the ressource system. Right now, its borderline Pay to Win

basti · 2013-06-21, 11:00 AM

A harsh statment, i know, but let me explain.

With the new resource prices for vehicles and Maxes, resources now actually matter. However, the resource bonus from boosts and Subscriptions screw greatly with the concept.

A total free player is pretty much shafted, a player with Auraxium Subscription and a resource boost has only small problems.

There are several ways to fix this:

A. We revert back to useless resources by making stuff cheap again. In the end, the whole resource system could be taken out then, as it would be entierly pointless.

B. we get rid of resource boosts, means everyone, regardless of how much money he spends, gets the same amount of resources.

Option A is easy to archive, but removes great potential for a deep metagame out of the game. We all want more meta and more strategy, so lets not go there.

Lets take a look at option B instead: Taking away a bonus subscribers get will be a pain in the ass, but the vast majority of subscribers would propably be okay with it, if not even happy, if we give them something nice in return. For once, they propably get a better game in return, with a deep metagame that involves not just continent locking and a global lattice (im sure this stuff is still coming, no reason to belive otherwise), as well as a deep resource system that affects the strategys we dream up.

However, people also want a direct compensation for the loss of the resource boost. So i suggest: Kill the resource boosts for subscribers, give them another 6 months XP boost.

As for the Alpha squad boost, i suggest it becomes a 100% XP boost with no resource boost. Most of the Alpha squad boosts are running out in 2 months or so anyway.

Whatya think?

GeoGnome · 2013-06-21, 11:07 AM

I bought a boost for XP, I didn't care about Resources. I still don't care about the resources. The whole system should be overhauled, and looks like it Will be overhauled.

Yeah, +1

Chaff · 2013-06-21, 11:16 AM

1) I like how on first glance, it looks like you're putting what youi think is best for PS2 first.

2) I need more time to get my "big picture" opinion finalized.

3) I kind of like what may be at least part of their goal ..... REDUCE vehicle spamm. It's quite possible they're doing this to try to give infantry POP a small to moderate boost in numbers - while reducing vehicle populations. It will make vehicles MORE important. It may FORCE better cooperation & planning as to when, where, and how large groups of ground, or air vehicles, are pulled.

The way vehicles were so easily acquired, you could pull a MBT, esf, or Lightning just to go out and get some easy revenge kills vs an infantry you couldn't beat 1v1 (if you were outside a vehicle).

If people can't spawn MBT, Harrassers, Sundy's & Lightnings at will ..... perhaps ...... perhaps ..... it will promote better cooperative strategies .... at least down to the Platoon level. Hopefully down to the Squad level.

4) Is it P2W ? Well, they have to generate MONEY to help fund a F2P game. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE INHERENT CONFLICTS OF INTEREST in how to generate revenue streams in a F2P game. Without-a-doubt, the Higher Subs have a P2W element. I see it as a Pay-for-a-slight-theoretical-edge .... not so much P2W.
Sure, you can pull your Max, ESF, Sundy, whatever ...... a little sooner & more readily than a 100% F2P can. IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER ESF Pilot ..... it simply makes you a pilot that can pull your replacement plane a little sooner. P2W ? Somewhat. Premium Subscribers also gain no more than making PS2 a P2D (pay-to-die).

The Premium Sub Players give the community of players MORE TARGETS ...... the XP thier deaths provide the community essentially give the playerbase back the certs (AND XP) that Sub-Players get via their Premium Sub.

I have a strong tendency to get cynical. It's often justified in this game, but I think SONY actually is NOT doing enough for their Premium Subscribers.
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CrimsonTemplar · 2013-06-21, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by basti

As for the Alpha squad boost, i suggest it becomes a 100% XP boost with no ressource boost. Most of the Alpha squad boosts are running out in 2 months or so anyway.

Whatya think?

I'd just let Alpha Squad run its course, since most will run out in 1-2 months as you say. It's one thing less to deal with to be honest.

Anyway to the rest of your post:

I don't think it's like that boosts will disappear, no matter what we think. Don't misunderstand me. I do agree with some of what you say but of course boosts are likely here to stay for some time.

They could become simply cert-based purchases or resource-based purchases, which would add some kind of strategy, for instance deciding on what a player/squad/outfit needs to achieve a goal etc (bad example I know, couldn't think of a better one). Beta Implants back in the day, did require auraxium and other resources to purchase so it's not entirely a far-fetched suggestion. However of course, you could run into the old 'rich get richer, poor get poorer' scenario as indeed what happened in early beta. And with subs this would make little difference on its own.

Making xp only-boosts available by SC/certs is a possibility, particularly as non-paying players would have a chance to accumulate certs and buy something to ease their circumstances. Would make earning certs a little more 'worth-it' and perhaps encourage objective play, who knows?

I'm just throwing out suggestions and ideas but really I don't know. Thing is this recent resource tweaking isn't the final product, for the revamp is due to happen at the end of July/beginning of august and even then we don't know if most aspects will be finalised or what it will entail.

One option is revamping the subscriptions but do you see that happening any time soon?

You mention Basti about taking a bonus away but givings subs 'something nice in return'. What exactly do you have in mind? I'm intrigued to know.

Stanis · 2013-06-21, 11:30 AM

I replied to your post on the SOE forums.

Summary : lack of logistic fragility.

There is no price to pay in managing all the territory gains. It is simply winner gets more win.

Gonefshn · 2013-06-21, 11:30 AM

I am an auraxium member and have a resource boost and I agree everyone should get resources at the same rate. getting certs faster for paying I understand because that is progression. but resources only have to do with gameplay so they should not be affected by money

basti · 2013-06-21, 11:32 AM

Crimson, did you read the post? :o

Subs get another 6 months XP boost for free.

The problem is, and i propably didnt make that clear: The upcoming ressource overhaul will not work as long as there is a difference in up to 100% between what a paying player and a free player gets for ressources, even if they do exactly the same stuff.

You just cant create a proper ressource system under those circumstances. So we need to get rid of the ressource boosts.

Stanis · 2013-06-21, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Gonefshn

I am an auraxium member and have a resource boost and I agree everyone should get resources at the same rate. getting certs faster for paying I understand because that is progression. but resources only have to do with gameplay so they should not be affected by money

I choose to throw about £15 a month at SOE.
That player chooses not to.

Yes. I paid. My equipment does the same as theirs.
They get to have fun sometimes.
I get to have fun more times.

I see a stark difference between subscriber only weapons or abilities and an increase in frequency with which shiny toys can be used.

kubacheski · 2013-06-21, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by basti

We revert back to useless ressources by making stuff cheap again.
....
Whatya think?

I think the use of the term WE is excessively presumptuous.

Do you (or any of us) have the ability to make such a change? or even influence such a change? (not trying to be a dick, just stating facts)

SOE doesn't go F2P do this out of the kindness of their hearts. F2P is just that, you can play for free. It says nothing about being on a level playing field with players who use microtransactions or subscribe. Hell yes it's pay to win, no matter what lies SOE wasnts to spew. There is no F2P game that isnt P2W. The ONLY exception is if there are no player based forms of revenue. i.e. you can't get anything for real cash.

P2W simply varies by degrees in different games.

I do find it amazing that after release there are such major modifications to the game on an all to regular basis that change the gameplay completely. It's a completely different game from the end of Beta. And much more closely resembling the game they described before Alpha, but completely changed at Gold release. Now they're reverting back to the Alpha description, lattice, resources mean something, stalker cloak, etc, etc. Sounds like they're running an extended Beta that many people are subscribing to and paying micro-trans. Player funded Beta.

Shogun · 2013-06-21, 11:39 AM

scrap the whole ressource concept, it doesn´t work!

it is not even half baked!

i didn´t believe i would say this ever, but basti is right here!
it is unfair and totally direct pay 2 win now. ressources ARE power and now soe is selling power.

so immediately roll back to useless ressources or turn the whole system off until somebody implements a ressource idea that actually works.
we had a lot of discussions here with ideas for a meaningful ressource system, so i am not going to start it all over again. we don´t get any feedback from devs anyhow. so i will just assume they have read all the threads but give a shit about it.

basti · 2013-06-21, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Stanis

I choose to throw about £15 a month at SOE.
That player chooses not to.

Yes. I paid. My equipment does the same as theirs.
They get to have fun sometimes.
I get to have fun more times.

Thats the current ressource system.

Now, if we want a deep, meaningful ressource system that affects strategy and improves the meta, then we cant have a difference in paying vs non paying.

AThreatToYou · 2013-06-21, 11:51 AM

I opt for removal of resource boosts.

Chaff · 2013-06-21, 12:11 PM

.
It's a game. It does occur in the "real world". The real World revolves around the all mighty dollar. And yes, PS2 is very much borderline P2W. However, I see it more as P2D. You can die in Maxes & vehicles more often. Big whoop.

Come up with an answer to how Sony can have a good game, but still be able to SELL enough "stuff" (perks/benefts) to generate the necessary money to make it worth their while.

FTP ?

C'mon ..... IT IS NOT FREE TO CREATE OR SUPPORT THIS GAME. They have a need & a right to generate revenue.

F2p can do EVERYTHING a Sub-Player can do. As currently constructed, they can't pull vehicles (or Maxes) quite as frequently as those who pay ? Well, boo hoo hoo hooo hoo.

I see a game-changing benefit hidden in the changes. They may be intentionally pushing the game more to Infantry-Driven warfare. THAT could well do wonders for the infamous "Metagame" debate. I have to see how the game plays the next few weeks. I don't know the number of Paying Subs vs 100% F2P players.

I've heard & read page after page of complaints of how it's too damn easy to spam from one vehicle class to the next. Well, that will slow down to some extent .... FOR EVERYONE. The Premium Sub crowd will pull more often than the F2P guy, but they too will see a decrease in how often they can pull Max, Air, or land vehicles.

It's fair. It's reality. If it bothers you, PAY. You can't have everything you want in life. Want more ? Pay for it, or work harder in-game to get it. It's fair.

People may either be too frugal with their money, flat-out cheap, or truly can't afford to pay an extra $10-to-$20 per month.

Those that PAY ..... "EARN" SOMETHING FOR THIER MONEY. Not only is it the way the World works. It's the way this game survives. They're willing to pay for some perks or benefits. If you're NOT .... you have no right to cry.

Pull your head out people. PS2 is not a philanthropic undertaking. This is a game - not Welfare.

.... to imply Premium Subs affects the Metagame is ludicrous.

I don't think they're worth the money. The Preferential treatment to get onto Continents is nice. Other than that, they don't give enough benefits to make it worth my money. I can afford to pay a Premium Sub. When mine runs out - I will NOT renew it .... unless they IMPROVE the benefits it gives. I prefer to play infantry anyway.

Sony has to consider how many people will PAY for any level of Subscription. They have no alternative but to give the customers enough to keep new Subs coming online ..... while also retaining as many paying Sub customers as they can.

Cut Sub Benefits ? You are severing the hand that feeds the masses their F2P game.

Classic Catch-22. Money talks. Bullshit walks.
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Crator · 2013-06-21, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Chaff

.... to imply Premium Subs affects the Metagame is ludicrous..

I had something typed up in the other P2W thread but decided to not post it. Mainly because, premium subs can affect the over-all "win" condition for an empire. So I don't think it's ludicrous to think that it can't affect it. Just depends on how many players are paying and how many aren't, per empire. There's probably a healthy mix of both though. And I agree with everything else you said.

The definition of pay-to-win is something that free players cannot obtain in the game that would help them "win". Most here are using the thing that free players cannot obtain to mean: The speed at which you can obtain resources to pull vehicles and obtain consumables. Does that "speed to obtain" equal pay-to-win? Perhaps..... Is it fair for SOE to charge for that? I think so. Are the resource cost values in-line with cost for a sub or single-boosters? Perhaps....

Dreamcast · 2013-06-21, 12:26 PM

I know some people in my thread were saying Resources = Convenience....No is not.

Certs = Convenience...Certs give you access to sidegrades(or just slight advantages) and options(to spend ur resources on like Medical kits,Mines,etc).

Cert XP bonus is not really buying power.

Resource = More of Certain POWERFUL THINGS THAT ARN'T SIDEGRADES!!!

For Example Medical kits,instakill proxy mines, etc.....That isn't a sidegrade that straight up benefits players

Another Example Tanks/Planes/etc.....That isn't a sidegrade that straight up benefits players .

Resources = Power....is not a sidegrade, their is no down side to having resources to buy anything you want.

Is Pay 2 Win to have a resource advantage over Free players.

Think about it the whole game right now revolves around Resources, we are fighting for 10% resource discounts lol.

Bottom Line Resources boost should be gone...Keep XP boost because that really is convenience.

If SOE Wants to make Resources meaningful than make it for all players.This will require everybody to make choices on how we use our resources and not have some guy who pays have the option to get all powerful things when ever he wants.