Remove camping spawn buildings from meta game

Miir · 2012-10-17, 02:22 PM

Bring back the spawn generators instead.

I'm not sure why it was removed in the first place but I'd rather the fight end than just sit and camp each bases spawn room at every encounter.

As an example: Yesteday I was at Snake Ravine with about 30 magriders camping the spawn room as we waited for the base to flip. In the spawn room there was about 10-15 NC that kept trying to push out. Each time ending in them being killed. I do see a purpose for this. It was boring as hell to sit there in the mags and I'm sure the other guys weren't having much fun either.

So why is this even a part of the game?

evilsooty · 2012-10-17, 02:30 PM

Agreed.

FatherJack · 2012-10-17, 02:30 PM

Because when the SCUs were at smaller outposts my personal experience 100% of the time went like this.

1. Arrive at base.
2. Run to SCU, find it completely undefended and blow it up.
3. Cap base with minimal resistance.

Fights at outposts are now actually interesting. When I am camped by 30 tanks I just spawn somewhere else, the battle is lost. I see people getting spawn camped who come out of the door to face a 20 man firing squad and all I think is why?
You will be waiting for the XP anyway at least you have something to shoot at.

Miir · 2012-10-17, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by FatherJack

Because when the SCUs were at smaller outposts my personal experience 100% of the time went like this.

1. Arrive at base.
2. Run to SCU, find it completely undefended and blow it up.
3. Cap base with minimal resistance.

Fights at outposts are now actually interesting. When I am camped by 30 tanks I just spawn somewhere else, the battle is lost. I see people getting spawn camped who come out of the door to face a 20 man firing squad and all I think is why?
You will be waiting for the XP anyway at least you have something to shoot at.

What it was then and what it now is exactly the same. Just at different ends of the spectrum. They just need to find that middle ground where things encourage a good fight and discourage a drawn out campy ending.

Tatwi · 2012-10-17, 03:49 PM

It doesn't matter where they move the spawn area to, there will always be a point where the attackers can spawn camp. SCU, as FatherJack pointed out, only served to end a battle before it began. I don't think that any conventional wisdom will solve these issues, because if that were the case they would already be resolved.

Teleporting defenders out of the spawn room to one of several locations might help. Drop pods instead of spawn rooms might help. Large underground facilities with many spawn points might help.

But the best solution is already in the game:

Spawn somewhere else and come back with a bigger offensive than what the enemy has taking the point.

Miir · 2012-10-17, 04:32 PM

Right now every battle ends in spawn camping and I don't see why we should just accept that's how the game needs to be. I don't know about you but I don't play this game to camp. I play for the big battles. Once it gets to that camp stage it needs to end not drag out.

Why not make each outpost easier to defend? Give them some turrets, shielded walls? and like you said a couple spawn locations or escape tunnels or maybe change the layout of the outposts so it forces players out of their tanks and on foot? Add more randomness. Maybe if you own the base you can pod drop in at any time rather than spawn. That would allow you to move outside of the camp zone and push back in or at least create enough of a diverion to push out.

If the SCU had the same sort of system as the Shield Generators where you need to over load them. That might give people time to counter the attack. That might not be a bad option.

Even taking out static spawn points altogether might be a interesting thing to try for a week. Just to see how people adapt.

Tatwi · 2012-10-17, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Miir

Right now every battle ends in spawn camping and I don't see why we should just accept that's how the game needs to be. I don't know about you but I don't play this game to camp. I play for the big battles. Once it gets to that camp stage it needs to end not drag out.

Why not make each outpost easier to defend? Give them some turrets, shielded walls? and like you said a couple spawn locations or escape tunnels or maybe change the layout of the outposts so it forces players out of their tanks and on foot? Add more randomness. Maybe if you own the base you can pod drop in at any time rather than spawn. That would allow you to move outside of the camp zone and push back in or at least create enough of a diverion to push out.

If the SCU had the same sort of system as the Shield Generators where you need to over load them. That might give people time to counter the attack. That might not be a bad option.

Even taking out static spawn points altogether might be a interesting thing to try for a week. Just to see how people adapt.

I am all for doing all of the things you suggested.

I don't want to just accept that all fights should naturally devolve into spawn camping until the base flips, because you're right that it is boring. We all do it any way, because we may as well do something while waiting for the base to cap and it's the most efficient way to quash any internal resistance.

It would be very interesting to see what happens at outposts if:

The hack -> destroy -> useless until base flip issue to turrets and terminals bug was fixed.
Outposts had terminals for Sunderers rather than spawn rooms.
Sunderers had an exclusive deploy radius that prevented other S/G-AMS from being deployed too close (this is already incoming).
Higby's tug-of-war capture system end up being more than just "pile more live bodies into a base than the enemy and wait". No idea how this system actually works, but I am hopeful.

PoisonTaco · 2012-10-17, 05:27 PM

You get to choose where you spawn. If you keep spawning at a base that's being spawn camped, why do you keep spawning there? Going to hope that by some chance the tank outside is going to get bored?

You have many options to choose from when you spawn. Why do people keep spawning at the one that's being camped? Spawn at the next closest point and launch a counter attack to retake the outpost you've lost.

EVILoHOMER · 2012-10-17, 05:34 PM

Just bring back hacking and allow the hacking of the force fields and make it so you can destroy spawn tubes.

That way you can stop them from spawning like in Planetside so you don't have to spawn camp.

SixShooter · 2012-10-17, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Miir

Bring back the spawn generators instead.

I'm not sure why it was removed in the first place but I'd rather the fight end than just sit and camp each bases spawn room at every encounter.

As an example: Yesteday I was at Snake Ravine with about 30 magriders camping the spawn room as we waited for the base to flip. In the spawn room there was about 10-15 NC that kept trying to push out. Each time ending in them being killed. I do see a purpose for this. It was boring as hell to sit there in the mags and I'm sure the other guys weren't having much fun either.

So why is this even a part of the game?

The game needs EMP grenades to solve this one. EMP spam, escape the spawn room, fight on! Alternatley, spawn elsewhere and return with a couple Libs to clear out the MBT's.

maradine · 2012-10-17, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

There needs to be a bunch of ways to leave a spawn room including tunnels.

Then the tunnel exits get camped. This is Tatwi's earlier point - there will come a time in every fight where it is effectively over, and continuing to put bodies into the grinder serves no purpose (not that people won't do it). If the defenders continue to spawn, on the other hand, they still have the will to retake, and so the attackers can't leave. Should it be otherwise?

Stardouser · 2012-10-17, 06:54 PM

Actually, they have hit upon the solution to undefended spawn generators. You now have to trigger an explosion that takes a minute to happen, that would given defenders time to react.

So, add another spawn room and/or tunnel exits to all bases, and add that spawn gen back to small bases.

Whiteagle · 2012-10-18, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Tatwi

Drop pods instead of spawn rooms might help.

This is probably the best idea, as it not only prevents camping but the pods themselves could make Tanks more cautious about approaching bases.

Originally Posted by Tatwi

Spawn somewhere else and come back with a bigger offensive than what the enemy has taking the point.

And how do you suggest we get this army?
Pull them out of our ass?

Fact is, some of us don't have huge Outfits backing us up, so reinforcements are most likely NOT coming because they are too busy sitting on the FUCKING CROWN to give a damn about the rest of their Faction...

Hell, I'm usually the only guy IN my Outfit online most of the time...

Originally Posted by PoisonTaco

You have many options to choose from when you spawn. Why do people keep spawning at the one that's being camped? Spawn at the next closest point and launch a counter attack to retake the outpost you've lost.

Because, sometime, your only only other choice of Spawn Point is a kilometer and a half away!

Hell, if there was actual coordination in this game, voluntarily throwing yourself into the meat-grinder could be a valid stalling tactic.
The more time the enemy is focused on killing you at that particular base, the more time your allies would have to mount a proper counter-offensive.

In other words, those greedy kill-whores might end up screwing their entire Faction's push over just because they wanted to pad their K/D.

Figment · 2012-10-18, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tatwi

It doesn't matter where they move the spawn area to, there will always be a point where the attackers can spawn camp. SCU, as FatherJack pointed out, only served to end a battle before it began. I don't think that any conventional wisdom will solve these issues, because if that were the case they would already be resolved.

Teleporting defenders out of the spawn room to one of several locations might help. Drop pods instead of spawn rooms might help. Large underground facilities with many spawn points might help.

But the best solution is already in the game:

Spawn somewhere else and come back with a bigger offensive than what the enemy has taking the point.

Or just create a multilevel spawnroom where there's a number of corridors between the spawnroom and exit, potentially an underground spawnroom with tunnels to various buildings with spawn control unit and control console within the same building so those guys camping actually have to get out of their tanks and fight their way in and hold positions within reach of the defenders, while the defenders can eventually use high ground to fight the tanks instead of relying on two exits that are both camped...

Where have I seen that before?

Canaris · 2012-10-18, 04:44 AM

So far I'm still of the opinion that PS1s style of having to overcome the defenders bastion of the spawn rooms is a superior meta game than any of the PS2 versions I've tried.

Tho to have the bastion mechanic it would require most of the spawn rooms in all bases and outposts being redesigned and moved to more secure and defensible central locations.