Driver/Gunners... NO!

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-10, 02:21 PM

I made this comment in TRG forums, when someone brought it up, and I'm going to repeat it here.

In Arma 2, where you were saddled with AI that could neither drive nor shoot, I often wished you could solo a tank, at least as an option... However, in Planetside, there is no manpower shortage, so there is no reason to do away with multi-crew vehicles.

This is one of the tradeoffs for the increased firepower of the larger vehicles/tanks, requiring more people, more teamwork, and it also results in a more effective (depending on who's in it) tank. Driving AND gunning at the same time is a lot for one person to do, that's why it doesn't exist in hardly ANY context in RL. The only instance I can think of is the KA-50... which notably was dropped in favor of the KA-52, which is TWO man with a dedicated pilot and dedicated gunner.

Having a one man tank results in lots of terrible driving and bad aim, or a stationary/slow moving tank with ok aim. Don't believe me? Log in PS1 and watch the first Lightning driver that goes by

Especially in the context of tanks, this is just a bad idea. There's plenty of people to go around to fill all slots in a vehicle.

Furret · 2012-07-10, 02:23 PM

From what I've seen, the change was made because the player who put cert points into the vehicle only got to drive it around. I think they overreacted, and would've preferred that the tanks be set up like the Magrider, where the drive gets a weak, but effective anti-infantry gun, and the main gunner gets the powerful cannon.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-10, 02:28 PM

@Furret

Ya know, you're right. I hadn't thought about that. I agree a concession of some sort might be more appropriate. However, the flip side of this is, when you cert for the tank, you know you're certing for the DRIVER position basically. If you want to gun, get in somebody else's tank.

A partial compromise, (in addition/besides what you said) since it is YOUR frickin' tank... Share kills made while you're in it.... Nevermind. Now that I think about it, being in a squad you DO share kills, in essence, or experience at least, same thing.

Coax MG for all drivers. He can still participate in fighting. He still needs to focus on his damn driving, and not trying to find stuff for himself to shoot.

MrKWalmsley · 2012-07-10, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

@Furret
However, the flip side of this is, when you cert for the tank, you know you're certing for the DRIVER position basically. If you want to gun, get in somebody else's tank.

You are forgetting a pretty simple and obvious solution to this. Build the damn thing, then get out, and let your partner get in, thereby taking the driver seat. Seriously, I cannot see how you did not see this blatant fix which would take only a few seconds.

Furret · 2012-07-10, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by MrKWalmsley

You are forgetting a pretty simple and obvious solution to this. Build the damn thing, then get out, and let your partner get in, thereby taking the driver seat. Seriously, I cannot see how you did not see this blatant fix which would take only a few seconds.

Did you even play ps1? You need the cert to drive it, not just to pull it.

SgtExo · 2012-07-10, 02:28 PM

I have never had trouble driving a tank and shooting at the same time. As a gunner I always know exactly where i need to be, and when to move, so i prefer to have it that the driver is the gunner. Unless you are part of a team that often play together, having separate driver and gunner seats are not effective.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-10, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by SgtExo

I have never had trouble driving a tank and shooting at the same time. As a gunner I always know exactly where i need to be, and when to move, so i prefer to have it that the driver is the gunner. Unless you are part of a team that often play together, having separate driver and gunner seats are not effective.

This is true. However, why does that necessitate Rambo gameplay? PS is intended to encourage teamplay. Join an outfit, find a gunny.

Also, they're talking about VOIP, so you'd probably be able to more efficiently communicate with the other person in the vehicle, even if they are a random.

-edit

Not saying you're wrong. It's just a discussion. There are always exceptions, and some people may have no trouble with it. It's more from the standpoint of encouraging group play. They're multi-man vehicles...

SgtExo · 2012-07-10, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv

This is true. However, why does that necessitate Rambo gameplay? PS is intended to encourage teamplay. Join an outfit, find a gunny.

Also, they're talking about VOIP, so you'd probably be able to more efficiently communicate with the other person in the vehicle, even if they are a random.

-edit

Not saying you're wrong. It's just a discussion. There are always exceptions, and some people may have no trouble with it. It's more from the standpoint of encouraging group play. They're multi-man vehicles...

For me being able to drive and shoot does not automatically = Rambo. The teamwork i imagine with PS2 is not having 1 person drive and 1 person shoot, its about having 50 ppl driving and shooting at another 50 ppl while there are another 50 ppl in the skies and infantry all around trying to survive.

And i agree that a multi person vehicle will be better because you will have that second turret protecting you from planes and infantry trying C4 you rear (which i always love to do, and that second machine gunner can often make the difference for the tanks survival).

So having teamwork in PS2 should not mean that you have to get a PUG to use vehicles. Because most ppl i know don't own gaming rigs, I have always appreciated games that let you play alone and with teams without punishing you for your decision, and PS2 seems like that game. There will be vehicles that will require multiple ppl to use; Liberator, Galaxy, Sunderers. Some will let you play alone, but be more effective; ES MBT, Lightning. And there will be single player vehicles; Flash, ES planes.

I am also sure that in future patches, there will be more vehicles of every type added. I appreciate what the devs are trying to do here, and with the way the game is distributed, it will be really easy and certain that you will get constant updates to keep the game fresh.

As an idea, they might want to put in a super heavy tank that needs allot of ppl to use because of its size and power.

NumbaOneStunna · 2012-07-10, 02:32 PM

If I am not mistaken in Planetside 2 the driver can give control of the main gun to the gunner.

If I am wrong, i guess I wont be tanking.

CorvicM · 2012-07-10, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by NumbaOneStunna

If I am not mistaken in Planetside 2 the driver can give control of the main gun to the gunner.

If I am wrong, i guess I wont be tanking.

only by certing and thats not 100% guaranteed either

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-10, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by NumbaOneStunna

If I am not mistaken in Planetside 2 the driver can give control of the main gun to the gunner.

Of that was the case, that would be ok, I think. Being able to solo is one way to compensate for asshats (unfortunately always present online), but if it's optional, that might make it ok.

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

I have taken down Prowlers, Vanguards, Magriders, even BFRs, 1v1 with a Lightning. I plan to use the Lightning in PS2.

That being said, the main gun / secondary gun and driver / gunner dynamics definitely need some revision. I like how they are now as one configuration option, but I also want to have configurations where I can have the gunner handle both weapons, or the main gun for the gunner and a less-powerful secondary for the driver.

Maybe more seating configurations too. Magrider 1 or 2 seats (linked forward fire), Vanguard 2 or 3 seats, Prowler 2 3 or 4 seats. That way weapons can be split to gunners, or (for the Magrider) the gunner can be replaced for more powerful forward-firing weaponry.

Don't worry, players will voice their opinions and concerns and desires, and if enough people want changes, they'll make changes. That is part of the point of the NDA on the volatile closed beta period, so people don't spread info about systems that may be getting replaced.

That's not a bad idea, actually, and is a nice compromise... If the driver handles everything, then he has limited forward firing arc. That would make sense. Of course, some would prefer the one man full function thing... I just mean, from the standpoint of reasoning out making a multi-crew vehicle one man... this makes sense.

Neurotoxin · 2012-07-10, 02:37 PM

I have taken down Prowlers, Vanguards, Magriders, even BFRs, 1v1 with a Lightning. I plan to use the Lightning in PS2.

That being said, the main gun / secondary gun and driver / gunner dynamics definitely need some revision. I like how they are now as one configuration option, but I also want to have configurations where I can have the gunner handle both weapons, or the main gun for the gunner and a less-powerful secondary for the driver.

Maybe more seating configurations too. Magrider 1 or 2 seats (linked forward fire), Vanguard 2 or 3 seats, Prowler 2 3 or 4 seats. That way weapons can be split to gunners, or (for the Magrider) the gunner can be replaced for more powerful forward-firing weaponry.

Don't worry, players will voice their opinions and concerns and desires, and if enough people want changes, they'll make changes. That is part of the point of the NDA on the volatile closed beta period, so people don't spread info about systems that may be getting replaced.

Xaine · 2012-07-10, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

I have taken down Prowlers, Vanguards, Magriders, even BFRs, 1v1 with a Lightning. I plan to use the Lightning in PS2.

Then no offence, but they were some awful tank operators.

Turdicus · 2012-07-10, 02:43 PM

It's a critical design decision, I for one am happy that they made it this way. I find games that use both styles of tanks to be fun, but having the driver gun is certainly more fun for me. The community will get their hands on in beta and we will see what its like, I anticipate that after the initial "OMG this is awful" rants then people will take time to use it and get good with it and then people might be happier.

Maybe

Rivenshield · 2012-07-10, 02:43 PM

I feel the same... but a week's worth of driving around yelling WE NEED A GUNNER in PS1 has made me much more sympathetic to the driver-as-gunner concept.

Three refinements I'd like to see:

1) Allow the driver to hand off either or both gunner positions to someone else. If all I want to do is drive, navigate, and keep an eye on the battle, I should have that option. (At least allow the Prowler this option. That's consistent with the TR as the professional military guys). That would promote tight-knit teamwork while still allowing the casual half-an-hour-before-I-go-to-bed gamer to have fun blowing things up.

2) Bring back vehicle certs. Allowing everybody to drive everything out of the box, even with a long cooldown timer, just makes me wrinkle my nose. This is a first person SHOOTER -- not a first person drive-in-circles-and-blast-things-er. Make people commit to something instead of handing it to them.

3) For the love of God, bring back the timer bar for entering, exiting, and changing positions in a vehicle. You cannot seriously allow people to insta-bail and start hosing down your position with gunfire. That robs me of my kill and lets my enemy use his vehicle as a launch platform with mondo ablative armor -- a way to close and kill me while remaining ten times tougher.

Also, if we aren't going to get entry/exit animations, I'll settle for a fade-out like we had on the vehicle pad in PS1, with maybe a slight particle effect thrown in. That's immersive enough to suit me.