Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return

Rolfski · 2013-08-17, 08:27 PM

I kinda admin the biggest Dutch Planetside 2 community and people PM me/feedback all the time, mostly about the following issues:

"I die all the time! How do I progress fastest?"
"This game runs like shit! How can I improve performance?"
"Pro7 sucks, they never answer my questions!"
"What's a good outfit to join?"

In this topic I want to address the first and probably most unpopular issue in a hardcore forum like this: Giving sucky, new players a satisfying experience.

In my opinion, it's ok for players to suck at the beginning as long as you provide them the tools to progress fast. The more content this game generates over time (new continents, new game mechanics), the better tools you need to provide for new players to overcome this growing, massive wall of complexity.
Therefore, the highly unpopular kill-cam needs to return imo. You just can't expect from new players to learn and get motivated by a very depressing dead screen that gives lazy, camping farmers an insane advantage and doesn't teach new players anything. The amounts of ways and angles you can die in this game is getting more insane every month. Players desperately need accelerated learning tools to keep up.

This becomes even worse because farming is still by far the most game ruining mechanic in the game. When I play, I run with generally well-respected outfits (BRTD, GOTR, 666th Devildogs) but even these, well-lead outfits, cannot escape the corruption that comes with this very rotten mechanic.

In the end, I can even live with SOE's stubborn refusal to admit that KDR is a useless, farm-promoting stat that belongs to a team death match game, not an objective based game.
I cannot live however with mechanics that unnecessarily widen the gap for new players because SOE is afraid of unpopular changes under hardcore players.

NewSith · 2013-08-17, 08:50 PM

Snipers (and upcoming fulltime cloakers) suffer from kill-cams.
AMS drivers suffer from kill-cams.
A group of defenders holding an enclosed area suffers from kill-cams.

That's enough for me to say "No" to kill-cam of any kind.

Mastachief · 2013-08-17, 08:57 PM

FFS no.

There is no hard learning curve to this game, anyone thinking different belong in hello kitty world of adventure or something similarly apt for their iq.

We the community lobbied hard for the removal of the killcam and it was absolutely the right thing to do.

This is not the game you are looking for.

Also who respects the outfits quoted? only those players that don't know any better because they are not prepared to put the effort in this is also the reason they suck in the first place.

We have enough COD inspired crap already lets not go further down that road.

Taramafor · 2013-08-17, 09:02 PM

*Gets sniped* THERE HE IS! I SEE HIM ON KILL CAM!

*Gets mined by cloaked infiltrator* HE'S HIDING IN THE CORNER! I SEE HIM ON KILL CAM!

*Gets shot in the back* BEHIND ME! KILL CAM!

You get the idea. It throws surprise attacks right out the window. While being unseen is a minor element to this game it is fun when done and part of war is finding out where the enemy is.

And sniping? Don't stand still. Zig zag. Use cover. How about these things and more being provided in the VR and not just when you make a new character? Seems like a much better idea.

Mastachief: Actually, Devil Dogs are pretty good. Only outfit that matches TRG from what I seen.

Also, am I the only one that thinks the answer to giving classes something to do is to add mines or C4? Come on, medics with C4 and infiltrators with mines?

Rolfski · 2013-08-17, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

Snipers (and upcoming fulltime cloakers) suffer from kill-cams.
AMS drivers suffer from kill-cams.
A group of defenders holding an enclosed area suffers from kill-cams.

That's enough for me to say "No" to kill-cam of any kind.

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics.

Originally Posted by Taramafor

You get the idea. It throws surprise attacks right out the window.

Surprise should work as a surprise: You can only use it once.

Mastachief · 2013-08-17, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

, like real battle mechanics.

Real life kill cams... i gots to get me one of those yo!

maradine · 2013-08-17, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

Real life kill cams... i gots to get me one of those yo!

Game, set, match.

NewSith · 2013-08-17, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics.

That really only relates to snipers and that's it.

AMSes still suffer, because AMS drivers are a rarity in a proper fight, and moving an AMS during that kind of fight is a blatant suicide. Moreover every second of an undeployed AMS is another second of people spawning further away.
Also while say a group of 6 defends against a group of 10, 1 suicide checker is enough to reveal their positions and weakpoints, viewed from the perspective of the very defenders, that ruins things.

Killcams only increase the pace of a game, forcing everyone to always be on the run. Now think carefully if that HELPS newbies or actually makes it harder for them...

Taramafor · 2013-08-17, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics.

There's a difference between being mobile and having a good chance of avoiding detection and being known exactly where you are right off the bat. Also if cover hides you good enough so you can't be seen from far away, why should it be punished? Seems like the sensible thing to do to me. Sniper with brains beats mindless grunt that doesn't know what hit him. Killcam will not change that.

Here's how people learn in this game (and I can atest to this as I've been through training courses in my outfit). COMMUNICATE! Can you say it with me? Good. If you're good at something share your experience with your fellow team members and help them get better. Game mechanics can only do so much and it's up to us players to help each other where we can.

For example, playing a max? Ask for an engineer. Hurt? Medic. Hit a friendly? Apologize. Find good cover or vantage point? Well guess what, instead of using the quick commutation key use that keyboard, stop being worried about killing for a moment and push T and let a buddy know about it. Commutation is key and I'm always telling my team members when I see an enemy sun coming in or a group of infantry or tanks.

In the end it's about knowing what you're good at and sharing the experience. And this game is meant to be played with others not on your own. Sucks if you're anti social but hey, that's me right there and I still manage. Keep your head on straight, don't give a damn about your K/D ratio and learn as you play no matter how bad you are. Mine was twice as bad as it is now but with time, practice, common sense and communication it's gotten a lot better.

Rolfski · 2013-08-17, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

That really only relates to snipers and that's it.

AMSes still suffer, because AMS drivers are a rarity in a proper fight, and moving an AMS during that kind of fight is a blatant suicide. Moreover every second of an undeployed AMS is another second of people spawning further away.
Also while say a group of 6 defends against a group of 10, 1 suicide checker is enough to reveal their positions and weakpoints, viewed from the perspective of the very defenders, that ruins things.

Killcams only increase the pace of a game, forcing everyone to always be on the run. Now think carefully if that HELPS newbies or actually makes it harder for them...

Hardly an argument, if you kill people from your AMS location atm, it's already a dead give-away (red dots on mini-map and all).

Originally Posted by Mastachief

Here's how people learn in this game (and I can atest to this as I've been through training courses in my outfit). COMMUNICATE!

Bullocks, the fact of life probably is that most players don't run in an outfit, don't communicate or use a headset and just get farmed and need to go an insanely, ever-growing, learning curve to get an idea what kills them.

NewSith · 2013-08-17, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Hardly an argument, if you kill people from your AMS location atm, it's already a dead give-away (red dots on mini-map and all.

Here I just cannot agree. It's not just AMS position it gives away (for the most part Sundies are usually marked on the minimap, especially now that they nerfed stealth), but it also allows to obtain some recon, otherwise unavailable by simple means (How AMS is positioned, how dense the spawning is, is it armed with minegiard or not, etc)

But this is where I would like to finish my part of discussion.

Taramafor · 2013-08-17, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Bullocks, the fact of life probably is that most players don't run in an outfit, don't communicate or use a headset and just get farmed and need to go an insanely, ever-growing, learning curve to get an idea what kills them.

Don't have to be in an outfit. I've worked with EXE once or twice and have successfully typed that a gal would be an idea and performed it myself with great success (gal drop). I have no headset. I've led my outfit without one at times. I typed hold A and they stayed inside and watched the doors (as instructed by me) even though I wasn't the leader. I then said box them in the spawn room, which they did. I always type locations of any enemy that needs to be known before going off the map (just shout sun east or armor south or whatever). We took over the base. People listen to others and act accordingly or they don't listen and act and lose.

No outfit. No squad leader. Just communication, common sense, a willingness to listen and working together. If you can't work as a team player then learn on your own. Rule of life mate.

I'll also add that me and another TRG member who will remain nameless were half trolling (well, I was half trolling. He was full trolling) but when it comes down to business, everyone listens to each other. Even in outfits we jab at each other but we live to our motto. TRG: Getting shit done. In or out of outfits.

Outfit isn't needed but leadership and working together certainty is. If you don't grasp that in a game with so many team players then I throw up my arms and give up.

Wahooo · 2013-08-18, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

They don't suffer from it, really, because you should be mobile anyways. Aside from the horrible farming dynamics it generates, camping multiple times from a single spot should be punished not rewarded, like real battle mechanics..

I disagree fully and completely. "Camping" is a whiny thing that people that don't like to die bitch about. To me it is on the same level as the whole if it kills me it is cheap or HAX or exploit and if I get kills it is skill.

You are saying that new players need more feedback and that lazy campers should be punished?!?!? How about the people that need a kill cam are the lazy ones? Sniping from a good spot vs. mobility are BOTH needed and one is not the the "CORRECT" way to play. If you are camping and racking up kills the punishment is a good aware player or better sniper figuring it out and killing you. About the most fun thing for me to do is counter sniping a good sniper who is camping a spot and wrecking HA's and Engies.

This whole hatred of "campers" is a pretty new phenomenon in shooters, and honestly I have a LOT less issue with that play style in instanced games like COD than I do with the sprint exploit akimbo shotgun users.

I agree new players could use a better experience but kill cam? HELL NO, NEVER.

Ruffdog · 2013-08-18, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

kill-cam needs to return imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFGfWrJR5Ck

No it bloody doesn't

ketarakh · 2013-08-18, 03:45 AM

Though I find killcams a little bit too much for this game, I think than newbies must have some sort of info on how and from where they were shot. For example when you die and while you are falling on the ground your camera turns for 2-3 seconds in the direction where the guy that killed you was standing. Some sort of advanced "hit direction detector" UI thingy.