The Issue of the 10%-20% Power Differentiation

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Well, I don't know how to read, so I'd appreciate a little more compassion. OK, I'm kidding, but I did read that sentence, even in the normal font size, I just disagree with your conclusion, and I explained why I disagree. It wasn't because I ignored what you said.

Options are a form power but it is not direct; while a br20 can do more than a br1, they are on equal footing in the things they have both certed. Having medical makes a player more versatile, but in a firefight it isn't going to help you (a medkit would, which is why good players still carried them and they were available to all players regardless of BR). Having access to mosquito doesn't matter when you are indoors. Having access to MAX doesn't matter when you aren't in one. Same for infiltration and all the other support certs. In most cases in PS1 having more options didn't give you power - it just limited what you could do in your play session.

However if you got bonuses in addition to access means the BR 1 and the BR 20 would not be on equal footing.

Thus, the two concepts are significantly different.

Another way to put it is that in PS1 if you had the same equipment on two different players then skill and circumstance will determine the victor. If you have bonuses applied over time to longtime vets, then that statement is no longer true.

Bonuses over time is a fundamental change from PS1 - it isn't a continuance of a trend.

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by NewSith

That's the trick. Any modern FPS work like that. And PS is aimed to be modern.

Try to get it right - I'm all for br25, and cert system, and stuff... But... That's not going to happen, and that's already written in stone. Sadly class system, as in "Pre-defined Equipment", does NOT work with our cert system.

I'm sick of this "modern FPS" nonsense. What exactly makes these FPSes out there modern? They've all been the same since the beginning. If you ask me PS was a "modern FPS" in that it tried to change the set way things worked.

PS2 has another chance to be "modern". Using the old cert system or not having power differentiation isn't "old style". I don't know why people think it is.

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

I'm sick of this "modern FPS" nonsense. What exactly makes these FPSes out there modern? They've all been the same since the beginning. If you ask me PS was a "modern FPS" in that it tried to change the set way things worked.

PS2 has another chance to be "modern". Using the old cert system or not having power differentiation isn't "old style". I don't know why people think it is.

You can't tell it to me I'm not the one making the game...

[Malorn]

Power progression over time is an RPG element, not an FPS element. I think it crept in there from the EVE online inspiration, certainly not from modern shooters. BFBC2 has implant-style bonses that can be unlocked but those are tradeoffs between different bonuses and you don't permanently have them affixed to your character and can change them based on the style you are going for.

[Soothsayer]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Options are a form power but it is not direct; while a br20 can do more than a br1, they are on equal footing in the things they have both certed. Having medical makes a player more versatile, but in a firefight it isn't going to help you (a medkit would, which is why good players still carried them and they were available to all players regardless of BR). Having access to mosquito doesn't matter when you are indoors. Having access to MAX doesn't matter when you aren't in one. Same for infiltration and all the other support certs. In most cases in PS1 having more options didn't give you power - it just limited what you could do in your play session.

However if you got bonuses in addition to access means the BR 1 and the BR 20 would not be on equal footing.

Thus, the two concepts are significantly different.

Another way to put it is that in PS1 if you had the same equipment on two different players then skill and circumstance will determine the victor. If you have bonuses applied over time to longtime vets, then that statement is no longer true.

Bonuses over time is a fundamental change from PS1 - it isn't a continuance of a trend.

The BR20 can go on to fight another after a couple of seconds in cover. BR1 has to retreat or rely on someone else to get him back up to health if he wins.

The BR20 has access to rexo and secondary weapons that will put the BR1 at a disadvantage as he approaches.

[EDIT: The BR1 won't always be a BR1, I don't see the point in setting up the foundation of the system to cater to them alone.]

[Malorn]

And no one is arguing that options do not convey some form of advantage. Nobody is disagreeing with that, but options and power progression over time are not the same thing.

In PS1 if you had the same equipment on two different players then skill and circumstance will determine the victor. If you have bonuses applied over time to vets, then that statement is no longer true.

[Soothsayer]

There's the chance to do something really cool here with the skill progression system.

While there may be some perceived barrier to entry for a new player, the benefits to longterm players will be significant. That is, the benefit of retaining new players as longterm players when the depth of the system is realized.

People keep saying that the EVE skill system scares people off... If it does, its just because they haven't tried it. So CCP started all sorts of programs to get people to try it and realize that its not as big of a deal as the person originally thought.

In PS2, the dev team should not sacrifice core game system depth for the very minimal benefit of catering to non-longterm players. When a new player sees the depth of the system available they have a goal that is farther out than BR25. The goal is their soldier, customized the way they want it with personal investment in the process.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Malorn

In PS1 if you had the same equipment on two different players then skill and circumstance will determine the victor. If you have bonuses applied over time to vets, then that statement is no longer true.

Upgraded equipment wouldn't be the same equipment really. It would just be more specialized equipment. Skill could just be having the right tools for the job. Since you're focusing on two users using the same weapons then it depends how both players choose to specialize. Specializing special assault assault for range over accuracy in my mind would make the weapons good for different things.

I imagine you're thinking of a medium assault weapon though and assuming a person is going into battle with no specialization because they just started the game. I agree it sucks to be them. However unless SOE just gives everyone the full skill tree and just lets everyone start at BR20 and cert how they want we're going to see an obvious delay for beginners. However once they do specialize they'll be specialized and that's the point. Each player will be unique ideally in their playstyle. Or at the very worst all players will choose the same skill trees and become identical. Like I said before though I don't see the point of putting a beginner on the same playing field as a veteran. Being good at one thing and specialized in it shouldn't take that long. For veterans they'll probably just have more choices open to them which is really how players will see their progression and keep them playing.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

And no one is arguing that options do not convey some form of advantage. Nobody is disagreeing with that, but options and power progression over time are not the same thing.

In PS1 if you had the same equipment on two different players then skill and circumstance will determine the victor. If you have bonuses applied over time to vets, then that statement is no longer true.

First, it's not just "options" it's simply having more. Quick scenario to illustrate my point: BR20 v BR3 in a fire fight, the BR20 takes damage then ducks behind cover to repair and heal, then pops back out to finish of the BR3. The BR 20 didn't have more options, he had more power because of the time he put in, call it whatever you want, but the BR3 that just died will likely describe it as power progression. Sure, you have the "option" to unlock whichever power, err I mean cert you want, but it's the same idea.

By pointing that out, all I'm saying is that in PS1 we already have a power progression system, and I deduce and I hope that PS2 is merely a slight nudge along that spectrum and not a huge leap, because such a leap would trigger all sorts of problems that you have so eloquently pointed out.

As to your subtle yellow statement (along with being illiterate, I'm also color blind) I don't believe it is an "all or nothing" situation. I think even with minor skill bonuses, the victor will still be decided by skill and circumstance, however there will be occasions where having a slight edge in something like reload time will make that razor's edge difference. Frankly, in the chaos of epic Planetside battles, even the best veterans might not even notice it happen.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because this dead horse has been kicked around for a long time. Hell, we don't even know what any of the skills actually are. Devs need to release some info so I have something new to complain about.

[Malorn]

The example people keep giving of supreme power advantage is ducking behind a pillar and healing? Really? That's the argument? Two common certs? Any other certs? How does unimax help? How does driving a vanguard help when you're indoors? Or air support? Two support certs are all you got to go on and it's sketchy at best considering one could be substituted with medkits and the other was so common every infantryman carried one.

Clearly the PS1 system was supporting power gain over time because Engineering and Medical existed.

[legendary]

Please keep the game mechanics level, and let are human abilities shape the outcome. What we need from the design team is the chess board and the pieces to play.

You have an opportunity to make something lasting, don’t muck it up.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The example people keep giving of supreme power advantage is ducking behind a pillar and healing? Really? That's the argument? Two common certs? Any other certs? How does unimax help? How does driving a vanguard help when you're indoors? Or air support? Two support certs are all you got to go on and it's sketchy at best considering one could be substituted with medkits and the other was so common every infantryman carried one.

Clearly the PS1 system was supporting power gain over time because Engineering and Medical existed.

Because the entire game is situational, and the engie + med firefight is the most common, the easiest, and most black and white situation to illustrate the point. I'm not going to go down the list on which situation each cert is good for, because you already know anyways.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The example people keep giving of supreme power advantage is ducking behind a pillar and healing? Really? That's the argument? Two common certs? Any other certs? How does unimax help? How does driving a vanguard help when you're indoors? Or air support? Two support certs are all you got to go on and it's sketchy at best considering one could be substituted with medkits and the other was so common every infantryman carried one.

Clearly the PS1 system was supporting power gain over time because Engineering and Medical existed.

I think you prove the point further for power gain. It doesn't effect anything in battle until it's used. Meaning upgrading a vanguard would only help you when you're in a vanguard. Meaning you've chosen to specialize in a vanguard. For people that specialize in grunt combat they'd be good indoors and better than a vanguard player.

Having unimax for instance only helps when you're indoors. The only time it would show that it was really more upgraded would be in a fight against 2 maxes of the same type, but then again every max in the game is different so it would be really hard to tell if the upgrades helped.

Most players aren't going to notice the upgrades at all when a veteran has them anyway. Most of them are going to be rock-paper-scissor fights. "Oh the AA max killed me in one less round" kind of stuff.

Is anyone really arguing against progression through these meaningless upgrades? I've read the past few pages and it seems like no one cares. Really wish Higby would have said 50% advantages and such for specialized characters so people could really argue about hypothetical damage scenarios in a trade-off system. Every vehicle and weapon would have it's own play style then without the predictability of PS fights.