A possible explanation of "20% Better At Highest Level"

[LZachariah]

So, I've been thinking about the extremely deep leveling system, and I'm very excited. Yes, someone can become a generalist, and that's great, but i have ALWAYS been the type to specialize. So, I'm thinking about what various skills there might be for specific skill trees. Higsby said that (and I'm paraphrasing) "at the maximum, a high-level player will have a 20% advantage over a starting-level (or potentially, an untrained) player."

So what does this mean? Well, I assume that there will be ABUNDANT skills and unlocks that offer more abilities and perks (rather than adjusting a number or calculation). For instance- let us take the example of Combat Engineering, specifically Combat Demolitions, which is my favorite aspect of any wargame. So, let's take the remote-detonated explosives, Boomers.

Various unlocks that offer benefits rather than adjusting some calculation could be 1. You can have twice as many explosives planted at one time, 2. You carry twice as many explosives, 3. Your explosives now deal additional burn damage, 4. Your explosives are now invulnerable to other explosions and gunfire (except a direct shot from a bolt-driver, etc).

Those are more like "abilities." Now, when we are talking about this 20% rule, I can imagine various skills adjusting certain calculations. For instance: 1. Explosives have a 20% bigger blast radius, 2. Explosives deal 20% more damage, 3. Explosives reduce armor by 20% before dealing their damage.

Those sound reasonable to me. Now, the question is: would we feel that difference? Would 20% extra damage really feel significant? This is a problem that Global Agenda had. In Global Agenda, you needed to buy MULTIPLE skills at max level that ALL boosted, say, reduced cooldown time, before you really felt the benefits. Yes, fine, if you max out one of those skills, your cooldown is reduced from 20 seconds to 17 seconds, but no one can really significantly feel that unless you're actually just counting the seconds to feel like you got your money's worth.

I have faith that SOE is going to do this game right, I'm simply throwing this out there to hash out the ideas somewhat. If you can increase like, 8 dimensions of a certain weapon or tool by 20%, I bet that would start to feel EXTREMELY significant, but I wonder if 20% is too little, and people would just favor the "abilities" instead. IE- why make your explosives do 20% more damage when you could just buy the ability that lets you lay down twice as many? Etc. Obviously, my examples are just conjectural, but I think that you guys understand what I'm saying.

Thoughts?

~Zachariah

[Malorn]

they stated that some certs will give your weapons more damage or vehicle better handling. That's the bit that gives me concern because that directly translates into advantage.

I'd really like Matt to elaborate more on what he meant by that and give some examples of what he considers to be power-gaining and what isn't. Part of the issue is perception and we may not be aligned there.

Things like carrying more explosives or having a faster medic healing rate are reasonable things taken in small amounts. Things like direct damage increases and speed upgrades are far more concerning to me because they impact direct TTK and survivability.

[SavageB]

Depending on how the system works , and in the hands of the right player 20 percent could be substantial, but also quoted from the devs, skill is the primary factor in this game, and it will be in all aspects of it of course. So obviously the higher ranked player will be at an advantage, it is present in every game, but the lowbie still has a chance Should be interesting in the upcoming months to see how the weapon mods will play out, and I wonder in game if there will be any cookie cutter builds for assault class for ex...hmm..

[kaffis]

I think the key to staying grounded and not freaking out about that 20% number is to remember it's the maximum value of increased effectiveness achieved by stacking as many of the dazzling array of cumulative small bonuses available as possible, from multiple sources.

There isn't going to be a "deal 120% weapon damage" ability. There's going to be a "deal 3% more weapon damage" ability, which you can combine with a "fire rate increased by 3%" ability, added to the "reload 5% faster" and "5% increase in clip size" abilities, and weapon modifications granting you .1 second faster iron sights switching, backed up by the "run 2% faster" and "3% higher max armor."

Taken together, and representing a singular focus taken to the maximum benefit possible both in your own time-based certifications and as a member of an outfit exclusively specializing in the same area of expertise.

All compared to somebody who literally logged in for the very first time.

Switch to a different role? Now you're even with that 1 minute newbie. And *behind* the 1 hour newbie who has focused on the role you just switched to.

I'm not worried. There are lots of roles, and all will need doing at some point. Not even the most seasoned veteran is going to be in his element all the time, and that seasoned veteran is going to be the greenest rookie when he's not because he (and his outfit!) chose not to diversify at all.

[Surge72]

Well said Kaffis

[Vancha]

Not to mention, if you can really spend a year or more training into a specific vehicle or weapon, then I imagine there'll be plenty of non-statistical skills to train into.

[exLupo]

With the direct reference to the EVE style skill system, I wouldn't be surprised if players, like in eve, didn't even always max out skills. There, going for the full Lv5 isn't always done unless you're really into specializing -or- it's a pre-req for another skill. Simply because the time : power isn't worth it. Think spending two weeks for 1% more damage with one weapon. Most people just don't bother. I imagine the 20% is, as kaffis said, is an aggregate. On top of that, I believe it's also an all-in that the vast majority of players won't put the time in for.

[Baneblade]

The question is: Will the 20% make any real difference?

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

The question is: Will the 20% make any real difference?

If it's an aggregate, no? Not as much as +20% raw damage would anyway. Obviously, it -will- make some difference but not one so large that individual skil wouldn't counter. Even team numbers would easily dilute that advantage. 500 people of varying BR/Cert-levels would ultimately be a wash in the long run.

Insert "GameX isn't about 1v1" here.

[Senyu]

like posted above the way i understand it, 20% from taking account of everything than can benefit a player. And 20% really isn't that much, once you get to 40% i think its to much

[Coreldan]

I for one hope the 20% difference is exactly stuff like this. Rather 20% more mines rather that mines doing 20% more damage A bit bad example, but I really am against direct combat upgrades regarding damage output/intake.

20% of more damage given/faster damage and less damage taken is huge and kills a game and new players and reviewers will hate em. APB showed that That's why I hope they give the advantage horizontally, not vertically, much like in original PS.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Coreldan

That's why I hope they give the advantage horizontally, not vertically, much like in original PS.

Hope they don't let it go that far. HA Rexo AH AM AR AV supersoldiers along with Agile hotdrop versions of the same did the game no favors in it's place (and lack thereof) in the industry. With the loadout/class talk, it sounds like they're limiting the at-one-time horizontal power this time around.

Player role interdependence was one of the best part about late beta/early launch. HA, medic, infil, sniper, max, HA and all specialists were each important. Nowadays everyone can do everything, damn near all at once and we get Rambo central. Looking forward to a call back to when teamwork mattered more than just pointing all your McGuns the same direction.

[Coreldan]

Originally Posted by exLupo

Hope they don't let it go that far. HA Rexo AH AM AR AV supersoldiers along with Agile hotdrop versions of the same did the game no favors in it's place (and lack thereof) in the industry. With the loadout/class talk, it sounds like they're limiting the at-one-time horizontal power this time around.

Player role interdependence was one of the best part about late beta/early launch. HA, medic, infil, sniper, max, HA and all specialists were each important. Nowadays everyone can do everything, damn near all at once and we get Rambo central. Looking forward to a call back to when teamwork mattered more than just pointing all your McGuns the same direction.

I do agree with this one, it was a bit too far but I don't think the problem was in options per se, it was just what all you could combine and use at the same time. This should be fixed with PS2 though, as it was mentioned that you cant get heavy weapons without heavy armor and with heavy armor you probably can't jump in a Mossie or do some of the other crazy stuff mentioned.

But even that was still better than the vet just simply pushing 20% more damage than the new player

For those not familiar with RTW's APB, a veteran could basically take 15% less damage, regenerate considerably faster, deal 10% more damage with weapons and also have 10% RoF increase. All this with no downsides whatsoever, all pure netgains you got for just playing the game long enough. Not a good model.