Weapons, Attachments, Function - Page 3

Traak · 2011-07-18, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Volw

Flash bangs could potentially be OP, however. Flashbang, knife, knife, knife, everyone's dead ;-)

Exactly, it's just as idiotic as a darklight flashlight that lets one person illuminate cloakers for everyone else. That was my point.

Treerat · 2011-07-18, 10:50 PM

For the smoke idea since it would kill some computers (like mine...). Maybe instead creating an area of actual smoke it could release a "refractive particle cloud" that isn't isn't visible itself but someone inside it would "disappear" as if using a cloaker suit (ie near-complete if standing still, walking limited, etc). That way the client doesn't have to render the "cloud" (with the possible exception of soldiers using Darklight), there is still the option for a semi-stealthy approach, and it's just more fitting for high-tech weaponry. Plain smoke can be seen through with thermal imaging or radar, blows around with the wind, and can be problematic in that it not only blocks the enemies view but yours as well. A cloud of microscopic mirrors and lenses with attendant nanobots that "bent" light around soldiers hiding in it wouldn't be affect buy such mundane concerns however.

For the grenade launcher, maybe the issue isn't the concept itself (hardly ever see that option used in BF2 anymore) but how grenades from those launchers act. As I remember PS, a grenade from a launcher fired point-blank at a target would still have it's full effect making them useful at most ranges including point-blank. Hence maybe people's problem isn't the concept per say, but that the grenade launcher would be a "almost-one-shot kill" weapon at close ranges due to the combination of a grenade/ rocket to a target already mauled by the rifle while closing. Taking an idea from actual projected grenades - add a minimum arming distance. Basically if the grenade hits an object that would normally cause it to detonate but hasn't traveled 10 meters (wild guess) it simply does no (or extremely minor) damage because it hasn't armed and thus doesn't explode. The under-barrel launcher could thus be included without it becoming the "default" attachment for everyone, grenade launchers in general get a viable weakness (okay at a distance but harmless up close), and there would be a reason to carry a combat rifle plus some sort of CQB weapon (shotgun or under-barrel shotgun for example).

Now for what I would like to see as optional "extras" for weapon attachments.

Red-dot sight: reduced initial CoF. 1 slot (barrel, or bottom)
Gyroscopic stabilizer: reduced CoF bloom from firing and movement but drains power/stamina when in use. 2 slots (bottom and barrel).
Bayonet: Old but goodie - gives an immediate melee option. 1 slot (barrel)
Scope: gives better and adjustable zoom. 1 slot (top)
Reflex sight: reduced initial CoF. 1 slot (top)
Grenade Launcher: Single shot weapon using standard grenades. 1 slot (bottom)
Shotgun: 4-shot weapon comparable to mag-scatter. 1 slot (bottom)
Laser Designator: creates waypoint (without the "here I am!" beam) while used - primarily to provide targeting for artillery and guided bombs. Uses 1 slot (bottom or barrel)
Video Camera: allows squad/ platoon leader in the unit to "see" through the soldiers "eyes" with variable magnification. 1 slot (top or bottom)
Magazine Extension: increased magazine capacity by 50% but increased reloading time and increased initial CoF. 1 slot (bottom)
Quick-reload system: large reduction to reload time for second clip, but doubles reload time for the second reload (ie while reloading both clip spots). 1 slot (bottom)
Bipod: Reduced initial CoF and reduced CoF bloom rate when crouched. 1 slot (barrel)

Rbstr · 2011-07-18, 11:41 PM

A few games do the distance arming thing on the 'nade, it's a great idea. They still tend to have it a bit short IMO. Though in BC2 if you hit the guy with the actual projectile he'll die, regardless of whether it explodes. Which makes some sense. This may be hardcore only, and it's damn hard to aim the 203 that exactly w/o cross-hairs so it doesn't happen often.

I stick by sights shouldn't do a damn thing to the weapon except how you aim it. It's a good way to help balance it, so you don't get a close quarters gun with tons of damage ending up highly accurate at range.
I also think magazine expansion mods are a bad idea. Unless it comes had in hand with an entire weapon variant that changes other things as well.
So instead of mods that fiddle with base accuracy, damage, clip size and other more "internal" factors. You have the choice between carbine, normal, marksman, whatever versions. Then you can add the various "external" factor mods that don't change how the gun's mechanisms really operate but can help you keep recoil under control, change the ADS, help with situational awareness, add a shotgun to the thing and whatever else. (Yeah, with recoil especially there's lots of overlap potential, this isn't meant to be a hard and fast thing)

Lots of you are still thinking in terms of PS1's COF, as well, PS2 should have something a bit more sophisticated. Though the trailer isn't particularly clear, we do know it has a more modern ironsights system.

CutterJohn · 2011-07-19, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Treerat

Laser Designator: creates waypoint (without the "here I am!" beam) while used - primarily to provide targeting for artillery and guided bombs. Uses 1 slot (bottom or barrel)

I always wanted the laze to only be visible as a small dot, but you could still see the beam with darklight. It would be pretty annoying if there were a cloaker up in the hills in some random place you could never hope to find lazing targets.

Per the rest.. In general, when adding weight to a weapon, you increase its stability, so recoil is easier to manage, but it becomes harder to run around with. To that end, I'd say adding stuff onto the gun like a GL, extra clips, etc, would result in reduced cof bloom and recoil(but also reduced recovery), and increased cof while running about. Keeping a weapon light would increase CoF bloom and recoil while shooting, but the weapon would be better at running around and shooting with.

Larger clips would definitely increase loading times. Bigger, bulkier. Harder to pull out of whatever pack it was in and slap into place. Especially if there's some belt feed action going on that you have to get into place.

It would be great to have an arming distance for grenades.

Couple other ideas.

Grenade sight - computes firing angles for you(click on spot, and it puts a reticle in the air where you should fire) and allows for the use of fused, flat arc rockets(like the BF2142). Replaces the other sights, and has a big zoom and tiny FOV, so it makes CQC sighting painful. Computation takes a moment or two, but will seriously aid in accuracy for long range grenade shots, and allow you to use rockets to hit people behind the crest of a hill.

Pulse accelerator - A barrel attachment which overcharges and stabilizes the shots, resulting in increased accuracy and shot damage, but needs time to recharge, so a reduced rof. DPS stays the same, but it becomes a better long ranged weapon, rather like the HSR or the semi auto snipers in the BF2 games.

Silencer - Its my opinion that shooting should put you on the minimap briefly. This would keep you off of it. Perhaps off of the killspam as well, except for the person you killed, to reduce free intel. Results in lower damage(normally for this you'd want subsonic ammo but it can just be a future tech silencer), and slightly destabilizes the bullet, increasing cof.

Combat shield - Underbarrel attachment. Adds a small force field which reduces damage coming from in front of you by 25%. Slightly obscures vision.

Sirisian · 2011-07-19, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Treerat

For the smoke idea since it would kill some computers (like mine...).

Stop that.

You didn't answer my question so I have to assume you're in the DX9 group. In any case one of Forge Light's key features is a volumetric fog system for clouds which allows planes to hide inside of them. The same algorithm can be used for smoke grenades to allow players to hide inside of them.

I actually don't know how they're doing it on DX9. In DX10/11 there are simple voxel shaders for achieving volumetric fog. It's the same algorithm used for real-time radiosity in the frostbite and Crytek 3 engines. I wouldn't worry. (Though the algorithm can run on the CPU very well actually.

)

Treerat · 2011-07-19, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Rbstr

A few games do the distance arming thing on the 'nade, it's a great idea. They still tend to have it a bit short IMO. Though in BC2 if you hit the guy with the actual projectile he'll die, regardless of whether it explodes. Which makes some sense. This may be hardcore only, and it's damn hard to aim the 203 that exactly w/o cross-hairs so it doesn't happen often.

I stick by sights shouldn't do a damn thing to the weapon except how you aim it. It's a good way to help balance it, so you don't get a close quarters gun with tons of damage ending up highly accurate at range.
I also think magazine expansion mods are a bad idea. Unless it comes had in hand with an entire weapon variant that changes other things as well.
So instead of mods that fiddle with base accuracy, damage, clip size and other more "internal" factors. You have the choice between carbine, normal, marksman, whatever versions. Then you can add the various "external" factor mods that don't change how the gun's mechanisms really operate but can help you keep recoil under control, change the ADS, help with situational awareness, add a shotgun to the thing and whatever else. (Yeah, with recoil especially there's lots of overlap potential, this isn't meant to be a hard and fast thing)

Lots of you are still thinking in terms of PS1's COF, as well, PS2 should have something a bit more sophisticated. Though the trailer isn't particularly clear, we do know it has a more modern ironsights system.

The CoF bit is that A) I haven't played PS in years and B) while it might not be the same as in PS, it makes a certain amount of sense. When rapidly firing any weapon the successive rounds are more likely to miss due to the weapon "jumping around" due to recoil, barrel climb, and the shooters own movement. You can see this with the automatic weapons in BF2 and its follow-ups; if you face a wall say 20 meters away, stand up, and fire until the weapon overheats or hits empty, the initial bullets will hit near the center but by the end they will be hitting everywhere within a set diameter circle. Really it just makes sense to me - most quick-acquisition sights (lasers, reflex sights, etc) are designed to help with the first few shots.

Not that I don't like idea of different "sub classes" of weapons but there would be some problems with implementing them. The big difference between an assault rifle and it's carbine version (for example) is the space it takes up, the amount it weighs, and how easily it "handles" in tight spaces. The first would have translated well into PS1 with it's free-form inventory but PS2 is dropping that. The second really has never been a factor - the only way I could see it affecting battles would be reduced stamina drain if that becomes a factor. The third part would probably be the most easily implemented (as a lowered rate of turn & elevation/ depression the the "full sized" version), but also runs into problems such as turn sensitivity (effectively bypassing it).

And I do agree that NOTHING should increase a weapons base damage or rate of fire. Maybe reduce it in the same manner a sound suppressor trades velocity (and thus power) for a reduced muzzle report, but never up the weapons damage. Those two are just asking for major issues because they directly effect how a weapon relates to others in it's time to kill ratio. The reason I don't have a problem with magazine extensions is my experience with that option BF2142 where that option was available to the engineer for their SMG "sidearm". Since the weapon already took multiple rounds to kill, the extra 10 rounds wasn't a big difference. It did come in handy though when the other guy ran out of ammunition and charged with his knife out since it translated into 1 or 2 more bursts (just enough to either finish him off or make him duck behind cover). As long as something like that was restricted to weapons that need multiple shots (thinking primarily pistols, SMGs, and empire-specific rifles but excluding heavy assault and anti-vehiclular weapons) it shouldn't cause significant problems. Of course if it did cause a real problem, I would say yank it or don't implement it.

Oh, and I would hope they don't make non-exploding grenades from launchers actual one-shot kills. Most grenade launchers fire around 400 feet per second or less. I've been hit by paintballs fired that that velocity and beyond bruising (and lots of pain-induced cursing), no permanent damage has been done to me yet.

Senyu · 2011-07-19, 01:17 AM

From Vanu standpoint for the Pulsar I think would be realistic (in sense of actually being in the game and balanced)

Tracer Point:
Secondary Ammo that when fire does minimal damage. Target is however highlighted/traced/tracked for all Vanu soldiers with Heavy Armor and vehicles. Reduces basic ammo amount.(Basically anything with HUD in armor so not being able to see it with spawnsuit as an example)

Speed Module:
(Just thought of name, i do not imply modules in first game) Pulsar's projectiles and rate of fire is increased. Visual smaller energy projectiles and high pitch noise when fired

Ammo Module:
Increase ammo capacity on shots able to fire before reload.(Assuming ammo is still in inventory)

Hackers Link:
2 second charge. Able to fire a single shot into enemy vehicle delivering a virus. Vehicle shuts down and is immobile for 3 seconds. Vehicle is also unable to fire weapons for 5 seconds.(Similair to jammer but lasts shorter but is more potent for the single duration. This is not spammable and player must be an advance hacker. Only 1 to 3 shots allowed until reload for balance reasons)

This may be OP but I honestly couldnt think of another way to have a command link thing without being Increase X damage or Rate of Fire. Wanted something unique but practical so s'what I tried to come up with

Command Module:
Modified Pulsar for players high in command and/or leading a squad. The Command Pulsar's energy levels are higher causing its shots to penetrate deeper than other pulsars and is more effiecent using the energy ammo. If i can explain this right it means that when firing it can shoot more while using less ammo. I imagine this would work by instead of each shot reducing your clip size by 1, each shots would be by .7 So your clip size doesn't change, just the rate you deplete it meaning more shots fired per clip. Its energy so I figured makes sense your shooting energy from a battery or pool of energy and this makes it more effiecent.

Benifits are also synchronous linking of nearby squadmate/outfit members pulsars granting them the benifits of the ammo effieceny

This may be OP but I honestly couldnt think of another way to have a command link thing without being Increase X damage or Rate of Fire. Wanted something unique but practical so s'what I tried to come up with

This one may be OP but I thought neat idea anyways. Shield Burst. When the players shoots his pulsar, each shot releases a burst of energy over the player causing low fire projectiles, (small to medium weapons) to be negated when hitting the burst. Only effects weapons shot at player from the front.

So when your constantly firing and releasing these bursts which last for half a second per shot fired your protected from pistols and other medium weapons. Obviously heavy,snipers, or vehicle weapons should be uneffected. The animation I imagine is similair to a burst of steam from the weapon washing over the player like hes prototcted by an invisible bubble. Visually it disapears when it washes over the head leaving the back side open to attacks. But obv instead of steam its energy

Aractain · 2011-07-19, 02:48 AM

I definatly want there to be a stability vs accuracy trade off. Accuracy means first round while stability is how accurate something is in sustatined fire. As you might know people tend to hold the button down (and enjoy it) so being able to customise the weapon to your playstyle is awesome.

Stability is usualy done through vertical front grips and big stocks. Accuracy would be barrels, light stocks and triggers.

Vancha · 2011-07-19, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Traak

Exactly, it's just as idiotic as a darklight flashlight that lets one person illuminate cloakers for everyone else. That was my point.

Keep in mind cloakers would also be harder to find with a flashlight DL compared to the PS1 DL, especially with a narrow enough beam of light.

Typically you were dead as a cloaker if you got seen with DL anyway, unless you surged away. 1 on 1 you might survive if you had a gun or grenades, but then the issue you mentioned with the flashlight wouldn't apply.

Tool · 2011-07-19, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Vancha

Keep in mind cloakers would also be harder to find with a flashlight DL compared to the PS1 DL, especially with a narrow enough beam of light.

Typically you were dead as a cloaker if you got seen with DL anyway, unless you surged away. 1 on 1 you might survive if you had a gun or grenades, but then the issue you mentioned with the flashlight wouldn't apply.

I agree, as a DL flashlight would be limited in range and also easier for cloakers to tell when the player is using one and intention if say the color of the light is tell-tale.

A very limited area and range as opposed to the DL that was in PS. Which was really only limited in range while having a wide FOV.