The godawful spawncamping issue

[Fear The Amish]

Originally Posted by Figment

Of course you lost that base, under the current status quo due to base design not providing you with options.

What is incomprehensible is people thinking that's how it SHOULD be.


What's the point of designing a combat game and a fight over a control point, if you actively discourage fighting over the control point?

Might as well just make it instant flip then. But I guess that's kinda lost on the people with a pragmatic defeatist attitude towards a status quo design. :/ A siege is excellent, a camp is not.

here is my problem with this though... Spawn room camping can be alleviated by a few things that the PLAYERS need to do. Sundies park them on opposite sides of base hidden in buildings, this gives you 3 spawns and defend each one like its the alamo. Forward Defenses don't just defend in the facility have people defending the terrain outside so that they have to push you into the facility first. I prefer these mechanics over me camping a tunnel to keep them down there like in PS1 that shiat was boring.

[Dagron]

I'm not sure what would be a good solution to the spawn camping situation that's going on, but this dismissive attitude some people seem to have towards it doesn't solve anything.

Some people don't see a problem with just quitting and spawning elsewhere, but losing a territory because you can't get out of a spawn room isn't fun and quitting isn't a tactic. There should be something you can do other than just say "meh, we will take the base back later".

Others think if you're being spawn camped then you lost the base before that happened, but the problem isn't about when you lost control of the base, the problem is keeping the fight interesting until the last minute after the defenders have already lost a lot of ground. They should be able to make a decision, whether to fall back and regroup or to keep fighting to try a desperate recovery, but this decision shouldn't be made for them the minute the vehicle barricades fall, that's no fun.

By encouraging people to keep fighting to the end, there is a better chance that when someone sees a hotspot on the map, they can drop there without fear of wasting the instant action in a place where they'll make no difference and will just have to find somewhere else to fight.

As for the suggestion of setting up a sundie hidden somewhere in the base, it's an interesting idea but very hard to accomplish because there aren't many places to hide it where they'd be somewhat protected from tanks and airships (and i mean protected, not completely safe), and those few places are usually right where the enemy has already taken over and is currently squatting while they wait for the base to flip (right under the control point). Hell, chances are they already have their own sundie deployed there... maybe there should be many more places suitable to deploy a sundie in big bases, so people would have to look for it instead of just swarming the one place where they know it is.

[Fear The Amish]

Originally Posted by Dagron

I'm not sure what would be a good solution to the spawn camping situation that's going on, but this dismissive attitude some people seem to have towards it doesn't solve anything.

Some people don't see a problem with just quitting and spawning elsewhere, but losing a territory because you can't get out of a spawn room isn't fun and quitting isn't a tactic. There should be something you can do other than just say "meh, we will take the base back later".

Others think if you're being spawn camped then you lost the base before that happened, but the problem isn't about when you lost control of the base, the problem is keeping the fight interesting until the last minute after the defenders have already lost a lot of ground. They should be able to make a decision, whether to fall back and regroup or to keep fighting to try a desperate recovery, but this decision shouldn't be made for them the minute the vehicle barricades fall, that's no fun.

By encouraging people to keep fighting to the end, there is a better chance that when someone sees a hotspot on the map, they can drop there without fear of wasting the instant action in a place where they'll make no difference and will just have to find somewhere else to fight.

As for the suggestion of setting up a sundie hidden somewhere in the base, it's an interesting idea but very hard to accomplish because there aren't many places to hide it where they'd be somewhat protected from tanks and airships (and i mean protected, not completely safe), and those few places are usually right where the enemy has already taken over and is currently squatting while they wait for the base to flip (right under the control point). Hell, chances are they already have their own sundie deployed there... maybe there should be many more places suitable to deploy a sundie in big bases, so people would have to look for it instead of just swarming the one place where they know it is.

the problem with the Sundies is you took 1 piece instead of the whole pie. If your forces are fighting in the terrain around the base and start to be pushed you pull the sundies and hide them, A few choice places are between buildings are against them or hidden behind a hill. So that you DON'T lose the base and get spawn camped.

[Sledgecrushr]

If your defending forces have been wiped out and your only spawn area has been surrounded by a force strong enough to keep you contained then you have lost the fight. Sure your still spawning and running outside and dying in a hailstorm of bullets but this fight barring a last minute counter attack from outside forces is done with.

[SixShooter]

Originally Posted by Babyfark McGeez

The only positive example here is the biolab, where the spawn is inside the actual base. In amp stations and tech plants there is usually an ams-sunderer in the main area, for a reason; Because that is where the spawnroom should be...

I agree with you for the most part except on a couple points.

The teleporter in the Tech Plant spawn room takes you directly inside the main base and works great for defending when you might want to pop back over to the spawn room to resupply grenades or C4 or whatever. That one only get's camped if the main building is overrun.

At least the Amp Station spawn is located within the walls and placed in such a way to not get camped by tanks. The only time this one gets camped is if the courtyard is overrun. I actually prefer how the spawn used to be located behind the main building providing more cover and better access to the main building but the way it is currently gives faster access to defend the main gates.

Outposts (excluding towers) are mostly a joke which is why we really need Jammers/EMP to be able to push out from the spawns. There are exceptions here including TI Alloys where the spawn is in a fairly defensable position while only having 1 door to exit through. Defenders are able to hold that area pretty well despite spawining in a shack at the edge of the base.

I definitly miss the underground spawns with more options to push out from and hopefully they will make a return but even those got camped all the time. Keep in mind that this stuff is not set in stone even after launch so hopefully if enough people want it to change then in can be changed.

[PredatorFour]

I got an idea that might help the spawn camp situation without redesigning the game environment.

How about the defenders can fire out of their shielded spawns so they can push back the enemy campers. The attackers wouldn`t be able to shoot through the spawn shield but defenders would be able too.

[Saintlycow]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

I got an idea that might help the spawn camp situation without redesigning the game environment.

How about the defenders can fire out of their shielded spawns so they can push back the enemy campers. The attackers wouldn`t be able to shoot through the spawn shield but defenders would be able too.

They can already, its just that the doorway is so small that you get friendly fire, and the enemy can camp just outside of your view, forcing you to exit the spawn

[james]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

I got an idea that might help the spawn camp situation without redesigning the game environment.

How about the defenders can fire out of their shielded spawns so they can push back the enemy campers. The attackers wouldn`t be able to shoot through the spawn shield but defenders would be able too.

They already can do that to my knowledge, but it still wouldn't fix it when you have 200 guys chilling outside, gl with that.

A simple solution would be if the attackers hold all points for lets say 1 min, the spawns for the defenders would be disabled, thats basically how it is now. It just takes away from sitting on a span door

[Ghoest9]

When you are spawn camped - YOU HAVE LOST.

Its not a 'issue" with the game - its only an "issue" that you arent accepting that YOU HAVE LOST.

Maybe you would be happy if instead of having facts on the ground demonstrate that the fight is over in stead the devs put a big flashing message on your screen that says
YOU HAVE LOST

[Babyfark McGeez]

And another one not getting what the actual issue is. Welcome sire, you are not alone.

[Beerbeer]

I agree, vehicle spawn camping is a bit ridiculous and not fun at all.

I thought about this more and there's really no easy solution, however here are my thoughts:

Outposts:
1. Shuffle the spawn locations at outposts, moving them more into the core of the base, coupled with more buildings around it preventing vehicle access or Los to the doors, while also moving the capture point to the core of the base, away from vehicles OR
2. Add a small vehicle-proof wall around the spawn location (with infantry-only accessible stairs) OR the entire base, ensuring (or minimizing) vehicle Los to the doors.

Tower:
1. Completely enclose the floor with the capture point AND interior spawn floor from the outside, no wall jumpers or tank spam.

Tech:
1. Create a third floor in the main building that will serve as a spawn location, with exits that lead both down to the second floor and capture point and to the roof. Fairly simple change.

Amp:
1. Create a spawn room in the center of the main building, possibly on another floor. Add one way tube teleports to the top of two outer towers on opposite ends of the base.

Bio: no change

Bases won't be changing hands so much. A concerted effort will be needed to take stuff over instead of just camping doors with tanks. I think more people would be inclined to defend since they will know they at least can leave the spawn room to put up a fight.

[Fear The Amish]

Originally Posted by Babyfark McGeez

And another one not getting what the actual issue is. Welcome sire, you are not alone.

see my problem is if the spawn is underground and connected by tunnels they would just camp that. I think its ridiculous what i think you really want is a free pass to constantly harras the attacking force even if you have lost that is just silly.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by Dagron

Some people don't see a problem with just quitting and spawning elsewhere, but losing a territory because you can't get out of a spawn room isn't fun and quitting isn't a tactic. There should be something you can do other than just say "meh, we will take the base back later".

Quitting IS a tactic, one that must never be forgotten. To "quit" a battle is called making a retreat and can/has saved more lives and won more wars than you will ever know. Not every fight needs to be a Thermopylae pass. To see each fight as you MUST hold that ground or lose it all will cost you a war. Never toss away a life. Retreat, rearm, and regroup. Make them SUFFER for taking what is yours.

Take the Crown for example. It's so easy to defend that the defenders often stay there LONG after it is cut off and are beaten to a pulp over hours. That always leads to that faction losing damn near everything and getting pushed back to the WG. One must learn to see when a battle is lost before hope is lost or bare the pain of losing everything.

[Ghoest9]

This is like lemmings complaining the the cliffs are too high and the water is too cold.

[Babyfark McGeez]

Originally Posted by Fear The Amish

see my problem is if the spawn is underground and connected by tunnels they would just camp that. I think its ridiculous what i think you really want is a free pass to constantly harras the attacking force even if you have lost that is just silly.

No, that is not what i'm on about. But your comment actually made me realize there are two points to this problem (Also i realized it is more an issue in the outposts than the actual big bases, so i will refer to those in the following paragraph):

If you have a spawnroom like in most outposts with a maximum of two exits that also sits outside where tanks can continously fire at it, it's simply too easy to camp these doors to effectively end any resistance (also: ++Certs).
By increasing the numbers of exits (or better: possible wayouts, since simply adding more doorframes to the huts won't cut it) you automatically decrease the number of people who can camp these exits. That way people would concentrate more on keeping the actual objectives instead of simply trying to shut down the resistance via spawncamping.
Camping 6 exits that are not in the same building is harder than to camp 2 in one building. Result: More opportunities to actually retake that outpost for the defenders. Attackers focus on the actual objective and camp there instead of the spawn. Bottom-line: More varied action for everyone.

Now for the second point. This is being mentioned all the time and it was just now that it hit me: When exactly is a base "lost"? What is the indicator for that? Game-mechanic wise it is the point when the base actually "flips", all the time before it is not technically "lost".
I'm fully aware that bases are usually "lost" way before that and nobody in his right mind would spawn in a base close to being flipped. But still, that moment where it gets impossible to resecure a base, that moment of the actual defeat is not in any way or shape accounted for in the game mechanics. You can only make an educated guess as to when the base is "lost". That means not the hard-coded feature of the base territory going to the attackers is the defining moment of the battle, but a semi-consensual agreement of the defenders that this place cannot be defended anymore.
The logical thing to do here would be to make it so that the attackers can remove the spawnpoint for the defenders. That would be a clear point of "base is lost". Some bases even have spawn gens, but it's either harder to destroy them than to simply spawncamp instead, or there are other reasons for people not having these as prime targets (*cough* certs *cough*).

This is going to be a major frustration especially with new players. One usually assumes that if there is a spawnpoint you can (still) do something there, because "why would i be able to spawn at that base when it's allready lost?" (actual citation from an anonymous PS2-player).
So don't worry about me hating the cheapness of spawncamping, but a bit concern about the thousands of new players experiencing spawncamping due to bad game design should be appropriate. New players will have to face enough crap allready, each possible last nail in the coffin removed would be a good thing.

Damn. what a wall of text. But i felt i should really get this point across. And the next one who writes "spawn elsewhere" is getting this as pm (not aimed at you amish, hehe).