The "Umph" of Combat

ArmedZealot · 2012-01-04, 10:35 PM

Watch the trailer

Notice anything missing? Notice how something just feels off? Something that should just happen in a shooter game that is so integral these days that you might not even notice that is gone. Something missing that leaves you with this weird taste like milk you don't know is spoiled or not yet?

Here watch these. (not all the way, just for 30 seconds or so, skip around a bit, wadsworth constant, music etc.)

Still don't see it?

Despite all the gunfire and shooting happening in the first trailer, no one is getting shot. No one is shooting anyone, not even getting shot themselves. They are just shooting. Even in the scene with the Magrider zoomed in the shot goes above. Makes sense that they avoid showing it when you look at Planetside.

Let's face it, Planetside combat felt stale really. And it's not really hard to say why. Everything about it is as ancient as Doom. Killing someone just plays a death animation. This obnoxious cone of fire thing appears on the screen when you get a hit and is the only thing letting you know that you connected. Compare it to the original halo which released 2 years before it.

Halo, when you get a hit the enemy is knocked back, the shields flicker in the direction of ricochet, and liberal amounts of blood let you know that you are doing damage.You knew you got a hit even without the u.i telling you. Combat in Halo was satisfying and felt solid. You felt good when you hit the enemy.

Counter strike and Tribes have other elements that were satisfying as well. Things that let you know that you are an advanced player when you do them often, such as headshots and blueplates. Things that make you go

I'm interested in how Planetside 2 will make itself into a modern shooter by making it feel solid. If I melee someone will it stagger them? Will they be knocked in the direction of the blow? if I shoot them with a shotgun will they be staggered by it? What visual cues excluding the user interface will tell me the tactical information of an opponent?

I realize the game is in it's infancy, but the feedback of doing damage and taking it is the most integral part of a shooter there is. I'd really like to emphasize that if you have good mechanics for both, you will have an enjoyable game even including balance issues and such, because these mechanics determine how FUN a shooter is. It's infancy is where these need to nurtured and polished.

Vash02 · 2012-01-04, 10:43 PM

Well in the new gameplay footage it showed a mossie spiralling out of control in flames, better than the exploding into nothing of PS1.

Death2All · 2012-01-04, 10:49 PM

There was no feedback when you shot someone in PS?

Their body would jerk and they'd yell out in pain. If you killed somebody they would scream out as they die and then fall over on the ground.

Sure, PS combat is definitely clunky, slow and awkward by today's standards but I still found it to be one of the most enjoyable ones.

There wasn't as much of and emphasis on "HOLY SHIT YOU JUST GOT A HEADSHOT YOU'RE A BADASS!" in PS. It was more focused on the size and overall scale of the game. In fact, I really hope they keep that out of the game. They confirmed that something similar to killstreaks will be in the game, hopefully it's nothing too obnoxious.

SERGEANT MASTER SERGEANT SERGEANT SHOOTER PERSON OF THE FIRST SERGEANT

Baneblade · 2012-01-05, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by DeeTwoEh

There was no feedback when you shot someone in PS?

Don't forget the /tell hate

ArmedZealot · 2012-01-05, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by DeeTwoEh

There was no feedback when you shot someone in PS?

Their body would jerk and they'd yell out in pain. If you killed somebody they would scream out as they die and then fall over on the ground.

I didn't say that there was no feedback just said it was ancient as Doom, which it is. Get hit, play wounded animation, play predefined scream #4, get hit again, play predefined scream #4, play swooning death animation. Repeat that for the next 30 kills or ad nauseum.

Is that bad for one of the first and most popular games of it's kind? No. Is it bad for it's prodigal son?

Graywolves · 2012-01-05, 04:53 AM

Halo released shortly before it but Planetside had been in development since the 90's....

Besides...Flashiness in my screen doesn't immerse me, just makes me annoyed as fuck that my tool for competing against other players is unreliable because when I get hit or shoot it gets eratic, which leads to just ignoring it. Kind of like how SWTOR has many different melee animations and cool effects but you spend most of your time looking at the UI bars.

I don't know no one else did but I used to actually get scared of dieing in planetside when I first played. I'd be up against a tree and have bullets slamming into it and myself everytime I peaked out.

Things that are put in just to look cool are only distracting and eventually might as well have never been there at all.

-edit-
but this looks fucking awesome

Redshift · 2012-01-05, 08:48 AM

Well don't forget that HaloCE was 16 players on 4 machines over LAN only, it's hardly surprising PS didn't do similar animations when we're talking hundreds on hundreds over 56k modems

FoxBait · 2012-01-04, 11:02 PM

If you watch the trailer just released for The9's site, you can see shield flare, infantry death animations, and vehicle death animations.

I feel like that exactly what you're talking about.

ArmedZealot · 2012-01-04, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by FoxBait

If you watch the trailer just released for The9's site, you can see shield flare, infantry death animations, and vehicle death animations.

I feel like that exactly what you're talking about.

See that's just the thing, they are animations. Not only that but they seem to be hidden. The skeeter falls from behind a building. The soldier that dies falls from behind the rifle. But it's progress from the dramatic "fall on the side, wacky flailing inflatable tube man" animation from Planetside. Hopefully they can get get more animations in for more variety. I would prefer some rag doll though. They mentioned that PhysX would be used didn't they? On what is the question.

SKYeXile · 2012-01-04, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

See that's just the thing, they are animations. Not only that but they seem to be hidden. The skeeter falls from behind a building. The soldier that dies falls from behind the rifle. But it's progress from the dramatic "fall on the side, wacky flailing inflatable tube man" animation from Planetside. Hopefully they can get get more animations in for more variety. I would prefer some rag doll though. They mentioned that PhysX would be used didn't they? On what is the question.

Vehicle and aircraft physics.

ArmedZealot · 2012-01-04, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

Vehicle and aircraft physics.

Why can vehicle and aircraft physics be processed by onboard PhysX and ragdoll can't?

FoxBait · 2012-01-05, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

See that's just the thing, they are animations. Not only that but they seem to be hidden. The skeeter falls from behind a building. The soldier that dies falls from behind the rifle. But it's progress from the dramatic "fall on the side, wacky flailing inflatable tube man" animation from Planetside. Hopefully they can get get more animations in for more variety. I would prefer some rag doll though. They mentioned that PhysX would be used didn't they? On what is the question.

I've watched Morto's slow-mo video a few time now and I believe that the death animations are either ragdoll or very good animations. To clarify, there are two soldiers who die during the tower fight, one behind the rifle and one in open view.

Also, notice the blood spray from the soldiers.

Later, when the solder is shooting up at the enemies on the ledge, an explosion rocks the screen. We don't see any staggering or push-back, but there is a distinct camera shake that follows the nearby explosion.

Enhanced death animations, physics governed vehicles (as stated earlier), blood spray, shield flare, and explosion screen shake all seem to point the the "umph" of combat you described.

Now, all I'm trying to do here is point out some things in the video that you may have missed and relate them to the things you're looking for. When it comes down to it, neither of us (or any non-dev on the forums) has any idea how the game will feel when we get our hands on it. Video footage comes close to showing us how it will "feel," but part of the umph will come from how the game reacts to our mouse and keyboard actions.

ArmedZealot · 2012-01-05, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by FoxBait

I've watched Morto's slow-mo video a few time now and I believe that the death animations are either ragdoll or very good animations. To clarify, there are two soldiers who die during the tower fight, one behind the rifle and one in open view.

I don't see that. The animations are the same, but triggered at different intervals. First the right soldier then the left. Both soldiers raise their arms up, fall to the right, and then face down in the dirt. Its a good animation, and there doesn't seem to be any clipping.

If they could add a bit more for where they last took damage. As in getting it head on they would fall on their back, or hit from the back they would fall face first etc. it would look much more professional and polished, that's what halo did and then put ragdoll when the corpse was already on the ground.

Originally Posted by FoxBait

Also, notice the blood spray from the soldiers.

It looks like a place holder effect, which is good news. It shows that it's possible and they can improve on it.

Same goes for the shields. I feel like this could be a really good way to add more distinguishing characteristics between soldiers. The NC could have a bubble shield like the MAX did in PS. Give it a gold or blue glow with a lensing effect and it'd be bad ass. Give the Vanu the current flash but make it a really obnoxious neon purple. The TR could have a blocky Dune shield belt effect but red and there you go. This gives good information as to whom you are shooting at without having to actually kill them and see them on the killspam. It'd be good for the long range combat, or night battles.

Originally Posted by FoxBait

Later, when the solder is shooting up at the enemies on the ledge, an explosion rocks the screen. We don't see any staggering or push-back, but there is a distinct camera shake that follows the nearby explosion.

The explosions are the best thing they have so far. They are really visceral and intense. But you are right, no staggering or push back. It'd be cool if they would add a little more knockback when the tanks fire, and maybe some dust flying up around the vehicle. watch the area around the tanks in this video. (mute it)

It would really help with the more earthy style that the game seems to be trying to accomplish. It would also give the tanks a real sense of power that they seemed to lack in Planetside. When a vehicle gets hit it should get rocked a bit too. Especially if it wasn't moving before hand.

Originally Posted by FoxBait

Now, all I'm trying to do here is point out some things in the video that you may have missed and relate them to the things you're looking for. When it comes down to it, neither of us (or any non-dev on the forums) has any idea how the game will feel when we get our hands on it. Video footage comes close to showing us how it will "feel," but part of the umph will come from how the game reacts to our mouse and keyboard actions.

You're right. To be honest I'll get the game and buy as much as I can justify within the first couple weeks of release. I mean it's Planetside you can't not love it. But what makes Planetside unique is it's atmosphere and setting. Planetside 2 is in a good position to capitalize on it. Bringing in a ton of new players if they do it right and keep the game alive for that much longer. It seems like most of the "umph" I'm talking about is being worked on right now, so I feel like now would be the best time to give my feedback.

SKYeXile · 2012-01-04, 11:32 PM

Why are you posting a video of the original planetside?

we saw in todays video you get shields flashing when a player is hit, and anyway a hit indicator on screen is pretty standard in every modern shooter these days, it wouldn't feel right without it. you wont be knocking people back though, it wont be possible on an MMO engine. this isnot some arena shooter where everything fine and dandy on 30mis ping connected to their ISP's locally hosted servers, this is an MMO with centrally located servers, knock back wont be possible and i think you will find ragdoll is out of the question too.

ArmedZealot · 2012-01-04, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

Why are you posting a video of the original planetside?

For the posters here that don't sub currently but want to remember what it was like? Should I remove it?

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

we saw in todays video you get shields flashing when a player is hit, and anyway a hit indicator on screen is pretty standard in every modern shooter these days, it wouldn't feel right without it. you wont be knocking people back though, it wont be possible on an MMO engine. this isnot some arena shooter where everything fine and dandy on 30mis ping connected to their ISP's locally hosted servers, this is an MMO with centrally located servers, knock back wont be possible and i think you will find ragdoll is out of the question too.

I think anyone that played the original would know that the MMO model makes it limited. But that shouldn't be used as an excuse a decade later for clunky combat. I realize it must be market speech, but Higby promised to set the bar for MMOFPS's to come. Shouldn't they be able show it with good polished combat?