Planetside 2 Needs Prone

[TheInferno]

Deleted

[Revanmug]

Originally Posted by basti

Lets make a list here. You pro prone folks have 24 hours to give proper arguments against the points made on the list. go!


1. Cloakers and PRone. Imagine a Infiltrator going up to a good spot, proning and cloaking. He sits there cloaked, shoots, and cloaks again. There is literally nothing you can do against him, as he got a extremly low profile...

How did you plan on Killing an infiltrator going up to a good spot, crouching and cloaking anyway? Do you really think people are going to stand in the open and snipe?! Prone or crouch, any people with a brain with place himself so only his head pop out.

Depending on the mechanic of sniper (we heard there will be a hold breath) and would be proning , going on your belly could be the most stupid thing as the player would be a sitting duck with no mobility compare to crouch. Prone doesn't change the fact that if only your head is visible, any hit is a certain HS and leave the sniper no possibility to pack up and go. I know BF comparaison are annoying but alot of mechanic seems quite close of it and IF they are close and IF prone is in... Enjoy proning on your mountain hill. Counter sniping is always easier on immobile/no mobility target. And we are not even putting vehicule in that.

Originally Posted by basti

2. Medics/engis and Prone. They simply chill behind, absolutly save from direct fire, and heal the guys up front.

I would just point out that you could possibly already do that with crouch. Hell even standing up if we factor structure corners in this. Prone would simply increase the number of places.

I will go with Beta on that. Why? Because I have very curious on how large/deadly AoE weapon are. Rocket launcher, grenade, tank round et aircraft can make this tactic completly not working.

It could also be OMGWTFBROKENQQ and you would have a point.

Originally Posted by basti

3. Light assault and Prone: Would completly deny them the use of jumpjets, making the whole thing a rather nasty tradeoff. Mobolity is key for them, making prone absolutly useless for Light assault.

I don't see the problem or what you mean. Are you against tradeoff? If a light infantry go prone, yeah, he shouldn't be able to jet pack until he is standing. The LA has more possibility on how to avoid fire but can't use them both at the same time. What's wrong with that? Sorry if I missunderstand.

Originally Posted by basti

4. Defending and prone: Have fun trying to break a line of people just proning everywhere. Its almost impssible.

How? Did you saw that in PS? Oh wait, there wasn't any prone in that game. In BF3 or CoD? I can say the opposite and we would be at the back at the starting point. We have 20 page of that exact bickering already... Not your brightest point...

Originally Posted by basti

5. The zerg and prone: In planetside, heck, no, in EVERY game you have the problem that people are afraid of dying. Instead of Rushing, they just chill and wait around the corner. With prone, they have even less reason to move, as they have a smaller chance of killing a dude if they hop around the corner due to low profile, have more enemys shooting at them as prone allows 2 people behind one another to fire at you, and on top of that even gives a damn good reason not to move at all in the first place. The zerg would be proning EVERYWHERE, making Infantary engagments the most boring expirience ever.

This is just a copy paste of your awesome number 4. What the eck should I say? Nothing I could say would change your stand when it is nothing but a rambling of opinion. Yes there are people that like camping. You are right! So what? Why care? Staying immobile is the most stupid thing when we have over 100 on each side shooting each other with gun/tank and aircraft. Maybe you mean inside base infantry only? Well, I fell like grenade and max should do the job because that's where they should excel. Once more... Beta so I can see and feel how it works before standing or changing my opinion.

BF3 has a much faster experience making proning player usually a very easy target if you have any kind of awereness and experience on the few one pony trick hiding spot that you learn to remember. PS was different combat but guess what, there wasn't any prone in PS so nobody can talk from experience and even less make conclusion on a game that nobody has play.

Originally Posted by basti

Try to give arguments against these. I know you wont...

I know that I don't care about prone, at all, as long as the game is amazing as it look like. But I can tell you this. Most people complaning just talk from a few experience with some baddies that went a dark corner and wait. Prone or not, the same baddies will still be there, in their dark corner.

Usually, the best use of prone is largely ignored and it's to avoid being hit in a firefight. get shot at? hit the deck beind the small concret wall when get ready to fire back at them back and forth.

Again, My opinion will depend on the environment and how is crouch. If crouch is low enough to hide you completly when needed, then you don't need prone. But really, I have some doubt.

/END wallOfText

[mirwalk]

Originally Posted by Stew

yes actually i have one



http://youtu.be/x0Gwu9Ssk8E?t=26m45s

Watched the whole video for anyone saying a utility grenade doesn't cost resources. No where in the video was that mentioned. So as far as I have seen ALL grenades cost resources.

Right before they started speaking about grenades he was talking about the medic's AOE heal and possible AOE revive abilities. Not grenades. They currently have a revive grenade but as seen in the stream the medic has an AOE heal ability like the cloak or jump jets.

[Retaliation]

Originally Posted by Stew

Where di you take thats Prone = stationary target ?

iam a runner and gunner no way nears a non mooving players and i use prone to rush properly even more been prone is for a few secons time to reload to get a cover use terrain

why you guys keep saying the same thing who is no where near the truth if you dont use prone while rushing objective or base you probably die a way more than your suposed to

Prone do not mean sit on the ground and camp its getting ridicoulous

Even if you move, shoot, and retain full ability to maneuver, you're still going to be moving far slower than someone running. I don't know about you, but years of playing games where I have to both lead and track a players movements has given me the ability to pretty much instantly track a slow moving player's head. From my perspective even prone moving isn't going to be able to stop me from getting headshots.

[basti]

Thing is: I have seen what happens if a organised group starts going en masse into a game with prone. IN BF1942, there was this one match on a 64 players server. We had about 20 of us on TS, the enemy had about 14 on TS. Ignoring the randoms completly, we came into the situation where they held a point by having people prone all over the place. We went in there on foot, all 25, and got shot to shreds as we didnt knew they where there. We tried again, now knowing whats going on, and got a few, but also died completly again. Tried using air and tanks to keep em busy, but didnt got any of those, and ended up fighting with the randoms. So we went to our randoms, massed them up, and charged in there with 30 of us while the enemy randoms just took a point from us. Our randoms went into the middle as a diversion and got shot to pieces, while us 20 went around, taking them one by one. We got 5 before we were all dead.

For the rest of the match, we tried to get them out of there, and simply didnt manage to. They did not move, they simply stayed the entire time where they where, covering each other.

Would it be any different without prone? Yes, because its much more likley to hit someone on long range if he is only crouching.


Just trust me, ive been playing FPS since Doom itself. Prone is just as quick kniving something that does not really improve a game. Both once came into FPS games simply because they could put them in there, and never left again because other devs saw those featers as something gamers want, while its mostly not the case. Yet, Prone is absolutly fine in a Low TTK game like COD or BF3, but the higher the TTK is, the more unbalanced prone is. It simply should not be in PS2, as it would annoy more than it would improve the game.


Actually, yes. Someone tell me how exactly prone improved the BF series, or any other game. Tell me the exact reason why you folks want prone.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by basti

Thing is: I have seen what happens if a organised group starts going en masse into a game with prone. IN BF1942, there was this one match on a 64 players server. We had about 20 of us on TS, the enemy had about 14 on TS. Ignoring the randoms completly, we came into the situation where they held a point by having people prone all over the place. We went in there on foot, all 25, and got shot to shreds as we didnt knew they where there. We tried again, now knowing whats going on, and got a few, but also died completly again. Tried using air and tanks to keep em busy, but didnt got any of those, and ended up fighting with the randoms. So we went to our randoms, massed them up, and charged in there with 30 of us while the enemy randoms just took a point from us. Our randoms went into the middle as a diversion and got shot to pieces, while us 20 went around, taking them one by one. We got 5 before we were all dead.

For the rest of the match, we tried to get them out of there, and simply didnt manage to. They did not move, they simply stayed the entire time where they where, covering each other.

Would it be any different without prone? Yes, because its much more likley to hit someone on long range if he is only crouching.


Just trust me, ive been playing FPS since Doom itself. Prone is just as quick kniving something that does not really improve a game. Both once came into FPS games simply because they could put them in there, and never left again because other devs saw those featers as something gamers want, while its mostly not the case. Yet, Prone is absolutly fine in a Low TTK game like COD or BF3, but the higher the TTK is, the more unbalanced prone is. It simply should not be in PS2, as it would annoy more than it would improve the game.


Actually, yes. Someone tell me how exactly prone improved the BF series, or any other game. Tell me the exact reason why you folks want prone.

Your reasoning is just as bad as Stews is.

"Prone won't work, because I have seen it not work in another game!"
vs.
"Prone works, because I have seen it work in another game."

Both your arguements are pretty much just your opinions.

If, like Clegg said, the devs put in prone, then and ONLY then can you both "prove" your arguements.

Before that, you can't.

[PsychoXR-20]

Originally Posted by Stew

Where di you take thats Prone = stationary target ?

iam a runner and gunner no way nears a non mooving players and i use prone to rush properly even more been prone is for a few secons time to reload to get a cover use terrain

why you guys keep saying the same thing who is no where near the truth if you dont use prone while rushing objective or base you probably die a way more than your suposed to

Prone do not mean sit on the ground and camp its getting ridicoulous

This is exactly why prone should not be in this game. What you are calling tactics are just super lame gameplay. Players running, dolphin diving, running dolphin diving. It's shit gameplay in CoD, it's shit gameplay in Battlefield and it would be shit gameplay in PlanetSide.

I'll tell you what. Let's make prone a three second "deply" and a three second recovery (to simiulate getting down, and getting up). You must remain stationary to go prone. You move at a pace that would make a snail sleepy and you have a 10, maybe 15 degree firing arc (since your grasp on the English language appears lacking that means you can look roughly 10 degrees to your left, 10 degrees to your right, 10 degrees up and 10 degrees down).

Anything other than this and all you are doing in encouraging the above mentioned shit gameplay that we see players "utlize" in CoD and Battlefield.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

If, like Clegg said, the devs put in prone, then and ONLY then can you both "prove" your arguements.

Before that, you can't.

Wait, I've heard this argument before...

[Verruna]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

Your reasoning is just as bad as Stews is.

"Prone won't work, because I have seen it not work in another game!"
vs.
"Prone works, because I have seen it work in another game."

Both your arguements are pretty much just your opinions.

If, like Clegg said, the devs put in prone, then and ONLY then can you both "prove" your arguements.

Before that, you can't.

Counter-prone opinions carry much heavier cons than pro-prone opinions carry heavy benefit or even purpose. Obviously got to wait till beta until anything gets done regardless.

[mirwalk]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Wait, I've heard this argument before...

Pelosi: "We Have to Pass the Bill So That You Can Find Out What Is In It" - YouTube

that is just ouch....

Kinda why I said earlier in the thread. Once prone exists in game it will be like pulling teeth to get rid of it. The mechanic would have to near break the game to get rid of it. If it just makes the game a little worse and cause more frustration then joy, it will remain since a vocal minority will demand it.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by mirwalk

Once prone exists in game it will be like pulling teeth to get rid of it. The mechanic would have to near break the game to get rid of it. If it just makes the game a little worse and cause more frustration then joy, it will remain since a vocal minority will demand it.

Just look to BFRs for that one. They added those in, broke the game, took a long time to make them reasonably balanced, and they are still in there and have fundamentally changed PlanetSide for the worse.

Prone would have a similar fundamental change to PlanetSide gameplay and as most people agree, it won't be for the betterment of the game.

From what I see it's about five vocal people who are on the must-have-prone crusade. Poll shows it isn't what a super majority of players want.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Wait, I've heard this argument before...

Pelosi: "We Have to Pass the Bill So That You Can Find Out What Is In It" - YouTube

So apparently both parties are right then?

Or are both wrong?

Did you play PS2 with prone yet?

Do tell if it works or not.

[Khrusky]

Originally Posted by Retaliation

Na I was just trying to come up with a simpler way of saying prone favoring posters without it being condescending.

Ironically saying prone wouldn't be useful in the type of gameplay planetside embodies is close to what I'm trying to get at. Movement is king, and the moment you stop you're going to get bullets lodged in your skull. For prone to be useful you would have to provide more than usual benefits to it. I -and probably many others- am not comfortable with trying out prone when it doesn't seem compatible with the way I hope the game is going to be played (moderate arcade).

There is also a really subtle and quite easy to miss point about prone promoting standing still when they're going to stand still anyway. If made to be useful, prone just gives them advantages they shouldn't have in a game of movement. It's essentially unintentional exploiting of a mechanic that is otherwise pretty solid. RTS players hate base turtles for the same reason because you're either going to break them hard after a disproportionate time investment, or they'll win despite being completely passive until their push at the end. It's not so much the fact that they're defending that makes people angry, but that they're obstructive/winning despite putting forth far less effort. In the case of RTS it's because base defenses can't move so they're given high returns on investment compared to normal units. Unless you can prevent people from delaying the inevitable (or actually winning) despite not knowing what they're doing, it's just going to cause more problems than it solves.

P.S. nonsense like dolphin diving is exactly the kind of thing that would allow prone to be a viable move yet remain fairly weak.
P.P.S. I have no idea how much this will make sense to others.

It feels like we're reaching the heart of the issue here as I'm finding these points more and more valid as we progress. I am tired though so I will respond tomorrow, If you can bear to continue this drawn-out affair.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

So apparently both parties are right then?

Or are both wrong?

Did you play PS2 with prone yet?

Do tell if it works or not.

I'm gifted with the ability to understand the impact of most things without having to see them implemented first. It's why I get paid the big bucks!

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Malorn

I'm gifted with the ability to understand the impact of things without having to see them implemented first. It's why I get paid the big bucks!

Yeah, thought so.

Maybe you and Stew should team up, you both seem to be really good at this.