Everybody gets to drive everything? WTF?

[Rivenshield]

Maybe I'm just being a reactionary old fart, but this puts me slightly off my feed.

In all modern FPS's anyone can jump into a tank, a chopper, a jet, etc.... but that's for battles that rarely last for more than ten minutes, and then the map resets. In a persistent game like Planetside, I'd kinda like to see us stick with the old system. You get a few free certs to start off with, but you have to make a commitment of sorts. You have to choose whether to spawn or drive a given class of vehicle.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

And on a related note: I have looked, but cannot find, any news on whether or not PS2 will allow us to re-spec our certs. Can we or can't we? or is this another Wait Until Beta issue?

[Kayos]

I don't think we can re-spec certs as they have said there is no need since we can get every cert anyway.

I think we should have to cert for vehicles too.

[Doxy]

You can't respec and to be effective with that vehicle you gotta spec in it.
Each vehicle cost resources to spawn, so you can't spawn them all day long.

[fvdham]

I would assume a medic to be more likely a passenger in a Galaxy or Sunderer than a driver.

[Electrofreak]

Yeah, I'm not too keen on everyone being able to drive everything too, particularly when the driver can be a gunner as well.

I mean, sometimes it was hard to get a full tank column because not everyone was certed in it, but that's why you had specialty outfits.

I'll wait until Beta before I decide if I want to complain about it.

[BillyBob]

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

[SixShooter]

I'm fine with it. More accessability will mean a larger playerbase and realistically, there just aren't all that many vehicles to choose from at launch anyway.

[Electrofreak]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

Your post brings up some excellent points; well written.

[exoteror]

I think having access to all the vehicals is great, Don't you just hate it when someone shouts "everyone pull a reaver" and you need to run to a bio lab waste your respec timer to join the fun.

You can now join in with any fun event, but to be fully effective in the vehical of your choosing you will have cource have to cert into it and buy the extra weapons for the vehical. I think it is a great trade off.

[diLLa]

I think the resource system will make sure not everyone can just spam vehicles all day long.

And certing still makes you specialized in something.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

thoughts

Very well said... Was thinking along the same lines myself...

[Figment]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

I can certainly see where OP is coming from, and being able to just jump into any vehicle and be able to drive or fly it certainly is a considerable step away from how it worked in the original PlanetSide.

However, I imagine I can also see why SOE would go this way with PS2.

Granting immediate use of all vehicles will make the game more accessible from an entry point perspective. It will allow players to very quickly get into the vehicle aspects of the game and figure out if it's something they think is fun and perhaps would like to specialize further in. If there is a vehicle-related role in the game suitable for you, you'll find it quicker and without having to spend certpoints.

Considering the speed with which people get cert points and that they'll never have to make a definite choice yes.


The problem with this argument is that players won't always be beginners and that this facilitates everyone getting the same super heavy setups.

Also, as OP mentioned, this is the way most FPS players are used to when it comes to vehicles in those modern shooters that have them. I think it's safe to say that a rather large number of new PS2 players will crossover from that specific category of games.

Being used to something is no reason to not ever get used to something else that might be more balanced or have other perfectly valid arguments for different design decisions in a different context.

It's always funny how PS2 is refered to as "another game from PS1", but when it's related to other games than PS1, it should all be the same to not alienate players...


...Uh...

From what little we've seen of the certification system in PS2, it seems pretty extensive. This could suggest that even though everyone and anyone could use any given vehicle, certing into it will still make a considerable difference and be something of true worth in terms of gameplay.

This whole argument of having to put specialisation in a class doesn't really hold up, because there's not going to be much difference between a specced and a non-specced player, remember? And over time, people get to have everything AND thus be good at everything...

Short term thinking was what got us over 150 CR5s in the past few days in one command channel, 75% or more of which are incapable of thinking because they reached CR5 too fast thanks to their zergfit and the increase in CEP gain (doubled) that became permanent at some point.

As for "respeccing" the cert points...I don't know. But if they would allow for it then my guess is there would most likely be a cost involved.

I would assume Station Cash or the Pro7 valuta yes.

In short, initial access is wide open (basic use of all vehicles), but most likely it's the cert points you put into the vehicles in question that will turn you into that highly specialized unit which for example your Outfit would need or your personal combat role would demand.

And over time in an overspecialised unit = a generalist.

If that's the case then I'm perfectly ok with it, as long as what you cert into really does matter and makes a considerable difference.

/BB

So you say it's fine that everyone can make a 'considerable difference' in every role over time (though we'll just have to see how considerable), JUST because it's a long way from now? Okay. Hypocritical, but okay.

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Figment

Considering the speed with which people get cert points and that they'll never have to make a definite choice yes.

The problem with this argument is that players won't always be beginners and that this facilitates everyone getting the same super heavy setups.

Being used to something is no reason to not ever get used to something else that might be more balanced or have other perfectly valid arguments for different design decisions in a different context.

It's always funny how PS2 is refered to as "another game from PS1", but when it's related to other games than PS1, it should all be the same to not alienate players...

...Uh...

This whole argument of having to put specialisation in a class doesn't really hold up, because there's not going to be much difference between a specced and a non-specced player, remember? And over time, people get to have everything AND thus be good at everything...

Short term thinking was what got us over 150 CR5s in the past few days in one command channel, 75% or more of which are incapable of thinking because they reached CR5 too fast thanks to their zergfit and the increase in CEP gain (doubled) that became permanent at some point.

I would assume Station Cash or the Pro7 valuta yes.

And over time in an overspecialised unit = a generalist.

So you say it's fine that everyone can make a 'considerable difference' in every role over time (though we'll just have to see how considerable), JUST because it's a long way from now? Okay. Hypocritical, but okay.

You make a lot of assumptions which depend on facts you don't have.

The only things we know at this point, are mere indications based on what SOE devs have said in interviews etc. If anything, they've suggested that the certification point system will be deep, very extensive and allow for a lot of specialization.

They've also said that fully speccing into everything would take years for constant playing. That's not even taking into consideration the regular additions they have said are planned to the certsystem over time.

As for the "there will be no difference between a specced and a non-specced player" speculation (because that's basically all it is at this point), it would first of all completely depend on what you consider to be a valid difference or not.

Again, the devs have stated in interviews that the certification system will offer a lot of specialization and that it will allow you to tailor your gameplay in great detail to your personal preferences...but not in a way as to make the game imbalanced.

This suggests that you're right in that there would be no difference in terms of power or factors that could be considered to cause imbalance, but that it WILL allow for considerable differences in terms of personal gameplay/gamestyle options or when it comes to very specific tasks.

So, what we basically have here, are the comments of the devs explaining how things will work in the game they've made themselves, vs your own completely unfounded outsider speculations on how you think it will ultimately affect the game.

Forgive me if I believe that the devs have a slightly better grip on what's what when it comes to this.

Simple fact remains...not you, me nor anyone else but the devs know enough at this point to make anything but pure speculations about how this will work in detail, let alone any long-term effects it may have on the game.

Now, all I did was speculate as to why SOE would be taking the route they seemingly are with the cert system pertaining to vehicles in PS2. If anyone wants to attack/question that, fine...but when you do, please just keep in mind how little we all know about this in the first place.

Finally, I think the following point might also be worth mentioning when it comes to the cert system:

Even if everyone hypothetically would end up having all the certifications, how likely is it that everyone would be using them in the exact same way all the time?

Any tendencies towards all players using one specific setup for a certain task, may indicate it being overpowered...in which case it's a balance issue which is a completely different matter altogether.

In short, having the same set of equally valid options to select from...doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will pick the exact same one.

/BB

[Figment]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

You make a lot of assumptions which depend on facts you don't have.

Anything I say is based on Higby and other dev quotes. I don't assume anything.

The only things we know at this point, are mere indications based on what SOE devs have said in interviews etc. If anything, they've suggested that the certification point system will be deep, very extensive and allow for a lot of specialization.

Pay better attention: we know more. We even saw samples and we know their intentioned upgrade range difference and you falsely assume we need to research everything to setup the characters the way we want. FULL options takes years. Options in SIDEgrades.

They've also said that fully speccing into everything would take years for constant playing. That's not even taking into consideration the regular additions they have said are planned to the certsystem over time.

And how does that disagree with my mention of us now, 9 years into PS1 having severe issues with br40 and an overdose of cr5s osing everything?

You are a model example of a shortsighted thinker. By postponing the problem a year or more ahead, you pretend the situation won't occur or become commonplace.

And I hope you realise by then you can't take it away from the player anymore, because he would feel stripped of his or her rights.

As for the "there will be no difference between a specced and a non-specced player" speculation (because that's basically all it is at this point), it would first of all completely depend on what you consider to be a valid difference or not.

Which is why I asked you if you thought the 20% difference was enough to call it a specialization that would render them seemingly useless it they do use a role they have access too in a 82,33% of the optimal strength or anywhere in between with a few certs in it.

Again, the devs have stated in interviews that the certification system will offer a lot of specialization and that it will allow you to tailor your gameplay in great detail to your personal preferences...but not in a way as to make the game imbalanced.

Which again is my point: what specialization if you don't get any significant advantage?

You are inconsistent with yourself: one moment you speak of specialization so they can't really be seen as a threat through use of the basic, yet you then continue to say "but they won't be better either". Suiting playstyles is tweaking, not specialising.

So again, what have I said that you don't also say, just that you seem to not understand what you are concluding: make up your mind, is it an advantage that makes the basic dismissable, is it finetuning a class to your liking, or is it like I say, bit of both, but not a HUGE need to do to complete with said class in its basic form?

This suggests that you're right in that there would be no difference in terms of power or factors that could be considered to cause imbalance, but that it WILL allow for considerable differences in terms of personal gameplay/gamestyle options or when it comes to very specific tasks.

So, what we basically have here, are the comments of the devs explaining how things will work in the game they've made themselves, vs your own completely unfounded outsider speculations on how you think it will ultimately affect the game.

So by looking at what the devs said, you conclude I'm right and then call it unfounded? You have any idea what you are saying at this point?

Forgive me if I believe that the devs have a slightly better grip on what's what when it comes to this.

Simple fact remains...not you, me nor anyone else but the devs know enough at this point to make anything but pure speculations about how this will work in detail, let alone any long-term effects it may have on the game.

This is where you are wrong. Plain and simple: we both know eventually you have all the upgrades you want or need. You are the one keeping yourself ignorant of the facts while admitting the facts. That is one hard position to maintain, please enlighten how you can say it will take years, but its never going to be an issue? You presume far too much that tweaking is needed and that people need full specs acquired over years in order to spam all kinds of units and classes at any moment in time even if they are not optimal.

Now, all I did was speculate as to why SOE would be taking the route they seemingly are with the cert system pertaining to vehicles in PS2. If anyone wants to attack/question that, fine...but when you do, please just keep in mind how little we all know about this in the first place.

I love missing-link argumentation. Shame it is the same argument as "god of the gaps". We know enough to have this particular debate, but you will always insist we need to know more.

Finally, I think the following point might also be worth mentioning when it comes to the cert system:

Even if everyone hypothetically would end up having all the certifications, how likely is it that everyone would be using them in the exact same way all the time?

It is about context and the amount of options available to the player.

Having to make a choice and ensure an advantage in one context, but lose options in other contexts. For instance, not being an engineer at all is very different from now and then being an engineer. Big difference if you can or not wield something permanently or after a class change, which as far as I am aware does not require divine intervention.


Engagements in a game like Planetside and PS2 are about what a player can do with one character over time, not in one life. The typical period to check is one assault or defense till its conclusion, though more generally a play session. Players who don't see a problem tend to think in one duel and lack the insights for looking at the bigger longterm picture and the events leading up to and after that engagement.

Does or did he open terms? Change class to heal those you just killed? Did he get to use a big gun and then changed class again at the local term and got to hack faster too? Etc etc.

Any tendencies towards all players using one specific setup for a certain task, may indicate it being overpowered...in which case it's a balance issue which is a completely different matter altogether.

Is it always? And is it? You assume too much and dismiss too easily.

In short, having the same set of equally valid options to select from...doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will pick the exact same one.

/BB

No but then you can't argue your starting point and maintain your position that you need to specialize for years in anything if it is 'all equaly valid'.

[NoDachi]

When I first started hearing details about ps2 I was really put off by the whole class/inventory/cert/vehicle changes, but after playing planetside 1 and watching the e3 streams again I realised I was just being abit of a bitter vet and I can understand and approve of most of the new changes.